[Logic]

linky

"Bring it on"

"America is safer"

"I don't care about Bin Ladin"

"Mission accomplished"

Forbidding photographs of the coffins.

etc etc etc.


Human beings are so made that the ones who do the crushing feel nothing; it is the person crushed who feels what is happening. Unless one has placed oneself on the side of the oppressed, to feel with them, one cannot understand.
Simone Weil


A desire to resist oppression is implanted in the nature of man.
Tacitus

[MacGorilla]

[PacHead]

Yeah, what's the kill ratio ? Like 100 to 1 ?

That's 1,000 heroes there, and they have saved many more American lives. How long we been in Iraq ?

Look at 9-11 - - - - Didn't take more than a few hours for thousands dead - - -

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:

WTF???

Stop crying like a little girl and get a hold of yourself! Be a man for F**sakes!

Those deaths were necessary to save the people of Iraq.

Remember?

10 000 innocents necessary dead Iraqis for the Holy cause of Good vs Evil?

Those soldiers volunteered. They knew they were going to die there. They are paid for this. It is their job, just as if they were working as President, as Generals, as bankers, as teachers, as cooks, as engineers, as CEOs, as nurses, as priests, as security guards, as CIA agents, as reporters, comedians, actors, SysAdmin, doctors, pornstars, beauticians, psychologists, policeman, zoologists and so on and so forth.

The daily duty of Americans is to sacrifice themselves for the flag and do their duty as models of Freedom to the rest of the world.

They are there to free and protect America, They are the emissaries of the "Free" world...

10 000 iraqis for 1000 American soldiers. That is only 1 in 10. Peanuts!

Now, 2 billions "terrorists" to go

Oh the irony...

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
WTF???

Stop crying like a little girl and get a hold of yourself! Be a man for F**sakes!

Those deaths were necessary to save the people of Iraq.

Remember?

10 000 innocents necessary dead Iraqis for the Holy cause of Good vs Evil?

Those soldiers volunteered. They knew they were going to die there. They are paid for this. It is their job, just as if they were working as President, as Generals, as bankers, as teachers, as cooks, as engineers, as CEOs, as nurses, as priests, as security guards, as CIA agents, as reporters, comedians, actors, SysAdmin, doctors, pornstars, beauticians, psychologists, policeman, zoologists and so on and so forth.

The daily duty of Americans is to sacrifice themselves for the flag and do their duty as models of Freedom to the rest of the world.

They are there to free and protect America, They are the emissaries of the "Free" world...

10 000 iraqis for 1000 American soldiers. That is only 1 in 10. Peanuts!

Now, 2 billions "terrorists" to go

Oh the irony...

Cripes, I *never* thought we'd agree on ANYTHING, angaq0k!

Maury

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Cripes, I *never* thought we'd agree on ANYTHING, angaq0k!

Maury

You clearly have not read my post.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
You clearly have not read my post.

I pretty much agree with your post also.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I pretty much agree with your post also.

Tiens,

un autre qui sait pas lire...

[voodoo]

I don't know what to say.. congratulations?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Tiens,

un autre qui sait pas lire...

Det hadde v�rt fint om du kunne skrevet p� engelsk skj�nner du.

Har du noe � si til meg, s� f�r du bare si det.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Det hadde v�rt fint om du kunne skrevet p� engelsk skj�nner du.

Har du noe � si til meg, s� f�r du bare si det.

Jeg gl�mmer bestandig du snakker norsk!

Vel vel, det gj�r han sikkert ikke. Poeng til deg eh?

[forkies]

Originally posted by PacHead:
That's 1,000 heroes there, and they have saved many more American lives. How long we been in Iraq ?
Look at 9-11 - - - - Didn't take more than a few hours for thousands dead - - -

so, would it be easy to point me in the direction of the "terrorists" then, if we are so concerned with death tolls?

[angaq0k]

In Iraq, 1 American soldier for 10 civilian Muslims.

Woaw.

Can you see the irony now?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Yeah, what's the kill ratio ? Like 100 to 1 ?

That's 1,000 heroes there, and they have saved many more American lives. How long we been in Iraq ?

Look at 9-11 - - - - Didn't take more than a few hours for thousands dead - - -

Yes, something like 100 to 1. Of course, 99 of those 100 are innocent civilians that got the ultimate "liberation"

[spauldingg]

One for my Dad who died last week.

I was going to put 1000 more for every american life, hundreds more for the soldiers of other nations, and ten thousand for Iraqi civilians. But I'm just gonna put one more.



for the people who treat life with such little respect.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spauldingg:


for the people who treat life with such little respect.

on both sides of the fence

[voodoo]

Originally posted by spauldingg:

One for my Dad who died last week.

I was going to put 1000 more for every american life, hundreds more for the soldiers of other nations, and ten thousand for Iraqi civilians. But I'm just gonna put one more.



for the people who treat life with such little respect.

I feel for you man

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by spauldingg:

One for my Dad who died last week.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Was your dad in the military? If so, how did he feel about your left-leaning views and discontent with his commander-in-chief? Was that an awkward situation?

If he did serve, I'd like to thank you for his service to our nation. And regardless of his military status, I wish you and your family the best.

[spauldingg]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
I'm sorry for your loss.

Was your dad in the military? If so, how did he feel about your left-leaning views and discontent with his commander-in-chief? Was that an awkward situation?

If he did serve, I'd like to thank you for his service to our nation. And regardless of his military status, I wish you and your family the best.

My Dad was in the navy in the late fifties, I hope, in my sadness and anger I didn't give the impression he was killed in Iraq. We chose not to talk politics or religion for the last few years, and to concentrate on common ground, movies, music, art and such. We collaborated on a website last year, over long distance phone and email, and it brought us closer together than we had been in years. I hadn't seen him in fifteen years until around fathers day, then he went into the ICU for two months, rarely able to speak.

Thank you for your condolences, and those of the posts above.

again
I didn't want to turn this into my tragedy thread, I just wanted to remind people here that our usual discussions about war need to be less about politics and more about people.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by spauldingg:
I didn't want to turn this into my tragedy thread, I just wanted to remind people here that our usual discussions about war need to be less about politics and more about people.

Hey, man, if you need to turn this into your personal tragedy thraed, feel free. It's only a message board. We can all yell at each other in other threads.

As for our discussions about war needing to be less about politics and more about people, I differ from you in the sense that I lost a good friend on 9/11. My discussions about politics are very much influenced by my desire to try and make sure that others in our nation do not suffer the same fate just because they went to work (or school, as in Russia).

BTW: Is designasaur the site you weorked on with your dad? If not, would it be possible for me to pay a visit to you and your late father's joint project.

No biggie if the answer is "no". Take care.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by spauldingg:

I didn't want to turn this into my tragedy thread, I just wanted to remind people here that our usual discussions about war need to be less about politics and more about people.

Sorry for your loss. The reason we fight war is exactly because of "people".

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
WTF???

Stop crying like a little girl and get a hold of yourself! Be a man for F**sakes!

Those deaths were necessary to save the people of Iraq.

Remember?

10 000 innocents necessary dead Iraqis for the Holy cause of Good vs Evil?

Those soldiers volunteered. They knew they were going to die there. They are paid for this. It is their job, just as if they were working as President, as Generals, as bankers, as teachers, as cooks, as engineers, as CEOs, as nurses, as priests, as security guards, as CIA agents, as reporters, comedians, actors, SysAdmin, doctors, pornstars, beauticians, psychologists, policeman, zoologists and so on and so forth.

The daily duty of Americans is to sacrifice themselves for the flag and do their duty as models of Freedom to the rest of the world.

They are there to free and protect America, They are the emissaries of the "Free" world...

10 000 iraqis for 1000 American soldiers. That is only 1 in 10. Peanuts!

Now, 2 billions "terrorists" to go

Oh the irony...

Yep, right on. Glad to see we can agree... finally.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by forkies:
so, would it be easy to point me in the direction of the "terrorists" then, if we are so concerned with death tolls?

Just walk down the street in Gaza City or Tikrit, mention you're from a western country (or any non-Arab country really) and see how long it takes for them to find you.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Was your dad in the military? If so, how did he feel about your left-leaning views and discontent with his commander-in-chief? Was that an awkward situation?

Not too sure, but that seems a little low.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
As for our discussions about war needing to be less about politics and more about people, I differ from you in the sense that I lost a good friend on 9/11. My discussions about politics are very much influenced by my desire to try and make sure that others in our nation do not suffer the same fate just because they went to work (or school, as in Russia).

We're in similar positions then. My God-daughter was murdered in a Palestinian suicide bombing. 6 years old, died on a bus while going to school.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
We're in similar positions then. My God-daughter was murdered in a Palestinian suicide bombing. 6 years old, died on a bus while going to school.

Wow, that's really terrible. You have my condolences. Those terrorists (I believe the thread starter refers to them as "resistance fighters") are really barbarians.

I support any war to rid the world of these scum, and I am glad some of my tax money goes towards achieving this goal.

[Anders]

Your tax money go to large cars in Tel Aviv and fencing palestinians from their fields, schools and work and thus for the continuation of the conflict.

MacNStein: I�m sorry about your family I REALLY REALLY hope that something happens in Israel that will stop this conflict. With each suicide bomb in Tel Aviv I have taken out my map to see where it happened. Most places I have been and have a mental picture of the place and is sadden even more because then it isn�t just some place somewhere in the world. But with the last bomb in Beersheba it was much worse for some reason. My idea of Beersheba is as belonging outside the mutual terrorcycle I have connected with Gaza, West Bank and the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv axis

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Not too sure, but that seems a little low.

I'm quite certain it's low, but to be expected from spacefreak. These, too, are words that were poorly thought out:

Hey, man, if you need to turn this into your personal tragedy thraed, feel free.

Couldn't you think of any better way to put that? You make the act sound selfish with how you worded that.

My condolences, spauldingg. Remember in your loss that you have friends, both here and I'm sure in real life, that you can turn to for support. Please feel free to share your thoughts here, or in a new thread in the main lounge, if you prefer.

I wish I could say more, but when it comes to such matters, my tongue fails me. You have my sympathies, though.

BlackGriffen

P.S. I don't recall if I ever told you this, and I know it's rather late to do so, by my condolences spacefreak and MacNStein. I would just counsel that you be careful not to let your grief cloud your judgment, in spite of your noble intentions.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by spauldingg:

One for my Dad who died last week.

I was going to put 1000 more for every american life, hundreds more for the soldiers of other nations, and ten thousand for Iraqi civilians. But I'm just gonna put one more.



for the people who treat life with such little respect.

Sincerest sympathies for your loss. I guess we forget easily how some of us are closer to the departed, and how easy it is to become insensitive once we turn to "political debate" mode.

And I give my sincerest sympathies to MacNstein as well for the loss of a God-daughter as well to any other people crossing this discussion board who had to suffer such losses and griefs.

Sad but true, we are all looking for some peace, and in disagreement on the way to achieve it, we come back together through our griefs...



And to make this my final participation in this thread, I still disapprove totally of this war, as I am opposed to terrorism.

I just wish we could take some time to pounder and understand why this is happening, so we can avoid such grief. I am sorry if I was not explicit enough, but those who agreed with my first post misundertood me completly.

And to Logic as well as any Muslims on this board, please accept my apologies if I failed to convey my irony about this, for I am not opposed or supporting Muslims. I just want everyone to get along...

[Logic]

Great Post. You said everything I had to say but said it so much better than I could.

[spauldingg]

I'm not too upset about spacefreaks' question about my politics, as I did post this in a political lounge, I'm just wondering how he automatically equates military service with conservatism? And I was the one to use the "personal tragedy thread" quote first...

Anyway, the site I worked on with dad was Americatures (don't try to buy anything, haven't had the time to pull down the buy buttons yet.) He did the Art over the last 30 years, and I put the site together.

Thanks again for the condolences of all.

[Dakar]

1,000 dead doesn't make an just war unjust.

1,000 dead doesn't make an unjust more unjust.

[ebuddy]

But with the last bomb in Beersheba it was much worse for some reason. My idea of Beersheba is as belonging outside the mutual terrorcycle I have connected with Gaza, West Bank and the Jerusalem.

It is definitely unfortunate. The wall was not completed through Beersheba and allowed the bombers access to Israel there.

In regards to the rest of the posters, I try to stay away from the death toll argument because I find many who oppose our actions in Iraq are all too quick to point the numbers out. Almost as if they long for tragedy to somehow affirm their mistaken political view.

I want everyone to get along as well. Unfortunately, human-nature will not allow this to be. The US always has and always will offer the lion-share of humanitarian aide abroad in the hope of Peace, health, and prosperity, but the targeted recipient was not allowed to embrace it because of a dictatorial regime interested only in propogating violence through indoctrination. Afterall, how many bags of grain and rice with USA printed on them can you see without eventually thinking we Americans are okay? Not many. You want our interference when it comes to feeding your hungry. You want our interference when it comes to AIDS research, medical funding, research, and medication. We're now going to ensure our aide reaches it's intended recipient until that recipient is strengthened enough to achieve sustainance on his own. You may not like it, but it is so.

Peace at times requires a painful immunization. Many children abroad fear the needle so much they will not take the shot. The infection is then allowed to grow until it takes the health and life of it's victim. We will not be victimized by inaction. Not by those in our country, not by those abroad. Our actions while painful to you, are necessary to rid the world of it's infection. Why does the US feel it's her responsibility? Because no one else is taking the responsibility and the infection has been allowed to spread. It's now victimizing the French, The Russian, The Israeli, and the American. With inaction it will continue en route to the Italian, the German, The Australian, The Chinese, the Mexican, ...

and to the vast number of you confused about many suggesting they agreed with angaq0k's post, I hope a sense of humor spreads to you soon.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Logic:
linky

"Bring it on"

"America is safer"

"I don't care about Bin Ladin"

"Mission accomplished"

Forbidding photographs of the coffins.

etc etc etc.


Human beings are so made that the ones who do the crushing feel nothing; it is the person crushed who feels what is happening. Unless one has placed oneself on the side of the oppressed, to feel with them, one cannot understand.
Simone Weil


A desire to resist oppression is implanted in the nature of man.
Tacitus

What is your point? We are at war. Soldiers die. Since killer muslims continue to attack children, women and other innocent civilians, more soldiers will die.

[Anders]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
It is definitely unfortunate. The wall was not completed through Beersheba and allowed the bombers access to Israel there.

When was the wall ever planned to go through Beersheba? Its not part of the west bank. With the same logic you could say that its unfortunate that the wall isn�t boardering all of Tel Aviv to keep the bombers out.

[spacefreak]

By way of comparison, 1000 students in the US committ suicide every year, and 47,000-50,000 people die each year on US highways.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
By way of comparison, 1000 students in the US committ suicide every year, and 47,000-50,000 people die each year on US highways.

Of course, all of that means absolutely nothing, but we could sh*t numbers all day!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Each American soldier killed in action, or in a combat-related accident is a tragedy. All Americans ought to honor them for their sacrifice, and that made by their families.

Their sacrifice is not made any more or less significant by the passing of a round number.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Yeah, what's the kill ratio ? Like 100 to 1 ?

That's 1,000 heroes there, and they have saved many more American lives. How long we been in Iraq ?

Look at 9-11 - - - - Didn't take more than a few hours for thousands dead - - -

Yes I'm sure their families would rather have a "dead hero" than a living father, husband, provider...
1,000 is just a stepping stone, by the time this "war" is over there will be many more "heros" to bury.

[itai195]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
In regards to the rest of the posters, I try to stay away from the death toll argument because I find many who oppose our actions in Iraq are all too quick to point the numbers out. Almost as if they long for tragedy to somehow affirm their mistaken political view.

I agree with you about avoiding the numbers, but I have to take issue with your belief that those who focus on the death toll 'almost' long for tragedy to affirm their views. Do you also believe some supporters of the WoT -- who frequently talk about the continued growth of terrorism, and of the US being attacked again -- long for tragedy to affirm their political views? Do you think that everyone in the US and Israel is for peace, or do some people long for tragedy because it justifies their hawkish political views? Just wondering.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Yeah, what's the kill ratio ? Like 100 to 1 ?

That's 1,000 heroes there, and they have saved many more American lives. How long we been in Iraq ?

Look at 9-11 - - - - Didn't take more than a few hours for thousands dead - - -

I'd really like to meet these Americans who were "saved."

I'm sure the families are so thankful that their son/daughter became a hero by dying alone on the hot desert sand of a far off country.
Glamorization of war is disgusting and pointless, and to call someone a "hero" for killing another human being only to later be killed themselves is just plain sick.

A person who chooses to preserve life will always be more heroic to me than someone who seeks to end it.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by UR-20:
I'd really like to meet these Americans who were "saved."

I'm sure the families are so thankful that their son/daughter became a hero by dying alone on the hot desert sand of a far off country.
Glamorization of war is disgusting and pointless, and to call someone a "hero" for killing another human being only to later be killed themselves is just plain sick.

A person who chooses to preserve life will always be more heroic to me than someone who seeks to end it.

Not all Americans who have lost their heroes in Iraq have fallen victim to enemy propaganda, such as that unfortunate, rambling mother in Fraudenheit 9-11.

Many are indeed proud and recognize why we fight. Many also are 100% pro Bush.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by UR-20:
I'd really like to meet these Americans who were "saved."

I'm sure the families are so thankful that their son/daughter became a hero by dying alone on the hot desert sand of a far off country.
Glamorization of war is disgusting and pointless, and to call someone a "hero" for killing another human being only to later be killed themselves is just plain sick.

A person who chooses to preserve life will always be more heroic to me than someone who seeks to end it.

You don't come from a "military background," do you?

Maury

[Beewee]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Many are indeed proud and recognize why we fight.

And why is that?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Beewee:
And why is that?

To root out islamic fundamentalism which breeds terrorism, clean up that sick region of the world, and defeat the terrorist goons which have declared a worldwide war upon us and many of our allies. That's my take on it.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by PacHead:
To root out islamic fundamentalism which breeds terrorism, clean up that sick region of the world, and defeat the terrorist goons which have declared a worldwide war upon us and many of our allies. That's my take on it.

So you want to wipe out the religion of Islam? People always assume that it is a religion that made people kill in the name of God or Allah.

Spanish Inquistions ring a bell, they believed that they were doing "God's work", Salem Witch trials same thing and yet we still have Christianity to this day. And as I recall we attacked first in Iraq, so who has declared war on whom?

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Beewee:
So you want to wipe out the religion of Islam?

Nope, just the fundamentalist, terror supporting wackos.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Nope, just the fundamentalist, terror supporting wackos.

Violence begets more violence.

And we can't win anyway, the American people (fickle as they are) will tire of this war eventually and demand that it end. We only like wars where there is a quick victory, and guerilla war is the longest form of warfare there is.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Violence begets more violence.

And we can't win anyway, the American people (fickle as they are) will tire of this war eventually and demand that it end. We only like wars where there is a quick victory, and guerilla war is the longest form of warfare there is.

That is exactly what our enemies think also.

Guess what, they are wrong. This is no little crappy Vietnam war or anything like that. You could not be more mistaken.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by PacHead:
That is exactly what our enemies think also.

Guess what, they are wrong. This is no little crappy Vietnam war or anything like that. You could not be more mistaken.

No, it will and is happening. You may be the only one in the US that is willing to "fight to the bitter end". Its not an opinion it is a fact. Vietnam was guerilla war, and we bombed and naplamed the sh*t out of them and we still with drew. Same thing is happening here, only difference is that we caused this mess, regardless, the more money we spend, the more lives that are lost, and the deeper in debt we go the more tired and frustrated our citizens become.

"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."

"When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength." -- Sun Tzu "The Art of War."