[phoenixboy70]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...316030,00.html

/sorry in german.

en anglais:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ool/index.html

[PacHead]

It's not 400 students. I believe it's about half kids, half adults from the things I've read. At least 10 are already dead.

This is just terrorist jihadists practicing their violent religion, which is basically killing people, especially small children, that's why they seized the school in the first place. They have this primitive notion that they will be martyred somehow by blowing themselves up plus a whole bunch of small kids, and anybody else who is unfortunate enough to be around.

There's also savage women terrorists among the group, and they have explosives belts on. A nice little collection of friendly people, these terrorists are.

My guess is, this won't end up too well, considering the wackjobs involved.

[Spliffdaddy]

The Russians have a cool way of dealing with terrorists who hold hostages.

Remember the movie theater? Oddly, no terrorists lived through it.

They were gassed, then shot. Of course, almost a hundred hostages died - but that's several hundred less than were going to die, anyway.

[badidea]

129 hostages died and I really hope your post was sarcasm!!!!

[Spliffdaddy]

No, I was serious.

The Russians are very good at dealing with these situations.

They have ballz.

I consider the raid on the movie theater to have been a huge success.

Just when you thought there was no solution - they found one.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

Just when you thought there was no solution - they found one.

Have the attacks stopped since the Russian government killed 100+ of their citizens?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Logic:
Have the attacks stopped since the Russian government killed 100+ of their citizens?

The attacks by the dead terrorists have stopped completely.

It's quite amazing how a mere six feet of dirt can hinder their plans.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The attacks by the dead terrorists have stopped completely.

It's quite amazing how a mere six feet of dirt can hinder their plans.

Didn't think so, but thanks for playing.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The Russians have a cool way of dealing with terrorists who hold hostages.

Remember the movie theater? Oddly, no terrorists lived through it.

They were gassed, then shot. Of course, almost a hundred hostages died - but that's several hundred less than were going to die, anyway.

True

The Russians dealt with that situation in a traditional Russian way. A big F U to the terrorists, their ideas of playing the game and just go. I consider the theater storming to have been a success. The people in there were already dead under conventional circumstances but the Russians managed to save quite a lot of them. I was impressed.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by PacHead:
It's not 400 students. I believe it's about half kids, half adults from the things I've read. At least 10 are already dead.

This is just terrorist jihadists practicing their violent religion, which is basically killing people, especially small children, that's why they seized the school in the first place. They have this primitive notion that they will be martyred somehow by blowing themselves up plus a whole bunch of small kids, and anybody else who is unfortunate enough to be around.

There's also savage women terrorists among the group, and they have explosives belts on. A nice little collection of friendly people, these terrorists are.

My guess is, this won't end up too well, considering the wackjobs involved.

uh... this doesn't have anything to do with jihad at all.
they aren't doing this for martyrdom, they're doing it for
1. revenge.
2. seperation.
Also, the 'savage women terrorists' are called "black widows" for a reason, their husbands were killed in fighting (most likely with russians)... hence they aren't as mindless fScks as you would like to believe (ie. in a documentary on the moscow theatre hostage taking, a russian survivor who lost her daughter and husband in the gassing said she would now like to strap on explosives and kill a bunch of chechens and that in a perverse way, that meant she now understood how the chechens felt).

Not to say that i like what they're doing, but the russian army is f'd up beyond all belief (i have a couple of friends who have 'illegally' - as if that means in russia - run from serving in the russian army and have told me its fairly recent pathetic and dangerous state). Russians sure as hell want to stay away from their own army, what do you think they'll be like to 'non-russians'. Russia is embarrassing itself in chechnya proper.

Strategically speaking, these methods may actually work, disgusting as they are. Or they may backfire beyond belief.
Hey, if russia wants to reap the rewards of empire building and maintaining, they're sure as hell are going to suck up some costs too.

@spliffdaddy... actually the moscow theatre outcome was a failure in that it displayed how poor planning/execution led to the unnecessary deaths of 100+ hostages, most of which were likely due to:
pisspoor emergency response (many died from suffocation because they were taken out of the theatre carried on someone's back, bending their necks and closing off their air passage. More died because they simply didn't have enough people to administer the antidote-this was just idiocy in planning).
That's the problem army has with technology... they think a novel way to kill people is a complete solution.

Russia needs to get a better mind than putin's in office.
Maybe a chess player.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by realitybath:
Not to say that i like what they're doing, but the russian army is f'd up beyond all belief (i have a couple of friends who have 'illegally' - as if that means in russia - run from serving in the russian army and have told me its fairly recent pathetic and dangerous state).

i just saw a special on this the other night on tv. it was about a group of women who called themselves "the mothers of russian soldiers", who all had either lost their sons (due to "hazing"), or had them "taken away" by the russian army.

the whole state of affairs is a catastrophy, and might turn out to be a real threat to stability in europe. we all know what a fun and "humane" group of people the russian mob is...

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
Have the attacks stopped since the Russian government killed 100+ of their citizens?

The russian governement responded to a crisis. the killer 'mulsims' are the guilty ones.

[itai195]

Wait I forgot, was I supposed to sympathize with people who take hostage an entire school and threaten to kill the children?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by realitybath:
uh... this doesn't have anything to do with jihad at all.
they aren't doing this for martyrdom,

Have to disagree with you there. They call their dead martyrs and they claim they're fighting a holy war. If they weren't muslims, they wouldn't be blowing themselves up.

The Chechen separatist website, kavkazcenter.com, said Mr Yandarbiyev had "become a Shakhid" - a martyr in the Islamists' holy war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/S...148091,00.html

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by itai195:
Wait I forgot, was I supposed to sympathize with people who take hostage an entire school and threaten to kill the children?

Some people seem to think so, because these hostage taking, children murdering, "freedom fighters" have the moral high ground. I haven't figured out yet how that happened, but when I do, I'll be sure to let you in on it.

[itai195]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Some people seem to think so, because these hostage taking, children murdering, "freedom fighters" have the moral high ground. I haven't figured out yet how that happened, but when I do, I'll be sure to let you in on it.

Thanks, so confused.

[Logic]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Some people seem to think so, because these hostage taking, children murdering, "freedom fighters" have the moral high ground. I haven't figured out yet how that happened, but when I do, I'll be sure to let you in on it.

Yup, because if you "agree" with some of what they do you'll have to agree with everything. Just like dropping nukes on civilians, selling WMD's to despots known to use it on civilians and systematic torture of prisoners is something that all Americans support.

[Zimphire]

These people that are taking these kids hostages are cowards. They have no self respect.

They are the slime on the bottom of the pool in the middle of a trailer park.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Yup, because if you "agree" with some of what they do you'll have to agree with everything.

But you do "agree" with this action by Chechen rebels, do you not?

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
But you do "agree" with this action by Chechen rebels, do you not?

Of course not. But I know some of the macnners would love to make that claim. What made you think I supported this?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
Of course not. But I know some of the macnners would love to make that claim. What made you think I supported this?

You wouldn't support it if the Palestinians did something similar? After all, these kids are Russian (Zionist) government supporters, the blood of the Chechens (Palestinians) is on their hands.

[vmarks]

There's something in the news that no one wants to say, as mainstream media does their best to cover the story of the Russian school hijacked by Islamic terrorists� without mentioning that they are Islamic terrorists.


ABCNEWS.com calls them "secessionist Chechen rebels."


CBS News calls them "militants" and "hostage takers."


CNN.com calls them a "group" of "attackers."


MSNBC calls them "hostage-takers" and "Chechen rebels."


USATODAY.com calls them "armed militants."


Reuters.com calls them an "armed gang," and says "It remained unclear who the attackers were."


But for some reason, a Mufti in North Ossetia appealed to the "gang" today to free "some" of the hostages --the children, who are considered Muslim because all children are born Muslim, and should therefore not be murdered by their brethren: N. Ossetia's mufti urges hostage-takers to free infants.


BESLAN. Sept 1 (Interfax) - Mufti Ruslan Valgasov of North Ossetia has appealed to the gunmen who have seized a school in Beslan and taken hostage hundreds of children and adults to free at least infants, who, according to his information, are present among the hostages, and organize food supply for the captives.


"Children are Allah Most High's pure and innocent creatures. As Prophet Mohammed said, 'every baby is born a Muslim'� or, in other words, a creature obedient to God, and therefore any Muslim who harms a child harms his younger brother," the mufti told Interfax.


-- credit to a blog I read.

[voodoo]

What's with all the Euros? (€)

[vmarks]

Must be your text encoding in your browser- they aren't appearing here.

EDIT: should be fixed now.

[itai195]

Originally posted by voodoo:
What's with all the Euros? (�)

Switch to UTF-8 character encoding (of course, this appears to mess up your location).

[voodoo]

Originally posted by itai195:
Switch to UTF-8 character encoding (of course, this appears to mess up your location).

Hum, yes that freaks my location but the Euros have disappeared. Lessee if I can fix that.

[edit: all good now I think]

[edit again: no, I can't use UTF-8 it screws up all the European webpages, Spanish, Norwegian and Icelandic - darn]

[angaq0k]

It is a very sad moment when children and innocents are used to make a claim for freedom...

I hope they'll hear reason and stop before there are any victims.


What a very very sad day.

Edit: Actually, that is the stupidest political statement I ever saw.

To hell with them.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
What a very very sad day.

This has been going on for decades, no big surprise actually. This is what the world gets when they make excuses for and appeases terrorists.

The same people who make justifications for the palestinian terorists all the time are also to blame for this. These sorts of things will only get worse, and hopefully one of the appeasers will get taken hostage next time.

One does not appease or make excuses or find any justifications for these terrorists.

[GlobalNomad]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The Russians have a cool way of dealing with terrorists who hold hostages.

Remember the movie theater? Oddly, no terrorists lived through it.

They were gassed, then shot. Of course, almost a hundred hostages died - but that's several hundred less than were going to die, anyway.

The terrorists had explosives strapped to themselves. If they new something was going wrong they would have blown everything up and nobody would have survived. Don't you think they only used that as a last resort.

It was great. The gas nocked everyone out before they new anything was going wrong. Sure some people died, but think what could have happened if it went wrong.
Yet still some people had a cry.

If they did nothing people would have had a cry:
"why didn't you try and save my family by any means possible" (like that russian sub when they didn't want help from the American sub that could have docked and saved them)

People still had a cry after they did it and saved lives. Its great that non of the terrorists surrvied.


---
more rambelings.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
You wouldn't support it if the Palestinians did something similar? After all, these kids are Russian (Zionist) government supporters, the blood of the Chechens (Palestinians) is on their hands.

If you repeat something often enough people will start to believe you. It seems like that saying holds some truth, the constant attacks on me by some of the macnners seem to have had the wanted effect.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by itai195:
You wouldn't support it if the Palestinians did something similar? After all, these kids are Russian (Zionist) government supporters, the blood of the Chechens (Palestinians) is on their hands.

I'm stunned to see that Zimphire, Logan, dolton, djohnson and whoever else have successfully managed to obscure with their undifferentiated extremist screeching everything and anything Logic, eklipse, and others have been saying.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by PacHead:
This has been going on for decades, no big surprise actually. This is what the world gets when they make excuses for and appeases terrorists.

Ah yes - which, by your pretzel logic, is why the storming of that musical theater in Moscow, which resulted in the deaths of one hundred and twenty-nine hostages, was such a resounding success.

No excuses, no appeasement - that sure learned 'em, didn't it?

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The Russians have a cool way of dealing with terrorists who hold hostages.

Remember the movie theater? Oddly, no terrorists lived through it.

They were gassed, then shot. Of course, almost a hundred hostages died - but that's several hundred less than were going to die, anyway.

If Bubba (AKA Copper) Spliffdaddy was going to die would you be so gung ho for the gassing? Wouldn't you want to sit it out and hope your metallic son would emerge alive after some negotiations. Ya know. If he is gonna die lets give the copper pipe a chance.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I'm not stunned to see that Zimphire, Logan, dolton, djohnson and whoever else have successfully managed to refute the undifferentiated extremist screeching Logic, eklipse, and others have been spouting.

Fixed.™

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Fixed.™

Very clever, Crash.

What exactly is NOT differentiated about trying to separate the goals of the terrorists from the methods they choose to achieve them?

You think that "nuke 'em all" and labelling anybody who questions that approach "anti-Semitic" and "terrorist-sympathizer" is rational and differentiated?

I'm impressed.

-s*

[eklipse]

Originally posted by itai195:
You wouldn't support it if the Palestinians did something similar? After all, these kids are Russian (Zionist) government supporters, the blood of the Chechens (Palestinians) is on their hands.

I dunno about Logic, but, I'm leaning towards supporting Russia regarding the Chechen issue.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You think that "nuke 'em all" and labelling anybody who questions that approach "anti-Semitic" and "terrorist-sympathizer" is rational and differentiated?

Mostly I was just f'in with ya.

But it’s laughable that Logic or eklipse (or most anyone else that for that matter) have any answers other than the usual jaw-flapping. The problem is, in REAL LIFE there are hostages, and mean mo-fos holding them. Jaw-flapping is great on an internet forum- but it does DICK SQUAT in real life. Right now, the Russians have to deal with the situation in the later.

Terrorism itself isn't rational. Unfortunately, dealing with it isn’t fun and games, and is best left up to those who know that an extreme response is probably going to be the realistic approach, not touchy-feely jaw-flapping ******** that doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

But what can you say? Some prefer the 'Keystone Cops' One Day In September approach to ‘dealing with’ terrorism, in which ALL the hostages are killed, and the majority of terrorists not only aren't killed, but are SET FREE by the aforementioned Keystone Cops appeasing dipshits.

[badidea]

Oh pleeeeeeaase guys!
I am as sure as my future death that there is nobody in this forum who would support the death of the hostages. If there is a clean way to kill the terrorists without harming any innocent then please DO IT NOW!!! ASAP!!!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Mostly I was just f'in with ya.

Let's just leave it at that.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by GlobalNomad:
The terrorists had explosives strapped to themselves. If they new something was going wrong they would have blown everything up and nobody would have survived.

kinda makes you wonder, huh? i mean, how many seconds did they have until they noticed that gas was filling the theatre?

they had MORE than enough time to detonate those bombs...yet nothing happened. the answer is of course, those bombs were "fakes".

[PacHead]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:


kinda makes you wonder, huh? i mean, how many seconds did they have until they noticed that gas was filling the theatre?

they had MORE than enough time to detonate those bombs...yet nothing happened. the answer is of course, those bombs were "fakes". [/B]

Wow, you should offer your expertise to the Russians. The "knockout" gas the Russians used was so damn powerful that no, the terrorist swinebags did not have time to detonate anything at all. Why do you think so many hostages died ? The Russians administered the gas just fine, only problem is, they did not put too much thought into what to do afterwards, inorder to treat the hostages.

Fake bombs ? Yeah right. Your theory is ridiculous, outrageous, false and not true. Muslim terrorist killers with bombs strapped on themselves do not use "fake" bombs. How are they going to martyr themselves without killing anybody ? DUH

Maybe the Russians should just storm this school. Maybe these muslim terrorist killers are also using "fake" bombs, if one is to follow your theory.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Wow, you should offer your expertise to the Russians. The "knockout" gas the Russians used was so damn powerful that no, the terrorist swinebags did not have time to detonate anything at all. Why do you think so many hostages died ?

mostly because, they either already were very weak, or because they were old.

most of the terrorits died from gunshot wounds inflicted by the russian special kommandos.

otoh, of course, a lot of the hostages didn't even get "knocked out" by the gas. again, more than enough time to detonate those bombs.

and no, i'm not saying that EVERY single chechien terrorist uses "fakes". it just seems like these did.

[Troll]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Wow, you should offer your expertise to the Russians. The "knockout" gas the Russians used was so damn powerful that no, the terrorist swinebags did not have time to detonate anything at all. Why do you think so many hostages died ? The Russians administered the gas just fine, only problem is, they did not put too much thought into what to do afterwards, inorder to treat the hostages.

I read a rather detailed review of the Opera attack. Most of what you say seems accurate except the last part. What they said in the article I read is that most of the victims died because they had been too dehydrated to take the quantity of gas administered. Either the Russians didn't accurately work out how dehydrated the hostages would be at that stage, or they did but had to presume that the terrorists had been drinking more than the hostages.

Either way, the problem now is that the Russians played that card. You can bet the guys in the hospital have gas masks.

[GlobalNomad]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:


kinda makes you wonder, huh? i mean, how many seconds did they have until they noticed that gas was filling the theatre?

they had MORE than enough time to detonate those bombs...yet nothing happened. the answer is of course, those bombs were "fakes". [/B]

No not really. This gas is extremlly fast acting. They didn't even sence the gas until they were just about to pass out... Possibly if they had a 'dead man' switch the bombs would have gone off.


there was a big article about in Time Magazine

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by GlobalNomad:
No not really. This gas is extremlly fast acting. They didn't even sence the gas until they were just about to pass out...

i also saw a long special on tv which was rather controversial, and questioned the validitiy of the reports that the gas was that "fast acting". maybe not all of the terrorits could have detonated their bombs, but at least one or two should have had ample time to react.

we'll, i guess we'll never know for sure. the russians took their chances and saved quite a few lives, while taking others. we also don't lnow all the options they had, - not by a longshot.

[rambo47]

The Russians have always taken a "black and white" view of the world, especially when things like the Chechen terrorists are involved. They specialize in heavy-handed responses, so stay tuned for this one. If the terrorists do indeed blow themselves and the kids up, you may want to sand well back from Grozny.

I was at Bucknell with a kid on an exchange program from Russia. He went back to perform his military service (he was in their version of ROTC) and we've stayed in touch over the years with email, letters, pictures, etc. He's now career military and acting as advisor to Putin's crew. He has been the voice of reason for quite some time, working to quell the voices that advocate hard-line responses to situations just like this one. If the situation goes in the pot and the extremists call the response, ALL of Grozny will pay. The Russians will level the city, maybe even use chemical artillery weapons on it. I know this all sounds like a bad Tom Clancy novel, but I believe it could very well happen.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Have to disagree with you there. They call their dead martyrs and they claim they're fighting a holy war. If they weren't muslims, they wouldn't be blowing themselves up.

The Chechen separatist website, kavkazcenter.com, said Mr Yandarbiyev had "become a Shakhid" - a martyr in the Islamists' holy war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/S...148091,00.html

yeah, the guardian is a great paper,but your painting with too broad a brush(which, uh, in case you missed it, was my point)... you'll also notice:

women moved by familly, not ideology

and, a good article, explaining the reasoning behind what i said(ie. this is about people, not ideology);
Europe's darkest corner: Yesterday's rigged election in Chechnya demonstrates the bankruptcy of Russian policy in the region
with statements such as:

Moreover, most Chechens I know are viscerally opposed to the Islamic fundamentalism that has slowly been infiltrating their republic during the past 10 years.

,

The Arab zealots have kept on coming, though in much smaller numbers than the Russians claim.

'much smaller' is important here... as the spin that the russian government is putting on the terrorist situation is based on their own self-interests(seeking international validation for a heavy handed chechnya policy in addition American goodwill linked to any 'fight against terror), not on solving the problem.

The tragedy of Chechnya is that most Chechens are fed up with the zealots, but have nowhere else to turn. They would almost certainly give up the hope of independence for a peaceful existence in the Russian state - if only the Russians would guarantee them basic rights.

but instead:

Chechens are governed by two vicious and criminal armed groups. Russian soldiers earn money from extra pay and black market oil trading, and have every incentive to stay, treating the Chechen population as a target for extortion and intimidation.The second group, the Kadyrovtsy, are Chechens loyal to Ramzan Kadyrov, son of the late pro-Moscow Chechen leader Akhmad Kadyrov. Kadyrov, 27, whose Balkan equivalents ended up in the courts of The Hague, uses thousands of armed men to maintain his economic and political power.

If you want to read up on more stuff like that, including both chechen and russian asshole moves:
human rights watch chechnya page

and most relevant to what i said is the history of chechnya(ie. this conflict has roots in which islam plays a minor role, and they've been p'd off with the russians for a LONG time):
global issues chechnya page


So what does all that mean... it calls into question your "if they weren't muslims, they wouldn't be blowing themselves up", which was exactly what i was getting at in my post. Given the history of the area, and the fact that yes, non-muslims do 'blow themselves up'(for an easy, non-academic answer go rent platoon) it sucks but yes:

It ain't suprising.

Don't get me wrong, if they are killed, fine.
But russia needs to clean up its act.

And don't think i'm anti-russian, they saved my dad's life in 1992 (burst esophagus). Not to mention that they sacrificed more in wwII fighting to keep the world free than the europeans, or the US did(then proceeded to build a prison for themselves).
And i'm not excusing the terrorist's actions: they're acting like full-on asswipes. All i'm saying is; this is what can happen when you repeatedly f people over.

So, yeah, to those who were wondering if 'what, are we supposed to be sympathising with the terrorists' : duh!, no. Your supposed to sit there with your mouth open in awe while watching people kill each other. IE: pricks are killing innocents on both sides, its not supposed to make sense, this isn't your regularly scheduled programming.

Hope it turns out all right.

[Spliffdaddy]

well damn.

I'm almost inclined to agree with that peacenik rhetoric.

quick. somebody smack that down.

it worries me.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
If you repeat something often enough people will start to believe you. It seems like that saying holds some truth, the constant attacks on me by some of the macnners seem to have had the wanted effect.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. What you've been saying lately in Israel threads is different from the position I had previously understood you to have.

realitybath: thanks for that info. It certainly is a different image of Chechnya than Taliesin and others have been painting.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by realitybath:
So, yeah, to those who were wondering if 'what, are we supposed to be sympathising with the terrorists' : duh!, no. Your supposed to sit there with your mouth open in awe while watching people kill each other. IE: pricks are killing innocents on both sides, its not supposed to make sense, this isn't your regularly scheduled programming.

Hope it turns out all right.

Woaw! Great post! Thank you for that!

There is more to the simple "terrorists=psychopath". We always forget about the previous history and how that serves as the major element in a conflict. That does not excuse the stupidity of the act of terrorism, but should help us understand how some stupider and destructive policies create more desperate people to act in an apparently irrational manner.

Things can be managed differently (and should), but human beings do not have the reputation of being rational (which works a lot when we are seating watching with an open mouth in awe), and that is what we should always be conscious about whenever we have to deal with a variety of individuals with a variety of interests.