[Spliffdaddy]

"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

"Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.

Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

*SMACKDOWN*

[lil'babykitten]

[BRussell]

How Dole described getting his first Purple Heart in his book:

"As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

[djohnson]

Good article!

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

"Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.

Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

*SMACKDOWN*

Not much to say here. Except it is true. Bob Dole wants John Kerry to apologize. Meh.

[deedar]

Originally posted by BRussell:

How Dole described getting his first Purple Heart in his book:

"As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

Hmmm - I didn't know Dole's injuries were "self-inflicted"...

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Not much to say here. Except it is true. Bob Dole wants John Kerry to apologize. Meh.

I'd say Dole owes America appology for his patriotic action:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...=Google+Search

Especially to the city of DC cost millions in tourism alone.

[Spliffdaddy]

I miss the heroes of the 104th Congress.

Thanks, Newt Gingrich!



And remember, kids, if the government is "shut down" - it can't spend money.

We should shut it down for 10 months out of the year.

PS, what did that link have to do with Bob Dole? It didn't even relate to DC tourism.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I miss the heroes of the 104th Congress.

Thanks, Newt Gingrich!



And remember, kids, if the government is "shut down" - it can't spend money.

We should shut it down for 10 months out of the year.

PS, what did that link have to do with Bob Dole? It didn't even relate to DC tourism.

That whole shutdown thing cost DC millions in lost tourism. Remember it was done over the christmas holiday intentionally for that reason.

The government lost millions trying to rebound from it's losses, and catch up with what it missed.

It costed *much* more than it saved as it proved afterwards.

What ever happened to financial accountability?

[Spliffdaddy]

um. Congress had a budget ready to sign.

Clinton wouldn't sign it.

At the time, I remember most folks blaming Clinton for the shutdown.

At any rate, it was a good learning experience. We learned that nothing bad really happens when the government shuts down.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

And so the truth about Dole's war record is considerably less than awe-inspiring. Yet the myth endures, and with the candidate running on the contrast between his and Clinton's military record, his campaign isn't eager to give a more accurate account. Dole, at the behest of his handlers, is less reticent about his service than in the past, but he mainly speaks about his wound and rehabilitation. He has passed up several opportunities to correct the exaggerated versions in biographies, and in the case of his self-wounding has even approved a sanitized account in which his maladroitly hurled grenade goes unnoted.
-The Nation, August 1996

You could substitute Dole for Kerry and Clinton for Bush in the above, and it's all virtually the same thing.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
We learned that nothing bad really happens when the government shuts down.

Wait, didn't the sky fall that day?

[tie]

"John Kerry's a hero," Mr. Dole told Wolf Blitzer. "But what I will always quarrel about are the Purple Hearts. I mean, the first one, whether he ought to have a Purple Heart - he got two in one day, I think. And he was out of there in less than four months, because three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Mr. Kerry did not receive two Purple Hearts for events of the same day. He received them for the events of Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and March 13, 1969. Mr. Kerry often acknowledges that his wounds were not severe, but he still has shrapnel in his left thigh from the firefight that led to his second Purple Heart.

Dole is a liar and needs to apologize to all Vietnam veterans.

[Spliffdaddy]

nah, just one of 'em.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
nah, just one of 'em.

Well I suppose if Dole apologized to one of them it would be a start. Baby steps.

Wise words spliffdaddy.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
um. Congress had a budget ready to sign.

Clinton wouldn't sign it.

At the time, I remember most folks blaming Clinton for the shutdown.

At any rate, it was a good learning experience. We learned that nothing bad really happens when the government shuts down.

Considering millions of dollars means nothing in your tourist driven economy.

May want to see what happens to cities where signifigant economic activity is pure tourism.


I was there during the shutdown. One of the great things about it was the ability to walk into places to eat with no wait.

But those empty tables on one of the busiest days of the year isn't a good thing. Being one of 4-5 tables in place that should have a 2-3hr wait isn't good.

But according to you... taking the economy down is a good thing.

Interesting thing to note.

So I take it the Great Depression was a wonderful thing?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

"Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.

Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

*SMACKDOWN*

[PacHead]

Kerry should release his war records, so he can clarify his muddy record.

Is he a war hero ?

Is he a war criminal ?

Is he a liar ?

What is he exactly ?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Kerry should release his war records, so he can clarify his muddy record.

Is he a war hero ?

Is he a war criminal ?

Is he a liar ?

What is he exactly ?

Wont happen.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Kerry should release his war records, so he can clarify his muddy record.

Is he a war hero ?

Is he a war criminal ?

Is he a liar ?

What is he exactly ?

As if even Kerry knows

Maybe Kerry's waiting for the statue of limitations to run out so he can't be prosecuted for war crimes.

[macvillage.net]

It's about as likely as Bush 'finding' the rest of his records, detailing his career in the national guard.

[daimoni]

.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Or the Democrat way: tell a lie, and, if caught, say "depends on the meaning of 'is'." Or just blame the Republicans because you did something wrong and it wasn't really your fault. Or just tell another lie....

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by daimoni:
And remember, kids... "if it ain't fixed, break it".

It's the Repuglican Way.

NO, the republican way is to drive up spending, then vacate the whitehouse for 8 years to let Clinton fix it....

then claim Bush fixed the budget in 2 months in office.

[Dr.HermanG.]

The Democrat way is to respond to Dole and say "Kerry has shrapnel in his leg!!!!! OMG!111! VTOE FUER MEEEEE!" to respond to Dole (who lost use of his arm in WWII).

'Cos we all know how much of a life changing impact that speck of metal has on Kerry's ability to be physical in his activities

For all we know there isn't any shrapnel there.

[macvillage.net]

It's interesting how Dole has intimate knowledge of the records, and exactly what went on in Vietnam. Though Dole was in WWII, not Vietnam (as apparantly incorrectly reported earlier by one of the media outlets and retracted soon after).

McCain was in Vietnam. But according to Dole, he has more experience than McCain on Vietnam.

It strikes me strange. Dole is taking shots at McCain as well as Kerry.

Not like this is new for Dole. But still strange.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Is he a war hero ?

Is he a war criminal ?

Is he a liar ?

What is he exactly ?

Yes.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Dole wasn't the one crapping on the memories and backs of all those in uniform 30 years ago. Dole didn't run home after getting barely superficial wounds 30 years ago then have the audacity to ask to be the commander in chief this year.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Considering millions of dollars means nothing in your tourist driven economy.

May want to see what happens to cities where signifigant economic activity is pure tourism.


I was there during the shutdown. One of the great things about it was the ability to walk into places to eat with no wait.

But those empty tables on one of the busiest days of the year isn't a good thing. Being one of 4-5 tables in place that should have a 2-3hr wait isn't good.

But according to you... taking the economy down is a good thing.

Interesting thing to note.

So I take it the Great Depression was a wonderful thing?

Of course not. But why is the blame/credit/whatever being assigned to Dole now? If I recall correctly, the shutdown happened because of a budget which managed to get past Congress, all the way to Clinton's desk. As the one who signed it, he, and no one else, is the immediate cause of the shutdown. And before you ask, I was also in the area during that time.

The real question is, what does that mean? Was Clinton forced to shut down the government in order to avert something even worse? If so, then his causing the shutdown is to his credit, not his detriment. On the other hand, did he cause the shutdown merely out of partisan politics? In that case it would certainly be blameworthy.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Dole wasn't the one crapping on the memories and backs of all those in uniform 30 years ago. Dole didn't run home after getting barely superficial wounds 30 years ago then have the audacity to ask to be the commander in chief this year.

Actually Dole was chalanged as well:

Clutz vs. Hero
Intentional injury vs. Hero.

His issue simply was the records were never made. Not that they were destroyed or missing. So that was the end of the debate. Most of those who were with him were dead or too old to remember anything anyway.


Bush wasn't exactly patriotic during vietnam. He abandon the national guard (which his father put him in specially) to help campaign... while others were dying in vietnam.

Bush's right place would have been with a draft card in his hand, reporting for duty to ship to vietnam.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Bush's right place would have been with a draft card in his hand, reporting for duty to ship to vietnam.

Versus filing to go overseas to best avoid it completely as Kerry did?

Intentions are just as important as actions in my notebook. At least Bush didn't stand before a Congressional committee, smear all those in uniform, lie, then want to run for CIC 30-40 years later.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Bush wasn't exactly patriotic during vietnam.

Bush's right place would have been with a draft card in his hand, reporting for duty to ship to vietnam.

All this from a guy who dodges his own state government because he doesn't want to serve on jury duty.

Since you are constantly bitching at Bush in these Kerry threads, why don't we bring up Clinton. What was his service record during Vietnam? How patriotic was he during this time? Why was he protesting against the war on foreign soil?

And did Bush lead anti-war rallies like Kerry? Was he hanging out with Jane Fonda at the time? Was Bush in attendance at a meeting where plots to assainate US Senators was discussed?

How many fellow guardsmen have come out and stated that Bush is "Unfit for Command"?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Versus filing to go overseas to best avoid it completely as Kerry did?

Intentions are just as important as actions in my notebook. At least Bush didn't stand before a Congressional committee, smear all those in uniform, lie, then want to run for CIC 30-40 years later.

You may want to take a look at how Bush smeared our nations reputation in office for the last 4 years.

When he entered office we had great relations with most of the free world.

Now most of the free world couldn't give a crap if 9/11 took place again.

He's made us look like @sses in front of the entire globe... a job well done.

Originally posted by spacefreak:
All this from a guy who dodges his own state government because he doesn't want to serve on jury duty.

Since you are constantly bitching at Bush in these Kerry threads, why don't we bring up Clinton. What was his service record during Vietnam? How patriotic was he during this time? Why was he protesting against the war on foreign soil?

And did Bush lead anti-war rallies like Kerry? Was he hanging out with Jane Fonda at the time? Was Bush in attendance at a meeting where plots to assainate US Senators was discussed?

How many fellow guardsmen have come out and stated that Bush is "Unfit for Command"?

CLinton wasn't any better.

But to say Bush was better is laughable. His daddy got him into the national guard (want to bet there was a kickback of some form there?). Then he abandoned it, and his fellow guardmen to go campaign.

First cheating his way out of the draft... then abandoning his free lunch... real patriotic.

THEN, he calls himself a veteran.

Meanwhile, he never even saw combat, nor intended to, nor was in the path to.

Anyone on this board is more of a vet than him.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
You may want to take a look at how Bush smeared our nations reputation in office for the last 4 years.

Exactly what does that have to do with Kerry sitting in front of Congress and calling just about every person in uniform a war criminal?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But to say Bush was better is laughable. His daddy got him into the national guard (want to bet there was a kickback of some form there?). Then he abandoned it, and his fellow guardmen to go campaign.

Maybe you ought to read a bit more sometimes.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Maybe you ought to read a bit more sometimes.

Thanks for the article. It's a good one.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Thanks for the article. It's a good one.

It also essentially confirms what macvillage said: That Bush got strings pulled to get into the TANG in order to avoid Vietnam and then skipped out for a political campaign.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by BRussell:
It also essentially confirms what macvillage said: That Bush got strings pulled to get into the TANG in order to avoid Vietnam and then skipped out for a political campaign.

Just how much TANG was Bush getting into at the time?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by BRussell:
It also essentially confirms what macvillage said: That Bush got strings pulled to get into the TANG in order to avoid Vietnam and then skipped out for a political campaign.

So did just about anyone else's son who was anyone of importance in Texas or most other states at the time. It's not like GWB was the first or only one to do this.

The only thing different about Kerry or Bush is that Kerry failed to get the deferment he was seeking. At least Bush didn't run away overseas or want to run away overseas to avoid his service.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by BRussell:
It also essentially confirms what macvillage said: That Bush got strings pulled to get into the TANG in order to avoid Vietnam and then skipped out for a political campaign.

Right, but what he (macvillage) consistantly leaves out with his rants is that Bush served dutifully for 4+ years before the campaign/transfer-to-Alabama/request to leave early for Harvard Business School shenanigans began.

The article also stated that (1) Bush wanted to be a pilot, which he couldn't do if he waited to be drafted as a lowly infantryman, and (2) Bush had volunteered for overseas flight duty, but didn't have the prerequisite 1,000 hours of flight time at that point to qualify.

Regardless, I enjoyed the article, especially the piece about Bush being different than the rest of the HMBA crowd - they're all drinking Chivas and smoking Benson & Hedges while he's dipping Copenhagen and putting down some Wild Turkey. Maybe that's because I enjoy some bourbon and a good dip from time to time.

I also enjoyed reading about his working in an inner-city center for the underpriviledged.

The one thing that could have been funny is if GHWB had actually accepted his drunk son's "mano-a-mano" challenge and shown him who his daddy was.

Again, good article.

[zigzag]

Sounds like Dole has had one too many Viagras.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...&printer=1

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Maybe you ought to read a bit more sometimes.

In Business that would be breach of ethics to allow him in. A superior pushing to get their child in like that wouldn't be tolerated.

But a republican in texas is exempt from ethics.

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Exactly what does that have to do with Kerry sitting in front of Congress and calling just about every person in uniform a war criminal?

He didn't call every person in uniform a war criminal. He called those who commited such crimes war criminals. May want to read his statements.

Bush said Iraq had WMD, and used it as a starting point to go to war. Ends up he made the story up... he needed something to justify using the battle plans he created just weeks after entering office (and sidetracked after 9/11 made other things a higher priority). And lead many soldiers in uniform to their deaths. A real hero.

Now if that was another country, the US would demand the CIC be brought to Den Hague and stand trial. But since it's Bush, were supposed to forgive and forget.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
He didn't call every person in uniform a war criminal. He called those who commited such crimes war criminals. May want to read his statements.

His statements claim that it was widespread and at all levels of command. Then he claims on television that he never said any of it!

Bush said Iraq had WMD, and used it as a starting point to go to war. Ends up he made the story up... he needed something to justify using the battle plans he created just weeks after entering office (and sidetracked after 9/11 made other things a higher priority). And lead many soldiers in uniform to their deaths. A real hero.

The war in Iraq was not over. It was never over until this point because there was never a peace treaty or end to hostilities save for a cease fire which Iraq consistently violated.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The article also stated that (1) Bush wanted to be a pilot, which he couldn't do if he waited to be drafted as a lowly infantryman,

LOWLY infantryman?

Son, you are talking about the Queen of Battle. Show some respect.

[Zimphire]

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
LOWLY infantryman?

Son, you are talking about the Queen of Battle. Show some respect.

I should have put "lowly" in quotes, for I was being sarcastic... the last thing I wanted was to disrespect to those who have served, including the self-proclaimed "Queen of Battle".

Bush (in the article) stated: "I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
His statements claim that it was widespread and at all levels of command. Then he claims on television that he never said any of it!

Bush claims he was misinformed because he used intelegence that was only rumor within the CIA, not verified fact.

If I went to my boss with some rumor, and told him it was fact, and it turned out wrong... I'd be in serious trouble. I have a resonsibility to have solid evidence behind everything.

Heck every Business has to sign that their financial statements are valid and correct.

Now we are going to hold Steve Jobs liable for any accounting error made at Apple, despite the fact that it's physically impossible for him (or any CEO) to review and honestly know if there was any fudging.

But Bush is allowed to intentionally take something that's a mere rumor, and pass it off as fact to the congress, and the nation?

A slight double standard from a position that's supposed to be one of the highest in the world. If our president doesn't have any accountability... why even have a president?

Why was Clinton impeached? If the president has no accountability what does it matter what it does?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

Now we are going to hold Steve Jobs liable for any accounting error made at Apple, despite the fact that it's physically impossible for him (or any CEO) to review and honestly know if there was any fudging.

If it's impossible to hold SJ accountable for a small company such as Apple then it's even more impossible to hold a President accountable for what government agencies do.

Besides, how come nobody in Congress raised a red flag? Anyone who's anyone on Capitol Hill gets intelligence briefings as well.

As well it was a cease fire. This wasn't some war against a totally innocent country.

Why was Clinton impeached?

Clinton committed perjury.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

Anyone on this board is more of a vet than him.

`cept you, jury dodger.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:

Clinton committed perjury.

A few times.