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Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 11:26 AM

I just opened Paris Match and there are more of Ghaith Abdul-Ahad's photographs of the slaughter of Iraqi children by American helicopters in Baghdad last week.

For those who haven't read this journalist's harrowing tale, go here. The author is a photographer for Getty Images and a lot of the photos he took are up there.

Do a search at Gettyimages.com for Ghaith+Abdul-Ahad and then look at the photos from 12 September. Continued on the second page. Seeing those dead kids and the photo of the guy reaching out to the photographer as he dies ... There's a photo of the photographer after the attack all bandaged up and he's wearing a T-Shirt saying "Life, Live, Love" ...

I've been watching the US media since this happened on Sunday and I haven't seen any reports about it. No scandal. Why is the American media covering this up? Do they consider it their patriotic duty to hide the commission of war crimes, the murder of 14 innocent civilians from the American people? WTF is going on with the American press?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 11:32 AM

Covering it up would be denying it happened. No one is doing that. You need to choose your words a bit better.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 11:34 AM

And it was already dicussed that these were suspiciously innocent civilians who must have the combined IQ of 12 for dancing in the streets at the sight of a destroyed US military vehicle.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 11:37 AM

Innocent! Innocent I tell ya!

thunderous_funker · Sep 17, 2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
And it was already dicussed that these were suspiciously innocent civilians who must have the combined IQ of 12 for dancing in the streets at the sight of a destroyed US military vehicle.

What does "suspiciously innocent" mean?

Aren't Iraqis supposed to dancing in the streets?

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
What does "suspiciously innocent" mean?

Aren't Iraqis supposed to dancing in the streets?

It means that they were up to no good to begin with. It means that when you are in a war zone...you don't dance in the streets celebrating the death of your enemy...it makes you look like the enemy who fights his battles hidden among the truly innocent Iraqi's.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
And it was already dicussed that these were suspiciously innocent civilians who must have the combined IQ of 12 for dancing in the streets at the sight of a destroyed US military vehicle.

Considering many of them were well under the age of 12, that's not surprising. Have you seen the photograph of the dead kid in the flower bed? Looks about 7 years old.

Besides, the stupidity of people to stand that close to the vehicle don't detract from the fact that it is a war crime to fire missiles into a burning military vehicle when it is clear that you are going to inflict civilian casualties. It is a massive war crime to actually target civilians which is what the Americans did in their repeated swoops of the area.

The guy who dies on camera is at least 20m away from the Bradley. The Al Arabiya journalist that was killed by high caliber bullets fired from the helicopters was at least that far away. People hiding with the journalist who took the photos from a concrete cube off the road were shot at in their hiding place far away from the Bradley. All of them died. These people weren't killed because they got burnt by a hot vehicle. They weren't killed by shrapnel from a missile fired into the Bradley which in itself would have been a war crime. They were systematically hunted down and murdered.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Troll:
Considering many of them were well under the age of 12, that's not surprising. Have you seen the photograph of the dead kid in the flower bed? Looks about 7 years old.

Besides, the stupidity of people to stand that close to the vehicle don't detract from the fact that it is a war crime to fire missiles into a burning military vehicle when it is clear that you are going to inflict civilian casualties. It is a massive war crime to actually target civilians which is what the Americans did in their repeated swoops of the area.

The guy who dies on camera is at least 20m away from the Bradley. The Al Arabiya journalist that was killed by high caliber bullets fired from the helicopters was at least that far away. People hiding with the journalist who took the photos from a concrete cube off the road were shot at in their hiding place far away from the Bradley. All of them died. These people weren't killed because they got burnt by a hot vehicle. They weren't killed by shrapnel from a missile fired into the Bradley which in itself would have been a war crime. They were systematically hunted down and murdered.

How many children died?

deedar · Sep 17, 2004, 11:48 AM

I don't recall seeing it in the American media - I first saw reports of it on the BBC. Our news is pretty manipulated over here. Why haven't they reported on it - I can't say. Maybe they think it is just too shocking for us, we weren't even readily allowed to see pictures of caskets returning.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
It means that they were up to no good to begin with. It means that when you are in a war zone...you don't dance in the streets celebrating the death of your enemy...it makes you look like the enemy who fights his battles hidden among the truly innocent Iraqi's.

Is the whole of Baghdad a war zone? What happened to major combat being over? There was no battle here! A car drove into the Bradley and exploded. The guys inside the Bradley all got out alive. WTF is the US Army's problem that it thinks the contents of that burning chunk of metal had more value than 14 unarmed civilians?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by deedar:
Our news is pretty manipulated over here.

Just ask Dan Rather.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Covering it up would be denying it happened. No one is doing that. You need to choose your words a bit better.

You don't know what cover up means evidently!

From Merriam Webster: a usually concerted effort to keep an illegal or unethical act or situation from being made public.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Troll:
Is the whole of Baghdad a war zone? What happened to major combat being over? There was no battle here! A car drove into the Bradley and exploded. The guys inside the Bradley all got out alive. WTF is the US Army's problem that it thinks the contents of that burning chunk of metal had more value than 14 unarmed civilians?

Explosion, smoke, helicopters, gun fire.

Quick...what do you do?

Run...Run...Run...

BRussell · 12:04 PM

There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. It might hurt there* guy Bush, I guess.

[edit] I mean "their," uh or is it "they're"

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by dcolton:
How many children died?

I don't know. There are pictures of at least 3 dead kids and the reporter seems to say that the kid with the Adidas cap in the photo above collapsed and died too. The reporter notes that after the first attack, 2 men went into the road to try to pick up a child whose leg had been blown off. The helicopters came back and killed the two men and the child. Those are the three you see in the picture above.

Does it really matter how many were children? Even if they were all adults, there's still no justification for the first missile, let alone coming back and killing people trying to evacuate the injured!

Shaddim · Sep 17, 2004, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by BRussell:
There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. It might hurt there guy Bush, I guess.

Yeah, Rather just loves him.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
Explosion, smoke, helicopters, gun fire.

Quick...what do you do?

Run...Run...Run...

Well, if you're a journalist, you might set up a safe distance from the burning vehicle and start recording an insert. If it's the US Airforce in the helicopters, they might decide to put a high caliber bullet through you though.

If you're a kid you might be standing around watching. You might be walking to the shop to get candy. The US Airforce might put a missile through you.

If you're a parent or a brother or just a concerned passer-by, you might see injured people lying in the road with pieces of their legs missing and you might want to save their lives by taking them to the hospital. The US Airforce might shoot you while you're picking up a dying kid.

If you're an ambulance, you might try to go and help a Reuters reporter. The US Airforce might continue attacking the area for 3 hours so the reporter dies of blood loss. Or they might blow up your ambulance.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
If you're a kid you might be standing around watching. You might be walking to the shop to get candy. The US Airforce might put a missile through you.

Or in this case, you might be dancing on the "graves" of the very people who are there to help you.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 12:06 PM

How the hell does this photographer keep any semblance of sanity? This is like the old "Bang Bang Club" in South Africa. Look at the entries for this guy on Gettyimages. If I'd photgraphed people dying in front of my lens and nearly died getting the photos, I'd be a complete wreck. There are photos that's he's taken all week in Iraq. How do they do it? I'd go insane, honestly.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Or in this case, you might be dancing on the "graves" of the very people who are there to help you. [/B]

What graves? The American soldiers all got out of the Bradley safely. Besides, I didn't see the Al Arabiya reporter doing any dancing!

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 12:10 PM

Troll that is why I used quotes...

Joshua · Sep 17, 2004, 12:21 PM

So, how carefully are the Iraqi insurgents following international war crime laws?

(As a side note, could you please refrain from posting images like that without some kind of warning? Many of us posting from work or school.)

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. It might hurt there* guy Bush, I guess.

[edit] I mean "their," uh or is it "they're"

BS. Watch the news much? Or are you one of those foreignors trying to tell us Americans about our own nation?

BRussell · Sep 17, 2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
BS. Watch the news much? Or are you one of those foreignors trying to tell us Americans about our own nation?

I am a foreigner - I live in Montana. But I do watch the news, and it's been ridiculously biased toward positive coverage of Bush and his policies, IMO.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 12:39 PM

Funny, I watch the same news and I see both sides of it.

yakkiebah · Sep 17, 2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Joshua:
So, how carefully are the Iraqi insurgents following international war crime laws?

I have another one to add: not as bad as Saddam.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
Well, if you're a journalist, you might set up a safe distance from the burning vehicle and start recording an insert. If it's the US Airforce in the helicopters, they might decide to put a high caliber bullet through you though.

If you're a kid you might be standing around watching. You might be walking to the shop to get candy. The US Airforce might put a missile through you.

If you're a parent or a brother or just a concerned passer-by, you might see injured people lying in the road with pieces of their legs missing and you might want to save their lives by taking them to the hospital. The US Airforce might shoot you while you're picking up a dying kid.

If you're an ambulance, you might try to go and help a Reuters reporter. The US Airforce might continue attacking the area for 3 hours so the reporter dies of blood loss. Or they might blow up your ambulance.

So if the United States is involved, you just throw the thought of COMMON SENSE out the window? In a war zone, where people die...the sound of conflict shouldn't be a magnet unless you are up to no good! Hell, If I hear gunshots in a non-warzone, I am not going to run to investigate it unless I plan to be part of that gunfight. But that is common sense and obviously doesn;'t apply to stupid Iraqi's and a dumb ass journalist.

Logic · Sep 17, 2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
I have another one to add: not as bad as Saddam.

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
I just opened Paris Match and there are more of Ghaith Abdul-Ahad's photographs of the slaughter of Iraqi children by American helicopters in Baghdad last week.

For those who haven't read this journalist's harrowing tale, go here. The author is a photographer for Getty Images and a lot of the photos he took are up there.

[img]

Do a search at Gettyimages.com for Ghaith+Abdul-Ahad and then look at the photos from 12 September. Continued on the second page. Seeing those dead kids and the photo of the guy reaching out to the photographer as he dies ... There's a photo of the photographer after the attack all bandaged up and he's wearing a T-Shirt saying "Life, Live, Love" ...

That's absolutely horrible. So sad.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
In a war zone,

WHAT FRIGGIN WAR ZONE? You go on and on about this being a war zone. Haifa Street on a Sunday is no more a war zone than the street you live on! People on Haifa Street are going to school, playing games, going to work, arriving home, leaving home, buying stuff in shops. It's a street in a city. It is not a war zone.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Troll that is why I used quotes...

Then what was the purpose of your post? What were you trying to say?

Joshua · Sep 17, 2004, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
WHAT FRIGGIN WAR ZONE? You go on and on about this being a war zone. Haifa Street on a Sunday is no more a war zone than the street you live on! People on Haifa Street are going to school, playing games, going to work, arriving home, leaving home, buying stuff in shops. It's a street in a city. It is not a war zone.

So the smoldering wreck of the Bradley was decorative?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by dcolton:
If I hear gunshots in a non-warzone, I am not going to run to investigate it unless I plan to be part of that gunfight.

Yeah.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Funny, I watch the same news and I see both sides of it.

Did any US network you watched show the Al Arabiya footage of their anchor being murdered?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
Did any US network you watched show the Al Arabiya footage of their anchor being murdered?

Strawman.

Brussel said this

"There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. "

I said I watch it and I see discussion of Iraq.

Not ONCE in said discussion between us did said footage come up.

Please stop doing this Troll.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Joshua:
So the smoldering wreck of the Bradley was decorative?

The Bradley was hit by a suicide bomber. You know, like a terrorist attack. When they attacked the WTC, did New Yorkers all run away or did they try to help the injured? Did some stand and gawk? Did some get cameras and start filming?

The American soldiers had been evacuated. There was no threat to American lives. Besides, that is completely irrelevant. Even if everyone that was killed was stupid to hang around, their murder was still a war crime.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:28 PM

Troll got any proof that they were trying to help? Sounds like a large STRETCH to me.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Strawman.

Brussel said this

"There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. "

I said I watch it and I see discussion of Iraq.

Not ONCE in said discussion between us did said footage come up.

Please stop doing this Troll.

It was an honest question. Did they? I was in Indonesia at the time. Every network showed it. I came back to France and every network here showed it. It was front page news in the UK. It's in Paris Match this week. I honestly want to know if you saw it in the US because it was impossible to avoid it wherever I've been this last week.

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Strawman.

Brussel said this

"There's virtually no discussion of Iraq in the US media any more. "

I said I watch it and I see discussion of Iraq.

Not ONCE in said discussion between us did said footage come up.

Please stop doing this Troll.

So US TV hasn't shown the footage. Did you look at the pictures Troll directed you to?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
It was an honest question. Did they? I was in Indonesia at the time. Every network showed it. I came back to France and every network here showed it. It was front page news in the UK. It's in Paris Match this week. I honestly want to know if you saw it in the US because it was impossible to avoid it wherever I've been this last week.

Well good then ask it within your own context. Don't try to attach it to what WE were talking about.

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
So US TV hasn't shown the footage. Did you look at the pictures Troll directed you to?

LBK you don't understand. I never said either way. I wasn't arguing that. Troll just threw up this strawman to deflect.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
WHAT FRIGGIN WAR ZONE? You go on and on about this being a war zone. Haifa Street on a Sunday is no more a war zone than the street you live on! People on Haifa Street are going to school, playing games, going to work, arriving home, leaving home, buying stuff in shops. It's a street in a city. It is not a war zone.

Iraq is a war zone. You are more than welcome to walk the streets of Bagdag if you wish...but I am betting you are a little smarter than rhat

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2004, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
LBK you don't understand. I never said either way. I wasn't arguing that. Troll just threw up this strawman to deflect.

I don't care. I'M asking you. Did you look at the pictures? Did they show the footage on US TV?

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I don't care. I'M asking you. Did you look at the pictures?

Of course I did!

Did they show the footage on US TV?

Not the two news programs I saw. But this isn't really "Big news"

They tend to only report "big news"

yakkiebah · Sep 17, 2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Troll got any proof that they were trying to help? Sounds like a large STRETCH to me.

Stay on topic, this isn't about the reasons why Iraq was invaded.

Oh wait you mean those Iraqi's? Yeah you're right, usually they just leave the wounded dying, it's their cultural thing, probably some muslim stuff. Bunch of weirdo's really...

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by yakkiebah:
Stay on topic, this isn't about the reasons why Iraq was invaded.

Whaaa? Either was my post.

Oh wait you mean those Iraqi's? Yeah you're right, usually they just leave the wounded dying, it's their cultural thing, probably some muslim stuff. Bunch of weirdo's really...

No, a lot of the time they string them up on bridges.

Troll · Sep 17, 2004, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Troll got any proof that they were trying to help? Sounds like a large STRETCH to me.

"Two men were dragging away an unconscious boy who had lost the lower half of one leg. A pool of blood and a creamy liquid formed beneath the stump on the pavement. His other leg was badly gashed.

I had been standing there taking pictures for two or three minutes when we heard the helicopters coming back. Everyone started running, and I didn't look back to see what was happening to the injured men. ...

I had just reached the corner of the cube when I heard two explosions, I felt hot air blast my face and something burning on my head. I crawled to the cube and hid behind it. Six of us were squeezed into a space less than two metres wide. Blood started dripping on my camera ... The helicopters wheeled overhead, and I realised that they were firing directly at us. I wanted to be invisible, I wanted to hide under the others.

As the helicopters moved a little further off, two of the men ran away to a nearby building
...

I looked at the middle of the street, where five injured men were still lying. Three of them were piled almost on top of each other; a boy wearing a white dishdasha lay a few metres away.

One of the three men piled together raised his head and looked around the empty streets with a look of astonishment on his face. He then looked at the boy in front of him, turned to the back and looked at the horizon again. Then he slowly started moving his head to the ground, rested his head on his arms and stretched his hands towards something that he could see. It was the guy who had been beating his chest earlier, trying to help his brother. He wanted help but no one helped. He was just there dying in front of me."

There's your proof. He went to help his brother whose leg had been severed by the first helicopter attack and the helicopters came back and killed him. Look at the photo.

lil'babykitten · Sep 17, 2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
But this isn't really "Big news"

They tend to only report "big news"

Oh of course. The murder of Iraqi civilians by US troops isn't big news.

dcolton · Sep 17, 2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
The Bradley was hit by a suicide bomber. You know, like a terrorist attack. When they attacked the WTC, did New Yorkers all run away or did they try to help the injured? Did some stand and gawk? Did some get cameras and start filming?

The American soldiers had been evacuated. There was no threat to American lives. Besides, that is completely irrelevant. Even if everyone that was killed was stupid to hang around, their murder was still a war crime.

No, I beg to differ. At any rate, lets do it this way...

We fight the war and you guys can cry about war crimes when the smoke is settled. For the Americans...let our militay do its job instead of bitching and complaining every time something negative happens. Unless, of course, you want to see even more Americans come home in body bags.

I don't get it, you bitch about too many American casualties, then you bitch about not enough troops. Now, you want to prevent American forces, the volunteers who put their lives on the line for YOU, from defending themselves. Just burn your flag and move to canada where you and wiskedjak can have a circle jerk while you chant 'give peace a chance'

Zimphire · Sep 17, 2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Troll:
"Two men were dragging away an unconscious boy who had lost the lower half of one leg. <snip>.

Oh! I thought you were implying they were trying to help the soldiers.