[Capt.McDuff]

When will we say enough is enough with this insolence?

Between the deaths of thousands of our citizens, selling our weapons to China, and now this?

[voodoo]

Yo word!

[Nicko]

....interesting if true.

[Logic]

I'm wondering. If this is a US citizen what would the penalty for this be? Or rather what should it be according tot he laws and also according to you?

And perhaps this is a good time to remind some of the pro-Zionists about USS Liberty.

[BlackGriffen]

Conspiracy theorist! Anti-semite!</sarcasm>

All I have to say in seriousness is, why am I not surprised?

BG

[Capt.McDuff]

Spies can be executed I believe.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
When will we say enough is enough with this insolence?

Between the deaths of thousands of our citizens, selling our weapons to China, and now this?

Sounds like another peacenik-treehugger-liberal-scum-liberal-kommunista-anti-Bush-pro-Kerry-pro-Lerkfish-anti-american-pro-muslim-pro-canadian-anti-Fox-pro-Moore-pro-Aljazeera-Hussein-friendly conspiracy to me.

I also suspect pro-Abortionists-senseless assassins Pro-Palestinians Anarchist co-conspiracy as well...

They are all illegally anti-bible pagans married Gays anyway...

[Logic]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Sounds like another peacenik-treehugger-liberal
-scum-liberal-kommunista-anti-Bush-pro-Kerry-
pro-Lerkfish-anti-american-pro-muslim-pro-canadian
-anti-Fox-pro-Moore-pro-Aljazeera-Hussein-friendly conspiracy to me.

I also suspect pro-Abortionists-senseless assassins
Pro-Palestinians Anarchist co-conspiracy as well...

They are all illegally anti-bible pagans married Gays anyway...

[Logic]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Spies can be executed I believe.

Then it will be interesting to see how this turns out. This is one of the very few things that IMO warrants a death sentence.

[Logic]

This reminded me of this quote by Sharon.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

[Capt.McDuff]

Scary stuff.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Logic:
This reminded me of this quote by Sharon.

Ah!

So now we know who is the leader of the "free" world...

[Lerkfish]

*cough*neoconservative wolfowitz*cough*

[vmarks]

USS Liberty was an accident, get over it.

Jonathan Pollard sets the precedent here, if true.

Don't quote Kol Yisrael when you haven't heard the Hebrew broadcast, it embarrasses you- particularly in this case, where that's a quote that never was.

[Capt.McDuff]

They only want us to believe it's an accident.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
They only want us to believe it's an accident.

K O N S P I R A S I I

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
USS Liberty was an accident, get over it.

Jonathan Pollard sets the precedent here, if true.

Don't quote Kol Yisrael when you haven't heard the Hebrew broadcast, it embarrasses you- particularly in this case, where that's a quote that never was.

It never was? Care to back that up?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Spies can be executed I believe.

you may want to avoid being premature....there might be some of your personal heroes involved in this.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Logic:
It never was? Care to back that up?

Ok.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...mp;x_context=2

CAMERA conducted extensive Nexis and Internet searches, and found that no mainstream news organization reported as true the fabricated quotation.



The hoax originated with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-Hamas group, the Islamic Association for Palestine. It said:


An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying “don’t worry about American pressure, we control America.”
Notably, in the same press release, the direct quotation “we control America” changed to “we the Jewish people control America.”



IAP wrote:

According [to] the Israeli Hebrew radio, Col [sic] Yisrael Wednesday, Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and turn the US against us. At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying “...I want to tell you something clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.”


According to the IAP press release, the statement was reported on Kol Yisrael. However, CAMERA’s calls to Kol Yisrael confirmed that no such broadcast occurred.

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Ok.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...mp;x_context=2

heh, looks like a fair and balanced site with no agenda

Whatever........

[vmarks]

So calling Kol Yisrael and asking them isn't proof? After all, they are the source you're claiming had the original broadcast.

Face it, if Kol Yisrael says it didn't happen and it was said to happen on their airwaves, it didn't happen. It's Hamas propaganda, and I've shown it.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Spies can be executed I believe.

Not an Israeli spy. We have a long standing treaty with them dating back to the 70's. There was a spy rumored several years back to be in the CIA and this was the same deal. Life in prison, yes. Execution, no.

Originally posted by vmarks:
USS Liberty was an accident, get over it.

You've got to be kidding.

When you look at the ship they thought it was... doesn't look like the liberty.

Liberty had a US flag.

And it was a sustained attack.

If that's an accident, 9/11 could be too.

[Logic]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Not an Israeli spy. We have a long standing treaty with them dating back to the 70's. There was a spy rumored several years back to be in the CIA and this was the same deal. Life in prison, yes. Execution, no.

There are special laws for Israeli spies?

[vmarks]

No, it was actually an accident. That was the conclusion by all inquiries at the time, and it is supported by the formerly-confidential documentation and events of the day.

http://www.shalem.org.il/azure/9-Oren.htm

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
No, it was actually an accident. That was the conclusion by all inquiries at the time, and it is supported by the formerly-confidential documentation and events of the day.

http://www.shalem.org.il/azure/9-Oren.htm

Has the US held a Congressional hearing about the incident?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by vmarks:
No, it was actually an accident. That was the conclusion by all inquiries at the time, and it is supported by the formerly-confidential documentation and events of the day.

http://www.shalem.org.il/azure/9-Oren.htm

Spain and Germany (also observing the war from sea) all heard radio transmission from the aircrafts (which circled prior to the attack) confirming it as an american vessel.

It's impossible to say it's an 'accident' today considering we know that the pilots knew it was an american ship.

The question that remains is who gave the order? A pilot? Military Commander? Or was it state ordered?

[vmarks]

Such charges persisted in the face of successive inquiries by a broad range of American agencies and Congressional committees, as well as a full Israeli court of inquiry, all of which found no proof whatsoever that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship. On the contrary, the evidence produced by these investigations lent further support to Israel's claim that its decision to attack was, given the circumstances, a reasonable error.

You can read the link anytime you please.

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
you may want to avoid being premature....there might be some of your personal heroes involved in this.

What heroes? If someone was giving secrets away then that person or persons need to be held accountable whomever it was.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Such charges persisted in the face of successive inquiries by a broad range of American agencies and Congressional committees, as well as a full Israeli court of inquiry, all of which found no proof whatsoever that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship. On the contrary, the evidence produced by these investigations lent further support to Israel's claim that its decision to attack was, given the circumstances, a reasonable error.

You can read the link anytime you please.

Congress never investigated Israeli intelegence. Only the actions of the US Liberty Crew, and the Navy preceding (the rescue flights, and them being called off by LBJ... which many claim caused many of the injuries to turn to deaths).

It was literally impossible to take it as a warship, considering it had only 2 guns, a US flag, it was in international waters, and was covered in 1960's geek gear (antenna's all over the place).

Not to mention Israel was familiar with much of the US recon equipment of the time, since the US helped Israel with intelegence during the time. The Liberty had 4 sister ships. At least 1 of which worked somewhat closely with them.


It also was covered in labels, and ID numbers. Not arabic lettering.

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/sliberty.jpg
vs.
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/elquseir.jpg

two very different boats. The most common trait other than floating on water is that the pictures are black and white.

Note the liberty's giant lettering on the front.

The US never investigated Israel's knowledge. Only US actions during and post attack. It's something the survivors have been asking congress for decades to do.

[Capt.McDuff]

Originally posted by Logic:
Has the US held a Congressional hearing about the incident?

Can we trust a Congressional hearing that inquires about something an "ally" does?

I'm sure Japan has alot of faith in our system to punish Marines who rape young schoolgirls.

[Logic]

Could you provide a link to the Congressional committees that have investigated this. And could you answer my question. Has there been a Congressional hearing on this subject?

[AKcrab]

Who's messing up the line wrap?
or is it PEBKAC?

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Who's messing up the line wrap?
or is it PEBKAC?

angaq0k and Logic quoting him.

BG

[Logic]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
angaq0k and Logic quoting him.

BG

Fixed the quote

[Capt.McDuff]

One torpedo? An accident. A few holes in the ship? Maybe an accident.

But 821 holes? That's no accident.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Congress never investigated Israeli intelegence. Only the actions of the US Liberty Crew, and the Navy preceding (the rescue flights, and them being called off by LBJ... which many claim caused many of the injuries to turn to deaths).

It was literally impossible to take it as a warship, considering it had only 2 guns, a US flag, it was in international waters, and was covered in 1960's geek gear (antenna's all over the place).

Not to mention Israel was familiar with much of the US recon equipment of the time, since the US helped Israel with intelegence during the time. The Liberty had 4 sister ships. At least 1 of which worked somewhat closely with them.


It also was covered in labels, and ID numbers. Not arabic lettering.

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/sliberty.jpg
vs.
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/elquseir.jpg

two very different boats. The most common trait other than floating on water is that the pictures are black and white.

Note the liberty's giant lettering on the front.

The US never investigated Israel's knowledge. Only US actions during and post attack. It's something the survivors have been asking congress for decades to do.

The US did investigate Israel's knowledge. The 800+ holes in Liberty were the result of Liberty not following orders and being in the middle of combat when she was supposed to be on a completely different waterway, not in the one Nassar had barred and used for his Egyptian and Soviet ships.

"Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship's hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag," said Cristol

"For years conspiracy theorists have claimed that audio tapes existed of the Israeli pilots identifying the ship as American before they attacked. There are other conspiracy claims that the Liberty radio compartment made such interceptions and that the U.S. submarine Amberjack had gathered damning evidence during the attack by means of its periscope."

"On July 2, 2003, as a result of my lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act, the National Security Agency made two significant admissions. First, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the USS Liberty. Second, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the US submarine Amberjack. And finally, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings it made from an EC-121 aircraft in the vicinity of the attacks during the time periods 2:30 p.m. Sinai time to 3:27 p.m. Sinai time. These tapes contain nothing to support the prior conspiracy claims and show that the helicopters were first dispatched to rescue Egyptians, and then demonstrate the confusion as to the identification of the target ship."


Cristol adds: "The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol's book "The Liberty Incident". The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity."


"As Admiral "Bud" Edney, former NATO supreme allied commander, Atlantic; and commander in chief, U.S. Atlantic command, stated, "Only those with an ulterior motive can still cling to the conspiracy theories after Judge Jay Cristol's excellent coverage documents each detail that led to the tragic mistaken attack."

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/ussl...rael10034.html

You don't have to believe, but more evidence is in now that the NSA finally released what they had and confidential documents are out in the open. We know with certainty that this tragedy was an accident which happened by gross miscommunication: Miscommunication on the part of Liberty not following orders for where to be, on the part of Israel not identifying the ship correctly, on Liberty not signalling any different than the Egyptian ships when being addressed with signal lights, and on and on. A series of failures led to the friendly fire.

We're only luck that Rabin who was in charge of the forces at the time called Johnson to tell him what had happened, because the sixth fleet had launched nuclear armed planes, thinking they were being attacked by Russians. These planes were recalled without nukes being used, but the US was ready to.

[Capt.McDuff]

Well now who you believe depends on whether or not you are an Israeli apologist or not.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Logic:
There are special laws for Israeli spies?

Not having special laws for Israeli spies would be anti-Semetic.

[vmarks]

There aren't special laws for Israeli spies.

Consider, when was the last time someone was executed for spying? Not since the Rosenbergs?

In fact, Pollard is in prison. In fact, the FBI agent who spied for the Russians in the 70s and 80s is in prison. Other spies caught and not in prison get traded to their home countries in exchange for America's spies back in return.

Insisting Israel is somehow getting special treatment is absurd. If it were, Pollard would never have been sentenced, but instead extradited to Israel.

[Logic]

vmarks, you still haven't provided a link to any congressional hearings or investigations.

[vmarks]

Why do many of the conspiracy theorists continue to demand a United States Congressional investigation and is such an investigation appropriate?

The goal is simply to provide a platform for propaganda. There have been ten official U.S. investigations. Five of them were Congressional. They all reached the same conclusion that the incident was a tragic mistake. Eight United States Presidents: Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43) have supported and adopted these conclusions. In fact, the current President of the United States, George W. Bush, through White House staff, issued a letter in October 2002 indicating his position that no further investigation of this incident was needed.

You want me to give them to you in real time, and yet you've never read the congressional website- if you had, you would know that searching across seven presidential administrations is no easy feat- the government site makes it difficult and not everything is online, but instead is in paper form.

[Logic]

I understand. I can wait.

Or you could provide me with the names of those investigations and I'll be able to look for them myself.

[vmarks]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~r108pmg6DA::

it's recent and doesn't cover the 5 inquiries, but it is online. The 5 Congressional inquiries do not appear to be online, they are available in print.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by vmarks:
... Insisting Israel is somehow getting special treatment is absurd ...

Please. There may not be evidence about special treatment for Israeli spys in the US, but there is enough evidence elsewhere of special treatment by the US for Israel to suggest that special treatment for it's spys may not be "absurd"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
US: 77 vetoes. Blocked 36 resolutions criticising Israel.

... the US has used its veto regularly to shield the Israeli Government from international criticism or attempts to restrain the behaviour of its military ...

... Eight of the last 10 vetoes at the Security Council have been by the United States, and seven of these have been of draft resolutions criticising the Israeli Government in some way ...

[Capt.McDuff]

Maybe Israel wanted to sink the Liberty to keep us from finding out about Israeli war crimes or the impending invasion of the Golan Heights?

821 holes. Not an accident.

[vmarks]

Logic:

Best I can come up with without being able to get to a library right now:

Hearings before the Committee on Foreign Relations - United States Senate - Ninetieth Congress - First Session on S. 1872 - A Bill To Amend The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, As Amended, And For Other Purposes - June 12, July 14 and 26, 1967:


Secretary McNamara: But I have examined the record of the investigation, and I find no intent by the Israeli Government, and no intent by any representatives of the Israeli Government to attack a U.S. vessel.


Senator Aiken: Was it an individual rather than a governmental error?


Secretary McNamara: Yes, sir... (P. 266) In the case of the attack on the Liberty, it was the conclusion of the investigatory body headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence that the attack was not intentional.�_ I read the record of the investigation, and I support that conclusion, and I think this, therefore... It was not a conscious decision on the part of either the Government of Israel - To attack a U.S. vessel.�_ (P. 267)


Secretary McNamara: No, there is no evidence that the individuals attacking the Liberty knew they were attacking a U.S. ship, and there is some evidence, circumstantial, that they did not know it... but it is thoroughly clear, based on the investigation report, that it was not a conscious attack on a U.S. vessel.�_ (P. 268)


Senator Mundt: You mean by the pilots?


Secretary McNamara: By the pilots.�_ They did not identify the vessel as a U.S. vessel prior to the time of attack.�_ You may consider this inconceivable.


Senator Mundt: On the part of the attackers, yes. It seemed to be broad daylight.


Secretary McNamara: They definitely did not.�_ As far as we can tell.�_ All of the evidence points to the contrary.


Senator Mundt: You take their word for it!


Secretary McNamara: My conclusion is based on the investigation report which did not discuss the identification with the Israeli pilots or Naval personnel involved, but did examine all of the circumstances of the attack and did discuss it with the commander and even the men on the Liberty.... (P. 269)

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Maybe Israel wanted to sink the Liberty to keep us from finding out about Israeli war crimes or the impending invasion of the Golan Heights?

821 holes. Not an accident.

40 minutes of figuring out why there's a ship where none are supposed to be, identifying it as Egyptian, Russian, Egyptian and then American and stopping attacking and trying to approach and rescue and getting return fire, all the while American fighters with nukes have been launched and recalled and replaced with conventionally armed ones....

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity, or in this case serious bungling.

[Capt.McDuff]

The only serious bungling here was the Israelis who committed an act of war against this nation and the failure of successive pandering U.S. administrations to stand up for American servicemen and instead conducted a whitewash of a great and intentional tragedy.

I'll believe those who served on that ship before I'll believe someone who wasn't.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
When will we say enough is enough with this insolence?

Between the deaths of thousands of our citizens, selling our weapons to China, and now this?

Who needs ennemies......

[Capt.McDuff]

When your "Friends" stab you in the back all the time?