[RonnieoftheRose]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3629828.stm

Many working families still feel no benefit from the US economic recovery, the Economic Policy Institute says.

While business is improving, average wages have fallen, job satisfaction has declined and the rich-poor gap widened, says a report by the US think tank.

And in terms of recouping jobs since the start of the recession, the US is in a worse position "than any business cycle since the 1930s", it added.

The study is set to harden criticism of President Bush ahead of the elections.

Critics have rounded on Mr Bush for presiding over large-scale job losses since taking office in 2000.

'Jobs growth stalled'

But the EPI State Of Working America 2004/05 report says that after almost three years of recovery, the labour market is still "too weak".

"Unemployment is essentially unchanged, job growth is stalled and real wages have started to fall behind inflation," it added.

But the EPI State Of Working America 2004/05 report says that after almost three years of recovery, the labour market is still "too weak".

"Unemployment is essentially unchanged, job growth is stalled and real wages have started to fall behind inflation," it added.

Moreover, unemployment has actually risen 1.3 percentage points since the start of the recession in 2001, when it stood at 4.3%

But Beth Ann Bovino, economist at Standard & Poor, said US job figures released on Friday showed employment was improving.

The jobless recovery did see a pick-up. But what was good was that the figures for June and July were revised up sharply, and that's a good sign. There have been positive movements in job growth," she said.

The group, a non-profit and non-partisan think tank, also said that while many would expect the improving economy to boost wages and job satisfaction, this was not happening.

In fact, it found wages were "eroding". Blue collar manufacturing and non-supervisory service workers, who account for 80% of US wages, have seen their average real hourly wage fall 1.2% over the past year.

Fuel 'tax'

However, one expert argued that circumstances outside the US's control may be behind the hardships faced by weaker families.

Gary Schlossberg senior economist at Wells Capital said the huge rise in oil prices had "hit lower-income groups harder", as up to 20% of their budgets are eaten up in fuel costs.

"Also if you look at home ownership rates, they have gone up, so lower-income groups have benefited from the recovery - although upper-income levels have benefited the most," he added.

The Institute also highlighted huge differences between expanding and contracting industries.

Annual wages for staff in contracting industries were an average of $51,270 a year, while those in expanding were paid just $30,368 - a difference of 40.8%.

The report also echoes recent findings by the Census Bureau that showed the gap between the rich and the poor is widening in America.

'At a crossroads'

Figures from the bureau show that the ranks of the poor grew by 1.3 million people to 35.9 million.

"With the return of higher unemployment and weaker labour demand, the poverty rate has risen again and real incomes have fallen most quickly for the least well off," the EPI report said.

One of the report's authors, EPI senior economist Jared Bernstein, said that the report provided "a stark reminded of what's at stake when the job market remains as weak as it has been over the past few years".

He added that the US economy was now at a "crossroads", with the "preferable" path leading to a broad-based recovery and tight labour market.

On the other hand, all current trends pointed to an economy "like the 1980s", with lower income groups squeezed, sharp increases in inequality, growing budget deficits and high unemployment.

[Spoogepieces]

Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

Maury

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

Do you really think they had a choice? Do you really think the boss went up to them one at a time and asked about taking a huge pay cut? The management agreed to a price and now they don't want to pay. So the plan for outsourcing goes into effect. Without the workers knowledge. You don't want to upset the wage-slaves. And then you drop the bomb. Outsourcing is the **** you keep low-key until your current workers are no longer needed and can't hurt you.

And WTF is up with the username? dork

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by chalk_outline:
Do you really think they had a choice?

Sure, don't join the union that's going to price you out of the market. Unions don't care, they just want to collect dues.

Do you really think the boss went up to them one at a time and asked about taking a huge pay cut?

It's not the boss's perogative to ask people what they want to earn.

The management agreed to a price and now they don't want to pay.

Can you blame them for looking for cheaper sources of labor? What idiot would pay high labor costs when cheaper labor is available elsewhere?

And WTF is up with the username? dork

And I suppose your name really is chalk_outline?

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Sure, don't join the union that's going to price you out of the market. Unions don't care, they just want to collect dues.



It's not the boss's perogative to ask people what they want to earn.



Can you blame them for looking for cheaper sources of labor? What idiot would pay high labor costs when cheaper labor is available elsewhere?



And I suppose your name really is chalk_outline?

1. what union? I don't think most of this work is union. Coding and Accounting seem to be big targets.
2. OK the HR person?
3. I think thats the major difference between me and you. I put people before profits. On this we will always disagree.

4. No it's not but I hope my death is so fantastic I get one. I want to go out with a bang. And hopefully my wife pulls the trigger.

But the Chalk_outline thing is from a Mars Volta song. Ask MindFad..


dork

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by chalk_outline:
I put people before profits. On this we will always disagree.

If there are no profits then how is a company supposed to keep people working?

If you want to be charitible and put people ahead of profits nothing is stopping you from starting a business and paying everyone $1,000,000 per year. That's the beauty of capitalism. Of course, if you can't compete because you overpay your workers then you won't be in business very long and I suppose at that point you'll expect thos who are successful to pay higher taxes to cover your welfare, unemployment, and Social Security benefits.

[spacefreak]

Workers need to help themselves. While a growing economy can create opportunities, it is up to workers themselves to identify and seize such opportunities.

One such opportunity would be for these workers to refinance their homes to take advantage of these bargain-basement rates. That would save them thousands a year. Another opportunity would be for these workers to take out a home equity loan and take some college and/or vocational classes to enhance their skill set.

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
If there are no profits then how is a company supposed to keep people working?

If you want to be charitible and put people ahead of profits nothing is stopping you from starting a business and paying everyone $1,000,000 per year. That's the beauty of capitalism. Of course, if you can't compete because you overpay your workers then you won't be in business very long and I suppose at that point you'll expect thos who are successful to pay higher taxes to cover your welfare, unemployment, and Social Security benefits.

WTF? I'm fine with profits. It is not binary. A middle can easily be found. Thats what I think is needed. Retained earnings are needed. I know this. Insane corporate greed will not help the population and in the end won't help the company. This is a long-run short-run type of thing.


dork

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Workers need to help themselves. While a growing economy can create opportunities, it is up to workers themselves to identify and seize such opportunities.

One such opportunity would be for these workers to refinance their homes to take advantage of these bargain-basement rates. That would save them thousands a year. Another opportunity would be for these workers to take out a home equity loan and take some college and/or vocational classes to enhance their skill set.

Great: Homeowners are good now. So what about the renters?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

Why do you always pick on the workers? Maybe we ought to look at the fact that CEO pay has jumped from 45 times that of the average worker, to almost 300 times in twenty years! We have the widest gap of worker/CEO pay of any country in the world, yet it's always so easy to ignore that (or maybe not even be aware of it, which wouldn't surprise me), and pick on the working class, who make people rich, often working in dangerous conditions.

When the CEO then does outsource positions overseas, he gets an additional bonus for saving the company money!

This isn't capitalism; it's unregulated greed!

[OldManMac]

BTW, here's who's getting the jobs Bush "created."

------------------


Who's Getting the New Jobs?

By BOB HERBERT

A startling new study shows that all of the growth in the employed population in
the United States over the past few years can be attributed to recently arrived
immigrants.
The study found that from the beginning of 2001 through the first four months of
2004, the number of new immigrants who found work in the U.S. was 2.06 million,
while the number of native-born and longer-term immigrant workers declined by
more than 1.3 million.
The study, from the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in
Boston, is further confirmation that despite the recovery from the recession of
2001, American families are still struggling with serious issues of joblessness and
underemployment.
The study does not mean that native-born workers and long-term immigrants are
not finding jobs. The American workplace is a vast, dynamic, highly competitive
arena, with endless ebbs and flows of employment. But as the study tallied the
gains and losses since the end of 2000, it found that new immigrants acquired as
many jobs as the other two groups lost, and then some.
Andrew Sum, the director of the center and lead author of the study, said he hoped
his findings would spark a long-needed analysis of employment and immigration
policies in the U.S. But he warned against using the statistics for immigrantbashing.
''We need a serious, honest debate about where we are today with regard to labor
markets,'' said Professor Sum, whose work has frequently cited the important
contributions immigrants have made. The starkness of the study's findings, he said,
is an indication that right now ''there is something wrong.''
The study found that the new immigrants entering the labor force were mostly male
and ''quite young,'' with more than one-fourth under the age of 25, and 70 percent
under 35.
''Hispanics formed the dominant group of new immigrants,'' the study said, ''with
migrants from Mexico and Central America playing key roles. Slightly under 56
percent of the new immigrant workers were Hispanic, nearly another one-fifth were
Asian, 18 percent were white, not-Hispanic, and 5 percent were black.''
Those most affected by the influx of new immigrant workers are young, less welleducated
American workers and so-called established immigrants, those who have
been in the U.S. for a number of years.
Simply stated, there are not enough jobs being created to accommodate the wide
variety of demographic groups in need of work. With that being the case, and with
some employers actively recruiting new immigrants, the inevitable result has been
the displacement of previously employed workers, especially in the less skilled and
lower-income categories.
College-educated middle-class workers appear to be holding their own in the
current employment environment, although significant numbers are
underemployed. The situation is much bleaker for high school graduates and
dropouts, especially for men, both black and white, and teenagers.
The new immigrants are not spread evenly across the U.S. The study identified 16
states that each had 50,000 or more new immigrants in the civilian labor force,
ranging from slightly fewer than 55,000 in Colorado and Pennsylvania to 276,000
in Texas, and a high of 555,000 in California.
Professor Sum said he used data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics household
survey, as opposed to its payroll survey (which is preferred by many economists),
because it includes a number of categories of employment -- contract workers,
farm labor and others -- that attract substantial immigrant labor but are not
monitored by the payroll survey.
But even in the traditional area of manufacturing, for example, the employment of
new immigrants has been significant. Referring to the period from 2000 to the fall
of 2003, the study said, ''Nearly 320,000 new immigrants obtained employment in
the nation's manufacturing industries at a time when total wage and salary
employment in these industries declined by more than 2.7 million positions.''
If we are going to continue to encourage immigration, it's essential that we move
once again toward full employment. Let the discussions begin now on how to get
there. In the absence of full employment, an ugly face-off between American
workers and newly arriving immigrants will be inevitable. That is not something we
want or need to see.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by KarlG:


This isn't capitalism; it's unregulated greed!

The definition of capitalism is to capitalize on people and hoard money to one central place, namely yourself - hence 'capital', a central not distributed area. Morals aren't attached to it. The best and funniest thing is that the word is etmyologically related to such words as 'caput' meaning death by head injury!

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by KarlG:

This isn't capitalism; it's unregulated greed!

Give it a rest. Companies have to make profits to stay in business. I know it's tough concept for libs to get this. I'll try to help:

If you want a $39 DVD player then you cannot expect it to be made in America. If you want free tech support then you cannot expect to speak to an American. If you want to drive a $12,000 vehicle then you cannot expect it to be American made. If you want to take a Carribean cruise for $399 then you cannot expect to have American workers.

I don't know if I need to go further but the bottom line is that here in America we're spoiled by our standard of living. We want everything without having to pay much for it.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Why do you always pick on the workers?

They are the ones pricing themselves out of the market. It's much easier to get another worker than find a suitable CEO.

Maybe we ought to look at the fact that CEO pay has jumped from 45 times that of the average worker, to almost 300 times in twenty years!

Yawn.

We have the widest gap of worker/CEO pay of any country in the world, yet it's always so easy to ignore that (or maybe not even be aware of it, which wouldn't surprise me), and pick on the working class, who make people rich, often working in dangerous conditions.

Double yawn.

When the CEO then does outsource positions overseas, he gets an additional bonus for saving the company money!

As it should be when the CEO saves money.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by chalk_outline:
Great: Homeowners are good now. So what about the renters?

Renters have it even better. There's no long term risk to renting a properly.

Maybe if Johnny America didn't live in a $300,000 house on a $50,000 salary and drive two SUVs and want to go skiing every winter the decline in wages or the job market wouldn't push him into obsolescence as others are found willing to do the same job for cheaper.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:


Yawn.

Yawns are not answers. They imply you're just a ****ing greedy pig yourself who WISHES he could be a CEO himself.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:


Maybe if CEOs didn't live in multiple $3,000,000 homes on a $50,000,000 salary plus bonus and drive three SUVs and want to go skiing every winter ...

Fixed.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
Yawns are not answers. They imply you're just a ****ing greedy pig yourself who WISHES he could be a CEO himself.

I am a CEO. It's called a SMALL BUSINESS.

My only responsibility in life is to myself and my family. If wages are forcing me to be uncompetative then it's time to find a cheaper source of wages. Brazil, India, Thailand, and The Phillipines look very good right now.

I love how lefty losers as yourself always equate success to greed. It's not my fault I had an idea and did something with it. It's not my fault American workers are too greedy to accept just a little bit less so that they can be employed. It's far easier to communicate ideas to people who are local but when it's costing tens of thousands of dollars extra per month or year it's cheaper for me to fly overseas every month than to hire a bunch of people who might have poor work habits, might not show up due to laziness, etc. then I will hire foreigners and will be happy about it. My production is up and we can hire more peolpe for less compared to the local workforce. America's work ethics stink and can't compare nor compete with foreigners.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
I am a CEO. It's called a SMALL BUSINESS.

I hope your employees find out how much time you spend on here instead of 'running the company' if that's what you want to call it.

[OldManMac]

About what I expected in a reply. It's okay for workers to be a little less greedy, but the CEO doesn't have to sacrifice anything; he just take the difference and puts it in his pocket and that's okay.

Odd, how your own inflated wages don't figure into your business decisions, isn't it?

Your disdain for the American worker is pathetic. Why don't you move overseas?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
Give it a rest. Companies have to make profits to stay in business. I know it's tough concept for libs to get this. I'll try to help:

If you want a $39 DVD player then you cannot expect it to be made in America. If you want free tech support then you cannot expect to speak to an American. If you want to drive a $12,000 vehicle then you cannot expect it to be American made. If you want to take a Carribean cruise for $399 then you cannot expect to have American workers.

I don't know if I need to go further but the bottom line is that here in America we're spoiled by our standard of living. We want everything without having to pay much for it.

Did you even read my reply? I doubt it, because you just might gotten the concept that the overpaid CEO's salary, relative to the workers' wages, figures into the price of your $39 DVD player. You're obviously just another apologist for piggish, overpaid executives.

You just might want to sit back and think, although I know that's hard to do, but, when America's CEOs are paid 300 times as much as their workers, and foreign companies pay their CEOs less than 100 times their average workers, it isn't entirely the workers' faults for pricing ourselves out of the market. I noticed that you conveniently didn't reply to that portion of my thread; the truth hurts!

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
I hope your employees find out how much time you spend on here instead of 'running the company' if that's what you want to call it.

You're welcome to raise capital, buy me out, then tell me how I may spend my spare time. One of the benefits of "being the boss" is that I'm not accountable to anyone aside from the other boss (my wife).

If you aren't happy that I hire cheaper and better foreign workers then please, by all means, raise the money, buy me out, fire all the foreign workers, and hire as many overpriced American slobs as your heart desires.

Really.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by KarlG:
... when America's CEOs are paid 300 times as much as their workers...

Perhaps because it would take the initiative, know-how, and ability of 300 American workers to do the job of one CEO.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by KarlG:
It's okay for workers to be a little less greedy...

Workers aren't in charge. Should we pay the lowly soldier in the military the same as an admiral as well?

, but the CEO doesn't have to sacrifice anything;

That's one of the benefits of being the boss.

he just take the difference and puts it in his pocket and that's okay.

You do know that CEOs are paid a salary based on performance and what the Board gives them? You act like a CEO is the sole proprietor and can set his own wages.

Odd, how your own inflated wages don't figure into your business decisions, isn't it?

It doesn't need to because I'm the boss.

Your disdain for the American worker is pathetic. Why don't you move overseas?

If you bleed so much for your fellow worker what's stopping you from starting a business and paying them whatever your heart is content with?

Typical lefty.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Perhaps because it would take the initiative, know-how, and ability of 300 American workers to do the job of one CEO.

Well, at least you're good for a laugh!

Typical greedy, overpaid glutton.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Typical greedy, overpaid glutton.

So, what's stopping you from opening a business and paying your employees every penny of your profits?

Let me know when you do. Thanks. Otherwise you're just all talk and no walk.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

But the cost of living is dramatically higher than it was even a decade ago, and rising exponentially.

The goal of anyone working is to eventually retire. Which means making more than COL, so you can stow some away.

This is historically a problem since the Industrial Age.

But yes... america is a bit over hyped. A fast food employee is just that... fast food. Not a 'chief', and should be paid accordingly.

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Workers need to help themselves. While a growing economy can create opportunities, it is up to workers themselves to identify and seize such opportunities.

One such opportunity would be for these workers to refinance their homes to take advantage of these bargain-basement rates. That would save them thousands a year. Another opportunity would be for these workers to take out a home equity loan and take some college and/or vocational classes to enhance their skill set.

Some problems with that.

Refinancing isn't a free thing to do. In most cases it's very time consuming and means hiring someone (cost). It's not wise to do without a lawyer (unless you are one), considering the loopholes you can fall into Even with long term savings... not to many people who really need these savings can afford to shell that money out up front. Should they take a loan out to do that? Or a better question... can they?

Many people don't realize that they can pay ahead on their morgage. By doing so, you don't pay the interest. If you pay a few hundred a year on your morgage, all that money goes against the debt without paying the interest... that's big savings over time, and gets rid of your morgage that much quicker (often the biggest debt a person will have in their lifetime).

You don't have to pay on schedule. That's just the minimum requirement.

Put your extra cash occasionally into it, and the savings in the end are just as good as refinancing, or any other reorganization you can do... but the end result is your debt is gone quicker. Rather than prolonging the debt.

Quicker you remove the debt, the better off you are.

There are very few reasons to ever refinance your home. Other than you just enjoy doing it.


Loans aren't great for people in those situations (if they can even get them, as loans are harder today then they used to be). It creates liability. When your living paycheck to paycheck, that's the last thing in the world you want. More debt.

It's like telling a cancer patient to eat a tumor.

Though in some states, county colleges are becoming very affordable alternative for people wishing to bone up on some skills and get a better job. They are great opportunities not to many take advantage of. Ideally the feds would pump some more money into these institutions to make them more widespread and accessible. As well as diversify them (as some are relatively limited in their offering). Cheap classes in many cases, and they really can help you get a better job.

Taking out loans when your in that situation is a very bad idea unless there's no other alternative (sudden illness and no insurance for example). It digs you even deeper into a hole.

Don't forget the interest that has to be paid.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by chalk_outline:
Great: Homeowners are good now. So what about the renters?

They can find a place with cheaper rent and take out a student loan.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But the cost of living is dramatically higher than it was even a decade ago, and rising exponentially.

If people would start treating their finances as if it were a business instead then the answer to that problem becomes quite clear: cut expenses.

If the COL is too high then it's the same as a resource or labor costs being too high. Time to find a cheaper source. If it means moving then move somewhere else.

Rising COL is no excuse to raise wages.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Refinancing isn't a free thing to do. In most cases it's very time consuming and means hiring someone (cost). It's not wise to do without a lawyer (unless you are one), considering the loopholes you can fall into Even with long term savings... not to many people who really need these savings can afford to shell that money out up front.

You're full of crap. I've refinanced twice in the last 3.5 years and had to pay absolutely nothing up front.

Loans aren't great for people in those situations (if they can even get them, as loans are harder today then they used to be). It creates liability. When your living paycheck to paycheck, that's the last thing in the world you want. More debt.

Student loans enable people to enhance their skills and increase their earning potential. Mortgages are used to pay for appreciable assets. Neither is bad.

If you are a worker whose skills are not in demand, you'd be stupid not to take advantage of either of these opportunities to reduce monthly expenses and/or better your income earning potential.

[RAILhead]

Ahhhahaha, good freakin' crap this place provides all kinds of fun, doesn't it?

All I can say is Spoogepieces and spacefreak, if you're ever in South Texas, email me because I'd like to shake your hands. I love when people who OBVIOUSLY know nothing about how the Real World Of Business works try to make excuses and comments about how things should be Better™ for the Worker™.

In fact, if you ever do come down here, be sure and bring your golf clubs so we hit the links at the private country club I'm a member of. After golf, we could then spend some time at the card table playing Gin or Texas Holdem with some of the other well-off members, pi$$ing away the money we earned since we're so well-off we don't need it anyway. After that, we could drive our SUVs to one of the waaaaayoverpriced restaurants in the area and eat like kings. And then, we could retire to my overpriced home in the "rich" part of town and drink some Peruvian coffee ($24.99 per 1/4 pound) and smoke some Don Tomas cigars while musing over stories of wealth, women, and prosperity.

We'll just have to remember that we can't enjoy any of it because we don't deserve it. Even though we earned it, we should be passing it out like Robin Hood, and we shouldn't be able to sleep at night.

And yes, I'm serious about the offer guys!

Maury

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by KarlG:
You just might want to sit back and think, although I know that's hard to do, but, when America's CEOs are paid 300 times as much as their workers, and foreign companies pay their CEOs less than 100 times their average workers, it isn't entirely the workers' faults for pricing ourselves out of the market. I noticed that you conveniently didn't reply to that portion of my thread; the truth hurts!

So what's your take on Steve Jobs? He's the billionare visionary behind Apple and many believe he is the reason the company is still in business. Without Jobs at the wheel Apple would just be another Commodore.

A great CEO is worth his/her weight in gold if the company is successful. If that means some folks here at home have to lose their jobs then so be it. I'm not saying it's right it's just the way things work. Are most ballplayers worth 10 million per season? Is Tom Cruise worth 20 million per picture?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Ahhhahaha, good freakin' crap this place provides all kinds of fun, doesn't it?

All I can say is Spoogepieces and spacefreak, if you're ever in South Texas, email me because I'd like to shake your hands. I love when people who OBVIOUSLY know nothing about how the Real World Of Business works try to make excuses and comments about how things should be Better™ for the Worker™.

In fact, if you ever do come down here, be sure and bring your golf clubs so we hit the links at the private country club I'm a member of. After golf, we could then spend some time at the card table playing Gin or Texas Holdem with some of the other well-off members, pi$$ing away the money we earned since we're so well-off we don't need it anyway. After that, we could drive our SUVs to one of the waaaaayoverpriced restaurants in the area and eat like kings. And then, we could retire to my overpriced home in the "rich" part of town and drink some Peruvian coffee ($24.99 per 1/4 pound) and smoke some Don Tomas cigars while musing over stories of wealth, women, and prosperity.

We'll just have to remember that we can't enjoy any of it because we don't deserve it. Even though we earned it, we should be passing it out like Robin Hood, and we shouldn't be able to sleep at night.

And yes, I'm serious about the offer guys!

Maury, you're talking to a Dallas Cowboys season ticket holder here (who lives in NJ). Unfortunately, my journeys down there will be by plane, so my SUV will be left here in Jersey.

But I could rent one - one even bigger than mine. Does Hertz down there carry Hummers? Texas is a huge state, and since you're in south Texas, 400-500 miles or so in a Hummer each way...what's that - about 100 gallons of gas total? No biggie... the economy can always use some extra kick.

Anyway, I'm jetting down to Dallas for the Nov 15th game vs. Philly. I was also thinking of spending 7-10 days in Texas, with myself having to be in Dallas for the Oct. 10th game and the game on the 17th. I was thinking of chilling in Austin in between. Very tentative at this point. I should know in a week or so.

However, for speculation's sake, where in Texas are you located?

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
So what's your take on Steve Jobs? He's the billionare visionary behind Apple and many believe he is the reason the company is still in business. Without Jobs at the wheel Apple would just be another Commodore.

A great CEO is worth his/her weight in gold if the company is successful. If that means some folks here at home have to lose their jobs then so be it. I'm not saying it's right it's just the way things work. Are most ballplayers worth 10 million per season? Is Tom Cruise worth 20 million per picture?

I think Jobs is a poor example to use when demonstrating this point. First, though Jobs has a considerable stake in Apple's success in the form of stock options, his actual salary for his job as CEO of Apple is only $1 (link). This is a highly irregular occurrence, and I would consider this an extreme - making it a poor example.

Also, by the same token, a well trained and motivated workforce is worth its weight in gold. Management and labor are equally important.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:

Also, by the same token, a well trained and motivated workforce is worth its weight in gold. Management and labor are equally important.

It's far easier to find and train someone to be a worker than to be a manager or an owner.

That's just the way it is. Workers are expendable. Managers and owners aren't.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
his actual salary for his job as CEO of Apple is only $1 (link). This is a highly irregular occurrence, and I would consider this an extreme - making it a poor example.

Also, by the same token, a well trained and motivated workforce is worth its weight in gold. Management and labor are equally important.

You actually buy into that $1 crap? That was just Jobs being cute. Where do you think he gets his money from? I guess that personal jet of his is just some sort of perk of the job

On that same token I guess you think Steve's notoriety for belittling his employees is some form of sick motivation? Motivation not to get fired more like it.

Someone besides an Apple Apologist please reply.

[LoganCharles]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
It's far easier to find and train someone to be a worker than to be a manager or an owner.

That's just the way it is. Workers are expendable. Managers and owners aren't.

Exactly. Also a good employee will rarely stick around long term because they're going to want to move up to a better paying job or position.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
It's far easier to find and train someone to be a worker than to be a manager or an owner.

That's just the way it is. Workers are expendable. Managers and owners aren't.

Depends on the type of work that needs to be done, and the quality of the work you desire, really. You get what you pay for, and that includes labor.

Technical and engineering jobs are being outsourced as well. I wonder what will happen in 20 years given the trend of outsourcing entry-level positions now. The experienced scientists, technicians, and engineers that are managing products and teams now had to enter the workforce and gain the experience they require to effectively manage their workforce somehow. Usually, that means starting on the bottom and working your way to the top.

In capitalism and a free market society, it is often said that the "cream will rise to the top," but how can we expect that to occur if we remove many of our points of entry?

I am not opposed to people being rewarded for their hard work, diligence, intelligence, creativity, business acumen, or whatever other skills may be needed in a complete society. But, I have some concerns about the long term sustainability of the workforce if this trend of outsourcing continues.

Outsourcing has certainly proven it's capability to increase short term profits, but it's repercussions on long term stability remains to be seen - and I'm not optimistic.

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
You actually buy into that $1 crap? That was just Jobs being cute. Where do you think he gets his money from? I guess that personal jet of his is just some sort of perk of the job

On that same token I guess you think Steve's notoriety for belittling his employees is some form of sick motivation? Motivation not to get fired more like it.

Someone besides an Apple Apologist please reply.

I wasn't negating your point, actually... just pointing out that Jobs makes a poor example, in this case. The two paragraphs were separate thoughts - one noting the poor choice of the example, and the other offering an alternative viewpoint to your argument. There was no connection between the two paragraphs aside from the fact that they were both in the same post to avoid unnecessary spam.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:

Technical and engineering jobs are being outsourced as well. I wonder what will happen in 20 years given the trend of outsourcing entry-level positions now. The experienced scientists, technicians, and engineers that are managing products and teams now had to enter the workforce and gain the experience they require to effectively manage their workforce somehow. Usually, that means starting on the bottom and working your way to the top.

You do realize that many of the brightest minds actually came from overseas to begin with? After all, Johnny and Jane are too concerned with the latest Britney Spears CD to be concerned about their homework.

In reality what's going to happen is the U.S. is going to fall behind further because our students in general are too dumb, too lazy, and too fat to do much better than slap burgers or ring up groceries. We are nothing but consumers for the most part and produce very little because we are overpriced and too stupid. Most of the technological innovation is staying overseas now where it originated in the first place.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
You do realize that many of the brightest minds actually came from overseas to begin with? After all, Johnny and Jane are too concerned with the latest Britney Spears CD to be concerned about their homework.

In reality what's going to happen is the U.S. is going to fall behind further because our students in general are too dumb, too lazy, and too fat to do much better than slap burgers or ring up groceries. We are nothing but consumers for the most part and produce very little because we are overpriced and too stupid. Most of the technological innovation is staying overseas now where it originated in the first place.

I've never seen such a contradictory person. You blame consumers and workers for everything. Hello? Nearly all these things you claim to be junk are the product of CEOs, executives and other high wage earners expoiting the working classes by giving them less quality choice and bombarding them with sugared up, high profit, high turnover, little lasting value products.

I'm still trying to get over your 'I'm a CEO of a small business' remark.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Maybe if overpriced American workers hadn't put themselves out to pasture many of the millions of jobs being created overseas would have stayed here instead.

You talking of CEOs?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by LoganCharles:
So what's your take on Steve Jobs? He's the billionare visionary behind Apple and many believe he is the reason the company is still in business. Without Jobs at the wheel Apple would just be another Commodore.

A great CEO is worth his/her weight in gold if the company is successful. If that means some folks here at home have to lose their jobs then so be it. I'm not saying it's right it's just the way things work. Are most ballplayers worth 10 million per season? Is Tom Cruise worth 20 million per picture?

I have no qualms with Steve Jobs and Apple, because they treat their workers fairly, provide good pay and benefits, and still make money, for everyone. When companies think that the only ones who are entitled to live decently are the executive class, that's a problem. When companies cut or take away benefits, from the people who provide the income for the company, and the executives suffer no commensurate loss, that's a problem, especially when those companies often receive government incentives. When their employees have to go to publicly subsidized health clinics, because they can't afford insurance, while the executive class lounges on their yachts, that's a problem.

As to the statements made that one should get a better education and improve one's life, that's fine, as far as it goes. But it's also a strawman argument, in that we all know that not everybody can be the CEO of the company. We need people at all levels of the company, and they should all be treated with dignity and respect, whether they clean the floor or analyze operations. That is the crux of this issue. We have employees in this country who are treated little better than slaves, while those at the top live like kings, and think they're actualy entitled to do so because of their greed and lack of concern for anyone but themselves.

Some people have a conscience, and some don't.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
You do realize that many of the brightest minds actually came from overseas to begin with? After all, Johnny and Jane are too concerned with the latest Britney Spears CD to be concerned about their homework.

In reality what's going to happen is the U.S. is going to fall behind further because our students in general are too dumb, too lazy, and too fat to do much better than slap burgers or ring up groceries. We are nothing but consumers for the most part and produce very little because we are overpriced and too stupid. Most of the technological innovation is staying overseas now where it originated in the first place.

Only the executive class has any brains, right?

Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone overseas, right?
The transistor was invented overseas, right?
The laser was discovered overseas, right?
Intel, IBM, and Motorola were founded overseas, right?
Most of the important medical discoveries of the last century were from overseas, right?
Henry Ford was a foreigner, right?
I could go on and on, but I doubt you'd get the point. Of course, you may have one, but if you keep your hat on, nobody will notice.

You need to get over yourself. You're the only smart one here, right?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
You're full of crap. I've refinanced twice in the last 3.5 years and had to pay absolutely nothing up front.

Student loans enable people to enhance their skills and increase their earning potential. Mortgages are used to pay for appreciable assets. Neither is bad.

If you are a worker whose skills are not in demand, you'd be stupid not to take advantage of either of these opportunities to reduce monthly expenses and/or better your income earning potential.

As an educated adult you would know if you just paid towards the morgage with an extra payment, you would have reduced the overall cost of the morgage, as well as reduce the debt.

Why the heck you would do something as stupid as refinance twice in 4 years is beyond comprehension... do you work for a bank?


When your a poorer household (topic of conversation), the key is to reduce, prevent debt. Not increase it. Because all it takes 1 small thing to make a situation bad. family member gets sick with no insurance (as most people in this situation are)... recession etc... and that's it.


That's what happened to most people last time around. During the dot com period everyone felt that debt wasn't a big deal... economy was growing... but when it colapsed, and a few lost their jobs... that debt wasn't easy to carry.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by KarlG:

Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone overseas, right?
The transistor was invented overseas, right?
The laser was discovered overseas, right?

These are innovations by working class scientists. Spooge probably thinks they are CEOs.

Most of the important medical discoveries of the last century were from overseas, right?

They were but Spooge probably thinks medical discoveries are made by CEOs.

Henry Ford was a foreigner, right?

An anti-Semite who supported Hitler.

[BlackGriffen]

Just wait until the foreign workers decide to insource for CEOs in order to save money, and be more competitive. With the cost savings available, the consumers will naturally buy from the companies that have insourced their CEOs and other management.

Won't that be fun.

BG

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
As an educated adult you would know if you just paid towards the morgage with an extra payment, you would have reduced the overall cost of the morgage, as well as reduce the debt.

Why the heck you would do something as stupid as refinance twice in 4 years is beyond comprehension... do you work for a bank?

7.75% to 6.75% to 5.5%. Same payoff period, but each payment was initially $1700 and is now about $1000.

I do make extra payments, thank you. However, I also wanted to do some home improvement work and kick some money into a start-up business.

If that's stupid, then so be it.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
You do realize that many of the brightest minds actually came from overseas to begin with? After all, Johnny and Jane are too concerned with the latest Britney Spears CD to be concerned about their homework.

In reality what's going to happen is the U.S. is going to fall behind further because our students in general are too dumb, too lazy, and too fat to do much better than slap burgers or ring up groceries. We are nothing but consumers for the most part and produce very little because we are overpriced and too stupid. Most of the technological innovation is staying overseas now where it originated in the first place.

First of all, this does not address my concern in the least. By the time a person graduates a university with a 4-year degree, especially when that degree requires in excess of 4 semesters of calculus and calculus based physics or other sciences in both pure and applied forms, they would be the least of any group of people to be called "too dumb, too lazy, and too fat to do much better than slap burgers or ring up groceries."

My concerns do not deal with the lazy dregs of our society, but with the hard working, educated, yet inexperienced persons leaving our educational system after actually having done the work required of them.

Fortunately, it looks like someone is finally trying to take an objective look at this. The Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers, US chapter (IEEE-USA) just helped persuade congress to conduct a $2 Million independent study on the effects on outsourcing jobs in the US (disclaimer: I am a member of the IEEE). Perhaps when this study is completed we may continue this discussion with some hard facts, not merely philosophical musings that won't change anyone's view on the matter?

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone overseas, right?
The transistor was invented overseas, right?
The laser was discovered overseas, right?
Intel, IBM, and Motorola were founded overseas, right?
Most of the important medical discoveries of the last century were from overseas, right?
Henry Ford was a foreigner, right?

In terms of technology you have named things which are by all means ancient history at this point. Congratulations, you proved my point for me.

When the average American is too stupid and too dumb to program a VCR, run a virus check, or get their oil changed compared to say the average Japanese or Korean then perhaps you'll recognize just how far down the sewer this country is going intellectually.