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Michael Moore. SMACKED DOWN!
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http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1176055/posts
Open Letter to Bill Timmins, President Aladdin Casino and Hotel http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=93
Bill Timmins President Aladdin Casino and Hotel Las Vegas, NV
July 20, 2004
Dear Mr. Timmins:
I understand from the news reports I've read that, after Linda Ronstadt, one of America's greatest singers, dedicated a song to me from your stage on Saturday night, you instructed your security guards to remove her from the Aladdin, which they did.
What country do you live in? Last time I checked, Las Vegas is still in the United States. And in the United States, we have something called "The First Amendment." This constitutional right gives everyone here the right to say whatever they want to say. All Americans hold this right as sacred. Many of our young people put on a uniform and risk their lives to defend it. My film is all about asking the questions that should have been asked before those brave soldiers were sent into harms way.
For you to throw Linda Ronstadt off the premises because she dared to say a few words in support of me and my film, is simply stupid and Un-American. Frankly, I have never heard of such a thing happening. I read that you wouldn't even let her go back up to her room at your hotel! Are you crazy? For crying out loud, it was a song DEDICATION! To "Desperado!" Every American loves that song! Sure, some people didn't like the dedication, and that's their right. But neither they nor you have the right to remove her from your building when all she did was exercise her AMERICAN right to speak her mind.
Of all the things that go on in Las Vegas, this is what creates the need for serious action? What about the other half of the crowd at the Aladdin who, according to the Las Vegas Sun, cheered her when she made her remarks? Did you throw them out, too?
I think you owe Ms. Ronstadt an apology. And I have an idea how you can make it up to her -- and to the millions of Americans you have offended. Invite her back and I'll join her in singing "America the Beautiful" on your stage. Then I will show "Fahrenheit 9/11" free of charge to all your guests and anyone else in Las Vegas who wants to see it.
Mr. Timmins, as the song "Desperado" says -- "Come to your senses!" How can you refuse this offer? I await your reply.
Yours, Michael Moore Director, "Fahrenheit 9/11"
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The response.
July 21, 2004
Attention: Michael Moore,
In response to your letter dated July 20, 2004: You are correct that I had security remove Linda Ronstadt from Aladdin Casino and Hotel where the fun never ends and everybody wins. How very interesting to learn you are such a fan of Ms. Ronstadt.
You questioned where I live and surprisingly knew Las Vegas is in the United States. You should visit it sometime. There are thousands of wonderful 'All You Can Eat' buffets.
There are also a lot of casinos who's owners don't **** around. I am aware of the First Amendment and you have the right to talk about your hatred of America but once you are on my property and you are upsetting my guests, you will quickly learn about my rights.
I can't remember if it was Jesus or George W. Bush that said, "Freedom is a two-way street." Ms. Ronstadt learned this long before I had her thrown out of my casino. You question my actions? If you come onto my property and upset my guests, you will receive the same, if not worse, treatment than Ms. Ronstadt received. I am sure your mere presence would upset my guests.
You claim you film, "...is all about asking the questions that should have been asked before those brave soldiers were sent into harms way." I think you film does nothing but aid the enemy and hurt our troops. You have betrayed our troops, our leader and America. I have no respect for you or your vision of what America should be.
I paid Ms. Ronstadt to entertain my guests, not divide them. The half that did not leave probably thought the verse you mentioned, "Why don't you come to your senses" was addressed to you. Maybe she should have dedicated her song, 'You're No Good' to you. I would have asked her back, had she done that.
Regarding your request for me to apologize to her, have you and her on my stage singing anything about this Country and then playing your piece of **** film is ludicrous!
One of my workers is currently throwing away every complaint letter from brainless followers of you, claiming they will never visit my Casino. I could not be more pleased to know my casino and hotel will always be void of the kind of people who support you. Meanwhile, my hotel has been quickly booked solid for the rest of the year with true Americans who love this Country and support our efforts overseas.
They will see a framed copy of your letter and my response in the lobby to ensure they begin their experience with a laugh.
Sincerely,
Bill Timmins President Aladdin Casino and Hotel Las Vegas, NV
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MM must be doing something right to get this much personal attention.
If it help remove the idiots in the white house, then I suppose it's all good.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by xenu:
MM must be doing something right to get this much personal attention.
Huh? O.J. got a lot of attention too. Still does. Does that mean he did something right?
If it help remove the idiots in the white house, then I suppose it's all good.
The only people that thinks MMs movie is based on a rock of honesty are the people that wouldn't have voted for Bush in the first place.
But this isn't about his movie. This is about MM writing a moronic letter.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
Huh? O.J. got a lot of attention too. Still does. Does that mean he did something right?
The only people that thinks MMs movie is based on a rock of honesty are the people that wouldn't have voted for Bush in the first place.
But this isn't about his movie. This is about MM writing a moronic letter. [/B]
Interesting that you deflect the argument by comparing apples to oranges.
MM has shown Bush's incompetence. If this removes him from the whitehouse, great.
Perhaps the casino should vet the songs, and words spoken, before performers go onstage.
That way, mediocrity will rule, and no one will be upset.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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"The only people that thinks MMs movie is based on a rock of honesty are the people that wouldn't have voted for Bush in the first place."
word up.
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Originally posted by xenu:
Interesting that you deflect the argument by comparing apples to oranges.
You started an argument that had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC.
MM has shown Bush's incompetence. If this removes him from the whitehouse, great.
No, MM has shown he is a dishonest man.
Perhaps the casino should vet the songs, and words spoken, before performers go onstage.
That way, mediocrity will rule, and no one will be upset.
Eh, the way Linda acted that night was below mediocre.
The point is, MM got all self righteous like he always does screaming about freedom of speech and calling people un-American (pot, kettle, black) when the SAME constitution gives the guy the right to kick her sorry lard butt out of there for upsetting his guests.
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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
"The only people that thinks MMs movie is based on a rock of honesty are the people that wouldn't have voted for Bush in the first place."
word up.
Actually, I believe that's called projection.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by xenu:
Actually, I believe that's called projection.
do you have an 'off' switch?
edit: Demonhood, is that you?
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Originally posted by xenu:
Actually, I believe that's called projection.
Yes, Moore does that a lot. Many people have described his way of making movies that way.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
You started an argument that had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC.
[/b]
No, MM has shown he is a dishonest man.
Eh, the way Linda acted that night was below mediocre.
The point is, MM got all self righteous like he always does screaming about freedom of speech and calling people un-American (pot, kettle, black) when the SAME constitution gives the guy the right to kick her sorry lard butt out of there for upsetting his guests. [/B]
It had everything to do with the topic. The vitriol in the reply was there because MM has struck a nerve.
Bush is an icon of honesty?
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
do you have an 'off' switch?
edit: Demonhood, is that you?
If you don't enjoy having a discussion, don't join in.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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So what if Linda Rondstat had dedicated the song to Oliver North, thereby visibly upsetting liberal members of the audience? Should she also have been tossed under that circumstance?
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When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
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Originally posted by xenu:
It had everything to do with the topic.
No, no it didn't.
The vitriol in the reply was there because MM has struck a nerve.
MM struck the "What a moron" nerve. Yes indeed.
Bush is an icon of honesty?
Of course not. I am sure he has lied in his life. We ALL have.
But Moore just makes a LIVING doing it.
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Originally posted by chris v:
So what if Linda Rondstat had dedicated the song to Oliver North, thereby visibly upsetting liberal members of the audience? Should she also have been tossed under that circumstance?
if the OWNER of the said establishment felt it necessary. That is HIS right to do so.
People have the right to free speech. This is correct.
Owners of property also have rights to kick their sorry butt out if they do something they do not approve of.
Linda even made comments about not wanting to do that show. How she cared less what happened.
People came in there to hear her sing. Not run her pie hole about political issues.
Had she went on a pro-Bush rant, I personally would be saying the same thing.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, no it didn't.
[/b]
MM struck the "What a moron" nerve. Yes indeed.
Of course not. I am sure he has lied in his life. We ALL have.
But Moore just makes a LIVING doing it. [/B]
Let's see.
You posted an over the top letter from MM to a casino.
You then posted a reply. The reply, contained personal attacks.
I replied that MM must be doing something right to get this sort of attention.
If you didn't want this pointed out, you shouldn't have posted the reply.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by xenu:
I replied that MM must be doing something right to get this sort of attention.
If you didn't want this pointed out, you shouldn't have posted the reply.
*snort*
And I debunked your silliness by showing just because people get attention, doesn't mean they are doing something RIGHT.
Bush gets a lot of attention, he must be doing something right eh?
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*fiddles around for that elusive 'off' switch*
edit:
don't just sit there - help me look.
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[...]
I can't remember if it was Jesus or George W. Bush that said, "Freedom is a two-way street."[...]
....
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Are you sure that this isn't a parody? That freaking idiot confuses Jesus Christ and George Bush!
He was right that he was well within his rights to kick her off his property, whether in poor taste or not, but it sounds like he's a thug who doesn't know much else other than, "What's mine is MINE!"
I'm really surprised the a die hard Christian, like yourself, Zimphire, could let that slide without comment. Even if you like GW, he's no JC.
Seriously, this guy has to be six kinds of stupid, all of them patented and trademarked by him to pull a letter like that off.
BlackGriffen
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
*snort*
And I debunked your silliness by showing just because people get attention, doesn't mean they are doing something RIGHT.
Bush gets a lot of attention, he must be doing something right eh?
You debunked nothing.
Bush would get attention just for being president. It's a meaningless comparison.
MM is doing something right by getting people to talk, and think, about these issues.
I guess I should have expanded on what I meant by 'doing something right' and what I personally believe would be a good thing.
If this removes Bush, I believe this would be a good thing. You disagree.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
if the OWNER of the said establishment felt it necessary. That is HIS right to do so.
People have the right to free speech. This is correct.
Owners of property also have rights to kick their sorry butt out if they do something they do not approve of.
Linda even made comments about not wanting to do that show. How she cared less what happened.
People came in there to hear her sing. Not run her pie hole about political issues.
Had she went on a pro-Bush rant, I personally would be saying the same thing.
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When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
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Posting Junkie
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
if the OWNER of the said establishment felt it necessary. That is HIS right to do so.
People have the right to free speech. This is correct.
Owners of property also have rights to kick their sorry butt out if they do something they do not approve of.
Linda even made comments about not wanting to do that show. How she cared less what happened.
People came in there to hear her sing. Not run her pie hole about political issues.
Had she went on a pro-Bush rant, I personally would be saying the same thing.
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What smackdown?
You MM love slave biatches are...ho hum...making me sleepy. 
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Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
What smackdown?
You MM love slave biatches are...ho hum...making me sleepy.
Yeah right. He was smacked so hard, he's still jiggling... or maybe that's just because he's breathing. Dunno.
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(edit) - I don't want to get in any trouble with that last pic, so I'm changing it. . . . .
(Last edited by PacHead; Aug 13, 2004 at 09:49 PM.
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Did the guy who made "super-size me" get this much vitriol for the way he made his documentary?
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by xenu:
Did the guy who made "super-size me" get this much vitriol for the way he made his documentary?
No, he was just trying to LOOK like MM, not BE MM.
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Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
I'm really surprised the a die hard Christian, like yourself, Zimphire, could let that slide without comment. Even if you like GW, he's no JC.
OMG Splif! U R Teh bad person!
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Originally posted by xenu:
You debunked nothing.
LAAWL I showed how people can get a lot of attention without doing something right. Indeed I did. You are in denial.
MM is doing something right by getting people to talk, and think, about these issues.
No, most people are knee-jerking about the issues, and making fun of him.
If this removes Bush, I believe this would be a good thing. You disagree.
Sorry pal. That movie isn't going to remove Bush from office. Esp not since it's been shown as a fraud.
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Originally posted by xenu:
Did the guy who made "super-size me" get this much vitriol for the way he made his documentary?
That guys was trying to prove McDonalds food isn't healthy. Don't know many people that would argue with that.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
LAAWL I showed how people can get a lot of attention without doing something right. Indeed I did. You are in denial.
[/b]
No, most people are knee-jerking about the issues, and making fun of him.
Sorry pal. That movie isn't going to remove Bush from office. Esp not since it's been shown as a fraud. [/B]
Believe what you want. If you believe keeping people ignorant is right, then fine.
MM showed the incompetence of Bush. How long was America at war before Bush decided to do something? He was probably wondering if anyone would notice if he had a game of golf.
Moore has made people question their leaders. That is always a good thing.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
That guys was trying to prove McDonalds food isn't healthy. Don't know many people that would argue with that.
MM was trying to show Bush for the buffon he is. Not many people would argue with that.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion - Steven Weinberg.
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Originally posted by xenu:
Believe what you want. If you believe keeping people ignorant is right, then fine.
I never said I believed that. But lying to the people isn't enlightening them. And that is what Moore is doing. And it's not just "what I believe" For someone to be talked about, they don't have to be doing something "right"
I don't even know why you try to deny that.
MM showed the incompetence of Bush. How long was America at war before Bush decided to do something? He was probably wondering if anyone would notice if he had a game of golf.
No, MM showed he could make a fictional movie. The only people that still think that movie is legit are the people that WANT to believe it's legit. Everyone else knows better.
Moore has made people question their leaders. That is always a good thing.
Again, Moore's fans were anti-Bush zealots before the movie was made. Nothing has changed.
Originally posted by xenu:
MM was trying to show Bush for the buffon he is. Not many people would argue with that.
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Bill Timmins sounds like a petty douche.
Here guyz:
I agree the guy had the right to throw Rondstat out. But that doesn't lessen his douche-ness.
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Originally posted by MindFad:
Here guyz:
Good thinking. But xenu probably already has one. 
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Oh, like I didn't see that one coming. 
I'm just drunk-ish. I really don't care about this whole letter to Timmins. Not that I don't think he was an asshole for what he did. But this is the one time I would've told MM to just STFU.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
Owners of property also have rights to kick their sorry butt out if they do something they do not approve of.
Maybe, if they (the owners) are puerile arseholes.
Frankly, the reply letter reveals much about the personality of that casino/hotel "owner".
To each his own, I suppose... 
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The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
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Originally posted by Sven G:
Maybe, if they (the owners) are puerile arseholes.
Frankly, the reply letter reveals much about the personality of that casino/hotel "owner".
To each his own, I suppose...
Hey, if Linda would have just stuck to what the people payed for, to hear her sing. None of this would go on.
Too many self-important artists think their fans give a crap.
In this case, She more than likely knew. She didn't want to even play there.
I'd have told her to hit the road as well.
And if Michael hadn't been so snobbishly self righteous in his letter, I doubt he would have gotten the reply he did.
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
Hey, if Linda would have just stuck to what the people payed for, to hear her sing. None of this would go on.
Too many self-important artists think their fans give a crap.
In this case, She more than likely knew. She didn't want to even play there.
I'd have told her to hit the road as well.
And if Michael hadn't been so snobbishly self righteous in his letter, I doubt he would have gotten the reply he did.
Self-righteous? I don't think so: rather, Mr. Moore made the mistake of using the term "American" in his letter, when he could have made more general remarks in a more constructive way.
Anyway, it's evident that the owner (who seemed to be much more self-righteous, with patronising attitudes towards "his" paying customers) only cares about the "reputation" of the casino/hotel - and, eventually, so, only about the $$$. When money becomes everything, sadly, things end up like that...
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The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
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Originally posted by Sven G:
Self-righteous? I don't think so: rather, Mr. Moore made the mistake of using the term "American" in his letter, when he could have made more general remarks in a more constructive way.
Moore tried to act as if he was above the man for not being so "Anti-American" (yeah right there Mr Moore)
Anyway, it's evident that the owner (who seemed to be much more self-righteous, with patronising attitudes towards "his" paying customers) only cares about the "reputation" of the casino/hotel - and, eventually, so, only about the $$$. When money becomes everything, sadly, things end up like that...
I don't think it was about the money. I think it was about his disgust with the way the "lady" handled herself.
And I don't blame him.
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Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
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I would've kicked Rondstat out on her butt also. She was looking for trouble, and she accomplished her goal.
Normal people don't like liars or people who praise liars.
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Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2002
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"Bush is an icon of honesty?
Of course not. I am sure he has lied in his life. We ALL have.
But Moore just makes a LIVING doing it."
As opposed to Bush who makes a KILLING doing it.**
(**Actually, Bush has others doing his killing for him but that didn't sound as catchy.)
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Originally posted by Zimphire:
Too many self-important artists think their fans give a crap.
I'm not for snobby artists either, but the way you put it, does it mean that a real fan is just an empty vessel that has no justification in holding onto a system of belief where an artist could possibly help nurture? Then again, I'm just talking to myself. Nevermind... continue on with your fight against MM, liberals, blah blah blah... sigh... *yawn*
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
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Originally posted by demograph68:
I'm not for snobby artists either, but the way you put it, does it mean that a real fan is just an empty vessel that has no justification in holding onto a system of belief where an artist could possibly help nurture? Then again, I'm just talking to myself. Nevermind... continue on with your fight against MM, liberals, blah blah blah... sigh... *yawn*
I don't see how one could argue against artists taking a political/ethical stance on one hand and think Christian rock is the bee's knees on the other...
Where does that leave Dylan (who has done both, interestingly), Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Johnny Cash, Pink Floyd, Joni Mitchell, Country Joe & the Fish, Joan Baez, Joan Armatrading, early Bowie, .... ? All crap with no merit?
-s*
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I think the liberals or democrats in America need Michael Moore. Not because he is so overly intelligent or analytic or wise or whatever, but because he has the talent to shrink down very complex topics to easily understandable chunks and complements them with catchy arguments.
With the help of MM, the democrats are able to reach the not-decided voters, that are not interested in politics, because it's too complex. The politically interested voters have already set their mind, most of them at least, so the fight between the democrats and republicans, or between the liberals and the neo-cons, is about the not-interested and undecided part of the population.
In that regard MM is the perfect counter-part for the market-screamers of the neo-cons.
Just my 2 cent from outside the US.
On topic, the owner of the hotel in Las Vegas is definetly in the right to decide if he wants to fire the performers or not, for whatever reason he might have, even for political reasons.
But I'm curious, isn't Las Vegas the town in the desert that the mafia has built, and wasn't the mafia active in the process to legalise gambling through bribery, blackmailing and threatening of politicians?
Taliesin
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
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Originally posted by chris v:
So what if Linda Rondstat had dedicated the song to Oliver North, thereby visibly upsetting liberal members of the audience? Should she also have been tossed under that circumstance?
CV
She should be tossed under any circumstances the owner of the casino wants to toss her. That's the First Amendment -- freedom of association.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2000
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You are so obsessed with MM, it is funny.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Milan, Europe
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
She should be tossed under any circumstances the owner of the casino wants to toss her. That's the First Amendment -- freedom of association.
So how do you balance freedom of speech and freedom of association?
Maybe through a healthy dose of common sense, instead of that rather uncivilised behaviour, à la Las Vegas mafia-like business: there could have been an agreement, instead of what happened...
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The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
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Baninated
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Moon
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Originally posted by lurkalot:
"Bush is an icon of honesty?
Of course not. I am sure he has lied in his life. We ALL have.
But Moore just makes a LIVING doing it."
As opposed to Bush who makes a KILLING doing it.**
(**Actually, Bush has others doing his killing for him but that didn't sound as catchy.)
So tell me Lurk. What did Bush Lie about?
Think about it before you reply.
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Baninated
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Moon
Status:
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Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I don't see how one could argue against artists taking a political/ethical stance on one hand and think Christian rock is the bee's knees on the other...
Who thinks that?
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