[olePigeon]

I was planning on voting for Nader cuz I didn't care too much for either candidate. But now Kerry is looking to remove the restrictions on stem cell research set by Bush. Thank the gods! I'm a HUGE fan of stem cell research, the potential of curing nearly every known disease is too important to be governed by religious crackpots.

[CreepingDeth]

A little more detail please. From embryos? What did he say?

…too important to be governed by religious crackpots.

[zachs]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
A little more detail please. From embryos? What did he say?

He said this:

Come next January, when John Edwards and I are sworn into office, we're going to create a new anniversary, one that will be a cause for celebration."

"We're going to lift the ban on stem cell research," he said.

[CreepingDeth]

Destroy the embryos?

[Zimphire]

And then Kerry is going to put a REAL pot of Gold at EVERY rainbow.

And he is going to make cats and dogs get a long.

And anything else that he thinks might get him voted in.

You know, how the Clinton's came up with that healthcare system they said they would that would take care of us all!

That Health Care promise is what got most of his votes.

Too bad in never came to be eh.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
I was planning on voting for Nader cuz I didn't care too much for either candidate. But now Kerry is looking to remove the restrictions on stem cell research set by Bush. Thank the gods! I'm a HUGE fan of stem cell research, the potential of curing nearly every known disease is too important to be governed by religious crackpots.

[CreepingDeth]

Yeah…
The cloning thread already covered this. Abortion is stupid. Cloning is stupid. Stem Cells from embryos is stupid.

[undotwa]

Below is a post of 100% prejudice but of my opinion:

1. I really dislike Kerry. He is so smirky with that smile he puts on. All American senators have that smile, such a forced and ugly smile which looks like the guy had plastic surgery so he could smile like that.

2. He thinks abortion is wrong yet he believes that there should be choice. To me, personally, that is a worse view if the person believes abortion is alright and pro-choice. Someone like that I tend to question their ethics, because technically in their opinion they are condoning murder.

3. He tries to get the Catholic and Non-religious vote by having contradictory stances. To me he seems as if he has no real agenda to push but only in it for the power.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Below is a post of 100% prejudice but of my opinion:

1. I really dislike Kerry. He is so smirky with that smile he puts on. All American senators have that smile, such a forced and ugly smile which looks like the guy had plastic surgery so he could smile like that.

2. He thinks abortion is wrong yet he believes that there should be choice. To me, personally, that is a worse view if the person believes abortion is alright and pro-choice. Someone like that I tend to question their ethics, because technically in their opinion they are condoning murder.

3. He tries to get the Catholic and Non-religious vote by having contradictory stances. To me he seems as if he has no real agenda to push but only in it for the power.

Did you see him in those bunny pictures? He looked more ridiculous.

[forkies]

Originally posted by undotwa:
2. He thinks abortion is wrong yet he believes that there should be choice. To me, personally, that is a worse view if the person believes abortion is alright and pro-choice. Someone like that I tend to question their ethics, because technically in their opinion they are condoning murder.

i feel the same way about abortion, i doubt i would ever persuade a person to have one done, but i'd also support that person's decision to do it.

pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. see? EZ

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by forkies:
i feel the same way about abortion, i doubt i would ever persuade a person to have one done, but i'd also support that person's decision to do it.

pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. see? EZ

Yeah it does. Giving someone the right to murder people allows for the heinous act to be accomplished. You can't be Pro-choice and anti-abortion.

[forkies]

so does allowing others to practice any religion mean that you also practice, believe, and support said religions?

how does my saying others should be able to have an abortion mean that i personally advocate them?

[xenu]

Good for him. The ban was based purely on ignorance. It also doesn't help that Bush is an idiot.

How do you murder an embryo?

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by xenu:
How do you murder an embryo?

*ding ding ding* Exactly. One can't.

[sanity assassin]

What's Kerry's stance on those important international agreements such as the Kyoto one, and so on?

I hope it's better than Bush's utter destructive actions on backtracking on them.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
*ding ding ding* Exactly. One can't.

exactamente

[voodoo]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
You can't be Pro-choice and anti-abortion.

speak for yourself, cuz I'm pro choice and anti-abortion.

[Millennium]

The fact that we have not even bother to develop a nonlethal technique for harvesting stem cells, when we know that such a technique is possible, is proof that we as a species are not yet mature enough to do this kind of thing. With this, we shall create a slave class, humans created for no other reason than to die for untried research.

Having said this, a lesser evil has clearly emerged for me in this race, and it's not Kerry by any stretch of the imagination.

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by Millennium:

Having said this, a lesser evil has clearly emerged for me in this race, and it's not Kerry by any stretch of the imagination.

Certainly hope it's not Bush. Him and his cohorts are evil personified, IMO.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The fact that we have not even bother to develop a nonlethal technique for harvesting stem cells, when we know that such a technique is possible, is proof that we as a species are not yet mature enough to do this kind of thing. With this, we shall create a slave class, humans created for no other reason than to die for untried research.

Having said this, a lesser evil has clearly emerged for me in this race, and it's not Kerry by any stretch of the imagination.

Ignorance, prejudice, fear and plain awful pseudoscience are keywords that come to mind reading this entry of yours.. Biology is by no stretch of the imagination something you know anything about eh Millennium?

Political issues aside just about every single claim you made was either completely false or just plain paranoid. As a scientist (molecular biologist) myself I harbor quite a resentment for such strong convictions on these matters by people who don't know what they are talking about and more importantly don't want to know. They've made up their minds with their feelings instead of their head. Scepticism is fine and even desired but this kind of Torquemada-like zealotry against the unknown is apalling in the 21st century.

[Powerbook]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Yeah…
The cloning thread already covered this. Abortion is stupid. Cloning is stupid. Stem Cells from embryos is stupid.

A creeping death is stupid too! Ronald Reagan anyone? Huh? Huuuh???

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by xenu:
Good for him. The ban was based purely on ignorance. It also doesn't help that Bush is an idiot.

First of all, the President made a decision based on the entire nation, including the 65% of Americans who did not want to get into the mass-embrionic cloning game.

Secondly, the US under Bush has been funding stem cell research, just not within the US. Secondly, anyone qualified (like an NIH-funded scientist) can purchase any of the 12 federally-registered stem cell lines. These 12 are the ones qualified for federal funding.

There are of course federal restrictions, but there is no ban. Anyone who claims as much is living in pure ignorance.

Read for yourself...

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Powerbook:
A creeping death is stupid too! Ronald Reagan anyone?

Would you have preferred a rapid death, say his being hit by a car at the age of 40? Should John Hinckley Jr. have been successful decades later? Or is 93 a good age to die?

Don't sit here and use Reagan's name as if he could have somehow been cured by Bush declaring open season on all things reproductive. Everyone dies. Most would be satisfied with 93 years on this earth.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Thank the gods! I'm a HUGE fan of stem cell research, the potential of curing nearly every known disease is too important to be governed by religious crackpots.

"Nearly every disease"? Get a grip.

You're going to die someday as well. Accept it.

[PacHead]

I support scientific research, including stem cell research.

Kerry still won't get my vote though, as this issue is not exactly on my top ten list of important issues.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Ignorance, prejudice, fear and plain awful pseudoscience are keywords that come to mind reading this entry of yours.. Biology is by no stretch of the imagination something you know anything about eh Millennium?

He knows enough to realize that WE as a civilization don't know enough about genetics to go monkeying with people yet. To be arrogant enough to think so, just reveals how much of a fool you are.

These idiots who feel we're "so advanced" need to realize we're realistically barely above the "stone knives and bearskins" era of our evolution. When we can actually explain ALL of the functions of every gene (we barely even have them mapped for cripe's sake), THEN we can move forward with human testing.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The fact that we have not even bother to develop a nonlethal technique for harvesting stem cells, when we know that such a technique is possible, is proof that we as a species are not yet mature enough to do this kind of thing. With this, we shall create a slave class, humans created for no other reason than to die for untried research.

Having said this, a lesser evil has clearly emerged for me in this race, and it's not Kerry by any stretch of the imagination.

Your post illustrates exactly why stem cell research needs to go forward.

The problem isn't that we won't "bother to develop a nonlethal technique for harvesting stem cells". It's that basic research needs to continue so the possibility is open that we might find other methods. That's the whole reason to do research. How do you know that by examining embryonic stem cells we won't come across some working knowledge or technique that allows us to use adult stem cells or umbilical stem cells? Or generate stem cells form some other type of cell? There's no guarantee we will but by stopping research you've basically guaranteed that we won't learn more.

What if people in power held your opinion during the dawn of the atomic age? They would've have stopped research when they learned that splitting atoms could be used for weaponry. Then we would've been deprived of all the positive uses of the inner workings of matter. No nuclear energy, or no chemotherapy for cancer patients. How many millions have benefited from chemo other radioactive therapies specifically as a result of atomic research? All of them would probably be dead or condemned to death because of your stance. All because of fear and paranoia.

The same argument could be said for almost every cutting edge technology. Aviation, medicine, transportation, or even fire! All with tremendous benefits but all of them also capable of destruction.

I don't know if you're just incredibly short-sighted or you're being deliberately obtuse to push a particular political agenda, or both. Either way you need to stop believing every inane Hollywood movie you see. Stem cell research is not going to result in harvesting organs from human bodies.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
First of all, the President made a decision based on the entire nation, including the 65% of Americans who did not want to get into the mass-embrionic cloning game.

Secondly, the US under Bush has been funding stem cell research, just not within the US. Secondly, anyone qualified (like an NIH-funded scientist) can purchase any of the 12 federally-registered stem cell lines. These 12 are the ones qualified for federal funding.

There are of course federal restrictions, but there is no ban. Anyone who claims as much is living in pure ignorance.

Read for yourself...

There is no ban but by limiting the number of cell lines that can be used it's essentially stopped most federally funded research. In other words it's stopped nearly all progress in this area because most basic research like this is federally funded through the NIH and through universities.

When he imposed the ban, he stated there were 60+ lines available. The reality is that there were far less than that because of contamination or other medical or political reasons.

In the meantime, hundreds if, not thousands of frozen embryos are being thrown out every week at fertility clinics across the country. Some of which could've been donated to advance stem cell research. His ban efffectively stopped the possibilty of those being used. A complete waste.

Anyway, that's why we recently had this bi-partisan letter sent to the President form Congress:

Fifty-eight senators have signed on to a letter to President George W. Bush calling for an expansion of the federal policy that limits the funding for human embryonic stem cell research.

The letter, which is similar to the one sent to the President in late April by members of the House (C&EN, May 3, page 22), illustrates the bipartisan congressional support for changing the current policy that strictly limits the number of stem cell lines available in federally funded research.

"Scientists have told us that since the policy went into effect more than two years ago, we have learned that the embryonic stem cell lines eligible for federal funding will not be suitable to effectively promote this research," the senators wrote.

The letter also notes the senators' willingness to work with the President to modify the stem cell policy. "We should not close the door on a form of scientific research-nuclear transplantation-that has the potential of curing millions of debilitating and life-threatening diseases," said Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), one of the cosponsors of the letter.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
He knows enough to realize that WE as a civilization don't know enough about genetics to go monkeying with people yet. To be arrogant enough to think so, just reveals how much of a fool you are.

These idiots who feel we're "so advanced" need to realize we're realistically barely above the "stone knives and bearskins" era of our evolution. When we can actually explain ALL of the functions of every gene (we barely even have them mapped for cripe's sake), THEN we can move forward with human testing.

YOU as a civilization don't know enough and you as a person even less it seems. I have quite a lot knowledge of cloning, genetics and stem cell because I make it my business to know and it is my job to know. We *have* mapped all the human genome and are rapidly in the process of deciphering it and stem cell research has helped incredibly to attain that knowledge. You or other laymen simply don't have the knowledge to grasp how important it is to keep such ignorant legislation from detaining this kind of research. It isn't just this issue that bothers me but the precidence it is setting. What cutting edge science will be hampered next by ignorant legislation? The scientific community isn't a pack of blind wild eyed nutty people without morals - morals and ethics are indeed a fundamental part of science and the scientific community and up until now we have been more than capable to oversee that ourselves. No government interferance needed nor desired thankyouverymuch.
Neither you nor Millennium can voice an educated opinion about the subject of stem cell research, I'm sorry but both your posts reveal how fundamentally little you know of the subject - it is great that you show a certain interest on the topic however, it isn't every day normal people try and grasp cutting edge biology, but please who are you kidding when you think you can voice a balanced opinion about the work being done or the work that could be done in the future? All you have is your gut feeling about the subject and frankly that doesn't cut it.

I don't mean to sound condecending in this post, but the opinions expressed by some here are waay out of their league.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

"We're going to lift the ban on stem cell research," he said.

There is no ban on stem cell research in general. The keyword is ‘embryonic’.

Also, is there actually a true ‘ban’ even on embryonic stem cell research, or just that such can’t be taxpayer funded?

[Zimphire]

This whole thread is full of condescending pretentiousness.

[typoon]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
I was planning on voting for Nader cuz I didn't care too much for either candidate. But now Kerry is looking to remove the restrictions on stem cell research set by Bush. Thank the gods! I'm a HUGE fan of stem cell research, the potential of curing nearly every known disease is too important to be governed by religious crackpots.

If that is the only reason why you would vote for Kerry then It's kind of a weak decision to want to vote for him.

[TheMosco]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
There is no ban on stem cell research in general. The keyword is ‘embryonic’.

Also, is there actually a true ‘ban’ even on embryonic stem cell research, or just that such can’t be taxpayer funded?

Make no mistake, the Bush ban hasn't stopped embryonic stem cell research. Besides private companies stepping in, several states, including California, have created or are considering creating legislation to keep various forms of embryonic stem cell research legal, including therapeutic cloning. And universities have begun setting up privately funded stem cell clinics.

All the ban has really done is slowed research, reduced government oversight, given private companies a nice gift, diminished information sharing and transparency and all but guaranteed that the US won't be a leader in stem cell treatments. And for no good reason, because excess embryos from fertility treatments are being destroyed anyway. Despite the Christian Right's attempts, there simply aren't enough people who want to adopt an embryo. Not only that, there are some couples who actually want their excess embryos used for research.

http://www.betterhumans.com/Features...D=2004-04-02-4

So basically private money is still there, but its nothing close to the 28 billion that the government has for research. It also means that corporations can secretly do research and keep all the results for themselves and buy intellectual property for cheap while at the same time slowing down research.

That article is probably worth a read.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This whole thread is full of a few people that actually know what they're talking about.

Fixed.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Fixed.

No, it was right in the first place.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by typoon:
If that is the only reason why you would vote for Kerry then It's kind of a weak decision to want to vote for him.

I don't know olePigeon but how do you know that he or someone close to him doesn't suffer from one of the debilitive diseases that could be helped by stem cell therapy? Particularly something like diabetes or Parkinson's where there's already been serious progress made. It's not inconceivable that therapies could be developed in 5-10 years if we removed the existing roadblocks to research.

I don't mean to be flip but there are other issues that affect individuals far more than the more obvious situations like the Iraq occupation.

[xenu]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
First of all, the President made a decision based on the entire nation, including the 65% of Americans who did not want to get into the mass-embrionic cloning game.

Secondly, the US under Bush has been funding stem cell research, just not within the US. Secondly, anyone qualified (like an NIH-funded scientist) can purchase any of the 12 federally-registered stem cell lines. These 12 are the ones qualified for federal funding.

There are of course federal restrictions, but there is no ban. Anyone who claims as much is living in pure ignorance.

Read for yourself...

If 65% of people want euthanasia, it should be made law? I say yes, but hypocrites will say no. They like to pick and choose their popularity polls.

Stem cell research under Bush is cripled - 12 lines. Wow. It is a "claytons" ban - a ban you have when you don't have a ban.

His decision was based on ignorance. Oh, and he didn't want to upset those vocal christian voters who wondered outloud which of their children would die for that research. If nothing else it was amusing tv viewing.

Screw the medical advances.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:

His decision was based on ignorance. Oh, and he didn't want to upset those vocal christian voters who wondered outloud which of their children would die for that research. If nothing else it was amusing tv viewing.

Opinion.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by undotwa:
To me he seems as if he has no real agenda to push but only in it for the power.

Is there a politician that doesn't?

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Agreed.

Fixed.

Are you saying it wasn't amusing tv?

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This whole thread is full of condescending pretentiousness.

I'm sorry, were you describing yourself there? In fact, this thread is highly informative, from both sides of the argument, I am learning a lot from those who are for it, and against it.

I'm so sorry that the thread hasn't turned out the way you wanted it, ie, a Kerry bashathon. But hey, you always did interject ill-informed opinions on things you know little about.

have a lovely evening.

Game on!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
I'm sorry, were you describing yourself there?

No, actually I DON'T know that much about SCR. Nor have I posted anything about it either way. I was just commenting on OTHER posts in here.

I'm so sorry that the thread hasn't turned out the way you wanted it, ie, a Kerry bashathon. But hey, you always did interject ill-informed opinions on things you know little about.

I don't care how the thread turns out. It still wreaks of condescending pretentiousness.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Game on!

Good god, y'all. In this game, I think we all lose.

***

Someone said earlier that one can't be pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think you can if you are unsure whether an embryo is a person, or not; you make the call that it is, but you know enough to know that it's not obvious and clear that it is.

Indeed, I think that an unhealthy certitude is at the root of many of the deep divisions we have in this country.

I think embryos (pre-second trimester) are not people and barely qualify as life. They are not conscious, self-aware, and at early (again, pre-second trimester) stages don't even have fully-developed nervous systems. They would become people if nature took its course, but I put the needs of people who exist over those who do not. BUT, I respect those who are opposed to abortion. With a slighly different definition of personhood and/or a slightly different set of ethical priorities, I would come down on the other side of the fence. I respect those who do.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Kerry supports stem cell research, so I'm voting for him now.

At first I thought this was pretty silly. But actually, unlike a whole slew of issues that they talk about, this is one where the president really could have a big impact on research and, ultimately, maybe on health.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Powerbook:
A creeping death is stupid too! Ronald Reagan anyone? Huh? Huuuh???

Excuse me you little prick? What was that for? You insult me and insult a dead man! Was that event funny to you?

Banned until non-lethal method developed. Period.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Excuse me you little prick? What was that for? You insult me and insult a dead man! Was that event funny to you?

Banned until non-lethal method developed. Period.

Just report him. Calling him names also is counter-productive.

[CreepingDeth]

Demon PMed me and said not to "respond likewise" or something.
Sorry, insulting dead people isn't a high priority on my list.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by strictlyplaid:
Good god, y'all. In this game, I think we all lose.

***

Someone said earlier that one can't be pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think you can if you are unsure whether an embryo is a person, or not; you make the call that it is, but you know enough to know that it's not obvious and clear that it is.

Indeed, I think that an unhealthy certitude is at the root of many of the deep divisions we have in this country.

I think embryos (pre-second trimester) are not people and barely qualify as life. They are not conscious, self-aware, and at early (again, pre-second trimester) stages don't even have fully-developed nervous systems. They would become people if nature took its course, but I put the needs of people who exist over those who do not. BUT, I respect those who are opposed to abortion. With a slighly different definition of personhood and/or a slightly different set of ethical priorities, I would come down on the other side of the fence. I respect those who do.

Life, or not life, that is the question.

[CreepingDeth]

Life. Fetuses grows, it requires nutrients, etc. Unless you consider it on the same level as a virus, it's a life.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:

How do you murder an embryo?

See, some people think life begins at conception since it is a growing LIVING human inside the woman.

I guess when someone miscarriages they shouldn't be unhappy or sad. After all, it's just an embryo!

Toss em around like Frisbees!

I am sure the hippies can hacky sack them.