[zen jihad]

Is this really about child/women exploitation, or just another excuse for the US to go after another nation, or just revenge at at Chavez winning the election? My oh my does Bush have has his work cut out for him, how many nations does he plan on terrorising in the name of 'American Freedoms'? Dirty tricks once more on the international arena.

http://www.atsnn.com/story/79305.html

[E's Lil Theorem]

I found this amusing: http://www.gregpalast.com/images/Chavez-5H.jpg

White House spokesman on Chavez: "just because you win a majority of the vote doesn't make your government legitimate."

[MacGorilla]

White House spokesman on Chavez: "just because you win a majority of the vote doesn't make your government legitimate."

Ha !

What is it with our obsession with Chavez? Is it the fact he is popular among the poor for his sweeping social reforms or it because he's buddy-buddy with Castro?

[Axo1ot1]

Is Castro a monster, or a man between a rock and a hard place? Is Chavez any different?

[OldManMac]

Doesn't Venezuela have a lot of oil? Hmmmm. Maybe we'll have to put Iran on the back burner for a while.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Doesn't Venezuela have a lot of oil? Hmmmm. Maybe we'll have to put Iran on the back burner for a while.

Don't be ridiculous, Karl. Venezuela doesn't have any Weapons of Mass Destruction Program Related Activities.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Krusty:
Don't be ridiculous, Karl. Venezuela doesn't have any Weapons of Mass Destruction Program Related Activities.

We just haven't heard about them yet. Let me tell you a little secret; It's the October surprise! I have that on the authority of a friend of a relative of a White House janitor.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by KarlG:
We just haven't heard about them yet. Let me tell you a little secret; It's the October surprise! I have that on the authority of a friend of a relative of a White House janitor.

Isn't that the guy who is deep throat...OOOOOPS

[chris v]

Ahh, the hypocrisy of Realpolitik. Do we want other nations to have Democracy and Freedom, or do we just want other countries to have Laissez Faire Capitalistic economic systems, closely aligned with American corporations and arms suppliers?

[Spoogepieces]

Apparently you guys think trafficing in women and children is OK.

[realitybath]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Apparently you guys think trafficing in women and children is OK.

Apparently you have a low level of comprehension.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by realitybath:
Apparently you have a low level of comprehension.

I think not.

Conspiracy theory +1, PC +1, IBTL.

Venezuela Has been hit with a slap by the Bush Administration for its alleged role in the international trafficking of children and women for sexual exploitation. A decision which was announced in a White House memorandum to Secretary of State Colin Powell according to the following news article..

[lil'babykitten]

Seems like the Bush administration is still pissed at Chavez for calling Bush an asshole.

CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez called President Bush an "asshole" on Sunday for meddling, and vowed never to quit office like his Haitian counterpart as troops battled with opposition protesters demanding a recall referendum against him.

Chavez, who often says the U.S. is backing opposition efforts to topple his leftist government, accused Bush of heeding advice from "imperialist" aides to support a brief 2002 coup against him.

"He was an asshole to believe them," Chavez roared at a huge rally of supporters in Caracas.

[zen jihad]

When can we see sanctions put on various African countries for human trafficking? Or how about drug exports? Or countles other nefarious actions? In fact, if one reads the Venezuelan answer to these accusations, it would seem that Bush's latest move has very little to do with such kind human gestures, ie. preventing abuse of women and children.

[Logic]

From US State Department:

Tier 2 : Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the Act’s minimum standards but are making significant efforts to bring themselves into compliance with those standards.

Tier 3 : Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so



Tier three:
Belize
Dominican Rep. Kazakhstan
Suriname
Bosnia & Herzegovnia
Georgia
Liberia
Turkey
Burma
Greece
North Korea
Uzbekistan
Cuba
Haiti
Sudan

Source
Venezuela is in Tier 2 along with nations like Israel, Canada, Costa Rica(CotW), Kuwait, Finland, Japan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, . Does anyone know about what sanctions are in place against these nations? Both the three Tiers and the 2nd tiers.

Here's what the State Department has to say about Venezuela.

VENEZUELA (Tier 2)

Venezuela is a destination, transit, and source country for trafficking in women and children for sexual exploitation. Women are trafficked to Venezuela from Colombia, Brazil, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Peru and Cuba. Venezuelan women and girls are trafficked internally from rural to urban areas and internationally to Spain, Portugal and the United States. Children are trafficked internally for labor and sexual exploitation. Some undocumented residents in Venezuela from Colombia, Ecuador and Peru fall victim to traffickers. Because of its lax border controls, illegal migrants transit Venezuela; some of these migrants may be trafficked.

The Government of Venezuela does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so, despite limited resources. The government’s ability to address trafficking is uniquely hindered by the country’s current political and economic situation. Many officials are only slowly recognizing the nature of the trafficking problem. Some government offices -- such as the National Institute for Women -- are institutionally capable of responding to trafficking, but have not focused heavily on this issue. By committing more resources to the investigation and prosecution of trafficking cases, cooperating with NGOs to widen the understanding of the issue, and addressing trafficking-related corruption, the government can make progress in combating trafficking in persons.

Prevention
The government’s National Institute for Women (called “Inamujer”) runs a toll-free telephone hotline in which counselors are on standby to advise women in distress, but has not conducted any specific outreach or anti-trafficking information campaigns to make this resource more widely known. NGOs active in combating trafficking seek opportunities to cooperate with the government in developing a national plan. In prevention efforts not specific to trafficking, the government provides some support to prevent violence against women and increase women’s participation in the economy.

Prosecution
Venezuela has no comprehensive law to address trafficking. The Organic Law to Protect Children and Adolescents could be used to prosecute traffickers of minors, but there is no information on any such prosecutions. In 2002, the Attorney General planned to increase significantly the number of prosecutors working on immigration matters, but budget cuts stymied this effort. Venezuela does not adequately monitor its borders. Corruption is a problem; some officials are accused of facilitating the illegal movement of people.

Protection
The Venezuelan legal system has good intentions with regard to the protection of women and children, but specific resources committed to combat trafficking are limited. Inamujer has opened three emergency shelters to help battered women, which include trafficking victims. Women sheltered under the aegis of Inamujer have recourse to legal services; however, victims are not specifically encouraged to pursue legal action against traffickers and there is no information on any such cases. Foreign victims are not treated as criminals and their rights are theoretically respected; however, the government makes no special efforts to determine who is a victim and some may be deported as illegal migrants. Venezuelan diplomatic officials are instructed to give consular assistance to their nationals in need overseas, but the government does not generally provide specialized training on trafficking

Does this sound bad enough to put sanctions in place?

[PacHead]

Venezvuala today, another great example that socialist lefties will run their country into the ground every single time. For a nation with so much oil, one would have to be a total moron, or just perhaps a loony socialist fool, to be able to totally ruin that economy. The election there was most likely rigged, and Chavez is also good buddies with Castro. Perhaps he'll blow his brains out with a gold plated AK-47 also, like somebody else did. Gold plated AK-47's seem to be all the rage with various loony, evil people across the globe, from Chile to Iraq.

[Logic]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Venezvuala today, another great example that socialist lefties will run their country into the ground every single time. For a nation with so much oil, one would have to be a total moron, or just perhaps a loony socialist fool, to be able to totally ruin that economy. The election there was most likely rigged, and Chavez is also good buddies with Castro. Perhaps he'll blow his brains out with a gold plated AK-47 also, like somebody else did. Gold plated AK-47's seem to be all the rage with various loony, evil people across the globe, from Chile to Iraq.

Of course. Can't debate the issue at hand, go into typical rant mode that highlights your ignorance.

Thanks for playing.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Logic:
Of course. Can't debate the issue at hand, go into typical rant mode that highlights your ignorance.

Thanks for playing.

Did you see me insulting you in this thread or calling you ignorant ?

Watch it buddy, or I just might grant you a membership also.

[Logic]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Did you see me insulting you in this thread or calling you ignorant ?

Watch it buddy, or I just might grant you a membership also.

Well you can't really do that without lying. But that wouldn't really be beneath you would it?

I'm done with you until you try to stay on topic.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Logic:
Well you can't really do that without lying. But that wouldn't really be beneath you would it?

I'm done with you until you try to stay on topic.

I have not lied about anything.

[chris v]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Venezvuala today, another great example that socialist lefties will run their country into the ground every single time. For a nation with so much oil, one would have to be a total moron, or just perhaps a loony socialist fool, to be able to totally ruin that economy. The election there was most likely rigged, and Chavez is also good buddies with Castro. Perhaps he'll blow his brains out with a gold plated AK-47 also, like somebody else did. Gold plated AK-47's seem to be all the rage with various loony, evil people across the globe, from Chile to Iraq.

1. The socialist lefties were elected in a free and fair election, and recently withstood a recall in another free and fair election. The elections were qualified by intl. observers.

2. Columbia is a far worse mess-- really pretty much a basket case-- as far as human rights are concerned. But the government there receives billions in military aid from the US.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by PacHead:
The election there was most likely rigged....

LOL! The only attempted election rigging that occurred, was by the opposition - which got it's resources and funding from the US government. It failed. Chavez won and the US is pissed because they didn't get what they wanted. Cry me a river.

I mean, GOD FORBID any government from looking after the poorer parts of its population!

[realitybath]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
I think not.

Conspiracy theory +1, PC +1, IBTL. ..<quote first paragraph of the article>

HAHAAHA! Classic! Thanks for quoting the first paragraph from the article, i never saw it. Its so simple now and i've completely converted to your point of view.

this site has some strange people man.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Apparently you guys think trafficing in women and children is OK.

Shhhh stop mentioning reality. They want to spin it how they want to spin it. Don't bring up facts into this.

You can win with these folks Spooge. Bush goes to help the Iraqi people and they scream "WHY ISN'T HE TRYING TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE BEING OPPRESSED"

Bush tries to by not supporting a country that sexually exploits women and children and they cry "HE IS TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH!" and other left wing silliness and excuses.

And they wonder why the left is failing in this country. People can see right through their lame excuses.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Shhhh stop mentioning reality. They want to spin it how they want to spin it. Don't bring up facts into this.

You can win with these folks Spooge. Bush goes to help the Iraqi people and they scream "WHY ISN'T HE TRYING TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE BEING OPPRESSED"

Bush tries to by not supporting a country that sexually exploits women and children and they cry "HE IS TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH!" and other left wing silliness and excuses.

And they wonder why the left is failing in this country. People can see right through their lame excuses.

No, the problem here is cherry-picking countries for sanctions, based on their economic policies. You'll note a list of other countries with which Venezuela is apparently trafficking. Why aren't those countries on the list?

Besides, is the actual government of Venezuela doing this trafficking? It certainly doesn't say that in the linked article. The Columbian government has long been colluding with paramilitary groups who traffic in kidnapping and cocaine, yet we support them, because they're fighting the commies who traffic in kidnapping and cocaine.

If we're going to do something meaningful about Central/South America, let it be done in an even-handed way that supports real social justice, and not just our corporate economic interests.

[Zimphire]

"If they are going to do something, it better be how I want them to do it. "

That wasn't really meant to belittle you, but just putting things into perspective.

Them going after ANY gov that is doing such a thing is a good thing. No matter WHAT they do there will be people like you complaining that they either.

1. Need to do more and quick!!!11
2. Need to do it elsewhere. AND QUICK!!!1
3. Just need to keep to themselves (Until we want them to do something for us on our own free accord and political agenda)

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Bush tries to by not supporting a country that sexually exploits women and children and they cry "HE IS TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH!" and other left wing silliness and excuses.

Not supporting countries that don't do enough again human trafficking is a good idea and I understand that the USA has a certain historic responsibility in this regard. Good.

USA defines standards on how to fight human trafficking. Good.

USA ranks countries by these standards and asks them improve their efforts. Good.

USA punishes a country that ranks somewhere in the middle. Huh?

Don't you think it's a valid question why Venezuela gets these sanctions and countries that ranked worse do not?

[Zimphire]

TETENAL what I am saying is, it doesn't matter if you feel other countries are worse off and need the US to come in.

Who else is doing anything? Why must the US be the one that does it all?

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
TETENAL what I am saying is, it doesn't matter if you feel other countries are worse off and need the US to come in.

I don't feel other countries are worse off (I have no knowledge about that). The US feels that other countries are worse off.

So why punish a country that ranks in the middle?

Obviously there must be other - additional - reasons. It should be valid to ask for these reasons.

Don't you question your government?

[Zimphire]

Of course I question my government.

I don't however automatically assume it's a conspiracy and try my best to come up with a ulterior motive to suite my conspiracy agenda.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course I question my government.

Great. Please post their reply as soon in this thread as you get it.

Thanks a lot!

[Logic]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course I question my government.

I don't however automatically assume it's a conspiracy and try my best to come up with a ulterior motive to suite my conspiracy agenda.

So if you question your government tell me this. Why do you think that the US gov puts sanctions in place on a government not ranked, by the US government itself, as the worst offender?

And why does the US lower it's allies, Pakistan and Japan, from the worst category to the second. The same category as Venezuela is in?

And why does it not put sanctions in place against those nations and others that are in the same category as Venezuela?

[TETENAL]

Logic, give Zimphire some time.

From my experience with the German federal government it usually takes >8 weeks for them to answer questions.

Zimphire promised to ask and that's great. But we must understand that it will take some time.

[Logic]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Logic, give Zimphire some time.

From my experience with the German federal government it usually takes >8 weeks for them to answer questions.

Zimphire promised to ask and that's great. But we must understand that it will take some time.

True. Just thought he could add those questions to the list that he'll send his senator.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by chris v:
No, the problem here is cherry-picking countries for sanctions, based on their economic policies.

Why don't you run for President then YOU can decide which countries to sanction and which to not?

Perhaps if Chavez hadn't violated UN sanctions against Iraq and hadn't chosen to openly support Castro then maybe he wouldn't be on America's **** list right now.

Lastly, you people really crack me up. You oppose the invasion of Iraq, so, we use a diplomatic solution somewhere else and you idiots oppose using a diplomatic solution to fix a problem.

Anything to come up with some conspiracy theory just so you can oppose something decent that the administration is going.

Like I said, apparently you people support trafficing in women and children.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
So if you question your government tell me this. Why do you think that the US gov puts sanctions in place on a government not ranked, by the US government itself, as the worst offender?

And why does the US lower it's allies, Pakistan and Japan, from the worst category to the second. The same category as Venezuela is in?

And why does it not put sanctions in place against those nations and others that are in the same category as Venezuela?

Logic I am still reading up on this situation. I am not in the know about it enough right now to comment.

My points were the people that WERE knee-jerking while making baseless accusations.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
True. Just thought he could add those questions to the list that he'll send his senator.

My senator is a racist. I wouldn't send him anything.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Logic I am still reading up on this situation. I am not in the know about it enough right now to comment.

My points were the people that WERE knee-jerking while making baseless accusations.

Don't let these morons throw you off track. A report put out by the U.S. government in June stated that Venezuela had not met the minimum standards according to U.S. law with regards to doing something about the problem of exploiting women and children, the sex trade, or the trafficing of humans for sex or slavery.

[Zimphire]

They aren't throwing me off track. I usually just don't shoot off unless I am comfortable in the story. Still checking it out.

[Spoogepieces]

Oh, yeah, forgot: Logic conveniently listed 2003's report instead of the CURRENT report which is what the sanctions are based on

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2004/33187.htm

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Oh, yeah, forgot: Logic conveniently listed 2003's report instead of the CURRENT report which is what the sanctions are based on

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2004/33187.htm

I hadn't seen that report yet. Thanks for the link.

But the rest of my questions still stand.

[Spoogepieces]

Originally posted by Logic:
But the rest of my questions still stand.

What questions are those? Most of the countries in the Tier 3 list already are sanctioned in terms of trade and other categories. Some of the others that aren't already hit by existing sanctions are making enough minium progress to avoid the sanctions put on Venezuela. And Ecuador hasn't been on the list at all until this year so sanctions can't apply yet.

The minimum standard a country must meet to avoid sanctions is to have laws prohibiting human trafficking and punishment for those crimes. The nations have until the end of the year to put those laws into place.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Oh, yeah, forgot: Logic conveniently listed 2003's report instead of the CURRENT report which is what the sanctions are based on

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2004/33187.htm

Good. That clarifies that. Lock thread.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Why don't you run for President then YOU can decide which countries to sanction and which to not?

Perhaps if Chavez hadn't violated UN sanctions against Iraq and hadn't chosen to openly support Castro then maybe he wouldn't be on America's **** list right now.

Lastly, you people really crack me up. You oppose the invasion of Iraq, so, we use a diplomatic solution somewhere else and you idiots oppose using a diplomatic solution to fix a problem.

Anything to come up with some conspiracy theory just so you can oppose something decent that the administration is going.

Like I said, apparently you people support trafficing in women and children.

Where did I say I opposed a diplomatic solution? Try not to get your undies in a bundle and follow along here. I think it's good that the US concern itself with human trafficking. I find it suspect, however, that it only concerns itself with human trafficking in countries with leftist administrations, when the problem is obviously, blindingly so, worse in other places. I don't feel it's right to let Columbia off the hook just because they toe the economic line. I'd like to see us support human rights throughout South and Central America in an even-handed manner. Get it?

And be careful what you ask for-- I'm getting old enough to go into politics.

[OldManMac]

I have two questions; Who's going to fund this war on trafficking? Who's going to end the demand, which is the real problem?

[Spliffdaddy]

I mean, instead of focusing on the few dozen distributors of drugs - let's turn our attention to the millions of users.

Yeah, that'll work.



Who's gonna pay ?

who always picks up the tab? The USA.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I mean, instead of focusing on the few dozen distributors of drugs - let's turn our attention to the millions of users.

Yeah, that'll work.



Who's gonna pay ?

who always picks up the tab? The USA.

Being a nation building empire wannabe isn't free yaknow.

[Spliffdaddy]

As free as healthcare in Canada

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
As free as healthcare in Canada

As free as any given lunch.

[Logic]

hrw's report on last years report for those interested. Seems like little has changed.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/06/traffickingreport.htm