[dtriska]

I'm just wondering what my fellow Canucks think of the health accord from the recent First Ministers Conference.

[Jim Paradise]

I'm glad they focused more on waiting times than on the pharmacare plan that the Premiers were tossing about. Overall I'm surprised that they even reached an agreement that all parties seem happy about. It seems as though this is a really good step taken by the federal and provincial governments for the future of Canada's health care.

[AKcrab]

Will you fine Canadians invade Alaska?

Thanks.

[Mithras]

My wife and I both forfeited Canadian citizenship when we were children. Depending on how things go in November I think we'll be giving it serious reconsideration.

[Spliffdaddy]

I hear ya.

If Kerry wins we'll all be headed to Canada.

[deedar]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Will you fine Canadians invade Alaska?

Thanks.

You forgot to say please.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I hear ya.

If Kerry wins we'll all be headed to Canada.

C'mon spliffdaddy...you can do better than Canada!

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by dcolton:
C'mon spliffdaddy...you can do better than Canada!

Mexico? Maybe become a mariachi.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Mexico? Maybe become a mariachi.

I'm thinking a carribean island myself.

[Monique]

Whatever amount of money that will be thrown into this broken system it will not be repaired if they do not have better administrators. And I was disappointed that the enormous amount of mistakes done by health care workers were not discussed and nothing can't be done by anyone against a doctor that will kill a patient or make such a mistake that the person becomes disabled. No organization is on the side of the patients.

The equipment used in most hospitals in Canada is obsolete to the point that African countries are rejecting it.

Just look at the system as it is not as you think it is and it becomes clear to what needs to be done.

[deedar]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I hear ya.

If Kerry wins we'll all be headed to Canada.

Yet another reason to vote for Kerry!

[Atomic Rooster]

Damn the Canadians and their caring for one another!

Socialist, communist, fascist pigs ...you have forsaken us...

Pat Buchanan was right. You are the Soviet Kanuckistan.

You have to put all your money into the military and free the oppressed oil soaked countries...NOT into healthcare! Won't you soviet socialist republics ever get it?!!?

Your own people are not important enough to be benefactors of your own hard earned tax dollars...you must squander it...YOU HERE ME!!!??

Is there no hope?

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Damn the Canadians and their caring for one another!

Socialist, communist, fascist pigs ...you have forsaken us...

Pat Buchanan was right. You are the Soviet Kanuckistan.

You have to put all your money into the military and free the oppressed oil soaked countries...NOT into healthcare! Won't you soviet socialist republics ever get it?!!?

Your own people are not important enough to be benefactors of your own hard earned tax dollars...you must squander it...YOU HERE ME!!!??

Is there no hope?

Sure, let's take over 7% of the economy, make people put their names on a 6 month waiting list for a dentist, kill R & D, turn it into a bureaucracy, etc.
It's not the government's job to give Hillary-care to everyone.

Amendment X


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I think that basically says that the federal government cannot have a program for healthcare unless mentioned in the Constitution—not there, sorry.
Pay for your own damn healthcare.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I hear ya.

If Kerry wins we'll all be headed to Canada.

Please stay where you are.

I urge you.

S T A Y W H E R E Y O U A R E ! ! !

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Damn the Canadians and their caring for one another!

Socialist, communist, fascist pigs ...you have forsaken us...

Pat Buchanan was right. You are the Soviet Kanuckistan.

You have to put all your money into the military and free the oppressed oil soaked countries...NOT into healthcare! Won't you soviet socialist republics ever get it?!!?

Your own people are not important enough to be benefactors of your own hard earned tax dollars...you must squander it...YOU HERE ME!!!??

Is there no hope?

Frigging none.

Edited for clarity.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
F*****NG N*NE.

what

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
what

Same here. Curse with four letters starting with an n. To the Google man!

[angaq0k]

I meant there is none...


Let me edit that if that is really useful.

[DBursey]

Sure, let's take over 7% of the economy, make people put their names on a 6 month waiting list for a dentist, kill R & D, turn it into a bureaucracy, etc.

Dentistry isn't covered by medicare. Also, Canada's single payer system of 'socialized' medical insurance eliminates most of the bureaucratic redundancy inherent in the American model. Our affiliated system of university medical institutions spearheads some of the best R&D you'll find on the planet.

Our system has its flaws, many of which will hopefully be addressed by this new health accord. But to characterize the entire system as broken or inadequate does not reflect reality at all. Many of our hospitals and research facilities are world renowned.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I hear ya.

If Kerry wins we'll all be headed to Canada.

Wow... that doesn't even make sense.

You want Bush because you hate the idea of equality, safety, and security.

Then if Bush can't keep those things away from you... you move to canada to get it.

[dtriska]

Anyway, I think the deal is a good first step. It's going to take a few years for changes to be felt, and I'm sure there's going to be another showdown between the federal government and the provinces by then, but I'm hopeful. There are a lot of unused professionals out there who could make a great difference (think about the foreign doctors whose credentials aren't recognized, and who aren't able to participate in a qualifying process due to a lack of spots).

I have to mention, I have a reason to be optimistic. I'm one of the lucky Albertans who will now experience a reinvestment in social programs to the tune of billions of dollars.

I know I should ignore the off-topic posts in this thread, but I find it hard to do. For the record, I have never been on a waiting list for anything health-related. I have never had a problem finding a doctor, or a specialist for that matter. I also find it amazing that, on a GDP-basis, Canada actually spends less than the US on health care, yet our system is consistently ranked higher. But, whatever. If the anti-public health care people want to debate this, start another thread. This one is about the future of Canada's health care system, not whose system is better.

[chalk_outline]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Sure, let's take over 7% of the economy, make people put their names on a 6 month waiting list for a dentist, kill R & D, turn it into a bureaucracy, etc.
It's not the government's job to give Hillary-care to everyone.



I think that basically says that the federal government cannot have a program for healthcare unless mentioned in the Constitution—not there, sorry.
Pay for your own damn healthcare.

You do know we spend more of our GDP on healthcare than 7%.
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/charts/health...m/chapter1.pdf
And this is one of the lower estimates I have seen.

Can you show me the part of the constitution that makes me pay for highways?

A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged, it is the skin of a living thought... -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[johnny_hotrod]

Having lived in Canada for the last 20 years (from Scotland), I can say that our healthcare system is nothing to brag about. Wait times are high, standards are low, and the front line workers are horrible to deal with. My best friend works in a hospital moving patients and linen carts around and he gets paid $21/hour.

I work in an American company, and I have close relationships with people south of the border. They (who all have private coverage) don't have any of the issues that I have encountered, for a fraction of the cost.

It seems that there are two choices to make:
1) Everyone has low quality healthcare
2) Most people have high quality healthcare, some have nothing

I don't know why we can't combine the systems in Canada and have a private option available for things like MRI diagnosis and such.

[BoomStick]

Kerry isn't going to give you communists the welfare state you so desire regardless if he is elected.

There IS medical coverage for those who can't afford it.
There is also indegent care in many hospitals.

In Georgia we have PeachCare for the "poor". A low premium healthcare that is actually better than my State Merit through the school system where I work.

[DBursey]

Wait times are high, standards are low, and the front line workers are horrible to deal with.

Aside from the demonstrably incorrect (by most) standards comment, the rest is anecdotal. As is my experience this morning while accompanying my daughter for minor surgery which was scheduled last week. There was no wait, everyone from the doctors to the cafeteria staff were pleasant, polite and professional. All aspects of our visit met or exceeded my expectations. They even had the shiny machine that goes BING! (which was the most expensive one in the whole hospital!).

My daughter is fine.

[placebo1969]

Originally posted by DBursey:
Aside from the demonstrably incorrect (by most) standards comment, the rest is anecdotal. As is my experience this morning while accompanying my daughter for minor surgery which was scheduled last week. There was no wait, everyone from the doctors to the cafeteria staff were pleasant, polite and professional. All aspects of our visit met or exceeded my expectations. They even had the shiny machine that goes BING! (which was the most expensive one in the whole hospital!).

My daughter is fine.

Glad to hear about your daughter. Just out of curiosity, how long had she been waiting for the surgery? I've read some stats (unfortunately can't find them now) and showed relatively long wait times between diagnosis and actual surgery.

I guess the question is: Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

[Nicko]

Originally posted by placebo1969:

I guess the question is: Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

Well, if you're a Canuck, its a right.

[johnny_hotrod]

Originally posted by DBursey:
Aside from the demonstrably incorrect (by most) standards comment, the rest is anecdotal. As is my experience this morning while accompanying my daughter for minor surgery which was scheduled last week. There was no wait, everyone from the doctors to the cafeteria staff were pleasant, polite and professional. All aspects of our visit met or exceeded my expectations. They even had the shiny machine that goes BING! (which was the most expensive one in the whole hospital!).

My daughter is fine.

Echoing the previous poster, it is great to hear about your daughter doing good.

You're right that the post did not contain any hard numbers to back up my point. A quick google or search of any Canadian newspaper will turn up the numbers proving that Canada's healthcare system needs help, but not just financially. It makes no sense to me to drop ever increasing amounts of money into a broken system. Sure, for minor surgery, the wait time is minimal. What will you be saying when a family member breaks her hip? Or when a friend needs a cataract? These are things that the wait time averages up to 18 months for

The public system does have a lot of benefit and I'm not suggesting getting rid of it. I do think that Canada should at least *test* having some parts of the system open to private companies. I for one wouldn't mind paying additional money to make sure that I get my chance at the "shiny, beepy" machine in less than two years.

There are only three countries with 100% socialized healthcare in the world- the other two are North Korea and Cuba.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by placebo1969:
I guess the question is: Is healthcare a right or a privilege?

Privilege.
Nobody owes you anything. Your right is to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You have a right to take care of your own live, not have it controlled.

[tie]

Originally posted by dcolton:
I'm thinking a carribean island myself.

Heh, the latest thing is to "move" to the Virgin Islands, dropping your income tax to 3%. Of course you don't actually have to leave your current residence. You and Cheney (the master of tax evasion by offshoring) should look into it.

Back on topic, I think this Canadian plan will fall apart. There is a deal made every couple years supposedly securing the financials for the next ten years. This one won't last two years, either.

[dtriska]

Originally posted by johnny_hotrod:
Having lived in Canada for the last 20 years (from Scotland), I can say that our healthcare system is nothing to brag about. Wait times are high, standards are low, and the front line workers are horrible to deal with. My best friend works in a hospital moving patients and linen carts around and he gets paid $21/hour.

I work in an American company, and I have close relationships with people south of the border. They (who all have private coverage) don't have any of the issues that I have encountered, for a fraction of the cost.

It seems that there are two choices to make:
1) Everyone has low quality healthcare
2) Most people have high quality healthcare, some have nothing

I don't know why we can't combine the systems in Canada and have a private option available for things like MRI diagnosis and such.

What province do you live in?

Originally posted by johnny_hotrod:
You're right that the post did not contain any hard numbers to back up my point. A quick google or search of any Canadian newspaper will turn up the numbers proving that Canada's healthcare system needs help, but not just financially. It makes no sense to me to drop ever increasing amounts of money into a broken system. Sure, for minor surgery, the wait time is minimal. What will you be saying when a family member breaks her hip? Or when a friend needs a cataract? These are things that the wait time averages up to 18 months for

And, that's what this health accord is for: the reduction of waiting times for joint replacements, cataract surgery, cancer treatment, etc. That's why I'm interested in what people think. The deal is meant to be more than simply greater funding.

Originally posted by tie:
Back on topic, I think this Canadian plan will fall apart. There is a deal made every couple years supposedly securing the financials for the next ten years. This one won't last two years, either.

This is the first deal in a long time (that I remember) that contained such a long time horizon. All of the other deals were to appease the premiers' demands for more money, and not long-term reform of the system.

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Your right is to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Doesn't the US Constitution say life, liberty, and property? Pursuit of happiness is a Declaration of Independence thing. Well, that, and non-Americans don't care about the US Constitution, since it has no weight in a court of law elsewhere in the world.

[moki]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Damn the Canadians and their caring for one another!

Socialist, communist, fascist pigs ...you have forsaken us...

Pat Buchanan was right. You are the Soviet Kanuckistan.

You have to put all your money into the military and free the oppressed oil soaked countries...NOT into healthcare! Won't you soviet socialist republics ever get it?!!?

Your own people are not important enough to be benefactors of your own hard earned tax dollars...you must squander it...YOU HERE ME!!!??

Is there no hope?

Canada's health care system is not something I'd want my money spent on.

[DBursey]

The proof is in the pudding, Moki. 31 million Canadians all have access to quality healthcare. About the same number in the U.S. have no health coverage at all. Canadians per capita are healthier and live longer than their US counterparts. I have no doubt that our system of universal healthcare contributes significantly to that statistic.

Someone asked about the wait time for my daughter's surgery. Twelve days from scheduling to the surgery.

My mother fell and broke her hip in 1999, requiring hip replacement surgery. She waited less than three weeks to have the procedure done successfully in NL.

Perhaps Moki resents the successes of others. That's idle speculation on my part. But this talk of Canada's health care system as being dysfunctional or broken is patently false! The United States has chosen to direct its resources into the projection of overwhelming military power in the protection of its economic fiefdom. Canadians have chosen another path, placing greater emphasis on the health and well-being of its citizens. Should we be resented or rediculed for that? Apparently so, in some circles.

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by moki:
Canada's health care system is not something I'd want my money spent on.

And you don't have to so we are all happy.

[johnny_hotrod]

Originally posted by DBursey:
The proof is in the pudding, Moki. 31 million Canadians all have access to quality healthcare. About the same number in the U.S. have no health coverage at all. Canadians per capita are healthier and live longer than their US counterparts. I have no doubt that our system of universal healthcare contributes significantly to that statistic.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm. That's some good Anecdotal Pudding© that you are dishing out to us all. Here is an article I read this morning with a differing opinion/facts:


--
Despite boasts of Canada's superior healthcare system, heart attack patients might wish they were sick in the United States. That's because a new study suggests U.S. patients fare much better than their northern neighbours.

Based on a comparison of the health records of 23,105 U.S. and 2,898 Canadian heart attack patients in the 1990s, the study published in the next edition of Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association, concludes that Americans have a marked survival advantage.

"The five-year death rate was 19.6 per cent among U.S. patients and 21.4 per cent among Canadian patients," lead author Dr. Padma Kaul said in a statement.

Although that difference appears small, the researchers warn that, when taken in the context of the 75,000 Canadians who suffer heart attacks each year, it could mean a significant number of lives.

--
You can read ithere:

Sure, 31 million Canadians have health coverage, but 31 million of us have to suffer with inferior care than we could have.

Once again, I must echo that I am not for dumping the public healthcare system. I just don't understand why people think it is wrong for those who can pay to use alternate sources (and free up the public system).

[shmerek]

Originally posted by johnny_hotrod:
Mmmmmmmmmmmm. That's some good Anecdotal Pudding© that you are dishing out to us all. Here is an article I read this morning with a differing opinion/facts:


--
Despite boasts of Canada's superior healthcare system, heart attack patients might wish they were sick in the United States. That's because a new study suggests U.S. patients fare much better than their northern neighbours.

Based on a comparison of the health records of 23,105 U.S. and 2,898 Canadian heart attack patients in the 1990s, the study published in the next edition of Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association, concludes that Americans have a marked survival advantage.

"The five-year death rate was 19.6 per cent among U.S. patients and 21.4 per cent among Canadian patients," lead author Dr. Padma Kaul said in a statement.

Although that difference appears small, the researchers warn that, when taken in the context of the 75,000 Canadians who suffer heart attacks each year, it could mean a significant number of lives.

--
You can read ithere:

Sure, 31 million Canadians have health coverage, but 31 million of us have to suffer with inferior care than we could have.

Once again, I must echo that I am not for dumping the public healthcare system. I just don't understand why people think it is wrong for those who can pay to use alternate sources (and free up the public system).

The thing is I am sure public funds would end up in that private system. And those that can pay already do, they go to the US etc.

[3gg3]

Pay for your own damn healthcare. [/B]

TRANSLATION: I'm all right, Jack.

[DBursey]

Originally posted by johnny_hotrod:
Mmmmmmmmmmmm. That's some good Anecdotal Pudding© that you are dishing out to us all. Here is an article I read this morning with a differing opinion/facts:

"The five-year death rate was 19.6 per cent among U.S. patients and 21.4 per cent among Canadian patients," lead author Dr. Padma Kaul said in a statement.

The study to which your broken link story presumably alludes doesn't contradict what I've written here. It describes a study which suggests less than a two percent variance in survival rates for a specific malady. Another study might well suggest a 4% greater statistical chance of survival in Canada for malignant mesothelioma patients. To what end? Individual stats will bob and weave against one another without end.

Here's a bundling of (anecdotal!) survey info from the CDC and Statistics Canada:
First Joint Survey of Health in Canada and the United States Shows Both Countries Report High Level of Health