[Lerkfish]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/in...aghdad.html?hp

Iraqi Conference on Election Plan Sinks Into Chaos
GHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 15 - A conference of more than 1,100 Iraqis chosen to take the country a crucial step further toward constitutional democracy convened in Baghdad on Sunday under siege-like conditions, only to be thrown into disorder by delegates staging angry protests against the American-led military operation in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.

After an opening speech by Iraq's interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, delegates leapt out of their seats demanding the conference be suspended. One Shiite delegate stormed the stage before being forced back, shouting, "We demand that military operations in Najaf stop immediately!"

Shortly afterward, two mortar shells fired at the area where the meeting was being held landed in a bus and truck terminal nearby, killing 2 people and wounding at least 17.

The three-day conference, called to elect a 100-member commission that is to organize elections in January and hold veto powers over decrees passed by the Allawi government, was not halted. But reporters who had been told to wear flak jackets and helmets when entering the convention center complex past American tanks were frantically waved back from the center's plate glass windows as the mortar shells exploded, shaking the complex and rattling the windows.

tragic times for Iraqis.

[OldManMac]

B, bu, but, but King George told us we've turned the corner, and that the mission is accomplished. I don't understand!

[CreepingDeth]

Damn, we should have left them with the fun loving Saddam. 10/10 living people love him as a cuddly fuzzball.
The corner thing was the economy. But thanks for not knowing that.

[PacHead]

Some people are just all gloom & doom pessimists.

Others, who are more realistic, remain optimists.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Others, who are more realistic, remain optimists.

Indeed. The words "realistic," "optimism," and "Middle East" go really well together.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Damn, we should have left them with the fun loving Saddam. 10/10 living people love him as a cuddly fuzzball.
The corner thing was the economy. But thanks for not knowing that.

Actually, I believe we should have left them with Saddam. Let them sort their own mess out. Why aren't we in places like Darfur, where there's raping of women and children, and killing of men, on a huge scale, and no one is stopping it? Oh wait, they don't have any oil. How silly of me to forget.

Dubya told us quite some time ago that the mission was accomplished; to me that's the same thing as turning the corner; thanks for not understanding that.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Fox indoctrination, I mean, news, I mean....Oh hell, call it what it is, spin!

[CreepingDeth]

Right, oil. All for oil…
Hey, if they're terrorists and/or terrorists, we should do something about it. I'd say half the middle east has a reputation for…uh…killings.

Back to regularly scheduled spoiled brat Ezra Pound Karl Marx Variety Hour, only on CNN.

[Lerkfish]

Its possible to lament the morass Iraq has become with being a "saddam lover", a "communist" or any of the other labels republicans apply when they are quivering in fear in the corner, afraid to confront reality. Those epithets keep their fear, and their minds, safe from information.

[CreepingDeth]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Its possible to lament the morass Iraq has become with being a "saddam lover", a "communist" or any of the other labels republicans apply when they are quivering in fear in the corner, afraid to confront reality. Those epithets keep their fear, and their minds, safe from information.

You are a really really horrible projection artist Lerk.

[CreepingDeth]

What's projection™?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
What's projection™?

The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt

[Demonhood]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
What's projection™?

A word that has little to do with the topic at hand (or even the post he was replying to).

Can't you guys have one discussion without resorting to every bad debate tactic?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
A word that has little to do with the topic at hand (or even the post he was replying to).

Sure it did. I would indeed call this below a projection.

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
when they are quivering in fear in the corner, afraid to confront reality.

[Demonhood]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Sure it did. I would indeed call this below a projection.

How about next time you simply state that you don't believe that to be the case and then continue discussing the topic at hand. By stating he's projecting, you're causing the topic to be about Lerk instead of the one he posted.

[Zimphire]

Ok.

Lerk, I don't believe the adjectives you used to describe conservatives to be correct.

As it seems, it looks to be the left that are cowering in paranoia and fear.

But that is just MHO.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
Can't you guys have one discussion without resorting to every bad debate tactic?

You kidding?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Damn, we should have left them with the fun loving Saddam. 10/10 living people love him as a cuddly fuzzball.
The corner thing was the economy. But thanks for not knowing that.

Hey I gotta give Saddam this..at least he knew how to keep order..(wait for shouts and fits of anger, accusations of being a traitor etc.)
But then again it's the United States job to police every other country in the world..der I forgot.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by UR-20:
Hey I gotta give Saddam this..at least he knew how to keep order..

So did Hitler..

But then again it's the United States job to police every other country in the world..der I forgot.

Yeah I know. I am getting sick of the US doing most of it. Other larger countries should be at least doing their share to make this world a better place as well.

[CreepingDeth]

Oh yeah, Europe has an army the site of Luxembourg compared to ours. Woops. How did that every happen? I guess that means we're the only ones qualified for being the world's police force, or dictator killer.

[Zimphire]

When the US does do something it's "You think you can do everything don't you!!?!?!"

And when it's not doing something it's "Why isn't the US helping (insert rant) now? IT NEEDS TO BE!"

It's a double edged sword set up so people can rant no matter what we do.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by Zimphire:


Yeah I know. I am getting sick of the US doing most of it. Other larger countries should be at least doing their share to make this world a better place as well.

What do you mean "their share" it was OUR war to begin with. Please explain to me why they should feel obligated to offer ANY aid to a war that they didn't support.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by UR-20:
What do you mean "their share" it was OUR war to begin with. Please explain to me why the should feel obligate to offer ANY aid to a war that they didn't support.

[CreepingDeth]

[UR-20]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Is that suppose to affect me some how?

"The U.S. military told the Wall Street Journal that as of April 10 at least 2,320 Iraqi soldiers had been killed in the battle for Baghdad alone. A week earlier CBS reported the estimate of "several officers" in the U.S. military that 4,000 Iraqi troops had been killed on the road from the Euphrates to Baghdad."

"On June 11, the Associated Press published a hospital-by-hospital survey that confirmed at least 3,240 civilian casualties, including 1,896 in Baghdad. But the AP report covered only 60 of Iraq's 124 hospitals and only the period between March 20 and April 20."

I guess we figured we could do a better job

[CreepingDeth]

"350,000-1 million dead under Saddam"-5 year old news.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
tragic times for Iraqis.

Of course, you could always look at the bright side.

Best known for the torture they suffered under Saddam Hussein and his son, Uday – poor play resulted in imprisonment, caning and who knows what else – the Iraqis, free from the fear of failure, with destiny on its bench, and with an incomparable mental toughness, are playing as well with as any team in the Games.

"I believe we have a very strong team," said coach Adnan Hamad through a translator. "I believe we have a team that can reach perhaps further stages. The first victory (over powerhouse Portugal) certainly made a difference and certainly gave a boost to each player's performance."

Straight out of a war-torn country where violence, terrorism and rebel uprisings are a daily reality, the team now brings hope and happiness to a people who so need it.

"I can imagine they are shooting now in the air instead of shooting somebody," said Al-Samarrai of the scene back in Iraq. "It is really the right time for them. Cease fire, peaceful for a couple of hours as they are watching their football. Then celebration. Hopefully they will continue like that, not in the violence.

"The Iraqi people, they (missed) that happiness being under torture or dictatorship. They have been in wars with neighbors. Until now they are not settled 100 percent.

If the reaction in Baghdad is anything like the bedlam that befell the south stands here at Karaiskaki Stadium on the outskirts of Athens, then crazy isn't a strong enough word. About 10,000 Iraqi fans came and never stopped dancing, chanting, singing or waving flags during the match.

After each of the team's goals, a few dozen were so overjoyed that they ran onto the field to hug the players.

Perhaps no team has ever ridden the energy and emotion of its fans more. It can’t be understated. "In each step they take, they are pushed with the pride of the Iraqi people," said Al-Samarrai.

Afterward, the team linked hands at midfield and in tribute ran toward the fans, who were by now singing their new favorite song: "By our souls and blood we are giving life to you, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq."

Eighteen months ago the final words were Saddam, Saddam, Saddam.

"No Saddam. Look at Iraq," said fan Hadi Shani of Mosul. "Look at Iraq! All we (needed) was a chance. Now you see."

The story is still somewhat of a secret in the United States, where NBC has paid terribly little attention to it and few media outlets have staffed games. But that will change. There could be no greater story to come out of these Olympics than the one the Iraqis are capable of writing.

[CreepingDeth]

Bright side toward freedom?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
"350,000-1 million dead under Saddam"-5 year old news.

So you're saying that we're on our way.

Only 9,560..but that's only taken from the beginning of the war, phew.. you're right we have a ways to go if we're gonna beat that.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
How about next time you simply state that you don't believe that to be the case and then continue discussing the topic at hand. By stating he's projecting, you're causing the topic to be about Lerk instead of the one he posted.

thank you.

BOT: I think, unfortunately, the present morass is directly due to the administration not having a credible or workable exit strategy. The war was "mission accomplished" but the peace was understaffed, naive in its understanding of the local political and ethnic difficulties and hastily and poorly bungled in its attempts to "hand over" control.

I"m just sad, and its very tragic for those in Iraq that in both cases, under Saddam, and under the US "liberation", that thousands of blameless die, all in the cause of power and the abuse (or misuse) of power.

It saddens me, and I lament that it reminds me of the parable of what happened to the man from whom a demon was driven...but who did not replace the vacuum with anything good., and so the demon returned, seeing the man empty, and gathered even more of his demon friends and repossessed the man again.

The so-called humanitarian reasons for regime-changing Iraq barrelled in but forgot and left the humans back at the door.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
A word that has little to do with the topic at hand (or even the post he was replying to).

Can't you guys have one discussion without resorting to every bad debate tactic?

The above

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by dcolton:
The above

how so?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
how so?

How's your collar bone?

BOT:
Don't you think that the Iraqi's are going to have some heated debate as they move towards freedom? They are defining a nation and attempting to resolve some serious issues that divide their people. I would be much more concerned if they weren't bickering and demanding the withdrawl of US troops. THEY ARE EXCERCISING THE VERY FREEDOM brought to them by brave American soldiers.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by dcolton:
How's your collar bone?

slowly improving, thanks for asking. You and Logan Charles spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about it. My collarbone is not the subject of this thread, however.

Originally posted by dcolton:
BOT:
Don't you think that the Iraqi's are going to have some heated debate as they move towards freedom? They are defining a nation and attempting to resolve some serious issues that divide their people. I would be much more concerned if they weren't bickering and demanding the withdrawl of US troops. THEY ARE EXCERCISING THE VERY FREEDOM brought to them by brave American soldiers.

I was lamenting the wounding of 17 and killing of two people by mortarfire, who were uninvolved in the "heated debate as they move towards freedom", but paid a dear price anyways.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Did you lament the innocent who died under the Clinton administrations?

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Did you lament the innocent who died under the Clinton administrations?

Oh but dont you know no one died under Clinton?

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
I was lamenting the wounding of 17 and killing of two people by mortarfire, who were uninvolved in the "heated debate as they move towards freedom", but paid a dear price anyways.

In your perfect world, how does conflict get resolved. How is positive change accomplished?

Do you think a free Iraq is + or - ?

What do you think about the Iraqi soccer team?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Did you lament the innocent who died under the Clinton administrations?

yes. I lament the death of innocents for any reason. That's why I oppose war.
how about you?

I also think war waged unnecessarily that incur innocent deaths bother me even more.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by dcolton:
In your perfect world, how does conflict get resolved. How is positive change accomplished?

Do you think a free Iraq is + or - ?

What do you think about the Iraqi soccer team?

1. Various methods. I've often stated that we spend massive resources on how to effective wage war, and practically nothing on how to achieve peace. If we allocated even one tenth of the war budget to trying to find peaceful solutions, peaceful solutions would occur more often. I'm a pacifist but I realize wars occur. I just regret that armed conflict is too often the FIRST resort instead of the last one. As a species, our diplomatic muscles have all but atrophied, while our ability to slaughter each others keeps improving.

2. I think a free Iraq is better than an enslaved one, but I don't think the current administration would allow a "free" Iraq that opposes US interests, do you? The definition of freedom is an interesting one, and POV makes a big difference in what you consider "free" if YOU view "free" as compliant to US interests, then the Iraqis might disagree.

3. I don't follow soccer. Not a big sports enthusiast. what about them?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
yes. I lament the death of innocents for any reason. That's why I oppose war.

So you didn't think it's a good idea to take out Milosevic? You think baking him brownies or cookies would have stopped him instead?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
So you didn't think it's a good idea to take out Milosevic? You think baking him brownies or cookies would have stopped him instead?

Do you appreciate the difference of Saddam's Iraq and what was happening in former Yugoslavia?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Do you appreciate the difference of Saddam's Iraq and what was happening in former Yugoslavia?

Yeah, the only difference being what party controlled the White House at the time of the occurance.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Yeah, the only difference being what party controlled the White House at the time of the occurance.

No that is not the only difference. Is what you are doing the famous 'straw man' argument? Or is that more elaborate?

[checks teh intarweb]
Description of Straw Man


The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.


This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.[/google]

Yup that was a grade A straw man u tried to pull there.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
So you didn't think it's a good idea to take out Milosevic? You think baking him brownies or cookies would have stopped him instead?

I oppose war. ALL wars. That doesn't mean they don't occur. It also means there aren't some benefits to some wars. I just oppose the concept of war as the ONLY means to an end. I oppose it as a first resort instead of a last resort. I would rather we abolish wars altogether. I do not expect that to happen just because I wish it so. But just because wars seem inevitable, I am not going to support them just because it seems a tendency of modern society.
I also oppose child pornography, but it will continue whether I oppose it or not. Does that make my opposition wrong? I find war obscene. I wish everyone did. They don't. That doesn't change my opinion.
You might not agree with me, and that's up to you.

[Lerkfish]

and for the record, this thread, again, has centered on Lerkfish. I am not the subject of the thread. Please address the subject.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Actually, I believe we should have left them with Saddam. Let them sort their own mess out. Why aren't we in places like Darfur, where there's raping of women and children, and killing of men, on a huge scale, and no one is stopping it? Oh wait, they don't have any oil. How silly of me to forget.

Dubya told us quite some time ago that the mission was accomplished; to me that's the same thing as turning the corner; thanks for not understanding that.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Fox indoctrination, I mean, news, I mean....Oh hell, call it what it is, spin!

There's no oil in the Sudan? You might want to do a bit of research on that. You'll find you are quite wrong. You will also find that there has also been a bipartisan bill introduced that will prevent American oil companies from doing business in Sudan (they are all ready prevented from doing business there now) in the advent of American intervention.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
There's no oil in the Sudan? You might want to do a bit of research on that. You'll find you are quite wrong. You will also find that there has also been a bipartisan bill introduced that will prevent American oil companies from doing business in Sudan (they are all ready prevented from doing business there now) in the advent of American intervention.

Whoa!

Sudan has recently doubled their oil production to a whopping 345,000 barrels per day.

Nice.

Now how about say, Iran? Oh only 3,775,000 barrels per day.

Perspective. Sudan isn't even on the top 20 list of oil producing countries. Nor will it ever be.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Whoa!

Sudan has recently doubled their oil production to a whopping 345,000 barrels per day.

Nice.

Now how about say, Iran? Oh only 3,775,000 barrels per day.

Perspective. Sudan isn't even on the top 20 list of oil producing countries. Nor will it ever be.

Nice one! I am too lazy this morning... Does anyone have a list of the highest oil producing nations?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Nice one! I am too lazy this morning... Does anyone have a list of the highest oil producing nations?

Here is something

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
There's no oil in the Sudan? You might want to do a bit of research on that. You'll find you are quite wrong. You will also find that there has also been a bipartisan bill introduced that will prevent American oil companies from doing business in Sudan (they are all ready prevented from doing business there now) in the advent of American intervention.

Sudan, as has been pointed out, is inconsequential as far as our glutinous needs for oil. As far as this bill you speak of, I'm sure the women and children who are being raped, and the men who are being slaughtered, by Arab backed militia, are eternally grateful, and hope it passes soon.