[Zimphire]

I am not posting this saying Bush has never lied. I am sure he has.

But I have been hearing from the left in here how much Bush is a liar. But I haven't heard of any honest answers as to WHAT he has lied about.

I posted this because I am honestly curious as to what our President has lied about since he has been in office.

[BlackGriffen]

Can we include his whole administration?

"We know right where they are, right around Tikrit and Bagdad." --Don Rumsfeld
Clean Air Act
Air quality in Lower Manhattan immediately after 9/11.

Is that enough, or shall we go on?

BlackGriffen

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am not posting this saying Bush has never lied. I am sure he has.

But I have been hearing from the left in here how much Bush is a liar. But I haven't heard of any honest answers as to WHAT he has lied about.

I posted this because I am honestly curious as to what our President has lied about since he has been in office.

If you are sure Bush has told lies then why didn't you start off with a little list of your own to verify through peer review if your suspicions about the President's less than truthfulness were warranted?

One at a time to keep things simple but in the end this thread will surely contain much more than a trifecta.

Bush lie:
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction."

[Secret__Police]

You could read the book

book of lies

[John I. Smith]

BUSh lied about teh WAR ON IRWAWQ, HE SAID: "I'm NOT really going to war guys seriously" but then he WENT TO WAR IN iRaq it is TEH LIE

[Secret__Police]

They all lie, maybe not all.

George Washington, at least according to Parson Weems, never told a lie. Subsequent presidents, as David Corn admits, have not always lived up to his standard. In a rich gallery of examples, we remember Lyndon Johnson (the Gulf of Tonkin), Richard Nixon ("I am not a crook"), Ronald Reagan ("I did not trade arms for hostages"), George H.W. Bush ("Read my lips: no new taxes") and, of course, Bill Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman").

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Can we include his whole administration?

No, just Bush. I've been told Bush is a liar.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
If you are sure Bush has told lies then why didn't you start off with a little list of your own to verify through peer review if your suspicions about the President's less than truthfulness were warranted?

You don't understand. I am sure he has lied because WE ALL HAVE. Not because I know of any specific ones. That is why I posted this.

Bush lie:
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction."

When and where did he say this? And under what context?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Secret__Police:
You could read the book

book of lies

That about ranks up there with Michael Moore calling Bush a liar because he said Iraq had WMDs.

[brachiator]

I'll play along, Zim. It will be fun!

Here's an interesting searchable database of false claims by Bush personnel and other so-called conservatives; you can narrow it down to just GWB if you wish.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by John I. Smith:
BUSh lied about teh WAR ON IRWAWQ, HE SAID: "I'm NOT really going to war guys seriously" but then he WENT TO WAR IN iRaq it is TEH LIE

STFU™

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Here's an interesting searchable database of false claims by Bush personnel and other so-called conservatives; you can narrow it down to just GWB if you wish.

False claims are different from lies.

I could make a false claim while believing it was the truth, and it not be a lie.

But I know, many lefties like to turn false claims into all out lies to America!

Just ask any Bush hater.

[brachiator]

Well, unless someone can get inside the mind of GWB or he comes out and says "I lied," you are simply going to have to accept a comprehensive pattern and practice of false claims as circumstantial evidence of lying.

The only other alternatives are these:

That he is simply stupid. I don't buy it. He is at least very clever.

That he is ravingly incompetent. Taking his claimed intentions at face value on pursuing Al Qaeda, prosecuting the war in and rebuilding Iraq, and domestic economic policy, he is most certainly that.

That he is mentally ill or otherwise deluded. This may be the case, as well. By most accounts he is charming and kind in person, but his policies are the diametric opposites. His claims of not only speaking to God but getting replies and direction further support this premise.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Well, unless someone can get inside the mind of GWB or he comes out and says "I lied," you are simply going to have to accept a comprehensive pattern and practice of false claims as circumstantial evidence of lying.

No, if one can show or prove he knew differently when he lied, like they did with Clinton. Then you could indeed show such a thing.

The only other alternatives are these:

That he is simply stupid. I don't buy it. He is at least very clever.

That he is ravingly incompetent. Taking his claimed intentions at face value on pursuing Al Qaeda, prosecuting the war in and rebuilding Iraq, and domestic economic policy, he is most certainly that.

So was Clinton stupid or ravingly incompetent when he thought the SAME things about Iraq? Even going as far as agreeing with Bush that Iraq needed a new government?

That he is mentally ill or otherwise deluded. This may be the case, as well. By most accounts he is charming and kind in person, but his policies are the diametric opposites. His claims of not only speaking to God but getting replies and direction further support this premise.

Ok, this has nothing to do with said topic. This isn't a "rant about Bush, and make obnoxiously ridiculous claims against him" thread.

The facts please. That is all that I require. Not baseless opinions.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
False claims are different from lies.

I could make a false claim while believing it was the truth, and it not be a lie.

But I know, many lefties like to turn false claims into all out lies to America!

Just ask any Bush hater.

Well, since you're being too lazy, I'll just post the ones that rank high on the lietastic meter:

Topic:__Environment

Speaker:__Bush, George - President

Date:__9/29/2000

Quote/Claim:
"[If elected], Governor Bush will work to…establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Souirce: Bush Environmental Plan]

Fact:
"I do not believe that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide." - President Bush, 3/13/03



Topic:__War On Terror

Speaker:__Bush, George - President

Date:__9/23/2003

Quote/Claim:
“All governments that support terror are complicit in a war against civilization.” - UN Speech [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
The Administration continues its close ties with the Saudis despite the findings of a bipartisan commission investigating 9/11. The commission found the Saudi government “not only provided significant money and aid to the suicide hijackers but also allowed potentially hundreds of millions of dollars to flow to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups through suspect charities and other fronts.” - LA Times, 8/2/03



Topic:__Economy - Jobs

Speaker:__Bush, George - President

Date:__9/15/2003

Quote/Claim:
"I'm sure the numbers are beginning to look better." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"Data released today by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the Bush administration fell 437,000 jobs short in August, losing 93,000 jobs, instead of creating the 344,000 it had projected for each month after July 2003." - EPI, 9/5/03




Topic:__Foreign Policy

Speaker:__Bush, George - President

Date:__10/28/2003

Quote/Claim:
“The world is more peaceful and more free under my leadership.” [White House Web site]

Fact:
According to Amnesty International’s 2003 annual report, “The world has become more dangerous, and governments more repressive, since the effort to fight terrorism began after the 9/11, attacks on the United States.” For the U.S. specifically, “Since March, 353 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq, including 229 in hostile fire.” - NY Times, 5/29/03; CNN, 10/28/03




Topic:__Iraq - Post-Invasion

Speaker:__Bush, George - President

Date:__10/28/2003

Quote/Claim:
"General Abizaid makes the decision as to whether or not he needs more troops... And he told me he does [have enough troops]." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
Less than two weeks later, the Bush Administration announced its decision "to dispatch thousands of Marines to Iraq as part of a revised troop rotation that will swell the size of the US occupation by up to 50,000 troops." - Boston Globe, 11/6/03

That's enough for now. The first especially is something that Bush has complete control over, thus it could only be considered a lie that he didn't live up to his word.

BlackGriffen

[Zimphire]

Bow, those are on the verge Black. I would say a reach.

If that is lying. Kerry is a habitual liar.

Those are purposably taken out of context as well. Michael Moore tactics.

The first one has him saying something he believed in back in 2000, and compared it to something he now believes in in 2003.

What a stretch. That is why I said honesty was a part of this.

Not baseless out of context accusations.

And I already read and discredit that page. There was no laziness going on.

Try again.

[demograph68]

“The world is more peaceful and more free under my leadership.”

Does that sound conceited?

"I'm sure the numbers are beginning to look better."

That's an awful assumption to make.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by demograph68:
“The world is more peaceful and more free under my leadership.”

Does that sound conceited?

"I'm sure the numbers are beginning to look better."

That's an awful assumption to make.

That may be so. But they certainly can't be said to be all out lies. AKA KNOWINGLY and PURPOSELY telling mistruths.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

No, if one can show or prove he knew differently when he lied, like they did with Clinton. Then you could indeed show such a thing.[/B]

Really, what does it matter? Although for Clinton, I suppose one could argue that he was mentally ill. He certainly was a gigantic disappointment... I haven't looked through them all, but I imagine that many of the Bush "false claims" are contradicted by Bush's own statements or other indicia of his knowledge of their falsity. For me, I don't care what he thinks, only what he says and does.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So was Clinton stupid or ravingly incompetent when he thought the SAME things about Iraq? Even going as far as agreeing with Bush that Iraq needed a new government?

I don't dispute Saddam's evil or the need for changes in Iraq. What I criticized GWB for was his prosecution of the war and reconstruction. Colossal blunders. If Clinton had botched it as badly, same judgment.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, this has nothing to do with said topic. This isn't a "rant about Bush, and make obnoxiously ridiculous claims against him" thread.The facts please. That is all that I require. Not baseless opinions.

Well, you've brought up the difference between falsehoods and lies. One possible explanation for so many falsehoods and yet no lies is that the speaker is so mentally ill that he doesn't recognize that what he is saying is false. There have been reports of Bush indicating that he was directed or commanded by God to take certain actions. A person who thinks this is either very special (perhaps blessed) or deluded. Moreover, there have been reports -- somewhat less credible -- that Bush is very mentally unbalanced and is on medication for these problems. Raising the possibility that he utters falsehoods becuase he does not know they are false due to mental illness is not a rant, is not obnoxious or ridiculous, and is not baseless. It's speculation based on the facts as reported and in response to your distinction between lies and falsehoods.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Really, what does it matter?

What does what matter? Knowing for sure if someone lied before accusing them?

Although for Clinton, I suppose one could argue that he was mentally ill. He certainly was a gigantic disappointment... I haven't looked through them all, but I imagine that many of the Bush "false claims" are contradicted by Bush's own statements or other indicia of his knowledge of their falsity. For me, I don't care what he thinks, only what he says and does.

Most of those are not lies on that page. Some COULD BE, but you'd have to be doing a lot of assuming.

I don't dispute Saddam's evil or the need for changes in Iraq. What I criticized GWB for was his prosecution of the war and reconstruction. Colossal blunders. If Clinton had botched it as badly, same judgment.

prosecution of the war?

Well, you've brought up the difference between falsehoods and lies. One possible explanation for so many falsehoods and yet no lies is that the speaker is so mentally ill that he doesn't recognize that what he is saying is false.

More baseless silliness. If you have nothing to add but such things. Just stay out of it. Have you ever made claims you thought were true, only for them to be false? I am sure you have. YOU MUST BE MENTALLY ILL THEN!

There have been reports of Bush indicating that he was directed or commanded by God to take certain actions. A person who thinks this is either very special (perhaps blessed) or deluded.

Highly subjective. Again, this thread isn't about your anti-Bush zealot silliness.

Moreover, there have been reports -- somewhat less credible -- that Bush is very mentally unbalanced and is on medication for these problems. Raising the possibility that he utters falsehoods becuase he does not know they are false due to mental illness is not a rant, is not obnoxious or ridiculous, and is not baseless. It's speculation based on the facts as reported and in response to your distinction between lies and falsehoods.

LAAWL! Please show me some information on these claims. I am honestly curious.

[lurkalot]

Bush lie:
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction."

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
False claims are different from lies.

I could make a false claim while believing it was the truth, and it not be a lie.

But I know, many lefties like to turn false claims into all out lies to America!

Just ask any Bush hater.

soo..explain to me how this isn't a flamebait thread, if you posted the initial post asking for people to contribute where they think Bush has lied but your opinion of them is wrapped up in this post?

[demograph68]

False claims are perhaps just as bad as cold lies. Isn't that what makes propaganda work? (note: ALL propaganda)

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Bush lie:
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction."

AGAIN IN CONTEXT.

We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.

They HAVE found SOME WMDs. Just not STOCKPILES.

Next.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
soo..explain to me how this isn't a flamebait thread,

What? Me asking people to show where Bush has lied is flambait Lerk? I guess if I was Joe Lefty it might be construed is that.

if you posted the initial post asking for people to contribute where they think Bush has lied

No, Not where they THINK. But where he has ACTUALLY. As we have seen in here lots of people thinks Bush has lied about all kinds of things. Including your "Bush lied People died" bumper sticker idea.

but your opinion of them is wrapped up in this post?

My opinion of who? Who is this "them" ?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by demograph68:
False claims are perhaps just as bad as cold lies. Isn't that what makes propaganda work? (note: ALL propaganda)

Only if you know it's false to begin with.

Under that type of thinking. This article makes Clinton out to be a cold liar spewing propaganda.

When in fact, he was just relying information that was told to him.

[demograph68]

Zimphire, get this! Propaganda and politics coexist! WOW!

(btw, nice sig)

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Let me refresh your memory.

Bush tax lie:
"My jobs and growth plan would reduce tax rates for everyone who pays income tax.".

So can you prove that his plan wouldn't do such a thing?


BTW, I don't know anyone that filed their taxes correctly last year that had to pay MORE than when they did before Bush got into office.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

What does what matter? Knowing for sure if someone lied before accusing them? [/B]

I don't care if Bush is a liar or just chronically incorrect. With the pattern of falsehoods it is not unreasonable to conclude that he's lying.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Most of those are not lies on that page. Some COULD BE, but you'd have to be doing a lot of assuming.

Well, it's a 50/50 chance. Given the pattern of falsity I tend to think they're lies, but that is really only because I'm giving Bush the benefit of the doubt on intelligence, competence and sanity, if not on morality.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
prosecution of the war?

His handling and execution of it. From deciding to launch it to where we are today.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Highly subjective. Again, this thread isn't about your anti-Bush zealot silliness.

What is "subjective?" The reports of Bush claiming communication from God, or my conclusion that such a person is either telling the truth (i.e., special and blessed) or deluded if not lying? And what is silly here?

Originally posted by Zimphire:
LAAWL! Please show me some information on these claims. I am honestly curious.

This was reported by a publication in DC called Capitol Hill Blue, and then disseminated on the internet. I cautioned you about the credibility of this report -- it is unconfirmed. It's Drudge level, but is also consistent with Bush's reported mood swings and history of being a dry drunk.

[lurkalot]

Bush knew at the time he made those comments in that interview that those mobile facilities had nothing to do with WMD. Bush lied. You're blind.

[Sock Puppet Theater]

"Anyway, I was sitting there, and my chief of staff -- well, first of all, when we walked in the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And, you know, I thought it was pilot error. And I was amazed anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And, you know, something was wrong with the plane or, you know."
President George W. Bush
January 5, 2002

Source

This is, of course, impossible. He saw no such thing. There was no live shot of the first plane striking the tower. A somewhat trivial lie, but a lie all the same.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
I don't care if Bush is a liar or just chronically incorrect. With the pattern of falsehoods it is not unreasonable to conclude that he's lying.

I guess by that assumption. All presidents and most everyone are big fat liars.

Well, it's a 50/50 chance. Given the pattern of falsity I tend to think they're lies, but that is really only because I'm giving Bush the benefit of the doubt on intelligence, competence and sanity, if not on morality.

Yes, we know. you are an Anti-Bush zealot.

His handling and execution of it. From deciding to launch it to where we are today.

Of course, everyone could have done a better job! Just ask them. Easy to say.

What is "subjective?" The reports of Bush claiming communication from God, or my conclusion that such a person is either telling the truth (i.e., special and blessed) or deluded if not lying? And what is silly here?

Your assumption that he is deluded or lying. Both silly and baseless. AGAIN. We are talking about FACTS. Not "Maybeys", or "I feels" So far all you have given me is highly baseless and subjective opinions. That isn't what I asked for.

This was reported by a publication in DC called Capitol Hill Blue, and then disseminated on the internet. I cautioned you about the credibility of this report -- it is unconfirmed. It's Drudge level, but is also consistent with Bush's reported mood swings and history of being a dry drunk.

Heh, so where is the link? Sounds like a bunch of anti-Bush zealots having a verbal masturbation feast.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
So can you prove that his plan wouldn't do such a thing?

How 'bout this, then, Zim -- "Bush can't be trusted."

The deceptions are far more involved, comprehensive and subtle than just claiming "X is the case" while knowing "X is not the case."

On the subject of taxes, take for example the Bush statements that the average tax cut would be so-and-so many $$ per American. Well, yes, this was technically true. But the "average" used was the mean, rather than the median or mode -- which would have been far more accurate in conveying what the average Joe would get in tax cuts.

The average Bush quoted was far higher than Joe and Jane's tax cut because it included gynormous cuts for the wealthy that jacked up the mean from the couple hundred Joe and Jane would actually get. You can say, well, it was just a selection of one type of average over another, no harm, no "lie." But in fact the use of the mean instead of another average was used to sell the tax cut to the public and obscure the fact that Joe and Jane were getting nearly nothing while the richest people were getting tens if not hundreds of thousands in tax cuts each.

[demograph68]

I remember reading that somewhere.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Bush knew at the time he made those comments in that interview that those mobile facilities had nothing to do with WMD. Bush lied.

You got some proof he knew?

You're blind.

Well then show me. Give me some proof tough guy.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Sock Puppet Theater:
[Source

This is, of course, impossible. He saw no such thing. There was no live shot of the first plane striking the tower. A somewhat trivial lie, but a lie all the same.

Ok, where did he say it was the first plane? Nowhere. He was indeed speaking about the second one.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
How 'bout this, then, Zim -- "Bush can't be trusted."

Like I said, more fact, less opinion. I didn't post this asking for people's opinions. Or baseless accusations.

[Sock Puppet Theater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok, where did he say it was the first plane? Nowhere. He was indeed speaking about the second one.

"Anyway, I was sitting there, and my chief of staff -- well, first of all, when we walked in the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And, you know, I thought it was pilot error. And I was amazed anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And, you know, something was wrong with the plane or, you know."
President George W. Bush
January 5, 2002

And if you read the linked source you will see the question was "And what was the first thing that went through your head when you heard that a plane crashed into the first building?"

Bush was in the classroom when the second plane hit, btw. No TV there.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
Bush knew at the time he made those comments in that interview that those mobile facilities had nothing to do with WMD. Bush lied. You're blind.

He's not blind. He's just playing this game. What Zim is asking for here is incontrovertable proof that a specific statement was absolutely false and 100% known to be false by Bush when he uttered it. Nothing else matters in the rules of this game, and qualified statements, speculation or circumstantial reasoning are not allowed. By calling it a game, I'm not necessarily dissing it -- it may in fact be the well-intentioned way you operate, Zim. But if you applied one tenth of the skepticism to the statements and actions of your government as you do to every respondent in this thread, you'd have your own answers...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Sock Puppet Theater:
"Anyway, I was sitting there, and my chief of staff -- well, first of all, when we walked in the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And, you know, I thought it was pilot error. And I was amazed anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And, you know, something was wrong with the plane or, you know."
President George W. Bush
January 5, 2002

And if you read the linked source you will see the question was "And what was the first thing that went through your head when you heard that a plane crashed into the first building?"

There were two buildings SPT. Which one is the first?

I am sure Bush was referring to the footage he DID see. Still not a LIE anyway you see it.

But nice try.

And yes, you are right. It was petty.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
He's not blind. He's just playing this game. What Zim is asking for here is incontrovertable proof that a specific statement was absolutely false and 100% known to be false by Bush when he uttered it. Nothing else matters in the rules of this game, and qualified statements, speculation or circumstantial reasoning are not allowed. By calling it a game, I'm not necessarily dissing it -- it may in fact be the well-intentioned way you operate, Zim. But if you applied one tenth of the skepticism to the statements and actions of your government as you do to every respondent in this thread, you'd have your own answers...

brach no I said that to get rid of all the blind biased comments and all out baseless accusations.

If someone were to ask me if I could show times where Clinton ACTUALLY lied, I could EASILY do it without giving an opinion, or baseless accusation.

My point is, If Bush is SUCH the BIG liar some of you zealots claim him to be. Then proving that he is lying should be no real big task.

But as you see here, people are grasping for straws, and still trying to sell off opinion as fact.

[BlackGriffen]

*groans*

You've been taking lessons from Simey, haven't you Zimphire? I knew that this thread was going to be about two things: you insisting on the most rigorous and absolute proof that that Bush lied (nothing short of him admitting it himself would suffice, I'm sure), and you parsing Bush's words to the extreme - splitting hairs until you've made a wig from one hair.

I'm not going to wrestle with you on this endlessly. Suffice it to say that he said a lot of things in the 2000 campaign to suggest he was a moderate ("I'm a uniter, not a divider" etc), and has done almost the complete opposite at every turn. With few exceptions, from the environment to foreign policy, we were sold an administration that would have behaved drastically differently from the present one had there been one shred of truth in Bush's words at the time.

Humble foreign policy my butt.

I'll try one more time, this time there's 24 hrs difference:

Rueters:
President Bush said on Tuesday that abolishing the U.S. income tax system and replacing it with a national sales tax was an idea worth considering.

"It's an interesting idea," Bush told an "Ask President Bush" campaign forum here. "You know, I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously."

Associated Press:
Administration officials on Wednesday denied that President Bush is considering a national sales tax, a day after the Republican incumbent created a stir by calling such a tax "an interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously."

Oh, wait, that wasn't a lie, it was a gaffe.

Was this a lie? Of course not. One should confuse a lie with garden variety ignorance and/or stupidity.

BlackGriffen

[Sock Puppet Theater]

He states he saw footage before he entered the classroom (which is false). If it's a lie, it's a minor attempt to make himself seem more in touch, or to bond with his audience. If it's a mistake, then you should at least give the other candidate the benefit of the doubt for possibly misremembering things. Are you capable of that?

from this thread

Lerk: prove kerry is a liar.


Zimphire: He claimed he was places he wasn't. He claimed certain groups of people were at some of these places when they weren't until a bit later.

[Zimphire]

SPT again, he was claiming he saw a plane hit a building. Unless you can prove he didn't, you have no case.

You are making BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

This is why I said based on TRUTH.

You are being just as bad as you claim he is.

Come on guys, it can't be too hard. There should be TONS of lies backed up with proof right?

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
But as you see here, people are grasping for straws, and still trying to sell off opinion as fact.

Well, I think there's been a lot more mentioned and linked in here than mere opinion, but we clearly will not agree on that. I regret that I don't have the time to do the research as to the breadth of lies, but I don't, and you can just as easily search out sites that have done so as me (well, maybe not quite as easily, unless you frequent the lefty sites!) Anyhow, it doesn't much matter to me -- Bush's major sins are to me far worse than lying...

Incidentally, I'm no anti-Bush zealot, at least, my "zealotry" is not exclusive to Bush. As I recall, I was appalled with Clinton from jump street, appalled by the absolutely unnecessary, ostentatious and ultimately corrupt Inaguaral partying going on, while we had troops in the field, "in harm's way" in Somalia. And his inaction on the Rwandan genocide, for another example. Compared to these, the blue dress and the lies were small potatoes. My opinion of Kerry, for another, is not so great, either. I'm voting for him, of course, though. ABB. Bush promised a return of the grownups to the White House 4 years ago, and I intend to hold him to that promise.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
SPT again, he was claiming he saw a plane hit a building. Unless you can prove he didn't, you have no case.

You are making BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

This is why I said based on TRUTH.

You are being just as bad as you claim he is.

Come on guys, it can't be too hard. There should be TONS of lies backed up with proof right?

Zim, why don't you humor us all and post, chapter and verse, as an example one of the out and out lies you claim for Clinton? Give us a template to work from.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
SPT again, he was claiming he saw a plane hit a building. Unless you can prove he didn't, you have no case.

You are making BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

This is why I said based on TRUTH.

You are being just as bad as you claim he is.

Come on guys, it can't be too hard. There should be TONS of lies backed up with proof right?

If you believe it, then you'll see it. It goes both ways. It means that if you believe something hard enough, the "facts" will be there.

[Zimphire]

My whole point about this was, not to prove that Bush had lied. I KNOW Bush has probably lied in his life. Everyone has.

My point was to show that he wasn't the pathological liar that some leftists wants us to believe. That he actually isn't a "Big liar"

I think this thread proves that.

To say he has never lied is a big dish to swallow. I'd never try to say that.

But he isn't the "liar" some make him out to be.

That is all.

You can go on with your lives now.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Zim, why don't you humor us all and post, chapter and verse, as an example one of the out and out lies you claim for Clinton? Give us a template to work from.

LAWL All I have to say is "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You got some proof he knew?

Well then show me. Give me some proof tough guy.

THE PRESIDENT: We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.

Bush made these comments in the Polish interview on May 29, 2003. CNN ran a story with this Tests rule out suspect bio-labs
headline on April 15, 2003.

The buried labs U.S. troops found last week were not the mobile chemical and biological weapons labs one U.S. Army general suspected, according to the head of an expert team brought in to examine them.

If CNN knew by mid April how could Bush not know on May 29?