[BRussell]

http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/sellout.mov

From here.

[Spliffdaddy]

ouch.

that hurt.

no damned wonder kerry is freaking out over those ads.

Somebody should film a documentary about Kerry's exploits in Vietnam. They could name the movie Fahrenheit 527;revenge by committee

[CreepingDeth]

Finally, a more post-war related ad.

Debate the war stuff all you want, there's solid proof of his shenanigans in '71.

[zigzag]

I suspect that that one's gonna hurt more than the first one, because like F911 it relies on actual film footage of Kerry and evokes all the negative connotations of that era, including the longhaired, bearded guy sitting behind him. And as BR has pointed out, he uses that irritatingly pretentious Mr. Howell voice. It's too bad because, apart from some of the hyperbole he engaged in, he was mostly on target: it was wrong to prolong that war.

[CreepingDeth]

Are you saying his charge were correct? Listen, it was a noble cause, and who knows how the Cold War would've turned out if we weren't in there. I'd be more aggressive if I had the chance, but that's not the point. When we left, do you know what happened?
Yes, this will sting very much.
That's why this is so expesnive. They've been bought up. And there's no debate on this topic. Millions of people saw this and remember the events. THIS will piss some people off.

Done for tonight

800th Post

[zigzag]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Are you saying his charge were correct? Listen, it was a noble cause, and who knows how the Cold War would've turned out if we weren't in there. I'd be more aggressive if I had the chance, but that's not the point. When we left, do you know what happened?
Yes, this will sting very much.
That's why this is so expesnive. They've been bought up. And there's no debate on this topic. Millions of people saw this and remember the events. THIS will piss some people off.

Done for tonight

800th Post

No, I'm not saying his charges were correct - that's what I meant by hyperbole. He overstated things, if not deliberately, then recklessly, and he's admitted it. But I would point out two things: (a) war crimes were committed, but he addressed the issue poorly, and (b) it's very difficult to understand the tenor of those times if you weren't there. It was very difficult, and makes today's controversies seem tame in comparison. We were dealing with one lying administration after another, Democrat and Republican both. Young men who couldn't even vote were being sent to die - involuntarily - for reasons that were dubious at best and corrupt at worst. Kerry was trying to save the lives of fellow soldiers, not endanger them. I understand the resentment it generated, and he might have been a politically ambitious a**hole, but I respect the fact that he spoke out. It took balls and conviction and was not a particularly self-serving thing to do at the time. It's too bad that he hasn't shown the same degree of conviction in his career in general, but show me a politician who has and I'll buy you dinner.

Yeah, I know what happened when we left - I watched it on TV. That doesn't change my opinion that it should not have been prolonged.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Of course the war shouldn’t have been prolonged.
That’s still no excuse to take the approach of calling the soldiers war criminals.

Young men who couldn't even vote were being sent to die - involuntarily - for reasons that were dubious at best and corrupt at worst. Kerry was trying to save the lives of fellow soldiers, not endanger them.

This is what makes Kerry’s actions even worse. He DID endanger them. Those ‘young men who couldn’t even vote, who were being sent to die- involuntarily’- on top of all the other crap those folks had to deal with, they ALSO had Kerry calling THEM war criminals.

If Kerry was trying to ‘save their lives’, he totally went about it the wrong way by making those very young men the focal point of his accusations. It’s also easily argued that he put their lives in even more danger since his words were blatant propaganda that gave the enemy an excuse to mistreat POWs. “Hey, one of your own says you guys are war criminals!” How is that not helping the enemy, and helping save the troops?

I wouldn’t have a problem with Kerry merely disagreeing with the Johnson and Nixon administrations. But the asinine tact he took of venting his anti-war stance by selling out the very people who had to go and slog it out, and calling them war criminals, was just plain wrong.

[Dr.HermanG.]

And little by little the cowardly POS gets roasted a bit more. I can't wait for the October surprise.

Won't be long before Kerry's done. Suppost among the military and veterans is dropping like a rock. Stick a fork in him.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Of course the war shouldn’t have been prolonged.
That’s still no excuse to take the approach of calling the soldiers war criminals.

This is what makes Kerry’s actions even worse. He DID endanger them. Those ‘young men who couldn’t even vote, who were being sent to die- involuntarily’- on top of all the other crap those folks had to deal with, they ALSO had Kerry calling THEM war criminals.

If Kerry was trying to ‘save their lives’, he totally went about it the wrong way by making those very young men the focal point of his accusations. It’s also easily argued that he put their lives in even more danger since his words were blatant propaganda that gave the enemy an excuse to mistreat POWs. “Hey, one of your own says you guys are war criminals!” How is that not helping the enemy, and helping save the troops?

I wouldn’t have a problem with Kerry merely disagreeing with the Johnson and Nixon administrations. But the asinine tact he took of venting his anti-war stance by selling out the very people who had to go and slog it out, and calling them war criminals, was just plain wrong.

Perhaps, but that's why I mentioned the tenor of the times. The desire to end the bloodshed and dishonesty was extremely intense, so intense that people sometimes went to regrettable extremes. But at the time it seemed the only way to get the attention of the politicians and the public. Kerry made an error in judgment but I'm not prepared to condemn him for it, no more than I'm prepared to condemn Bush for avoiding the draft (which brings to mind another reason things were so tense at the time - a lot of the men getting sent over were ones who couldn't find an out).

I think it would be overstatement to say that Kerry called all American soldiers war criminals, but I understand the resentment it generated and agree that he should've handled it differently.

[macvillage.net]

Well there's no question war crimes were commited in Vietnam.

As the full intelegence info released under FOIA shows, it was only some soldiers (not all as the ad indicates). But it's also pretty clear since every country/organization monitoring vietnam has certified that stuff happened.

So that's a non-issue.

Unless anyone here was there, and saw enough of the vietnam theatre (being multiple places at one time) to safely say it didn't happen.


What I noticed is that it didn't say anything about the sponsorship of people who testified in the add (unpaid, paid, scripted, unscripted). I'm curious why?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Well there's no question war crimes were commited in Vietnam.

Ya think?

It is the degree of war crimes that matters, not whether they happened or not. John Kerry called them "widespread."

Once again John Kerry is lying, distorting, or manipulating facts. If you guys dislike Bush so much then it's astonishing you can support Kerry.

[Spliffdaddy]

Apparently Kerry never reported any of those "widespread" war crimes he witnessed.

Too busy shooting wounded unarmed vietcong?

lol.

[voodoo]

ZzzzZZZzzzz

You U.S.Aricans are boring me to tears here. What was the point of that commercial again? What was the message? Oh but there wasn't any. All it said was that the people (old geezers) who appeared in the commercial don't want Kerry for president because.. wait for it.. Kerry opposed and vocally spoke against the Vietnam war after he came home. After serving there. Sigh. So what will the next commercial tell us? That the sun will rise again tomorrow?

[Spliffdaddy]

actually those guys are saying kerry is a liar.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
actually those guys are saying kerry is a liar.

and? I suppose given enough money YOU could make a commercial where you call Kerry a liar. this is still the biggest snoozefest of the month.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Apparently Kerry never reported any of those "widespread" war crimes he witnessed.

Too busy shooting wounded unarmed vietcong?

lol.

He seemed to be proud of the unarmed villagers and water buffalo he murdered so that he could get a clearer shot of an alleged machine gun nest.

[BRussell]

If you think what Kerry did to Vietnamese women and children is bad, just think what he'll do to the terrorists!

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by voodoo:
and? I suppose given enough money YOU could make a commercial where you call Kerry a liar. this is still the biggest snoozefest of the month.

I'd do it for free, actually.

But then, my words wouldn't be as powerful as those of the folks who served alongside Kerry.

That 'Swiftboat' ad absolutely owns Kerry's ass.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Ya think?

It is the degree of war crimes that matters, not whether they happened or not. John Kerry called them "widespread."

Once again John Kerry is lying, distorting, or manipulating facts. If you guys dislike Bush so much then it's astonishing you can support Kerry.

Nobody ever debated them being widespread until now. It's been fact for decades now.

The question is what new evidence is there to say otherwise? I've yet to see anything other than a campaign ad. And that's not really evidence. It's a mere statement. There's no bonifide evidence in the ad that contradicts the findings of all nations and groups monitoring vietnam at the time. Perhaps there will be in coming days? We shall see.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd do it for free, actually.

But then, my words wouldn't be as powerful as those of the folks who served alongside Kerry.

That 'Swiftboat' ad absolutely owns Kerry's ass.

I reckoned you would.

I do disagree that those who served in Vietnam like Kerry have anything more to say about his attitude and action against the war than you do. I don't see why their word should hold any more weight.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I don't see why their word should hold any more weight.

Because these vietnam vets who were held in captivity were placed in jeopardy, because of Kerry's peacenik campaign. The USA is in a much more serious war than vietnam, and we don't need any war time president who gives aid & comfort to the enemies. We need somebody who is going to kick butt.

The ad, by the way is pretty crushing, as far as Kerry is concerned. That's why he's going apesh*t, in his response to these ads.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Nobody ever debated them being widespread until now. It's been fact for decades now.

The question is what new evidence is there to say otherwise? I've yet to see anything other than a campaign ad. And that's not really evidence. It's a mere statement. There's no bonifide evidence in the ad that contradicts the findings of all nations and groups monitoring vietnam at the time. Perhaps there will be in coming days? We shall see.

I have yet to hear any of my Vietnamese friends over the past two decades ever talk about this. Were the problems widespread as Hanoi Kerry alleged then either he's lying or every single Vietnamese family I have ever known is lying.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Because these vietnam vets who were held in captivity were placed in jeopardy, because of Kerry's peacenik campaign. The USA is in a much more serious war than vietnam, and we don't need any war time president who gives aid & comfort to the enemies. We need somebody who is going to kick butt.

The ad, by the way is pretty crushing, as far as Kerry is concerned. That's why he's going apesh*t, in his response to these ads.

No kidding, stick a fork in him. Had he not made his Vietnam "service" such a central theme to his election then perhaps it would have come back to haunt him in the same way as all the dead villagers, unarmed men, and women he killed probably do at night.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Because these vietnam vets who were held in captivity were placed in jeopardy, because of Kerry's peacenik campaign.

Naturally they have a grudge to bear with Kerry if they think he jeaopardized their lives with his anti-war activities. Makes their words weigh even less than Spliffdaddy's.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Makes their words weigh even less than Spliffdaddy's.

And you are of course in no position to determine that. The voters will determine how important the words of these massive amounts of vietnam vets who are coming and speaking out, will weigh against the word of Kerry.

[BRussell]

You Bushies just have so much invested in this election, that I'm afraid for your mental health if he loses re-election.

Maybe it just hasn't sunk in yet, but in all likelihood, Bush is going to lose. No modern president has ever come back from a deficit like this before. Maybe Truman. And today, the voters are much more hardened in their opinions than they probably ever have been in the past. Bush will have pulled off a miracle come back if he wins this election.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
I have yet to hear any of my Vietnamese friends over the past two decades ever talk about this. Were the problems widespread as Hanoi Kerry alleged then either he's lying or every single Vietnamese family I have ever known is lying.

American service men from many different branches of the U.S. armed forces committed war crimes in at least three different countries during that conflict and there is compelling evidence that some of those were not only condoned but U.S. policy at the time. How is that not widespread?
Those vets who spoke up about it should be commended although I personally think quite a few of them should have spent considerable amounts of time in Leavenworth for the acts they admitted to have committed themselves. Possibly including Kerry.

The U.S election race this year appears to be between a somewhat repentant war criminal from the Vietnam era who may or may not replace another unrepentant war criminal who started the Iraq war of aggression in March 2003. Maybe they can both be discredited enough to have them replaced on the ballots before November? Wishful thinking.
If not, I'd rather see Kerry than Bush (and his cronies) for the next White House resident.

[daimoni]

.

[BlackGriffen]

Kerry fights back (press release from the most partisan source you could hope to find):

As a desperate President Bush and Karl Rove once again resort to the smear page of their campaign playbook, the Kerry-Edwards campaign today launched a new Internet ad that will give viewers across the country a severe case of Déjà vu.

The ad, titled “Old Tricks,” features Senator John McCain rebuking then candidate Bush during a 2000 Larry King debate for refusing to disavow or condemn hateful and vicious attacks on McCain’s military record during the South Carolina Republican primary.

McCain’s comments will ring true for Americans who are once again seeing their Commander-in-Chief dishonor America’s veterans through his silent support of the group “Swift Boat Veterans for Bush” while they smear John Kerry’s military service and the service of those who served in great danger with him on the Navy’s Swift Boats.

Beginning today, the Kerry-Edwards campaign will begin a systematic campaign to expose the president’s tactics, with a special emphasis on the veterans community. “Old Tricks” will be emailed to 200,000 veterans activists who will share it in their communities, posted on veterans websites and emailed to the entire Kerry online community of well over 1 million supporters.
[...]
Senator McCain has called the television ad run by these Bush supporters ‘dishonest and dishonorable,’ and called on President Bush to condemn it._ Thus far, Bush has sat silent.

SCRIPT:

McCain: Let me tell you what really went over the line. Governor Bush had an event, and he paid for it, and standing, and stood next to the spokesman for a fringe veterans group._ That fringe veteran said that John McCain had abandoned the veterans._ Now I don’t know how if you can understand this George, but that really hurts.

Bush: Yeah.

McCain: That really hurts. And so five United State senators, Vietnam veterans, heroes. Some of them really incredible heroes, wrote George a letter and said “apologize.” You should, you should be ashamed.

The video.

Ouch.

BG

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
And you are of course in no position to determine that. The voters will determine how important the words of these massive amounts of vietnam vets who are coming and speaking out, will weigh against the word of Kerry.

Of course I do, from my point of view. Did you think there was a right answer? 'Fraid not.

I'm sure most voters will see it my way. That 'swiftboatvets' group has already made its name synonymous with lies and propagande with their last commercial. They are not a part of the equation any more. They are preaching to the choir. That won't win a single vote I'm afraid.

[spacefreak]

The fact that Kerry refuses to fill out Pentagon form SF180 and authorize a complete release of ALL his military records is telling. If he is telling the truth, he would do this.

Instead, he demands that the little guys be shut-up, that the book be banned from bookstores, and that the FEC "scold" Bush for not shutting these veterans up.

All you liberals claim to be in favor of free speech and tolerance - that is, as long as those who speak say what the libs want them to say.

SwiftVets spend $100,000 on an initial ad buy, and all of a sudden, the Democrats are screaming "high crimes" while they conveniently ignore the $62 million MoveOn has spent in the last year claiming that GWB is evil.

You all can smear the SwiftVets all you like. It's not going to change the fact that Kerry has refused to answer the charges for over 2 weeks.

If Kerry can't handle a bunch of old veterans, how in the hell is he going to stand up to terrorism?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by voodoo:
They are preaching to the choir. That won't win a single vote I'm afraid.

Not true at all. I saw a poll on the news today, where about half (50%) of Americans either believe Kerry exaggerated his Vietnam record or flat out lied about it. The amount of people who believe he was truthful is in the minority.

[daimoni]

.

[daimoni]

.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by daimoni:


Finally. The Democratic Party campaign is beginning to find their testicles and go after these thugs.

It's going to end up hurting them, since Kerry is lying and stating that Bush is somehow connected to these swift guys. Lying is a bad strategy.

[daimoni]

.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Not true at all. I saw a poll on the news today, where about half (50%) of Americans either believe Kerry exaggerated his Vietnam record or flat out lied about it. The amount of people who believe he was truthful is in the minority.

I really doubt that will have any impact on his support against Bush, since that man has pretty much no military record. Exaggerated or no, Kerry looks far better and is much more sympathetic than Bush. The big picture. Look at the big picture. A nobody from Massachusets. liberal like no other candidate for decades and filthy rich like Bush is guaranteed to win Bush a sitting president.

I'm LMAO over here.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Source please. Was it CBN/700 Club or Fox "News"?

I don't recall who conducted the poll, but it was on fox, not that it really matters one bit. A poll is a poll.

[macvillage.net]

From CNN

The ad does not include Kerry's preface, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a Vietnam veterans conference. Instead, a swift boat group member refers to the statements as "accusations" Kerry made against Vietnam veterans.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Finally. The Democratic Party campaign is beginning to find their testicles and go after these thugs.

Still no answering of the charges, or authorizing the release of all his military records, by Kerry. Still no explanation of his "I was in Cambodia" fantasy.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by voodoo:

I'm LMAO over here.

You know zilch about American politics and we'll see whos LMAO soon enough. See, your opinion and your vote doesn't count or matter one bit, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of things.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I don't recall who conducted the poll, but it was on fox, not that it really matters one bit. A poll is a poll.

Not really, but hey. You're free to believe to believe what you will. That is one of the benefits of being an U.S.Arican. Oh wait or French. Or Spanish. Or German..

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
You know zilch about American politics and we'll see whos LMAO soon enough. See, your opinion and your vote doesn't count or matter one bit, when it comes down to the nitty gritty of things.

Thank you for that projection.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You're free to believe to believe what you will. That is one of the benefits of being an U.S.Arican. Oh wait or French. Or Spanish. Or German..

You're welcome.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You're welcome.

Yes thanks for freeing Spain in WWII.. oh wait!

[PacHead]

Originally posted by voodoo:
That is one of the benefits of being an U.S.Arican.

I don't need any spanicks to tell me about American politics.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by PacHead:
A poll is a poll.

Good one

[daimoni]

.

[Spliffdaddy]

Speaking of polls, Kerry has taken a beating...

At the current rate, by November Ralph Nader will have more support than Kerry.


A new CBS News poll shows that while the national race is virtually even, Kerry's support has fallen nine points among veterans this month.

Kerry, who was tied with Bush among vets, 46 percent to 46 percent, after his Boston confab, now trails Bush, 55 percent to 37 percent, among the group.

The poll, conducted Sunday through Thursday, also shows Kerry's support among independents slipping. It has Kerry at 44 percent, Bush at 39 percent and Nader at 4 percent. Kerry led the president 50 percent to 33 percent with independents in the postconvention poll, with Nader at 7 percent at the time. The margin of error is plus or minus three percentage points.

article: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...fri/index.html

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I don't need any spanicks to tell me about American politics.

you thought I was here to cater to your needs?

hope you're not too disappointed!