[OSX Abuser]

[Saad]

Knd of funny that a great many conservatives find it in themselves to bash Kerry's fairly impressive (he was an officer in a combat zone, that is admirable in and of itself) record in Vietnam, but cannot defend Bush's record. He skipped names on waiting lists, failed necessary tests to fly and then whent AWOL (alledgedly) and was discharged honorably.

Bush supporters did similar things to John McCain in 2000.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by OSX Abuser:

At least the ones on the right were earned.

[dodo_nutter]

Originally posted by Saad:
John McCain

Hehehehe...Die hard

[dodo_nutter]

Sorry i have no idea who he is, it sounds like John Maclain and im VERY bord

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by OSX Abuser:

Those couldn't be Kerry's - he supposedly through them at Nixon's White House. (Of course it's come out that at the time he said he through HIS medals, but they were someone elses.)

John Kerry served our country in Vietnam, and I have respect for anyone who does that. But I would like to know whether he fudged his records when it came to said medals.

Where people have problems with Kerry is his behavior after he got back. While his comrades in arms were still risking their tails in a foreign land, he went to Congress and accused them of war crimes. I find that very distasteful.

As far as Bush being "AWOL" - I love how Kerry supporters demand the Swift Boaters provide proof of every single thing they say in public, but Terry McCauliff and Michael Moore can say Bush is AWOL and it's accepted as truth even after the facts proove otherwise.

[Saad]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
As far as Bush being "AWOL" - I love how Kerry supporters demand the Swift Boaters provide proof of every single thing they say in public, but Terry McCauliff and Michael Moore can say Bush is AWOL and it's accepted as truth even after the facts proove otherwise.

They have records of Bush working at a senate campaign while he was supposedly still in the guard.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Saad:
They have records of Bush working at a senate campaign while he was supposedly still in the guard.

And you just choose to ignore the fact he had permission to do so?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
And you just choose to ignore the fact he had permission to do so?

err....if he had permission to escape his guard duty through normal legal means (not pappy pulling strings), and its provable, the charges of AWOL would likely be moot.
Do you have proof of such?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
err....if he had permission to escape his guard duty through normal legal means (not pappy pulling strings), and its provable, the charges of AWOL would likely be moot.

5 months after we debated this to death, the penny drops.

NRO has a handy summary here. Not unbiased, of course, but pretty thorough.

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
err....if he had permission to escape his guard duty through normal legal means (not pappy pulling strings), and its provable, the charges of AWOL would likely be moot.
Do you have proof of such?

Huh, you accuse Bush of something without proof yet you blast those who criticize Kerry. Oh, the irony.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
5 months after we debated this to death, the penny drops.

NRO has a handy summary here. Not unbiased, of course, but pretty thorough.

Not bad, but overlooks some things, like the fact that he missed a physical and lost his wings. Here's another perspective, not unbiased either, but which I think is a realistic portrayal of the way things were at the time:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...;notFound=true

On the issue of going to Alabama, it appears that Bush went without permission, then requested permission. Permission was initially denied, but was approved 5 months later:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...on/7932511.htm

My own conclusion is that Bush pulled strings to get into the Guard and avoid the draft. I don't condemn him for it, but as Cohen suggests, facts are facts. To his credit, he then appears to have served conscientiously for about 4 years. After that, it seems that he did as little as he could get away with. In the sense that he didn't show up for periods of time and skipped off to Alabama, I suppose he could be considered AWOL in the figurative sense, but the fact is that, as Cohen says, it was tolerated and probably even typical. If the Guard was satisfied enough to give him an Honorable Discharge and let him go early, I'm satisfied.

I do find it regrettable that a person who distinguished himself in combat and returned to protest the war is held in lower esteem than one who avoided the war altogether, but that's a judgment that everyone has to make for themselves.

[edited to correct timeline]

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by zigzag:
To his credit, he then appears to have served conscientiously for about 2 years.

You mean 2 years after his initial 2 years active duty training - basic, flight school, and so on. So 4 years. The entire dispute is over his last year and a half out of 5 and a half years.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You mean 2 years after his initial 2 years active duty training - basic, flight school, and so on. So 4 years. The entire dispute is over his last year and a half out of 5 and a half years.

Yes - my mistake.

[Saad]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
And you just choose to ignore the fact he had permission to do so?

Not at the expense of his time with the guard.