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OldManMac · Aug 28, 2004, 12:45 PM

Looks like there are a few in public life who have a conscience.

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"I'm very ashamed"
The former Texas official who got George Bush into the National Guard apologizes for making sure that young men with important "family names" did not have to fight in Vietnam.

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By Jeff Horwitz

Aug. 27, 2004 _|_ Another bombshell in the battle over Vietnam service that has been raging in the 2004 presidential race exploded on the Web Friday. In a video originally posted on the Web by a pro-Kerry organization in Austin, Texas, Ben Barnes, a former lieutenant governor of Texas, apologized for his role in getting a young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard while young men who were not from prominent or wealthy families "died in Vietnam."

"Let's talk a minute about John Kerry and George Bush, and I know them both," said Barnes in the video, which was filmed at a gathering of about 200 Kerry supporters in Austin on May 27. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas National Guard when I was lieutenant governor, and I'm not necessarily proud of that. But I did it. I got a lot of other people in the National Guard because I thought that was what people should do when you're in office, and you help a lot of rich people."

"And I walked to the Vietnam Memorial the other day," Barnes continued, "and I looked at the names of the people that died in Vietnam, and I became more ashamed of myself than I have ever been, because it was the worst thing I ever did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I'm very sorry about that, and I'm very ashamed, and I apologize to you as voters of Texas."

Barnes then condemned the Republican attacks on John Kerry's war service: "And I tell you that for the Republicans to jump on John Kerry and say that he is not a patriot after he went to Vietnam and was shot at and fought for our freedom and came back here and protested against the war, he's a flip-flopper, let me tell you: John Kerry is a 100 times better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney."

The video of Barnes was filmed by Todd Phelan and Mike Nicholson, organizers of a political group called Austin4Kerry. Phelan is currently an organizer for the Travis County Democrats. The video first appeared on the Austin4Kerry Web site on June 25, but was widely overlooked until Friday. The video also includes a separate interview conducted by the same two filmmakers in which Barnes speaks with admiration about Kerry's valor.

Phelan and Nicholson recall they were surprised by the candor of Barnes' remarks while they were filming him at the rally. "To be honest with you, my eyes lit up instantaneously," Phelan told Salon. "I looked at Mike, he looked at me, and it was like 'Did he just say that?'" But at the time, said Phelan, they did not think the video would create a stir. He suggested that the video suddenly became a Web phenomenon because of the heated swift boat controversy that has been fanned by supporters of Bush.

Barnes' story about Bush and the Air National Guard first broke in 1999 as the then Texas governor was mounting his first campaign for the presidency. Bush insisted at the time that neither he nor his father sought Barnes' assistance. "I can tell you what happened," said Bush. "Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard. I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either."

Barnes said at the time that it was a wealthy Bush family friend, a Houston oilman named Sidney Adger, who came to him with the request to help the younger Bush.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 01:04 PM

And? Kerry ran away from Vietnam, called all the soldiers war criminals, then wants to be President?

How many Vietnam veterans had to put up with being called baby killers due to Kerry? How many soldiers died because Kerry wanted to run back home and run for office?

OldManMac · Aug 28, 2004, 01:09 PM

Did you read the article? I doubt it. Even Barnes stated that Kerry is a 100 times more of a patriot than Dubya and Dick Halliburton. I served during the Vietnam era, but I didn't agree with the war. Does that make me a traitor too?

placebo1969 · Aug 28, 2004, 01:11 PM

Wasn't GHW Bush the head of the CIA at the time of W's enlistment? Regardless of what you think about the man, I doubt the government would let the son of the CIA director go into active combat, if only so he isn't a hostage risk.

spauldingg · Aug 28, 2004, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I doubt the government would let the son of the CIA director go into active combat, if only so he isn't a hostage risk.

Holy mother of God..the way the rightwing will come up with absolutely anything, no matter how ludicrous, to defend this guy is just utterly incomprehensible to me.

Luca Rescigno · Aug 28, 2004, 01:26 PM

I think anyone who is willing to actually go to war and fight for their country, even if they disagree with the war, has a very strong will and is very patriotic. Kerry fought in Vietnam even though he disagreed with the war. Go ahead and call some of the people involved unpatriotic, or trators (Jane Fonda comes to mind), but I think it shows incredible love and devotion for your country to get up and serve even when you disagree with the government's decisions.

zigzag · Aug 28, 2004, 01:28 PM

This, to me, is the most incisive and truthful statement I've seen in connection with this entire controversy: "And I tell you that for the Republicans to jump on John Kerry and say that he is not a patriot after he went to Vietnam and was shot at and fought for our freedom and came back here and protested against the war, he's a flip-flopper, let me tell you: John Kerry is a 100 times better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney."

Call Kerry an embellisher, call him a political opportunist, call him whatever you like, but any way you cut it he demonstrated more courage and conviction in both his service and his opposition to the war than Bush or Cheney ever have. Anyone who calls Kerry, Dole, McCain, Cleland or Bush Sr. unpatriotic or cowardly oughta be spanked.

So much attention has been focused on Kerry's veracity. What about Bush's? How do you account for statements like this: "Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard. I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either." This from someone who leap-frogged a lengthy waiting list with a minimum pilot test score and no qualifications whatsoever.

I hope this gets around and that the whole thing - Kerry's embellishments, Bush's special treatment, the Swift Boat group's contradictions - blows wide open. Everybody's skeletons will come out, everyone will realize that there's no one left to point fingers at and that we're all flawed, and we can get on with the issues of the day.

Paybacks are a motherf*cker, and that goes for Bush and Kerry both.

chris v · Aug 28, 2004, 01:33 PM

Go, Ben. I'm surprised to see him stick his neck out to such a degree. He's been out of politics for a number of years now, and leads a really quiet life. He's gonna have news trucks camped on his lawn in a few days, the way things are going. I wonder whether Rove's machine is gonna go after Barnes or not.

placebo1969 · Aug 28, 2004, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by spauldingg:
Holy mother of God..the way the rightwing will come up with absolutely anything, no matter how ludicrous, to defend this guy is just utterly incomprehensible to me.

I wouldn't consider myself rightwing. I'm tyring to be objective here. As I have said before, this whole "controversy" wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Kerry in the first place. I've never disrespected his service to the country.

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 28, 2004, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by placebo1969:
Wasn't GHW Bush the head of the CIA at the time of W's enlistment? Regardless of what you think about the man, I doubt the government would let the son of the CIA director go into active combat, if only so he isn't a hostage risk.

You are off by a decade. Bush joined the Air National Guard in 1968. GHW Bush was a minor congressman at the time. He didn't become Director of Central Intelligence until 1976.

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 28, 2004, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by zigzag:
This, to me, is the most incisive and truthful statement I've seen in connection with this entire controversy: "And I tell you that for the Republicans to jump on John Kerry and say that he is not a patriot after he went to Vietnam and was shot at and fought for our freedom and came back here and protested against the war, he's a flip-flopper, let me tell you: John Kerry is a 100 times better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney."

Call Kerry an embellisher, call him a political opportunist, call him whatever you like, but any way you cut it he demonstrated more courage and conviction in both his service and his opposition to the war than Bush or Cheney ever have. Anyone who calls Kerry, Dole, McCain, Cleland or Bush Sr. unpatriotic or cowardly oughta be spanked.

So much attention has been focused on Kerry's veracity. What about Bush's? How do you account for statements like this: "Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard. I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either." This from someone who leap-frogged a lengthy waiting list with a minimum pilot test score and no qualifications whatsoever.

I hope this gets around and that the whole thing - Kerry's embellishments, Bush's special treatment, the Swift Boat group's contradictions - blows wide open. Everybody's skeletons will come out, everyone will realize that there's no one left to point fingers at and that we're all flawed, and we can get on with the issues of the day.

Paybacks are a motherf*cker, and that goes for Bush and Kerry both.

I don't think that anybody has called Kerry unpatriotic.

I don't like the way people have slipped into the habit of defaming national guardsmen. Service in the National Guard or Reserves is service. If anything, suggesting otherwise is questioning the patriotism of Guardsman. People need to knock that off.

placebo1969 · Aug 28, 2004, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You are off by a decade. Bush joined the Air National Guard in 1968. GHW Bush was a minor congressman at the time. He didn't become Director of Central Intelligence until 1976.

Well, I'm glad I wrote that sentence as a question, not a statement.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by KarlG:
Even Barnes stated that Kerry is a 100 times more of a patriot than Dubya and Dick Halliburton.

Well that settles it then. Next time I need an opinion on anything I'll email Barnes.

I served during the Vietnam era, but I didn't agree with the war. Does that make me a traitor too?

Did you intentionally seek out Purple Hearts, run home, and smear every single soldier still in battle by calling them all butchers? Or did you serve in uniform honorably?

Kerry is a worthless P.O.S.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
I think anyone who is willing to actually go to war and fight for their country, even if they disagree with the war, has a very strong will and is very patriotic. Kerry fought in Vietnam even though he disagreed with the war. Go ahead and call some of the people involved unpatriotic, or trators (Jane Fonda comes to mind), but I think it shows incredible love and devotion for your country to get up and serve even when you disagree with the government's decisions.

Kerry had no choice. He TRIED to get out of it.

Jesus H. Christ on a stick. Why do we all act like Bush was the only one who went into the Guard?

I don't know of anyone else though who has questionable actions leading to questionable medals then ran away, came home, and slandered all his ex-brothers0-in-arms.

To call Kerry patriotic is an insult to the countless names on any war memorial.

BlackGriffen · Aug 28, 2004, 04:15 PM

In Bush's defense he may not have known that his father (maybe even just his father's friend) pulled strings for him.

Here is a mirror of the Barnes video(s). The page was different when I downloaded, though. There were only two vids then. One a short clip in QT and WMA formats, and the other long one in mp4 and WMA formats.

BlackGriffen

macvillage.net · Aug 28, 2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
In Bush's defense he may not have known that his father (maybe even just his father's friend) pulled strings for him.

That's somewhat insulting his intelegence.

A national guard spot was something anyone that age dreamed of. Extremely hard to get... yet even with low scores on qualification tests, he got it.

Must have known something was up.

Perhaps his father never said directly "I'm going to pull some strings so you don't have to go to war like a normal man your age". But he must have known something was going on.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 05:53 PM

Let's be fair here: if your country is fighting a war which is unpopular and anyone here had the choice to perform their service overseas or domestically, who would choose the battlefield and who would choose to serve here?

MacGorilla · Aug 28, 2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Let's be fair here: if your country is fighting a war which is unpopular and anyone here had the choice to perform their service overseas or domestically, who would choose the battlefield and who would choose to serve here?

Hmmmm I was in the Navy and choices were rarely offered; it would never happen. Unless you asking hypotheticly which is silly since the affore mentioned scenario wont happen.

Luca Rescigno · Aug 28, 2004, 05:59 PM

If you want to be fair, why not be FAIR. No one person should be allowed to get out of military service because they are in a high position. It's not fair that GWB was able to escape service in Vietnam because of his family, while Kerry was unable to. Obviously he and his family would have WANTED for him to avoid going to Vietnam, but that's what the draft is. If you're selected to go, you go. Kerry did.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
If you want to be fair, why not be FAIR. No one person should be allowed to get out of military service because they are in a high position. It's not fair that GWB was able to escape service in Vietnam because of his family, while Kerry was unable to. Obviously he and his family would have WANTED for him to avoid going to Vietnam, but that's what the draft is. If you're selected to go, you go. Kerry did.

Kerry tried to get out of serving at all. He just didn't wake up and run off to the recruiting office. He tried everything he could to avoid it. And one he got into service he did try to get out as soon as the opportunity presented itself. If he was a real hero, a real patriot as he's made out to be then he would have remained in the war until it's conclusion.

MacGorilla · Aug 28, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
If you want to be fair, why not be FAIR. No one person should be allowed to get out of military service because they are in a high position. It's not fair that GWB was able to escape service in Vietnam because of his family, while Kerry was unable to. Obviously he and his family would have WANTED for him to avoid going to Vietnam, but that's what the draft is. If you're selected to go, you go. Kerry did.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Hmmmm I was in the Navy and choices were rarely offered; it would never happen. Unless you asking hypotheticly which is silly since the affore mentioned scenario wont happen.

Then explain how Kerry got the jobs where he avoided combat as much as possible. Explain how he was able to return to the U.S. so easily to a cushy desk job and not lift another finger. Somehow he volunteered and got the positions that were the easiest to take and resulted in the least possible exposure to true combat.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 28, 2004, 06:06 PM

If anything I think exceptions to the rule could be made for sons/daughters of Congressmen/Senators/high executive officers because the last thing you want is to have a high ranking official's child to be held hostage and used for leverage during a war.

zigzag · 07:00 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't think that anybody has called Kerry unpatriotic.

See three posts below yours.

It's not uncommon. I shouldn't take anything people post on a board like this seriously, but as long as I'm here I figure I'll speak to it.

I don't like the way people have slipped into the habit of defaming national guardsmen. Service in the National Guard or Reserves is service. If anything, suggesting otherwise is questioning the patriotism of Guardsman. People need to knock that off.

As before, it's not serving in the Guard - I've known people in the Guard, and Bush himself seems to have served well for the most part. It's a question of privilege, forthrightness, and values (again, see Powell and Cohen). Joining the Guard is fine, but engaging in the pretense that he didn't receive special treatment in order to avoid the draft is another thing. Similarly, as long as Kerry's past and veracity is questioned as bitterly as it has been (and while I agree that he's probably drawn undue attention to it, his opposition would be scrutinizing it anyway), Bush's will be subject to comparison.

Let's face it, we're all sensitive to arrows thrown one way or another. At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the whole country to engage in a short-term orgy of finger-pointing, confession, and forgiveness concerning Vietnam, get it out of our system, and move beyond it. Wishful thinking, I know.

Regrettably, the tension won't go away for another generation. I wasn't quite old enough to serve but the controversy still stirs a good deal of emotion. Barnes' statement struck a chord because, as it was for him, visiting the Vietnam Memorial is one of the most stirring experiences I've ever had.

Spheric Harlot · Aug 29, 2004, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Well that settles it then. Next time I need an opinion on anything I'll email Barnes.

Did you intentionally seek out Purple Hearts

Are you saying he *intentionally* tried to get shot at?

How the hell does that jive with your claim that he did his darndest to avoid combat?

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 29, 2004, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by zigzag:
but engaging in the pretense that he didn't receive special treatment in order to avoid the draft is another thing. Similarly, as long as Kerry's past and veracity is questioned as bitterly as it has been (and while I agree that he's probably drawn undue attention to it, his opposition would be scrutinizing it anyway), Bush's will be subject to comparison.

Let's face it, we're all sensitive to arrows thrown one way or another. At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the whole country to engage in a short-term orgy of finger-pointing, confession, and forgiveness concerning Vietnam, get it out of our system, and move beyond it. Wishful thinking, I know.

Regrettably, the tension won't go away for another generation. I wasn't quite old enough to serve but the controversy still stirs a good deal of emotion. Barnes' statement struck a chord because, as it was for him, visiting the Vietnam Memorial is one of the most stirring experiences I've ever had.

What I really object to is the equation of National Guard service with draft dodging. I see this as much more bifrucated. You are either immediately deployable or you are not. Civilians subject to the draft are not immediately deployable. Once they volunteer, they have placed themselves in a category where they can be sent to war at a moments notice. That, to me, is the essance of service. Whether or not the military chooses to send the individual isn't really the point because it is utterly outside the control of the individual.

The only way volunteering can be seen as reducing the risk to the individual is if volunteering is perceived as reducing the risk of being deployed. But that involves a lot of risk and guesswork because nobody knows the future.

If volunteering to reduce risk is draft dodging, then I'm afraid Kerry is also a draft dodger. He came up in the draft for the Army. He volunteered for the Navy in order not to be drafted into the Army. Most people (including Navy veterans) would recognize that the Navy was a safer place in the Vietnam war than the Army. Vietnam was a ground war, not primarily a Navy war. So should we condemn Kerry for draft dodging? He performed the same maneuver as Bush. He volunteered for a perceived-to-be-safer branch to avoid being drafted into a perceived-to-be-dangerous branch. You will recall that when Kerry volunteered for swiftboat duty, they were not patrolling rivers. He has said himself that he never intended to be involved in the war.

Suppose things had worked out differently? Suppose incoming president Nixon had reversed Johnson's policy and activated the Guard (as GHW Bush did 20 years later). Suppose as a consequence Bush had been sent into combat with his unit. Suppose also that Admiral Zumwalt had not redeployed the swiftboats so that Kerry's tour in the Navy was the one he actually volunteered for, not the one he got. In that parallel universe, would we be condemning Kerry for volunteering for the Navy and praising Bush for volunteering for the National Guard?

To me that makes no sense. Once both men volunteered, it was all out of their hands. Once they volunteered they were by no means dodging anything. If anything, they were preempting the draft. They served, and ought to be honored for serving. And unless they did something dishonorable within their service, or lied about their service, then they all fit within the category of honor called veterans.

chris v · Aug 29, 2004, 07:51 AM

I love how you've just re-defined "draft dodging" to mean a whole new thing. When I was growing up, "draft dodgers" were sneaking over the border into Canada, or shooting off toes.

Now, it turns out that "draft dodgers" were also fighting in Vietnam. Excellent Orwellian twisting of words, there, Simey. You decry Kerry's post war remarks (quotes from other soldiers, which he was merely repeating, and stated to be such) as "dis-honoring" American soldiers, then you go and call everyone who volunteered for the Navy a draft doger. Can conservatives not have their cake and eat it too?

Remember, you common people, this ENTIRE election is now about Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, and Europa has ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

SimeyTheLimey · 08:38 AM

Originally posted by chris v:
I love how you've just re-defined "draft dodging" to mean a whole new thing. When I was growing up, "draft dodgers" were sneaking over the border into Canada, or shooting off toes.

Now, it turns out that "draft dodgers" were also fighting in Vietnam. Excellent Orwellian twisting of words, there, Simey. You decry Kerry's post war remarks (quotes from other soldiers, which he was merely repeating, and stated to be such) as "dis-honoring" American soldiers, then you go and call everyone who volunteered for the Navy a draft doger. Can conservatives not have their cake and eat it too?

Remember, you common people, this ENTIRE election is now about Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, Swiftboat, and Europa has ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

Do you know what an if . . . then construction is? I was dealing with a hypothetical. If draft dodging includes people who volunteer for safer service than they might get through the draft, then Kerry would also qualify as a draft dodger. I brought it up because zigzag (and others) keep referring to volunteers in the National Guard as having dodged the draft when what they actually did was preempt it by volunteering themselves for service.

However, it's a hypothetical. Kerry wasn't a draft dodger in any perjorative sense. He was a volunteer for military service. So was Bush. The only difference is that fate took Kerry to Vietnam after he volunteered to join the Navy, whereas it didn't take Bush there after he joined the Air National Guard.

By the way, one of the things that interests me when people who haven't served comment on this is the conviction they have that you could in fact volunteer for Vietnam. You generally can't volunteer to be sent anywhere. Once you are in the service, you go where you are sent. People were drafted and sent nowhere near Vietnam. We still had troops in Germany, Korea, Britain, Alaska, Italy, Louisiana, and so on. Only a small minority of the armed forces were ever in Vietnam. Whether or not you went was quite involuntary.

Anyway, learn to spot non-literal argumentative structures in future. You misread my entire post which was structured to distinguish voluntary service of all kinds from draft dodging. That's why I wrote "[o]nce they volunteered they were by no means dodging anything."

Luca Rescigno · Aug 29, 2004, 08:42 AM

As Capt. McDuff has said earlier, it would have been natural for anyone of draft age during Vietnam to try to somehow avoid the most dangerous positions in the war. Joining the National Guard is fine, trying to get a Navy position is fine, and I don't see anything wrong with alternative service like the Peace Corps for conscientious objectors. Those are all working within the rules to ensure your own personal safety. You can't call someone unpatriotic for doing as much as they can within the system to protect themselves. I'd do that if there was a draft right now, and I bet most of you guys attacking Kerry for what he did would too.

The point of contention is whether Bush was completely within the rules when getting into the National Guard, or if he was helped there. If he was helped there by his father, then he was unfairly favored. Kerry may have tried to get out of fighting, but he was not given any special treatment in his attempts to do so.

And some of you guys try to make it seem like all Kerry wanted was to go to Vietnam to get medals or something. What? If I were sent into war, that's the last thing I'd be thinking about, and not many people can honestly say otherwise. Meanwhile, I feel obliged to say that GWB probably didn't have a whole lot of say in his father's actions regarding his Guard position. He probably suspected something was up if his father suggested he join the National Guard, but I think it reflects more on GHWB than GWB. And I can understand both their actions - I just question whether it's very ethical to give one person special treatment in a situation as serious as war.

chris v · Aug 29, 2004, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Do you know what an if . . . then construction is? I was dealing with a hypothetical. If draft dodging includes people who volunteer for safer service than they might get through the draft, then Kerry would also qualify as a draft dodger. I brought it up because zigzag (and others) keep referring to volunteers in the National Guard as having dodged the draft when what they actually did was preempt it by volunteering themselves for service.

However, it's a hypothetical. Kerry wasn't a draft dodger in any perjorative sense. He was a volunteer for military service. So was Bush. The only difference is that fate took Kerry to Vietnam after he volunteered to join the Navy, whereas it didn't take Bush there after he joined the Air National Guard.

By the way, one of the things that interests me when people who haven't served comment on this is the conviction they have that you could in fact volunteer for Vietnam. You generally can't volunteer to be sent anywhere. Once you are in the service, you go where you are sent. People were drafted and sent nowhere near Vietnam. We still had troops in Germany, Korea, Britain, Alaska, Italy, Louisiana, and so on. Only a small minority of the armed forces were ever in Vietnam. Whether or not you went was quite involuntary.

Anyway, learn to spot non-literal argumentative structures in future. You misread my entire post which was structured to distinguish voluntary service of all kinds from draft dodging. That's why I wrote "[o]nce they volunteered they were by no means dodging anything."

I've gotten so used to people on both sides lobbing out allusions and innuendo, with the express purpose of later being able to use semantical exactitude to say "I never said exactly that" that I inferred that to your post. Your expansion on the idea put my earlier suspicions to rest.

FWIW, I sure would like to stop re-living Vietnam and get down to the brass tacks of what's actually happening in America TODAY. Am I alone in this?

Capt.McDuff · Aug 29, 2004, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Are you saying he *intentionally* tried to get shot at?

How the hell does that jive with your claim that he did his darndest to avoid combat?

More like intentionally injured himself knowing that three strikes = free trip back home.

Getting a Purple Heart doesn't mean that an enemy injured you. Heck a person can throw a grenade into a sack of rice, get some shrapnel, and claim it came from the enemy. Who is to know? Doesn't it make you wonder why Kerry won't release the medical records related to the PH injuries?

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 29, 2004, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
More like intentionally injured himself knowing that three strikes = free trip back home.

Getting a Purple Heart doesn't mean that an enemy injured you. Heck a person can throw a grenade into a sack of rice, get some shrapnel, and claim it came from the enemy. Who is to know? Doesn't it make you wonder why Kerry won't release the medical records related to the PH injuries?

I don't think he intentionally injured himself. I don't even think that the harshest critics among the swiftvets say he intentionally injured himself. At worst, I read them to say that after unintentionally injuring himself he demanded a purple heart, when others might not have done so. Then once he got his third one, he requested to be reassigned out of combat.

But even if true, that is a long way from intentionally injuring himself.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 29, 2004, 09:28 AM

Only a sick person would intentionally injure one's self, but, a Purple Heart should only be earned if it was an injury caused by an enemy. What if the injury wasn't caused by the enemy and one got a Purple Heart that wasn't deserved?

Spheric Harlot · Aug 29, 2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Only a sick person would intentionally injure one's self, but, a Purple Heart should only be earned if it was an injury caused by an enemy. What if the injury wasn't caused by the enemy and one got a Purple Heart that wasn't deserved?

You mean victims of friendly fire bleed differently?

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 29, 2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Capt.McDuff:
Only a sick person would intentionally injure one's self, but, a Purple Heart should only be earned if it was an injury caused by an enemy. What if the injury wasn't caused by the enemy and one got a Purple Heart that wasn't deserved?

The regs are more complicated than that. I don't know the details, but injuries don't have to be directly caused by the enemy.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 29, 2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You mean victims of friendly fire bleed differently?

Victims of friendly fire cannot receive the Purple Heart unless the enemy was clearly around and the intent was to harm the enemy.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 29, 2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The regs are more complicated than that. I don't know the details, but injuries don't have to be directly caused by the enemy.

There are few exceptions but the criteria is that the enemy must be in some way responsible for the injury. One of the few exceptions is injury sustained by friendly fire when the friendly forces were firing in the direction of the enemy. An explosion which results in shrapnel wounds caused by negligence won't qualify, for example.

See: Paragraph 2-8, Army Regulation 600-8-22 (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r600_8_22.pdf)

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 29, 2004, 09:57 AM

This has a pretty good run down on the criteria.

Capt.McDuff · Aug 29, 2004, 10:01 AM

I wonder what the critera were about 35 years ago though?

zigzag · Aug 29, 2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What I really object to is the equation of National Guard service with draft dodging. I see this as much more bifrucated. You are either immediately deployable or you are not. Civilians subject to the draft are not immediately deployable. Once they volunteer, they have placed themselves in a category where they can be sent to war at a moments notice. That, to me, is the essance of service. Whether or not the military chooses to send the individual isn't really the point because it is utterly outside the control of the individual.

The only way volunteering can be seen as reducing the risk to the individual is if volunteering is perceived as reducing the risk of being deployed. But that involves a lot of risk and guesswork because nobody knows the future.

If volunteering to reduce risk is draft dodging, then I'm afraid Kerry is also a draft dodger. . . .

I adopt Luca's reply and reiterate that it's not the service itself that's in question, it's the issue of privilege and how it played a role during that era, which was much different than this era. General Powell has spoken directly to this, and there's resentment about it just as there's resentment about Kerry's opposition to the war. I can't help it if the Guard became known at that time as a refuge for people of privilege wanting to avoid the draft and avoid combat, but it did. Your defense of service in general is fine but doesn't change this fact.

As for Kerry, there's no question that he wanted to avoid the war - he has said so. It's quite possible that he could've come out of the service without ever seeing combat, and we wouldn't be talking about this. It's also clear that he didn't stay at risk any longer than he had to. I also agree that he's probably called undue attention to his service in order to compensate for the dovish reputation of the Democratic party. But the fact remains that he did see combat, and it's inevitable that the scrutiny he's receiving is going to reflect back on Bush. Political reality dictates that anyone who condemns Kerry will have to answer for the special treatment that Bush received, and vice versa.

BlackGriffen · Aug 29, 2004, 10:53 AM

A more cogent question: why didn't Bush earn this medal (TX Faithful Service Medal)? Here are the requirements:

Texas Govt Code 431.134 Para 1
Texas Faithful Service Medal

The Texas Faithful Service Medal shall be awarded to a member of the state military forces who has completed five years of honorable service during which the person has shown fidelity to duty, efficient service, and great loyalty to the state.

This sounds like the, "Good job, soldier, you showed up," award. Why didn't Bush earn it? Was the law different back then?

Bush's ANG-22 lists him as in the guard for more than five years.

Or is it listed in some documentation I haven't seen yet?

BlackGriffen

Earth Mk. II · Aug 29, 2004, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by chris v:
FWIW, I sure would like to stop re-living Vietnam and get down to the brass tacks of what's actually happening in America TODAY. Am I alone in this?

no.

SimeyTheLimey · 12:35 PM

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
A more cogent question: why didn't Bush earn this medal (TX Faithful Service Medal)? Here are the requirements:

This sounds like the, "Good job, soldier, you showed up," award. Why didn't Bush earn it? Was the law different back then?

Bush's ANG-22 lists him as in the guard for more than five years.

Or is it listed in some documentation I haven't seen yet?

BlackGriffen

Maybe because he was in the Air National Guard, not the Army National Guard?

They have been completely different branches of the military since 1947.

That's just one possiblility. There are others. His discharge papers may simply be incomplete. This is actually pretty common with discharge papers. The only things that the clerk typing it out has much interest in getting right are the name, social security number, dates of service (but you need to watch them on that) and character of discharge. They don't always take that much care with minor things like service awards. When I got my DD-214 I basically had to walk the guy through it and more than once I had to get him to correct mistakes. If you look at copies of Bush's he wasn't there in person and didn't sign it. So minor things may simply not have been recorded.

Another possibility is simply that nobody cared enough to award him something that he was eligible for but doesn't really count for anything. The (enlisted only) Good Conduct Medal is a bit like that. You usually have to remind people when you are up for one. If you don't remind people, they tend not to remember to put the paperwork in.

Without having served myself in the Air National Guard I can't really speculate further. But I would just underscore two things: 1. things aren't quite as smooth in the military as civilians suppose. 2. An honorable discharge is what counts. If there are bad things in your record, you won't get the honorable discharge. It's there specifically to avoid these kind of impossible problems of trying to reconstruct a person's records decades after they and everyone they served with left the armed forces.

version · Aug 29, 2004, 02:05 PM

Kerry was the 'more heroic' during the time of the Vietnam war, so says Bush.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3609312.stm

SimeyTheLimey · Aug 29, 2004, 02:42 PM

BlackGriffin: let me add as a PS something I just remembered. One of my medals isn't on my discharge papers either! As a matter of fact, it (along with another one the same) is the highest medal I was awarded.

It's my end of tour award from Germany. The commanding general of my division signed it and mailed it to me after I left active duty. It didn't seem worth the effort to get my records amended for something so small, so I just threw it in my files. Nine years later I doubt I could prove I was awarded it unless I could find the certificate, and I am not entirely sure I know where that is.