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BlackGriffen · Aug 19, 2004, 03:07 PM

To a man, members of the Iraqi Olympic delegation say they are glad that former Olympic committee head Uday Hussein, who was responsible for the serial torture of Iraqi athletes and_was killed_four_months_after the U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq_in March 2003, is no longer in power.

But they also find it offensive that Bush is using their team for his own gain when they do not support his administration's actions in Iraq. "My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq. What is freedom when I go to the [national] stadium and there are shootings on the road?"

This view is certainly the impression I get as the overall view in Iraq.

If Bush refuses to back down, I wonder if the team will volunteer for a Kerry ad?

BlackGriffen

ThinkInsane · Aug 19, 2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
CNNSI has the story. Excerpt:

This view is certainly the impression I get as the overall view in Iraq.

If Bush refuses to back down, I wonder if the team will volunteer for a Kerry ad?

BlackGriffen

Start corresponding with people that are over there, people with no agenda one way or the other, and you will get some different views on the opinions that Iraqi's hold. I can help put you in touch with folks on the ground over there if you'd like. Most of them are happy to get mail.

Logic · Aug 19, 2004, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Start corresponding with people that are over there, people with no agenda one way or the other, and you will get some different views on the opinions that Iraqi's hold. I can help put you in touch with folks on the ground over there if you'd like. Most of them are happy to get mail.

You mean the US soldiers that have no agenda what so ever?

ThinkInsane · Aug 19, 2004, 04:10 PM

Some, yes, some are physicians and nurses, some contractors. Just because a soldier is sent to war doesn't mean he has a political agenda. When you were deployed in the Balkans, did you have any agenda in the letters you sent home? I never did. When I wrote my family and friends, I told them what I saw, no spin, just what was going on. I know many soldiers that have no vested interest in slanting things one way or another. It won't keep them safe, it won't get them home any sooner, so what's the point?

BlackGriffen · Aug 19, 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Start corresponding with people that are over there, people with no agenda one way or the other, and you will get some different views on the opinions that Iraqi's hold. I can help put you in touch with folks on the ground over there if you'd like. Most of them are happy to get mail.

There are two problems with that method: the obsequiousness factor and the out of sight factor. The first comes about because people accustomed to a dictator who view the US as an occupier will be more likely to be, frankly, two-faced. Praising the troops and Americans to their faces, and cursing them when they turn their backs. The second is that those who very much dislike the American presence are probably going to avoid dealing with the Americans whenever possible.

IOW, sampling method biased, results invalid.

BlackGriffen

LoganCharles · Aug 19, 2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
CNNSI has the story. Excerpt:

This view is certainly the impression I get as the overall view in Iraq.

If Bush refuses to back down, I wonder if the team will volunteer for a Kerry ad?

BlackGriffen

This is why freedom un-earned is un-deserved.

ThinkInsane · Aug 19, 2004, 04:21 PM

So give me the unbiased method? Can you be certain that the journalists writing the story didn't have ten comments favorable to the US and picked to unfavorable ones because they better fit his story?

BlackGriffen · Aug 19, 2004, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
So give me the unbiased method? Can you be certain that the journalists writing the story didn't have ten comments favorable to the US and picked to unfavorable ones because they better fit his story?

Nice comeback! You are right. So, the moral of this story is - neither of us know squat. You've got secondhand anecdotes, I've got secondhand anecdotes, and we could go at it for pages, and not settle anything.

I think I'll pass.

BlackGriffen

Logic · Aug 19, 2004, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Some, yes, some are physicians and nurses, some contractors. Just because a soldier is sent to war doesn't mean he has a political agenda. When you were deployed in the Balkans, did you have any agenda in the letters you sent home? I never did. When I wrote my family and friends, I told them what I saw, no spin, just what was going on. I know many soldiers that have no vested interest in slanting things one way or another. It won't keep them safe, it won't get them home any sooner, so what's the point?

No, but I was very well aware of how the Bosnian Serbs felt. Even if they were some of the most friendly people I've met I could never be certain exactly why they acted they way they did. A soldier should just be a soldier doing his work. You never know who's a friend and who's a foe, some of those deployed to the Balkans found that out the hard way.

A soldier should focus on risk assessment and not be telling people around the world what he thinks that the people think about him. If you want to know that you should ask the people themselves.

Logic · Aug 19, 2004, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Nice comeback! You are right. So, the moral of this story is - neither of us know squat. You've got secondhand anecdotes, I've got secondhand anecdotes, and we could go at it for pages, and not settle anything.

I think I'll pass.

BlackGriffen

Very true.

ThinkInsane · Aug 19, 2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
Nice comeback! You are right. So, the moral of this story is - neither of us know squat. You've got secondhand anecdotes, I've got secondhand anecdotes, and we could go at it for pages, and not settle anything.

I think I'll pass.

BlackGriffen

Me neither

ThinkInsane · Aug 19, 2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
No, but I was very well aware of how the Bosnian Serbs felt. Even if they were some of the most friendly people I've met I could never be certain exactly why they acted they way they did. A soldier should just be a soldier doing his work. You never know who's a friend and who's a foe, some of those deployed to the Balkans found that out the hard way.

A soldier should focus on risk assessment and not be telling people around the world what he thinks that the people think about him. If you want to know that you should ask the people themselves.

I don't know about you, but my letters home were about my experiences, as well as the usual 'how is everyone at home' chit-chat. At no time did mail ever interfere with my ability to access risk. When a family member or friend would write and ask 'what�s it like there' I would answer the question. It had nothing to do with spreading it all over the world or anything else. Didn't you ever write letters home? Hell, I found a box of letters my grandfather had sent home from WW2 and Korea that were full of the same type of �this is what�s going on over here� type of stuff. The only guys I knew that didn�t write home were either functional illiterates or complete assholes.

BlackGriffen · Aug 19, 2004, 06:12 PM

This reminded my that Zogby actually did poll Iraq one time. The problem is that by now the poll is woefully out of date (links: here and here). It was performed almost exactly a year ago.

Anyone know of anything more recent?

BlackGriffen

Taliesin · Aug 20, 2004, 03:05 PM

Oh, oh, after the olympic games are over and the iraqi-team has won a medal, these soccer-players will return to Iraq, and then be quickly transfered to Abu Ghraib for further "questioning" (aka torturing) as they are obviously terrorist-sympathisers.

Either you are with us or against us.

Taliesin

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 20, 2004, 03:41 PM

Let's give them Uday again.

lil'babykitten · Aug 20, 2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Oh, oh, after the olympic games are over and the iraqi-team has won a medal, these soccer-players will return to Iraq, and then be quickly transfered to Abu Ghraib for further "questioning" (aka torturing) as they are obviously terrorist-sympathisers.

Either you are with us or against us.

Taliesin

idjeff · Aug 20, 2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Oh, oh, after the olympic games are over and the iraqi-team has won a medal, these soccer-players will return to Iraq, and then be quickly transfered to Abu Ghraib for further "questioning" (aka torturing) as they are obviously terrorist-sympathisers.

Either you are with us or against us.

Taliesin

WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you have some sort of insider info....Oh, I get it...you think that since they said something derrogatory against America....oh yeah, that's what'll happen.

If it does, I'll kiss your ass.

Spliffdaddy · Aug 20, 2004, 11:40 PM

whoa now.

Don't hurt Taliesin.

We need him around for a handy benchmark by which to measure terrorists.

Without him, we'd just be guessing.