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dcolton · 11:59 AM

I found this to be interesting. I always hear the claim that Israeli soldiers have killed way more 'innocent' civillians than the Palestinian terrorists. Both sides point their fingers about the atrocities. Here are some stats:

All stats are from September 27, 2000 - May 1st 2004

Dead Palestinians - 2806
Dead Israeli's - 921

So what is that...approximately 3 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli in the region.
Not quite as drastic as some would want you to believe...but either way, at first glance...it does seem to point to Israel as being 'strong' handed. Either way, here is the breakdown. Form your own opinion

from:
http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

Zimphire · Sep 10, 2004, 11:54 AM

Yes numbers alone mean nothing. WHEN PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE as the image does. It becomes a bit more clear.

I'm saving that BMP.

dcolton · Sep 10, 2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes numbers alone mean nothing. WHEN PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE as the image does. It becomes a bit more clear.

I'm saving that BMP.

Should be a sticky for when Teliesan quotes his inflated numbers

Zimphire · Sep 10, 2004, 12:09 PM

dcolton · Sep 10, 2004, 12:17 PM

I would like to know what Logic, LBK and crew have to say about the numbers.

dcolton · Sep 10, 2004, 12:27 PM

Check out this database too. Pretty interesting. You can search for a specific attack, type of attack, location, etc.

Seems to be fairly unbiased as well

http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_pro...dentsearch.cfm

Here is a sad result searching for people killed in crossfire:

http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_pro...esttimeout=500

PacHead · Sep 10, 2004, 12:58 PM

I've seen similiar numbers/charts before, and this is why I always laugh when some pro-terror fanboy mentions some ridiculous numbers, as if they matter at all.

Who cares how many terrorists die ? Most of the dead palestinians (more than half) = terrorists or killed by their own, something that chart proves.

Who cares what the ratio is ? If it's 10,000 to 1 or 1,000,000 to 1 - - - - Kill all terrorists dead. The higher the ratio, the better, IMO.

macvillage.net · 04:02 PM

Why would you even bother posting stats from someone who isn't a 3rd party monitor?

This is like asking the Nazi's for holocaust statistics. They say it never happened.

Just shows your /slant/

May want to look at the source a little closer:

Just a few sniplets:

Board of
Directors

Shabtai Shavit Chairman, Board of Directors, former director of the Israeli Intelligence Agency (Mossad)

Uriel Reichman President of the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya

Aharon Scherf Former director of Israel�s Foreign Affairs Division and senior official in prime minister�s office

Staff

Executive
Team

Dr. Boaz Ganor - Executive Director
Tamar Matalon - Office Manager
Pnina Yarden - Translation & Editing
Educational
Outreach

Col. (res.) Jonathan (Yoni) Fighel - Educational Director
External
Relations

Jonathan Davis
Internet
Team

Yael Shahar - Director, Database and Internet Projects
Research
Team

Eitan Azani - Senior Researcher
Dr. Ely Karmon - Senior Researcher
Yael Preis-Shimshi - Researcher & Supervisor of Research Assistants
Advisory
Team

Adv. Dan Mirkin
Israel Sulganik
CPA Ronen Zavlic
Board of
Trustees

Avner Azulai
Executive Director, The Rich Foundation

Professor Amatzia Baram
University of Haifa and Georgetown University, Associate Professor of Middle East History, and former Chairman of Department of Middle East History, Haifa University, speciality: Iraq

]b\General (Ret.) Yanush Ben-Gal
Chairman of the Board of Directors, Israel Aircraft Industries [/b]

Ron Ben-Ishai
Military Correspondent, Israel Channel 1 TV

Colonel (Ret.) Eliezer Cohen
Captain, El Al Airlines

Amir Eli
Director General, Youth Aliya Institutions, the Jewish Agency

General (Ret.) Shlomo Gazit
Assistant Chairman, Center for Special Studies. Former Head of IDF Military Intelligence and co-ordinator of Government operations in the Administered Territories

Carmi Gillon
Israeli Ambassador to Denmark. Former Head of General Security Services

Dr. Amnon Goldberg
Partner in S. Horowitz & Co. Law Firm

Michael Gurdus
Israel Broadcasting Authority - Correspondent

Michael Kahanov
General Manager, Brinks (Israel) Ltd.

Professor Ariel Merari
Director, Political Violence Research Unit. Founder and Former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Crisis Management Unit, Israel Defense Forces

Dr. Yossi Olmert
Expert on Middle Eastern Affairs

Rafi Peled
Former Commissioner of Police

Brig. Gen. (Res.) Yigal Pressler
Former Advisor to the Prime Minister on Counter-Terrorism

Colonel (Ret.) Nahman Shai
Chairman, Israel Broadcasting Authority. Former IDF Spokesman

Zeev Schiff
Military Commentator, "Ha'aretz"

Gad Yaacobi
Chairman of the Board of Directors, Israel Electric Corporation

Major General (Ret.) Eli Zeira
Former Director of Military Intelligence, IDF
Research
Fellows

The list goes on

http://www.ict.org.il/institute/ict_people.htm

Perhaps next time cite the source

macvillage.net · Sep 10, 2004, 04:09 PM

Here's another fun page of \slant\ in the other direction:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Both worthless crap.

dcolton · Sep 10, 2004, 04:12 PM

i did cite the source

pay attention instead of hitting your nose with your knee

dcolton · Sep 10, 2004, 04:16 PM

and the numbers aren't that different. neither is the breakdown.

Taliesin · Sep 10, 2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Why would you even bother posting stats from someone who isn't a 3rd party monitor?

Damn, you beat me to it, just came back from investigating the site and found that page, which cites a Mossad-official as being one of the directors, and the site's mission to fight against terrorism. I mean quoting a stat from a site with a special political mission, puleaze.

Just validates the old saying, don't trust a statistic that you haven't faked yourself.

Taliesin

Nicko · Sep 10, 2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
I found this to be interesting. I always hear the claim that Israeli soldiers have killed way more 'innocent' civillians than the Palestinian terrorists. Both sides point their fingers about the atrocities. Here are some stats:

All stats are from September 27, 2000 - May 1st 2004

Dead Palestinians - 2806
Dead Israeli's - 921

So what is that...approximately 3 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli in the region.
Not quite as drastic as some would want you to believe...but either way, at first glance...it does seem to point to Israel as being 'strong' handed. Either way, here is the breakdown. Form your own opinion

from:
http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

So you are saying you condone murder. I wonder, do you approve of genocide (or more pc 'ethnic cleansing') as well?

PacHead · Sep 10, 2004, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Nicko:
So you are saying you condone murder. I wonder, do you approve of genocide (or more pc 'ethnic cleansing') as well?

I don't remember dcolton ever suggesting that he condones murder.

I condone and believe in killing/eliminating, and acting in self defense- - - - A bit different than murder.

macvillage.net · Sep 10, 2004, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
i did cite the source

pay attention instead of hitting your nose with your knee

No, you cited it as a simple link, not bothering to give any sort of mention to whom you were linking.

An acceptible 'citation' on the internet since the early 1990's would include something about the organization you link to. Since we are a global community. Someone in Japan may want to read this, but may not know about some small organization in the US for example.

You posted what even you knew was rather bogus data, as a statisical fact. That's not a citation by internet standards.

Originally posted by PacHead:

I condone and believe in killing/eliminating, and acting in self defense- - - - A bit different than murder.

Now this is a bit telling (and absolutely freaky).

Especially the 'eliminating'.

Now if I were attacked by a Black man on my way home from work. Would I be justified by going on a murderious rampage in a random black neighborhood, to eliminate them before it could happen again?

PacHead · Sep 10, 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

Now if I were attacked by a Black man on my way home from work. Would I be justified by going on a murderious rampage in a random black neighborhood, to eliminate them before it could happen again?

Why Yes of course !

Besides being a nazi stormtrooper, I am also a member of the KKk !

dcolton · Sep 12, 2004, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Nicko:
So you are saying you condone murder. I wonder, do you approve of genocide (or more pc 'ethnic cleansing') as well?

Where do you even get that idea from? Just knee jerking?

PacHead · Sep 12, 2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Where do you even get that idea from? Just knee jerking?

Obviously it is. The typical tactic of the left. Put words into other people's mouths, and then continue on some ridiculous rant, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or reality for that matter.

dcolton · Sep 12, 2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
No, you cited it as a simple link, not bothering to give any sort of mention to whom you were linking.

An acceptible 'citation' on the internet since the early 1990's would include something about the organization you link to. Since we are a global community. Someone in Japan may want to read this, but may not know about some small organization in the US for example.

You posted what even you knew was rather bogus data, as a statisical fact. That's not a citation by internet standards.

My God. What are you? I provided a link. If a person wants to more info, they can follow the link.

NOT TO MENTION THE FACT, WHO THE **** DO OU THINK YOU ARE? The one person who spouts out stats and spreads outright lies without any support whatsoever. COUNTLESS TIMES, i have asked you for a link to your psuedo-facts without avail.

Besides, I noticed you ignored the fact that the numbers are not that different if you took the time to look at them instead going on your anal rampage about citations when you NEVER provide sources YOURSELF!

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 11:18 AM

Bumping because it's relevant.

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Bumping because it's relevant.

Agreed. I wonder why the pro-palestinian side won't discuss it?

lil'babykitten · Sep 13, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Agreed. I wonder why the pro-palestinian side won't discuss it?

Because your source is, quite simply, sh1t.

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Because your source is, quite simply, sh1t.

What she said^^^

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 11:54 AM

Here are more statistics for you:

http://www.miftah.org/report.cfm

Now spin away and say the source isn't reliable......

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Because your source is, quite simply, sh1t.

Because? Others listed similar sources. They all said about the same thing.

Sorry to inform you.

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 11:56 AM

http://www.miftah.org/About.cfm

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Because your source is, quite simply, sh1t.

Is the source sh!t or the numbers sh!t?

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Is the source sh!t or the numbers sh!t?

Outside you binary world it can actually be both.

lil'babykitten · Sep 13, 2004, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://www.miftah.org/About.cfm

Yah, you see? You're willing to accept the Zionist records, but not the Palestinian. So how about we find a more neutral source of info

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Yah, you see? You're willing to accept the Zionist records, but not the Palestinian. So how about we find a more neutral source of info

Use the Red Crescent source?

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Use the Red Crescent source?

as i reckoned. numbers speak for themselves.

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
as i reckoned. numbers speak for themselves.

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Logic:

I asked if the Red Crescent numbers were acceptable. As I mentioned earlier, the numbers are relatively the same. You guys realize this and stay as far away from this topic as possible...why? I don't know. Perhaps the truth is beginning to seep in or you just don't have any excuse for the palestinaing murderer's

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Yah, you see? You're willing to accept the Zionist records, but not the Palestinian. So how about we find a more neutral source of info

Because the Zionist record closely matches most others.

lil'babykitten · Sep 13, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
I asked if the Red Crescent numbers were acceptable. As I mentioned earlier, the numbers are relatively the same. You guys realize this and stay as far away from this topic as possible...why? I don't know. Perhaps the truth is beginning to seep in or you just don't have any excuse for the palestinaing murderer's

I dunno who the Palestinaings are.

I'm avoiding most of the Palestinian and Muslim bashathon threads right now. Sick and tired of arguing over the same ol' ****. Might as well bang my head against a wall when talking to you guys anyway. Trying to avoid this forum all together, but the addiction is a terrible thing.

No source will demonstrate any other than the fact that there is a disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties to Israeli. Some will try and close the gap, others will try and widen it, both for their political agendas.

That's all I got to say about that.

Bye bye now.

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I'm avoiding most of the Palestinian and Muslim bashathon threads right now. Sick and tired of arguing over the same ol' ****. Might as well bang my head against a wall when talking to you guys anyway. Trying to avoid this forum all together, but the addiction is a terrible thing.

No source will demonstrate any other than the fact that there is a disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties to Israeli. Some will try and close the gap, others will try and widen it, both for their political agendas.

That's all I got to say about that.

Bye bye now.

What she said ^^^

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 02:47 PM

Like the statistics show, the amount isn't always the important thing in this case. Who, what, when and where also play into it.

The number just shows who has more power.

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I dunno who the Palestinaings are.

I'm avoiding most of the Palestinian and Muslim bashathon threads right now. Sick and tired of arguing over the same ol' ****. Might as well bang my head against a wall when talking to you guys anyway. Trying to avoid this forum all together, but the addiction is a terrible thing.

No source will demonstrate any other than the fact that there is a disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties to Israeli. Some will try and close the gap, others will try and widen it, both for their political agendas.

That's all I got to say about that.

Bye bye now.

Sounds like an excuse to me! But since the pro-palestinian side can't refute the fact that these numbers are accurate and mirror that of your links, I will take it as truth.

PacHead · Sep 13, 2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
I will take it as truth.

Me too.

dcolton · Sep 13, 2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
Me too.

SO everyone doesn't have to scroll up everytime

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 03:06 PM

Too bad it doesn't fit in a sig.

Wiskedjak · Sep 13, 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Is the source sh!t or the numbers sh!t?

The problem is that your source doesn't reference their source for their numbers. It's very easy for anyone on both sides to simply make up numbers and post them to the 'Net. Unfortunately, without sources for ICT's numbers, the only thing we can talk about in this thread is the validity of those numbers.

Just because someone says something that you agree with doesn't make it true.

swrate · Sep 13, 2004, 05:14 PM

numbers and files rarely seem drastic,
it's when death hits you close that you realize the horror.

yes, see for yourself how the numbers change, and not for the best, as debated often before by logic, taliesin,

http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Casualties.asp

Wiskedjak · Sep 13, 2004, 05:17 PM

Is there anywhere that has an objective tally of the casualties from this conflict?

lil'babykitten · Sep 13, 2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Is there anywhere that has an objective tally of the casualties from this conflict?

Not that I'm aware. Perhaps there should be some kind of official neutral body, if that is even possible. But regardless, what relevance does this have to the conflict? It doesn't solve anything, it just highlights the sadness of it all.

CreepingDeth · Sep 13, 2004, 05:32 PM

Why are they "Zionist?"

Who the Hell brought the Matrix in to this?!

But seriously, why is that?

Logic · Sep 13, 2004, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Why are they "Zionist?"

Who the Hell brought the Matrix in to this?!

But seriously, why is that?

So young so ignorant......

Here you go

Zimphire · Sep 13, 2004, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Logic:
So young so ignorant......

Here you go

A note the CD. Ignore anything wikipedia says.

BTW Logic, he was being sarcastic.

CreepingDeth · Sep 13, 2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A note the CD. Ignore anything wikipedia says.

BTW Logic, he was being sarcastic.

Seen em before.
Sarcastic? Me?
Actually, I wanted to know why they don't just call them Israelis or something. Israel supporters?
Seriously, what's the reason? I know you're all anti-Israel and stuff, but I still don't understand it.
Keep your bs sites.

lil'babykitten · Sep 13, 2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Seen em before.
Sarcastic? Me?
Actually, I wanted to know why they don't just call them Israelis or something. Israel supporters?
Seriously, what's the reason? I know you're all anti-Israel and stuff, but I still don't understand it.
Keep your bs sites.

You ask a question, someone gives you an answer and you reject it. Go and look it up on google for god's sake! Everyone knows what Zionism is. You really shouldn't be entering any threads about this issue if you don't even know what it is.

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...m/zionism.html

^ FROM THE JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY! Is that Jewish enough for you people?