[Spoogepieces]

Kerry would ban the very gun he was waving just the other day!

I lost half of my coffee on the monitor on this one.

[BRussell]

That shotgun doesn't have a pistol grip. Or, at least, it has a lot more than just a pistol grip. I'm guessing that aspect of the law is geared toward shotguns with only a pistol grip, i.e., one meant to be shot one-handed.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by BRussell:


That shotgun doesn't have a pistol grip. Or, at least, it has a lot more than just a pistol grip. I'm guessing that aspect of the law is geared toward shotguns with only a pistol grip, i.e., one meant to be shot one-handed.

Nope, the law isn't that specific. It basically includes any firarm with a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

Here's a link to the bill.

Maury

Oh, and I thought "lefties" hated all of us "gun-toters" anyway?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Kerry would ban the very gun he was waving just the other day!

I lost half of my coffee on the monitor on this one.

And when presented with the gun: "I thank you for the gift, but I can't take it to the debate with me," Kerry told a cheering crowd as he held up the device.

[PacHead]

[RAILhead]

I'm bored at work today, so I was Photoshopping On The Job. This threads seems as good as any for some Kerry pics...















Not hilariously funny, I know, but it's passing the time.

Maury

[Zimphire]

[BRussell]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Nope, the law isn't that specific. It basically includes any firarm with a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

Maybe it's vague enough that you could read it that way, but I seriously doubt that the bill is intended to ban every shotgun with a grip like that. Aren't those types of grips really common among regular shotguns? I could be wrong though.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
*snip*

Any chance to try and be as clever as Zimphire, huh?

[zigzag]

"Pistol grip" would seem to refer to a grip that can be held independently of the rifle stock, which is not the case here. The NRA strategy appears to be: Scare people by arguing that under the act, any shotgun with any extension or articulation of the stock of any kind or size (such as the one Kerry is holding) could be considered a "pistol grip," even though that's clearly not the intent. Perhaps the statute could have been drafted more clearly, but the idea that it's intended to outlaw ordinary shotguns is just NRA FUD. Of course, this doesn't prevent Drudge and others from repeating it.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Any chance to try and be as clever as Zimphire, huh?

Nah, I'm not in a funny or creative mood today, plus I'm not altering images any.

Maury

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by zigzag:
"Pistol grip" would seem to refer to a grip that can be held independently of the rifle stock, which is not the case here. The NRA strategy appears to be: Scare people by arguing that under the act, any shotgun with any extension or articulation of the stock of any kind or size (such as the one Kerry is holding) could be considered a "pistol grip," even though that's clearly not the intent. Perhaps the statute could have been drafted more clearly, but the idea that it's intended to outlaw ordinary shotguns is just NRA FUD. Of course, this doesn't prevent Drudge and others from repeating it.

Did you read the bill before posting that?

Maury

[Atomic Rooster]

Things Republicans Believe

Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

Government should relax regulation of Big Business and Big Money but crack down on individuals who use marijuana to relieve the pain of illness.


"Standing Tall for America" means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run for governor of California as a Republican.

If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of the public at heart.

Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a right to adopt.

What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.

Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Hilarious!!!

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Things Republicans Believe

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:

[zigzag]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Did you read the bill before posting that?

Maury

Yes. Do you honestly believe the bill was intended to ban the firearm that Kerry is holding?

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Yes. Do you honestly believe the bill was intended to ban the firearm that Kerry is holding?

Dude, it's not really a matter of debate -- that rifle and hundreds of others all fit within the definition set out in the ambiguous bill. My posts were to simply refute those that commented that the bill was only about "pistol-grip" firearms. "Pistol-grip" is the ambigous word used in the bill, and due to the ambiguity, some righties are making a big deal over it. Not me.

I don't care how many guns Kerry has as long as he doesn't try and take mine awway.

Maury

[zigzag]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Dude, it's not really a matter of debate -- that rifle and hundreds of others all fit within the definition set out in the ambiguous bill. My posts were to simply refute those that commented that the bill was only about "pistol-grip" firearms. "Pistol-grip" is the ambigous word used in the bill, and due to the ambiguity, some righties are making a big deal over it. Not me.

I don't care how many guns Kerry has as long as he doesn't try and take mine awway.

Maury

Dude, I'm confused - how exactly does the pictured rifle fit within the definition? Please explain.

And if it is within the definition, why do you not believe it's a big deal? You appear to agree with me that the bill isn't really intended to ban the pictured firearm, and that "some righties are making a big deal over it," while at the same time challenging my position. Please explain. Dude.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Dude, I'm confused - how exactly does the pictured rifle fit within the definition? Please explain.

Isn't that a shotgun? Shotguns aren't rifled.

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Isn't that a shotgun? Shotguns aren't rifled.

This is a nit --> *
You can pick that one too, if you like.

BG

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Dude, I'm confused - how exactly does the pictured rifle fit within the definition? Please explain.

And if it is within the definition, why do you not believe it's a big deal? You appear to agree with me that the bill isn't really intended to ban the pictured firearm, and that "some righties are making a big deal over it," while at the same time challenging my position. Please explain. Dude.

Read up on the firearm itself and you'll see that the manufacturer even describes the grip as a pistol grip, thus, it fits into the bill. As to why I don't care, well, I just don't. And you misunderstand me: some can stretch the bill to include said firearm based on the verbage in the bill and the manufacturer's statements, so I can plainly see why the firearm fits into the bill (as I stated).

Dude.

Maury

[zigzag]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Isn't that a shotgun? Shotguns aren't rifled.

Correct - I should have been more precise - but the bill includes:

(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has--
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip;
(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds.

I'm not very knowledgeable about firearms but I don't believe that any reasonable person, or any court of law, would conclude that the pictured firearm has a pistol grip. Being more knowledgeable about these things than I am, would you?

Also, is the pictured firearm semiautomatic?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Any chance to try and be as clever as Zimphire, huh?

Pffft, he's waay cooler than I am.

[davesimondotcom]

First, Kerry's Campaign has responded here.

Of course, I was under the impression that this story started at the Drudge Report and not with the GOP, so the entire response is misdirected, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Second, whether the gun would have been banned, the real offensive part was what Kerry said when handed the gun:

"I thank you for the gift, but I can't take it to the debate with me."

Is that not an implied threat against the life of the President?

[zigzag]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Read up on the firearm itself and you'll see that the manufacturer even describes the grip as a pistol grip, thus, it fits into the bill.

OK, thanks, that helps me understand where you're coming from. For my own education, do you have a link to the manufacturer's description? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - it never occurred to me that that would be considered a pistol grip.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
My hate filled projections.

Fixed.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Correct - I should have been more precise - but the bill includes:



I'm not very knowledgeable about firearms but I don't believe that any reasonable person, or any court of law, would conclude that the pictured firearm has a pistol grip. Being more knowledgeable about these things than I am, would you?

Also, is the pictured firearm semiautomatic?

The pictured shotgun is semiautomatic, and the way I read that statute, it's outlawed if it includes any one of the offending characteristics. I see semicolons followed by an "or" not an "and." I don't know that shotgun but if it has a magazine capacity of more than five shells, it would be banned regardless of whether it has a pistol grip or folding stock.

Personally, I don't see what difference a pistol grip makes anyway. An M1 Garand rifle (basic infantry weapon of WW-II) has no pistol grip. Does anyone want to suggest that it's lack of a pistol grip makes it any less deadly?

These laws that focus on irrelevant cosmetics make no sense to me. Even the fact that a shotgun is semiautomatic is pretty dumb. Semiautomatic shotguns are very long, and therefore unconcealable. I would think a criminal would prefer a shorter shotgun.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by zigzag:
OK, thanks, that helps me understand where you're coming from. For my own education, do you have a link to the manufacturer's description? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - it never occurred to me that that would be considered a pistol grip.

Here's Baretta's web page on the firearm. For other that have asked, yes, it's a semi-automatic. As to the pistol grip specification, the stock length of said firearm is 360 mm with full pistol grip.

HTH,
Maury

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Here's Baretta's web page on the firearm. For other that have asked, yes, it's a semi-automatic. As to the pistol grip specification, the stock length of said firearm is 360 mm with full pistol grip.

HTH,
Maury

OK, 4 shell magazine plus one in the chamber. So it is clear on that score. Regardless of what the manufacturer says I am not sure that it really has a pistol grip. Maybe there is something in the law that defines more accurately what a pistol grip is? It seems like a vague description to me, and consequently open to abuse.

All in all, a dumb statute that is badly-written, and which focuses on the wrong things. Thankfully, it didn't pass.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Here's Baretta's web page on the firearm. For other that have asked, yes, it's a semi-automatic. As to the pistol grip specification, the stock length of said firearm is 360 mm with full pistol grip.

HTH,
Maury

Thanks - I didn't know that that constituted a pistol grip. I was mistaken.

I still have trouble believing that the bill was intended to ban such firearms. If it does, it's wrong.

[RAILhead]

Seems some reports were reporting the incorrect firearm. VoteYourSport.com is stating he received a Remington model 11-87 shotgun, which would fall into the generic "assault rifle" verbage in the bill.

Maury

[rambo47]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

That sheep looks might nervous. With good reason, I suspect! Kenned.....er, I mean Kerry, looks like he has that romantic gleam in his eyes.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Things Republicans Believe