[dcolton]

WASHINGTON — A veteran who testified to John Kerry (search) about atrocities he committed in the Vietnam War (search) is now claiming that the Democratic presidential candidate coerced him to tell tales.

Steven Pitkin, an Army combat veteran, told FOX News that Kerry coached him and others to say they had witnessed war crimes, even after Pitkin told Kerry that he had not.

Will it ever end? I like Kerry less and less everyday.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132405,00.html

"Before they started the camera, they told me, 'We need you to speak about the atrocities that happened over there.' The whole company line that I initially came out and said, I was coached to say that over and over again," Pitkin said.

Kerry's former brother-in-law, David Thorne, attended that Winter Soldier investigation, in which more than 100 Vietnam veterans told anti-war activists that they had either committed or witnessed unspeakable war crimes. Thorne flatly denied Pitkin's charges.

"Kerry never forced anyone to testify to war crimes in any way. [Kerry] went to Winter Soldier to listen to what they had to say and to investigate for himself," Thorne said.

Kerry collected the testimony ahead of his appearance during a 1971 hearing in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on widespread atrocities against Vietnamese civilians. He has said the graphic testimony he gave was merely a repetition of testimony combat veterans told him

[Zimphire]

From another source

Kerry was (and remains) an effective spokesperson for his Leftist cadre. His anti-war protest period culminated with his 1971 congressional testimony, after which he told the press, "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions...."


Regarding the substance -- and source -- of Kerry's claims, Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest-ranking intelligence officer ever to defect from the Soviet bloc, says "KGB priority number one at that time was to damage American power, judgment, and credibility. ... As a spy chief and a general in the former Soviet satellite of Romania, I produced the very same vitriol Kerry repeated to the U.S. Congress almost word for word and planted it in leftist movements. KGB chairman Yuri Andropov managed our anti-Vietnam War operation. He often bragged about having damaged the U.S. foreign-policy consensus, poisoned domestic debate in the U.S., and built a credibility gap between America and European public opinion through our disinformation operations. Vietnam was, he once told me, 'our most significant success'."

[Wiskedjak]

When a liar lies about lying, which version of the "truth" are we to believe? The one that most closely fits our political agenda?

[Zimphire]

[angaq0k]

Will it ever end? I like Kerry less and less everyday.

Like you liked him from the start?

[Zimphire]

Well speaking for myself, I used to not have any reason to dislike Kerry. I never liked his policies. But he never bothered me.

Lately though..

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Will it ever end? I like Kerry less and less everyday.

When will these threads ever end!

I never knew you liked Kerry?

Another fox link...hehe

[Zimphire]

/me wonders what hoaxs that Fox has participated in to get such a horrible rep.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Agreed ... the question is where this "veteran who testified to John Kerry about atrocities he committed in the Vietnam War" will be spinning next.

[Zimphire]

I don't think he is spinning anything.

It's a known fact that that was the "buzz" going around in that sector of NAM vets. They repeat the same mantra almost exactly the same.

It's of no coincidence.

[Atomic Rooster]

Spin my arse!?

more like...

"flippity floppity"

- Al O'Franken

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
/me wonders what hoaxs that Fox has participated in to get such a horrible rep.

This?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm

[Krusty]

Stupid issue:

IF it were true, what would that mean ? That some guy was so spineless that he lied because someone (who had absolutely no power over him) told him to do so. Kerry was not his c/o nor his boss. He had no means by which to coerce this guy. If Zimph asks me to lie and I do it ..I'm responsible for the consequences .. not Zimph.

Still a pointless issue -- one guy makes the accusation, another denies it. Unless someone happened to make an audiotape, there is not .. and will never be .. and conclusive proof. Conservatives will tend to believe it because it makes a nice "fit" with the feelings they already have about Kerry.

I don't think he is spinning anything.

Of course you don't, Zimph .. he's attacking Kerry therefore his veracity is beyond question.

It's a known fact that that was the "buzz" going around in that sector of NAM vets. They repeat the same mantra almost exactly the same.

Know by whom ?? Any support for this statement ? Since when did you do a survey of this "sector" of Nam vets ? You weren't even alive when this "buzz" would have existed ... who told you that it did ??

It's of no coincidence.

.... said the guy who constantly accuses the left of conspiracy theory. Careful, I hear tinfoil will give your head a rash.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
This?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm

Fox news.

And Krusty, read the second post in this thread.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Fox news.

[Krusty]

I did read it ... unfortunately it wasn't sourced (just said "From another source" ). Lemme see the whole article in context and who wrote it before I accept it lock, stock, and barrel. Until then, it carries no more weight than this:

[sarcasm]
From somewhere (but its true, I assure you):

Anyone accusing Kerry of this is a big fat liar. I used to be the head of the Chinese secret service and, y'know, we'd write things ... almost word for word ... that this guy is saying against Kerry. That's our biggest policy over here in China, see ... we don't won't Kerry to win.

[/sarcasm]

You post has about as much weight as this unless you source it.

[Jim Paradise]

We all know that during Vietnam, everyone just had a good time and a cup of tea now and again. As if any atrocities actually occured. Who are these lunatics that think American soldiers were committing horrible acts?

[Troll]

Does anyone deny that US soldiers committed war crimes in Vietnam? One soldier potentially lying about what happens doesn't undo those crimes.

[OreoCookie]

I have heard some Vietnam stories myself (e. g. from the dad of my hostmom's best friend who took an arseful of friendly fire, some more from the dad of another American friend of mine), and although I cannot comment on the person that is talked about now, but what I heard from those two guys has given me the creeps.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Troll:
Does anyone deny that US soldiers committed war crimes in Vietnam? One soldier potentially lying about what happens doesn't undo those crimes.

]

Oh I am sure it happened. But it was being exaggerated. They acted like EVERYONE was doing it. And that simply wasn't true.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Oh I am sure it happened. But it was being exaggerated. They acted like EVERYONE was doing it. And that simply wasn't true.

You were there?

[Zimphire]

Nope, but I know tons of people who were that never committed any war crimes. According to him, Gore is a war criminal too!

It happened yes. But not in the scale Kerry lied about.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
***edit***

USArican soldiers are at times commanded to commit war crimes. That isn't their fault, rather their commanders' fault. They are the ones who suffer.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by voodoo:
USArican soldiers are at times commanded to commit war crimes. That isn't their fault, rather their commanders' fault. They are the ones who suffer.

What's with the "USArican thing?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
When will these threads ever end!

I never knew you liked Kerry?

Another fox link...hehe

This stuff is getting to be ridiculous. I'm always amused when people weren't there, but they know "tons of people." Forty men, weighing 200 pounds, make up "tons of people," and they provide only anecdotal evidence that is statiscally irrelevant.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
]

Oh I am sure it happened. But it was being exaggerated. They acted like EVERYONE was doing it. And that simply wasn't true.

I'm not sure either of us is qualified to say what is and isn't true. Neither of us was in Vietnam. Certainly, we both know that there were rather a lot of war crimes committed by Americans in Vietnam. It's probably the blackest hour for the US Army in terms of poor behaviour.

But even if only a single war crime was committed, then Kerry was doing his civil duty to bring it to the attention of the authorities. American laws were being broken in Vietnam. That cast a moral and legal duty on every soldier there to report the crimes. Some evidently found reporting criminal activity by their comrades to be unpatriotic but I hope most of us see that the opposite is in fact true.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Nope, but I know tons of people who were that never committed any war crimes. According to him, Gore is a war criminal too!

It happened yes. But not in the scale Kerry lied about.

Do these tonnes of people you know who were there that never committed any war crimes represent a randomly sampled cross-section of Vietnam verterans?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Will it ever end? I like Kerry less and less everyday.

You don't have to like him to vote for him; consider sites like http://www.johnkerryisa*********buti...rhimanyway.com (yes, that's a real site). There's a fairly large portion of Kerry's camp that loathes him but will vote for him solely for the sake of voting against Bush.

It's like I said before: the major themes of our two major political candidates can be summarized as follows:

Bush: I'm Bush!
Kerry: I'm not Bush!

The issues have become pretty much irrelevant; at this point, that's the only thing left.

[EDIT: Ack; stupid filters. For the URL I mentioned, replace the stars with the word do_uche_bag, underscores stripped]

[Troll]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The issues have become pretty much irrelevant; at this point, that's the only thing left.

Not sure how many of you are reading the European press but some are having a laugh, others are very concerned at the degenaration of your politics into mudslinging. It's quite unbelievable to me what many of you consider the issue to be. Two candidates have vastly different foreign policies, policies on Iraq, homosexuality and the economy and yet Americans are obsessed by personality issues. How bizarre that for many the election turns on whether the Army was correct in awarding medals to Kerry - that somehow his ability to act as President of the country is affected by a decision some Army bureaucrat took on whether to give him a medal or not.

I have yet to see George Bush actually say something concrete about which of the promises he made 4 years ago he has delivered on and what his policy going forward is and Kerry seems to spend most of his time defending himself against bizarre, irrelevant attacks on his person.

I sincerely hope that the rest of the democracies in the world maintain some dignity and don't stoop the levels that American politics has descended to.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Joshua:
What's with the "USArican thing?

Damn sight shorter than writing United States of American.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Damn sight shorter than writing United States of American.

Actually, I've been thinking that USArican comes out to "United States of Americarican". USAn might work better (and is shorter than writing USArican) ... though the intent behind USArican might be a little more immediately apparent.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Damn sight shorter than writing United States of American.

So you're a Republic of Icelandian? (RIian?)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Troll:
How bizarre that for many the election turns on whether the Army was correct in awarding medals to Kerry - that somehow his ability to act as President of the country is affected by a decision some Army bureaucrat took on whether to give him a medal or not.

To be fair, though, people on the Left are concerned about whether Bush dodged Vietnam by serving in the National Guard, and are then concerned whether Bush actually served in the National Guard. Put that way, it's obvious why people are concerned. However, if Kerry got his medals through deception, it's also obvious why people are concerned about his record.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Troll:
Not sure how many of you are reading the European press but some are having a laugh, others are very concerned at the degenaration of your politics into mudslinging. It's quite unbelievable to me what many of you consider the issue to be. Two candidates have vastly different foreign policies, policies on Iraq, homosexuality and the economy and yet Americans are obsessed by personality issues. How bizarre that for many the election turns on whether the Army was correct in awarding medals to Kerry - that somehow his ability to act as President of the country is affected by a decision some Army bureaucrat took on whether to give him a medal or not.

I have yet to see George Bush actually say something concrete about which of the promises he made 4 years ago he has delivered on and what his policy going forward is and Kerry seems to spend most of his time defending himself against bizarre, irrelevant attacks on his person.

I sincerely hope that the rest of the democracies in the world maintain some dignity and don't stoop the levels that American politics has descended to.

Best political forum post. Ever.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Actually, I've been thinking that USArican comes out to "United States of Americarican". USAn might work better (and is shorter than writing USArican) ... though the intent behind USArican might be a little more immediately apparent.

Interesting thought. So, USAn or USAmerican. Both are pretty fair. I started out with USAsian which I found very natural if one would think of the countries name as 'USA'. It confused many right-wingers on this forum who actually thought I was calling the Asian. CRASH_HARDDRIVE suggested USArican instead and since I respect his POV and he's from the US himself I thought that wouldn't be misunderstood so much. He was right, even is some of the most blinded rigthwing zealots thought I was insulting them (which couldn't be further from the truth) they did understand that USArican meant. USAn is as I said a fair suggestion. Perhaps for short, but I suspect it could confuse some people. May I suggest going for USAmerican and USAn for short?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Troll:
I'm not sure either of us is qualified to say what is and isn't true. Neither of us was in Vietnam.

Heh, if you ask many people that were there if it was true, and they say no, then yes I think I am qualified to answer that.

Certainly, we both know that there were rather a lot of war crimes committed by Americans in Vietnam. It's probably the blackest hour for the US Army in terms of poor behaviour.

Wait, you just said neither of us was qualified to say, now you are saying "we both know" so which is it? I am SURE there was crimes committed. What I am saying is, it wasn't as WIDESPREAD as Kerry made it up to be. He acted like EVERYONE had done such a thing there.

But even if only a single war crime was committed, then Kerry was doing his civil duty to bring it to the attention of the authorities. American laws were being broken in Vietnam. That cast a moral and legal duty on every soldier there to report the crimes. Some evidently found reporting criminal activity by their comrades to be unpatriotic but I hope most of us see that the opposite is in fact true.

Um if only ONE was committed Kerry wasn't doing his civil duty to knowingly exaggerate the claim.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Joshua:
So you're a Republic of Icelandian? (RIian?)

If you like

Although in your example the name of the country is Iceland, the long name of the country is Republic of Iceland which indicates the core is Iceland.

According to the CIA World Factbook conventional short name for you guys is United States but the conventional long name is United States of America. The core is United States so to be super duper correct you'd be a United Statesian.

Calling USAn an American is like calling an Icelander a Republican, no?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Joshua:
What's with the "USArican thing?

It's just a term used by ignorant people, or people that don't know any better.

First heard right here in the MacNN PL by voodoo.

It's of no coincidence.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by voodoo:
If you like

Although in your example the name of the country is Iceland, the long name of the country is Republic of Iceland which indicates the core is Iceland.

According to the CIA World Factbook conventional short name for you guys is United States but the conventional long name is United States of America. The core is United States so to be super duper correct you'd be a United Statesian.

Calling USAn an American is like calling an Icelander a Republican, no?

The CIA World Factbook also lists "American" under Nationality.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
****

you are projecting zimphire

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Joshua:
The CIA World Factbook also lists "American" under Nationality.

Yep, but for obvious geographical and linguistic reasons that is just silly.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
To be fair, though, people on the Left are concerned about whether Bush dodged Vietnam by serving in the National Guard, and are then concerned whether Bush actually served in the National Guard. Put that way, it's obvious why people are concerned. However, if Kerry got his medals through deception, it's also obvious why people are concerned about his record.

Precisely my point. "You're a liar." "No, you're a liar," is what this race has degenerated to. There are real issues here that everyone seems to ignore. Over 1,000 Americans have died in Iraq. What did they die for, where is Iraq going, what's the plan for the future. There's an issue. Should we amend the Constitution to make sure that homosexuals can't have the same rights as "normal" people. There's an issue. Should we keep borrowing money from the rest of the world and let our deficit grow. There's another one. Healthcare, elderly people, jobs, the economy, outsourcing. There seem to me to be so many real issues and what do we hear from the USA? Swiftboat veterans, Michael Moore, does he have an SUV, is he a flip flopper, is he a moron.

This is a trend if you ask me. It started before Clinton's second term, it certainly was an issue for Gore. As more and more obscene amounts of money are spent on presidential campaigns, so it seems they become less and less about issues and more and more about mud.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Yep, but for obvious geographical and linguistic reasons that is just silly.

Why?

Would you refuse to call an Indian and Indian because India is on the same subcontinent as Bangladesh?

This thoeory of yours is idiotic.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Why?

Would you refuse to call an Indian and Indian because India is on the same subcontinent as Bangladesh?

This thoeory of yours is idiotic.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Yep, but for obvious geographical and linguistic reasons that is just silly.

Do you ever wonder why many Americans view Europeans as condescending, bitter, irrelevant jerks?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Why?

Would you refuse to call an Indian and Indian because India is on the same subcontinent as Bangladesh?

This thoeory of yours is idiotic.

Don't show how stupid your ideas are in public - for your sake

India is a country not a continent. That is why they are called Indians, you know the people who live there!

That is also why Native Americans want to be called that not Indians. It seems USAmericans have had centuries of misnaming nations and groups of people. Don't worry it isn't too late to remidy that

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Joshua:
Do you ever wonder why many Americans view Europeans as condescending, bitter, irrelevant jerks?

The same reason many Europeans view people from the US as condescending, bitter, irrelevant jerks?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Joshua:
Do you ever wonder why many Americans view Europeans as condescending, bitter, irrelevant jerks?

I am just glad I have met nice Europeans elsewhere. Or I might think the same way by just being in this forum.

[voodoo]

I've never met an USAmericans that I didn't like, and I've met a few Bush supporters. In any case you people who are getting all riled up over this are being incredibly petty. I must be hitting a nerve

[Zimphire]

voodoo I don't think making fun of you for being petty is us getting riled up.