[Taliesin]

He also will fast in solidarity to the hunger-strike of the palestinian prisoners. Interesting is also the last paragraph of the BBC-article, that quotes a palestinian who doubts that the non-violent form of resistance could work alone, considering the use of tanks against protesters and the assassinations of non-violent leaders...

There are other points that are interesting in the article, espescially the notion of the non-violent aspects of the intifada between 87 and 93, like the civil disobedience, the boycotts of isrealic products, the not paying of taxes to Israel, etc.., but all were squashed by israelic governments and armies with massimprisonments and other bureaucratical means..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3562434.stm

Taliesin

[lil'babykitten]

He is absolutely right.

[vmarks]

"I've dedicated my life to explain to people how damaging prejudices can be, and how to form better relations. That is the basis of non-violence. Relations must be based on love, understanding and honor, not on negative foundations," Gandhi stated.

"I will tell the Palestinians that it is their responsibility to change. If the Israelis do not want to listen, it does not mean we cannot act."

Gandhi is right. The Arab "Palestinians" need to change and it is their responsibility. The sooner, the better, if they want to join civilization and the rest of the world.

[eklipse]

: cough :

Mr Gandhi also criticised Israel's controverisial security barrier, saying, "This reminds me of something you might see in apartheid South Africa. The walls surround cities and towns, choking the people - it's not right."

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The sooner, the better, if they want to join civilization and the rest of the world.

So when is Israel going to?

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
So when is Israel going to?

When the Palestinians stop the suicide bombings.

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
"I've dedicated my life to explain to people how damaging prejudices can be, and how to form better relations. That is the basis of non-violence. Relations must be based on love, understanding and honor, not on negative foundations," Gandhi stated.

"I will tell the Palestinians that it is their responsibility to change. If the Israelis do not want to listen, it does not mean we cannot act."

Gandhi is right. The Arab "Palestinians" need to change and it is their responsibility. The sooner, the better, if they want to join civilization and the rest of the world.

When are the Jewish "Israelis" going to listen to him and stop using weapons and oppression to get what they want?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by eklipse:
: cough :

Clearly Ghandi has as much to learn as he has to teach.

It was the Jews of South Africa who were instrumental in changing the apartheid conditions of the Blacks, just as they marched in America with Martin Luther King, Jr.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Clearly Ghandi has as much to learn as he has to teach.

It was the Jews of South Africa who were instrumental in changing the apartheid conditions of the Blacks, just as they marched in America with Martin Luther King, Jr.

As we all know, some did March with him.

But others were *very* against it (to the point of death threats to those who supported him).

[eklipse]

Originally posted by vmarks:
It was the Jews of South Africa who were instrumental in changing the apartheid conditions of the Blacks, just as they marched in America with Martin Luther King, Jr.

So what?

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Clearly Ghandi has as much to learn as he has to teach.

It was the Jews of South Africa who were instrumental in changing the apartheid conditions of the Blacks, just as they marched in America with Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm sure, should it ever come to a peaceful solution in the Israel-Palestine-conflict, either through a combined state for israelis and palestinians or a fully souvereign palestinian state, you will add that to your list, in which jews were instrumental in changing the apartheit conditions of the palestinians.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Gandhi is right. The Arab "Palestinians" need to change and it is their responsibility. The sooner, the better, if they want to join civilization and the rest of the world.

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
He is absolutely right.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
When the Palestinians stop the suicide bombings.

Exactly! And until that stops, nothing will change.

When that stops, you will see change happen.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Exactly! And until that stops, nothing will change.

When that stops, you will see change happen.

You are aware how rediculous that is, don't you? Suicide-bombings came up for the first time at the end of the eighties by Hamas, so why hasn't changed anything in the years before it?

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
You are aware how rediculous that is, don't you? Suicide-bombings came up for the first time at the end of the eighties by Hamas, so why hasn't changed anything in the years before it?

Taliesin

I would reply to that if it made one iota of sense.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
You are aware how rediculous that is, don't you? Suicide-bombings came up for the first time at the end of the eighties by Hamas, so why hasn't changed anything in the years before it?

Taliesin

Because before suicide bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism? If you look at the situation as a continuum since the 40s, it's clear suicide bombing is the last ditch effort to destroy Israel, after war and all other tactics failed.

[vmarks]

Actually, no, Taliesin,

1981 was the first recorded instance and it was Hizbollah. Before that, guerilla warfare hadn't really occurred to the terrorists and they had been assembling armies. Now the armies are less organized so that they can be more difficult to target and easier to claim innocence by blending in. Tanzim and Fatah were the original armies, dating back to the 40s.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Actually, no, Taliesin,

1981 was the first recorded instance and it was Hizbollah. Before that, guerilla warfare hadn't really occurred to the terrorists and they had been assembling armies. Now the armies are less organized so that they can be more difficult to target and easier to claim innocence by blending in. Tanzim and Fatah were the original armies, dating back to the 40s.

Hezbollah is Lebanon-based, I was talking about Gaza and Westbank, but yes, Hezbollah invented the suicide-bombing and destroyed with that method a military-post of the USA during the Israel vs Lebanon-war.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by itai195:
Because before suicide bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism?

Exactly, before suicide-bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism,... commited by Israel!

Taliesin

[itai195]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Exactly, before suicide-bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism,... commited by Israel!

Taliesin

Which wars would those be?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Exactly, before suicide-bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism,... commited by Israel!

Taliesin

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Exactly, before suicide-bombings there were outright wars and other acts of terrorism,... commited by Israel!

Taliesin

Every war was brought on by the arab-muslim countries surrounding Israel. To claim anything else is to lie.

As for Ghandi's relative, perhaps the palestinians will take some non-violent advice, perhaps not. Meanwhile, Israel should step up all operations against the terrorists and continue eliminating them, tear down their houses, and hunt down down like rats.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Every war was brought on by the arab-muslim countries surrounding Israel. To claim anything else is to lie.

No.

[Sven G]

Gandhi would roll in his grave if he saw today's situation: not much has changed, not much is going to change - unless the "bosses" of both parts are removed (in a political meaning, of course).

... And even that might not be enough, if there isn't, eventually, a substantial change in the general populace's mindset...

[PacHead]

Originally posted by eklipse:
No.

Which ones weren't ?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Which ones weren't ?

You'll have to weed through a bunch of "opinions" and bizarro distortions with that one.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You'll have to weed through a bunch of "opinions" and bizarro distortions with that one.

Yes, only a demented mind would think otherwise.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Which ones weren't ?

The one where the Zionists formed a state on another peoples' land - that was an act of war.

The Arabs acted in self-defense, only a demented mind would think otherwise.

[Logic]

Originally posted by eklipse:
The one where the Zionists formed a state on another peoples' land - that was an act of war.

The Arabs acted in self-defense, only a demented mind would think otherwise.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by eklipse:
The one where the Zionists formed a state on another peoples' land - that was an act of war.

The Arabs acted in self-defense, only a demented mind would think otherwise.

Your opinion is invalid. Israel was formed with the support of the UN and much of the world community. What some other people think is irrelevant.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Didn't you say you voted for Clinton? Doesn't that make you a girlyman?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Your opinion is invalid. Israel was formed with the support of the UN and much of the world community. What some other people think is irrelevant.

The UN is irrelevant.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by eklipse:
The one where the Palestinians are trying to form a state on another peoples' land - that is an act of war.

The Israelis acted in self-defense, only a demented mind would think otherwise.

Fixed™

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Didn't you say you voted for Clinton? Doesn't that make you a girlyman?

Clinton wasn't liberal, he was middle-of-the-road Moderate.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by itai195:
Which wars would those be?

Ok, I'll bite ;-):

Maybe I have just imagined those wars, let's call them "imaginary war I" - "imaginary war V":

Imaginary war I started 1948 by Israel.
Imaginary war II started 1956 by Israel.
Imaginary war III started 1967 by Israel.
Imaginary war IV started 1982 by Israel.
Imaginary war V started 1988 by Israel.

There was also an imaginary war started by the arabic countries, that was imaginary war III.5 started 1973.

Taliesin

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok, I'll bite ;-):

Maybe I have just imagined those wars, let's call them "imaginary war I" - "imaginary war V":

Imaginary war I started 1948 by Israel.
Imaginary war II started 1956 by Israel.
Imaginary war III started 1967 by Israel.
Imaginary war IV started 1982 by Israel.
Imaginary war V started 1988 by Israel.

There was also an imaginary war started by the arabic countries, that was imaginary war III.5 started 1973.

Taliesin

If the loony terrorists in the palestinian areas strapping bomb belts onto themselves believes what talsien believes, then no wonder the fools blow themselves up. We can thank the wonderful schools they attend for that.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok, I'll bite ;-):

Maybe I have just imagined those wars, let's call them "imaginary war I" - "imaginary war V":

Imaginary war I started 1948 by Israel.
Imaginary war II started 1956 by Israel.
Imaginary war III started 1967 by Israel.
Imaginary war IV started 1982 by Israel.
Imaginary war V started 1988 by Israel.

There was also an imaginary war started by the arabic countries, that was imaginary war III.5 started 1973.

Taliesin

That's an interesting interpretation of history. But in this instance, I don't even particularly care about who is to blame for which war. My point was that before the late 80s there was essentially a state of war between Israel and the Arabs, and suicide bombing emerged as a last ditch effort. I wanted to point out that it's false to imply that Arab-initiated violence began in the 80s with suicide bombings.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by eklipse:
The one where the Zionists formed a state on another peoples' land - that was an act of war.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Didn't you say you voted for Clinton? Doesn't that make you a girlyman?

Yes, I was a liberal hippy clouded by pot smoke girlyman.

I grew up.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok, I'll bite ;-):

Maybe I have just imagined those wars, let's call them "imaginary war I" - "imaginary war V":

Imaginary war I started 1948 by Israel.
Imaginary war II started 1956 by Israel.
Imaginary war III started 1967 by Israel.
Imaginary war IV started 1982 by Israel.
Imaginary war V started 1988 by Israel.

There was also an imaginary war started by the arabic countries, that was imaginary war III.5 started 1973.

Taliesin

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I grew up.

Really?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Really?

No

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Really?

No! That's you! Forever! 24/7!