[Thilo Ettelt]

Arni and the Socialists - (http://www.zeit.de/2004/37/schwarzenegger_bush)

by Florian Klenk for Zeit.de (weekly German newspaper) 02.09.2004, English Translation by Thilo Ettelt, without permission

Arnold Schwarzenegger tells George Bush, that he escaped from Austrian socialists. Weird.

There was a time when Arnold Schwarzenegger was a poor, ("steirisch"- English translation?) boy. He lifted weights and dreamt of becoming the strongest man in the world. He didn't just dream at night, it was a "daydream", as he says. 1968 the muscleman finally arrived in America. In Austria he is being admired for his following career. A soccer stadium in Graz is named after him.

But now some of his previous fellow countrymen are surprised about the "steirish" (?) oak. Because last Monday, on the Republican convention, the actor and from now on republican Governor of California a speech of praise about George Bush. That wouldn't be bad at all, but suddenly he explains to the taut delegates the true reason, which provoked him to leave Austria: the Socialists.

The Socialists? Well, at first there were the Soviets, who had freed the country from the Nazis with the other Allies and occupied it for 10 years (until 1955), sometimes terrorizing the population. The little Arnold was afraid of them: "I saw communists with my own eyes. I still remember the fears we suffered from when we entered the Soviet sector. Don't look into their eyes, they told us. It was a common belief that the Soviets would pull a man out of his car and carry him off as a working slave to the Soviet Union." (Double translated quote).

The Republicans applauded and Arnold confabulated further: "After the Russians withdrew I saw how Austria became a socialistic country. Don't misunderstand me. I love Austria, I love the Austrians." But due to the Socialists, who had control of the country now, he had to lop off.

Weird. When Arnold Schwarzenegger left Austria in the 60s, the second republic has not had an elected socialistic chancellor yet. Quite the contrary: Taut conservative governments were in power in Vienna. From 1945 to 1970 the christian-social national party reigned the country, with chancellor Leopold Figl, Julius Raab, Alfons Gorbach and Josef Klaus. Yes, the conservatives shared the power with social democrats through the proportional representation election system. With them they build up a social partnership, a form of alongside government. Arnold is right that, also authoritarian fug befouled the country, which thought of itself as a victim of the Nazis. But Austria was still not socialistic at that time. And the fellows of the communist party of Austria wasted away into insignificance.

The first socialpolitical break-up, the first decrease of authoritarian ideas in Austria took place in the 70s. The conservative, solitary government was dropped, children of workers got free schoolbooks and were allowed to attend a middle-class dominated university for the first time. A husband was after a reform in law, not the head of the family anymore and there was no dark arrest in prison anymore. It wasn't the conservatives which aired the country this way, it was Bruno Kreisky. A Socialist.

Maybe someone can relay this to Arnold Schwarzenegger, before he speaks to George Bush again. He allegedly has enough problems to understand the world.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Thilo Ettelt:
Yes, the conservatives shared the power with social democrats through the proportional representation election system. With them they build up a social partnership, a form of alongside government.

European social democracy of the type you describe above can be called socialistic, especially from the American perspective. He doesn't say specifically anything about the Socialist Party per se.

Socialistic = tending toward socialism.
Socialist Party = a socialist party.

[Thilo Ettelt]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
European social democracy of the type you describe above can be called socialistic, especially from the American perspective. He doesn't say specifically anything about the Socialist Party per se.

Socialistic = tending toward socialism.
Socialist Party = a socialist party.

This might be, you can discuss this for years. But there was no social democratic party in power at that time. There was a conservative party in power. So how did he flee from socialists? By the way when you call a social democratic party socialistic, then you must call a welfare state socialistic too. The USA is being called that way too, but they do not reach the level of welfare provided in most countries of the European Union. So, I am not sure whether it is appropriate to call it one. Giving this it remains unclear why it is so important to flee from Austria (as an example).


- Thilo

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Thilo Ettelt:
By the way when you call a social democratic party socialistic, then you must call a welfare state socialistic too.

Well of course it is! There is no doubt that Europe has a political consensus that is more inclined to be socialistic than the US. Certainly more so that the policies advocated by Republicans in 1968 -- which is what he was talking about.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
European social democracy of the type you describe above can be called socialistic, especially from the American perspective. He doesn't say specifically anything about the Socialist Party per se.

Socialistic = tending toward socialism.
Socialist Party = a socialist party.

Exactly.

[Sven G]

"Socialism", as always, is first of all a matter of what you really mean of it: social democracy is certainly one of the "lesser evils", IMHO, but neither is it the non plus ultra of human collaboration...

[PacHead]

Socialists suck. I've been to Europe numerous times, and those who call themselves "socialists" are really some sort of commie "lite" people.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Socialists suck. I've been to Europe numerous times, and those who call themselves "socialists" are really some sort of commie "lite" people.

Define correctly what socialists and communists are and believe in. Bet you 'No posting on MacNN forums for six months' you'll get it wrong.

[voodoo]

Arnie was asskissing the GOP. Big deal. He's good at it. Neither party in the US is socialistic anyway.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Arnie was asskissing the GOP. Big deal. He's good at it.

I guess Kerry is just asskissing the Democraskies then.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I guess Kerry is just asskissing the Democraskies then.

Easy on the kneejerking boy.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Easy on the kneejerking boy.

I suggest you go look what "knee-jerk" means in said context.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I suggest you go look what "knee-jerk" means in said context.

Why? Do you want me to explain it to you?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Why? Do you want me to explain it to you?

No, you just used it poorly. Which made me think you don't know what it means.

My post wasn't a knee-jerk Einstein.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:


No, you just used it poorly. Which made me think you don't know what it means.

My post wasn't a knee-jerk Einstein.

Yes it was Bohr.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Yes it was Bohr.

Because voodoo says it was!



Tell me voodoo. How was it a knee-jerk? I am curious.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Because voodoo says it was!



Tell me voodoo. How was it a knee-jerk? I am curious.

The first thing you posted was that Kerry was doing the same.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Sometimes, your maturity reminds me that of a little school boy.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
The first thing you posted was that Kerry was doing the same.

I didn't say he was doing the same. You need to re-read what I said.

"I GUESS that means"

You believe what you said to be factual. Under such thinking, Kerry would have to be doing the same thing.

That was no knee-jerk. I was pointing out that your assertion was silly.

I assure you I don't think Kerry is just kissing their ass.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I didn't say he was doing the same. You need to re-read what I said.

"I GUESS that means"

You believe what you said to be factual. Under such thinking, Kerry would have to be doing the same thing.

That was no knee-jerk. I was pointing out that your assertion was silly.

It was such an obvious kneejerk it wasn't even funny. That you keep trying to refuse it *is* funny though

Who are you trying to fool here anyway?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Sometimes, your maturity reminds me that of a little school boy.

This post is just classic.

anagaq. Here is a pointer.

If you think someone is acting immature, don't in the middle of a conversation point such a thing out while calling them names.

It brings up the whole pot, kettle thing. And makes people laugh at you.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
It was such an obvious kneejerk it wasn't even funny. That you keep trying to refuse it *is* funny though

Who are you trying to fool here anyway?

That is what I thought.

voodoo 0
Zimphire 1

Try again puffy boy.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I rest my case.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This post is just classic.

anagaq. Here is a pointer.

If you think someone is acting immature, don't in the middle of a conversation point such a thing out while calling them names.

It brings up the whole pot, kettle thing. And makes people laugh at you.

He wasn't name calling. That was a factual observation. You are acting like a five year old at school. I'm just replying because I'm kind amused over your antics. Also fun seeing what will be the next reply. Heh.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
I rest my case.

You did nothing but make fun of yourself without realizing it anagaq.
Good job.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
He wasn't name calling. That was a factual observation. You are acting like a five year old at school. I'm just replying because I'm kind amused over your antics. Also fun seeing what will be the next reply. Heh.

This is your typical "I am so much cooler than you. I am not really trying to save face, but just sitting here wasting time just watching you" backpeddle.

Learn what a knee-jerk is son. Before you embarrass yourself even further.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You did nothing but make fun of yourself without realizing it anagaq.
Good job.

Then why am I laughing so hard?

The more you post, the deeper you get and you can't see it?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That is what I thought.

voodoo 0
Zimphire 1

Try again puffy boy.

Qué?

I'm amused by your reply, but tell me what is a 'puffy boy' in your mind?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This is your typical "I am so much cooler than you. I am not really trying to save face, but just sitting here wasting time just watching you" backpeddle.

Learn what a knee-jerk is son. Before you embarrass yourself even further.

Well boy, you don't want to admit what is obvious to everyone. That is ok because it is obvious to everyone.

First you knee-jerk in this thread and now you project. I'm not saying I'm cooler than you. I spend far too much time at an internet forum posting replies to people like you to consider myself cool.

I really wonder: who are you kidding here?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Then why am I laughing so hard?

The more you post, the deeper you get and you can't see it?

It is like pushing a button and getting the desired effect every time.

I think he's beginning to figure it out now though. If not here is a major hint!

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well boy, you don't want to admit what is obvious to everyone. That is ok because it is obvious to everyone.

First you knee-jerk in this thread and now you project. I'm not saying I'm cooler than you. I spend far too much time at an internet forum posting replies to people like you to consider myself cool.

I really wonder: who are you kidding here?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well boy, you don't want to admit what is obvious to everyone.

Ah there voodoo goes answering for "everyone" to make it look like he is in the right.

Stop being so dishonest.

So far only you and your wonder twin ana have been fanboying.

First you knee-jerk in this thread and now you project. I'm not saying I'm cooler than you. I spend far too much time at an internet forum posting replies to people like you to consider myself cool.

I really wonder: who are you kidding here?

LAWL! I am not trying to kid anyone. I just busted you for not only making an asinine comment, but for you horrible usage of the word "knee-jerk"

Go back, turn around. And try again.

This time try to be a bit more honest.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Then why am I laughing so hard?

The more you post, the deeper you get and you can't see it?

No, I am not saying I am not acting childish anag. I am playing on voodoo level here.

I was laughing at YOU telling me I was acting childish when you were doing the SAME THING.

And you STILL don't realize it.

That's even FUNNIER.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, I am not saying I am not acting childish anag. I am playing on voodoo level here.

I was laughing at YOU telling me I was acting childish when you were doing the SAME THING.

And you STILL don't realize it.

That's even FUNNIER.

[chris v]

Sorry for the de-rail, but this thread is now about Arni and Austrian history:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Was he misguided by his advisors here, or WHAT?

[itai195]

Originally posted by chris v:
Sorry for the de-rail, but this thread is now about Arni and Austrian history:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Was he misguided by his advisors here, or WHAT?

I've heard him tell this story since before he was even governor. I don't know if he had advisors back then

I think he just needed a good story for why he's a Republican and not a Democrat, given that his policy goals really could fit into either party.

[Thilo Ettelt]

Originally posted by itai195:
I've heard him tell this story since before he was even governor. I don't know if he had advisors back then

I think he just needed a good story for why he's a Republican and not a Democrat, given that his policy goals really could fit into either party.

Damn, I try to translate it the best way I can and then there's an article on CNN already oh well...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I really wonder: who are you kidding here?

whom.


Oh, and since people insist on quoting certain members, bypassing the Ignore filter, let me just say one thing:

If you have to award points to yourself, you've already lost.

-s*

[Zimphire]

And what is even better is making up points for not only yourself. but other people.

Using extreme sentences liek "Everyone sees" or "No one believes"

[Atomic Rooster]

Arnie IS a politician. He can't seem to get history or the truth right.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...old040903.html

Arnie's grasp of Austrian history questioned
Last Updated Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:07:11 EDT

VIENNA - While he has been a success as a bodybuilder, action star and politician, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a failure as a historian.

That's according to some people in Austria, his former homeland, who are calling into question the picture of his boyhood that Schwarzenegger painted when he addressed the Republican National Convention in New York.


Schwarzenegger, star of such films as Conan The Barbarian and The Terminator, told delegates on Tuesday that he recalled seeing Soviet tanks and that the country was dominated by socialists.


"I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes," Schwarzenegger said in a speech that was lauded by many observers as the highlight of the gathering.


But those who have studied the history of Austria say that would have been impossible.


Schwarzenegger was raised in the province of Styria. It was occupied after the Second World War by allied troops, including U.S., British and Soviet forces, before he was born in 1947. The Soviets withdrew from the region in 1945, one historian says.


"It's a fact – as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the Associated Press reports Stefan Karner telling the Vienna newspaper Kurier.


"The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," added Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic party.


Schwarzenegger also said that "As a kid, I saw the socialist country that Austria became after" the country regained its independence in 1955.


But according to Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar, none of the country's chancellors were socialists between the years of 1945 and 1970.


"He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said, noting that during the period in question the country was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's party and the Social Democratic party.


In Polaschek's view, the former actor was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign."

[SimeyTheLimey]

This blog, which I surfed to from Instapundit has a pretty good rebuttal to both points raised. It may be only a blog, but the argument is good. It points out (as I did) that Austria's governments were socialistic in comparison to the US notwithstanding the fact that they may have been to Austria's right. Austria's right is still far to our left. And apparently, the Conservative/Socialist coalition went to the left in 1965.

Point one to Arnie.

Point two, it also points out that Arnie specifically talked about seeing Soviet tanks when he crossed into the Soviet zone. His critics pointing out that there weren't Soviet tanks in his home town simply didn't listen to what he said. Pretty lame.

In other words, the critics could have saved themselves a little embarrassment if they weren't trying so hard to play "gotcha."

[Thilo Ettelt]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
This blog, which I surfed to from Instapundit has a pretty good rebuttal to both points raised. It may be only a blog, but the argument is good. It points out (as I did) that Austria's governments were socialistic in comparison to the US notwithstanding the fact that they may have been to Austria's right. Austria's right is still far to our left. And apparently, the Conservative/Socialist coalition went to the left in 1965.

Point one to Arnie.

ALthough the points that he makes might be valid. It's still pretty idiotic to flee from a country that obviously offers better health care, social security, living conditions, etc.- but still these better conditions were not established by the conservative people's party. It was by the social-democratic people's party. Which could flee from, as he had already gone to the USA. So either he did not flee at all but just saw an opportunity or he must have fleed from the conservative party. So do you think the Austrians should shut up, or Arnie for politician doubletalk... or rather null talk...? (PS: rhetorical question, I don't need your reply. I would knew it anyway. Just felt I had to add this.)


- Thilo

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Thilo Ettelt:
ALthough the points that he makes might be valid. It's still pretty idiotic to flee from a country that obviously offers better health care, social security, living conditions, etc.-

Yes, obviously Arnold Schwarzenegger made a stupid decision. He would have been much better off living off of Austria's welfare state. Since moving to the US his life has been nothing but grinding poverty and a pitiful misery.