[Spoogepieces]

About time:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/03/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

Medicare premiums to jump 17%

Largest increase ever attributed to new prescription drug plan and expanded preventative services.

[itai195]

Don't look now, but I have a hunch this might hurt your candidate in one particular, hurricane-battered state.

[Spoogepieces]

About time someone stood up against the growing menace of elderly people in this country ripping the younger generations off.

SS, Medicare, etc. are the biggest scam ever perpetrated in history by one class upon another.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
About time someone stood up against the growing menace of elderly people in this country ripping the younger generations off.

SS, Medicare, etc. are the biggest scam ever perpetrated in history by one class upon another.

It is in the nation's interest to not have 50 million hungry, homeless old folks all over the place.

[itai195]

Run with it, be my guest

But personally, I'll side with spacefreak there.

[Spliffdaddy]

aw hell. I'll jump in.


The old folks are the wealthiest segment of our society.

It'll do 'em some good to pay for more of the services they currently consume.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
It is in the nation's interest to not have 50 million hungry, homeless old folks all over the place.

It is in the nation's best interest not to have 100 million workers around angry and upset that their paychecks are going towards supporting other people.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
It is in the nation's best interest not to have 100 million workers around angry and upset that their paychecks are going towards supporting other people.

I understand the frustration, and the system's got to change, but, realistically, we can't just pull the plug on SocSec and Medicare. It's got to be a progressive reform.

Instead of yammering about how it's not your fault and how it's not fair, get into the reform debate. Immediately cutting off these benefits to retirees and the elderly will result in a national disaster.

[Spoogepieces]

We could start by cutting those off who don't need it. But is that fair? If one pays into the scheme then one ought to get back at least what he or she paid into it.

I don't see any way to fix it without someone getting hurt in the process. It was a flawed scheme to begin with and inherently in the end people will get hurt.

So, who do we hurt? Those who created the scheme? Or those who were forced to pay into something that existed for longer than they have been alive?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
So, who do we hurt? Those who created the scheme? Or those who were forced to pay into something that existed for longer than they have been alive?

THat's the beauty of progressive reform. The old way can be phased out over time as a more effective, efficient way is phased in.


Check out those reform models I posted in the SocSec thread. I know you just want the plugs pulled on the programs, but that's just not going to happen.

[Spoogepieces]

The problem is that with large special interest groups such as the AARP around we need something like the AAWP to counteract their political muscle.

Politicians simply fear upsetting the elderly too much to really have the guts to fix the problem.

[climber]

Although I know it will never happen, pulling the plug on generation of people that created the damn thing in the first place, has a definite appeal.

[Spliffdaddy]

word.

[Spoogepieces]

A generational struggle of epic proportions will be upon us within 20-30 years. At least I won't be expecting the younger generations to support me and take care of me while I sip on bourbon and pollute the skies with my $200,000 RV.

[greenamp]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
A generational struggle of epic proportions will be upon us within 20-30 years. At least I won't be expecting the younger generations to support me and take care of me while I sip on bourbon and pollute the skies with my $200,000 RV.

I love all these SS debates, like SS is the difference between life and death for seniors. Any of you seen the actual $$$ seniors get from SS? It's barely anything. I'm not saying it doesn't help, 'cause Im sure it helps a lot, but it certainly isn't the life or death nest egg some people make it out to be.

Helping those who can't help themselves is worthwhile and honorable thing to do, and is the epitome of human compassion. That being said, what we need is SS reform. There are better ways to manage it than the way it is currently being managed. Who could disagree with me on this point?

Take off your partisan hats for a minute with me, and lets talk SS reform. The only plan for reform I've heard in my entire life has been from Bush jr, who in his speech the other night proposed his plan to leave SS intact for those who currently and will soon need it, but allow for younger workers to set aside a tax free percentage of their ss payments for deposit in a private fund. That is the best and most progressive idea I've heard from a politician in very long time. I would say the same no matter who proposed the idea.

Anyone who disagrees that we desperatly need SS reform needs to wake up and smell the geritol.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by greenamp:
I love all these SS debates, like SS is the difference between life and death for seniors. Any of you seen the actual $$$ seniors get from SS? It's barely anything.

Really, you gotta be shitting me. My grandmother gets almost $4000 a month between hers and my (deceased) grandfather's benefits. If I could retire today, I would get about $1500 a month in benefits. That's not hard to live on.

Helping those who can't help themselves is worthwhile and honorable thing to do, and is the epitome of human compassion.

It's the epitome of human compassion to do that vonluntarily and not at the risk of going to jail. It's not compassionate when it's forced upon you and it's forcibly taken from your paycheck every week, two weeks, or month.

[greenamp]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Really, you gotta be shitting me. My grandmother gets almost $4000 a month between hers and my (deceased) grandfather's benefits. If I could retire today, I would get about $1500 a month in benefits. That's not hard to live on.

hmm, if I;m figuring it correct, your grandparents must have been grossing almost 200k a yr at the time they retired.

Am I figuring this right?

[Spoogepieces]

Yep, my grandfather retired after working with the same company for all his life after returning from serving in WWII. He wasn't a laborer but rather head of PR for a very large company. They lived a very comfortable life and are an example of someone who is collecting from SS that doesn't need to.

What gets me in the end is how we're all being tricked by calling SS and Medicare something different. If instead we didn't have these separate categories on our paychecks and were to collectively pay one tax then I think people would be more outraged at how much the government really takes each week or month.

[ringo]

Yep, because all seniors are rich and don't need benefits, right?

wrong

It's true that the poverty levels for seniors dropped from 1989 to 1999, but you're still looking at 8.5% of those 65 and older living in poverty, and 11.5% of those 75 or older living in poverty.

[spacefreak]

Those who can't see the disasterous effect on our nation that immediately pulling the plug on SocSec and Medicare would have are ignorant.

[dcmacdaddy]

Yes it need's to be reformed. Tossing out the whole system won't do. For me, the single
biggest change they could make is to do means-testing on the recipients. Sure, some
people who did very well in life might not get back all, or any, of what they put into the
system but then they are testament to the American Dream and shouldn't be complaining
about the money if they don't need it.

I would suggest a combination of raised contributions, along with a delay in the age of
retirement, coupled with means testing could do a lot right now to mend the system.

Notice I didn't say fix. The social security system IS broken and needs to be replaced.
Are there any politicians out there willing to do that? Absolutely not. And I don't see how
any government-run system will work unless they nationalize healthcare--to stabilize
costs--and implement a single-payer system. But *that* is not going to happen. Because
the trade-offs are too onerous on the people.

I've got 33 more years to contribute to the system--at the current retirement age--and if
it is still around when I retire I would be mightily surprised.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
I would suggest a combination of raised contributions, along with a delay in the age of retirement, coupled with means testing could do a lot right now to mend the system.

Notice I didn't say fix. The social security system IS broken and needs to be replaced. Are there any politicians out there willing to do that? Absolutely not.

Check out the reform models I posted in this thread. I think models 2 and 3 look intriguing, and are well worth further examination. We can propose changes off the top of our heads all day long. These reforms were put together by some of the brightest minds on the subject - experts in numerous fields.

So many people bich about the need to reform, but they don't bother to take a few minutes to examine the reform models that are already out there.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by ringo:
Yep, because all seniors are rich and don't need benefits, right?

Yep, that's EXACTLY what I said, wasn't it?

It's true that the poverty levels for seniors dropped from 1989 to 1999, but you're still looking at 8.5% of those 65 and older living in poverty, and 11.5% of those 75 or older living in poverty.

Don't look at percentages, look at the actual numbers.
3.2 million seniors out of 33 million. Big deal. That's not that many. Lower poverty rates than the nation as a whole. So, while the rest of us live in poverty, we're contributing to a system that is broken and only benefits very few people.

The more I think about this the more the plug needs to be pulled. Reform isn't the answer.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
...biggest change they could make is to do means-testing on the recipients. Sure, some
people who did very well in life might not get back all, or any, of what they put into the
system but then they are testament to the American Dream and shouldn't be complaining
about the money if they don't need it.

That amounts to theft.

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
About time someone stood up against the growing menace of elderly people in this country ripping the younger generations off.

SS, Medicare, etc. are the biggest scam ever perpetrated in history by one class upon another.

Yes, take all the folks who helped to defeat Hitler and throw them out in the streets

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
Yes, take all the folks who helped to defeat Hitler and throw them out in the streets

That's exactly what I said

Whatever happened to families taking care of their own instead of burdening others to do it for them?

[chris v]

What about the ones who don't have families?

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they already paid their way by paying in to Social Security during their working years.

Do you plan to at least refund them the principal when you strip them of their benefits? And what about interest? That money was earning interest in a Soc. Sec. account somewhere.

Are you just going to rob them?

[Spliffdaddy]

Are they just going to rob us?

There are no guarantees in this life. If you trust the guiding hand of government to tend to your needs - you're screwed, regardless.

The elderly are in no worse financial shape than the rest of the citizens. They can sacrifice, too.

It's going to be quite impossible to stop the runaway train of Social Security. The payroll deductions will keep getting bigger - while there is less income to save for your 'real' retirement. Soon, *most* people will depend entirely on Social Security for their retirement income. THEN it'll be too late to kill Social Security.

I don't have too many more years before I'll be able to collect from SS. So I'm probably gonna be among the last folks to get anything from it.

You can wait and see what happens to Social Security - but, even now, it's pretty obvious what will happen.

Your future is in your own hands. Keep it there, is my advice.

[chris v]

So, to summarize...

Beat up the elderly, and take their money, because we are young and strong, and because we can.

You're in such a giving mood today, Spliff.

[Luca Rescigno]

My grandparents are 83 and 84 years old. My 84-year-old grandmother had a major medical problem last year due to a combination of Parkinson's and Lewy-Body disease. At times she was hallucinating; she would talk to teacups, not recognize my grandfather, and so on. She was put on medication that has dealt with the problem fairly well. She's basically her old self again, just... "simpler" would be the right word I guess.

Anyway, in the past she had problems where when she felt better, she'd just stop taking her medications. This of course led to more problems. We thought she was over it - my grandfather has been taking care of her very well since then - but recently he suggested that he might start cutting the pills in half because she was doing pretty well. In reality, it's because they just can't really afford the drugs. They can get by, yes, but they've had problems. Compounding this problem are the new Medicare benefit cards. They're supposed to help old people, but in fact they have done more harm than good in my grandparents' case. They used to get a special deal from the drug company through their health provider, but now that the new cards are here the deal was discontinued in favor of the cards. The cards don't provide nearly as much of a discount as before, so it's really putting the pinch on them.

I feel terrible for what is being done to them. My grandfather served in the South Pacific in WWII. He was even assaulted by his own comrades for being Jewish. Now this country that he protected is turning his back on him, and you, Stooge, have the nerve to say we should give him even less assistance? He's too old to work, and at his age, medical problems are expensive. He drives a 1992 Saturn and eats about the cheapest food you can possibly get. I'd like to see this imaginary world in which everyone over 65 owns a motorhome and hangs out at resorts eating expensive gourmet food all the time.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by chris v:
What about the ones who don't have families?

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they already paid their way by paying in to Social Security during their working years.

Do you plan to at least refund them the principal when you strip them of their benefits? And what about interest? That money was earning interest in a Soc. Sec. account somewhere.

Are you just going to rob them?

I'm pretty sure somewhere in this mess I stated that everyone who paid into the scheme should get back their principal plus interest. But not a dime more.

And from that point on everyone should be RESPONSIBLE for his or her retirement and his or her parents. We don't have a Baby Security Trust Fund for infants - age 18 because we expect the parents to raise and take care of their children.

Why is it too much to expect families to take care of their parents instead of burdening me with the cost of it?

Social Security should be stopped, everyone should get off the ride, and a full refund of all money paid for the ride should be given. It will be a lesser burden to do this now then to continue babbling and waffling about "reform" when it's going to be impossible to do any sort of meaningful reform as long as politician's pockets are lined by the AARP.

Its' time we have an Association of Younger Americans to fight the scourge of the AARP and what it represents.

[CreepingDeth]

So can someone explain why the government is the first place to solve every problem, such as this? Come on, the government isn't the caretaker of every person. It's not the nanny. Besides, how much would this cost anyway? Billions…trillions? [pink to mouth]

[ringo]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Don't look at percentages, look at the actual numbers.
3.2 million seniors out of 33 million. Big deal. That's not that many.

You honestly think that's it's OK to throw 3.2 million seniors out on the street? Good luck. The political backlash would be huge. Any politician dumb enough to try this would lose any kind of national support base faster than you could say "Jim McGreevey".

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by ringo:
You honestly think that's it's OK to throw 3.2 million seniors out on the street? Good luck. The political backlash would be huge. Any politician dumb enough to try this would lose any kind of national support base faster than you could say "Jim McGreevey".

What about the other 290 million of us who aren't seniors?

I think it's time to start up an organization that will crush the AARP. I'm tired of my taxes and payroll deductions going up to provide them benefits.

Anyone with me? Anyone want to take your freaking country back from the fossils?