[Cody Dawg]

I think this is a GREAT thing if it is true: The Catholic Church has people petitioning and working towards excommunicating John Kerry.

Excommunicate John Kerry: Read here.



It's because he professes to be a staunch Catholic but does not take a stand against abortion.

[Logic]

On what does the Catholic church base it that abortion is heresy?

[mo]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I think this is a GREAT thing if it is true: The Catholic Church has people petitioning and working towards excommunicating John Kerry.

Excommunicate John Kerry: Read here.



It's because he professes to be a staunch Catholic but does not take a stand against abortion.

I don't think this goes far enough. He should be summoned to Rome and tortured, also.

[Luca Rescigno]

Yep, it's a good idea to excommunicate anyone who isn't a religious fanatic, just because they're in a high-profile position.

Jerk.

[Cody Dawg]

I think that John Kerry is going to lose the vote of Catholics in this country.

His wife offends the Jews because of her connections to anti-Israel groups/Hamas and now he has this.

It IS a big deal, believe it or not.

[TETENAL]

The Catholic church didn't excommunicate Hitler. I have my doubts it will waste a thought excommunicating Kerry.

[Mithras]

I'd like to see the following pro-choice Catholics excommunicated along with him:
* Tom Ridge (R)
* Rudolph Giuliani (R)
* Arnold Schwarzenegger (R)
* George Pataki (R)

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Mithras:
I'd like to see the following pro-choice Catholics excommunicated along with him:
* Tom Ridge (R)
* Rudolph Giuliani (R)
* Arnold Schwarzenegger (R)
* George Pataki (R)

Ok. Fine with me. *shrug*

[Logic]

MacNStein:

Do you know on what the Catholic church bases it's opinion on abortion?

[Cody Dawg]

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I think that John Kerry is going to lose the vote of Catholics in this country.

His wife offends the Jews because of her connections to anti-Israel groups/Hamas and now he has this.

It IS a big deal, believe it or not.

I doubt it would make him look so bad as it would the catholic church in many people's eyes.

[itai195]

I have to question their priorities when they forgive priests who molest little kids but want to excommunicate a pro-choice politician.

[Mithras]

Great, all agreed.
Fanatical losers can hijack the church, as long as they do so in a bipartisan spirit.

As xi_hyperon said, I think being excommunicated would make Kerry, Giuliani, Schwarzenegger, et al. heroes for moderate-minded people everywhere.

[constrictor]

God, though I don't pray or believe in you, I do have a long-harbored request: please kill the Pope. Thanks.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by itai195:
I have to question their priorities when they forgive priests who molest little kids but want to excommunicate a pro-choice politician.

I believe there is precedent for this, though. About a year ago there was a piece by a reputable news organization that said many biblical historians believe that Jesus himself molested young boys, who had sinned, as a means of retribution. That part of the bible has, of course, been stricken.

If we can forgive Jesus, why not priests?

[andi*pandi]

If the Catholic church excommunicated everyone who didn't follow dogma 100%, there'd be no one left to put money in the collection plate each week. They'd have to sell the rest of their churches to real estate developers, while Unitarian churches would be bursting at the seams.

Many people feel faith is a personal thing, and subject to one's own criteria. Many people don't feel faith is something that should be dictated to them by someone else, particularly those that don't even share the same religion.

And hey, if he's excommunicated and elected, that means the Pope won't be dictating public policy with puppet strings. </sarcasm, Kennedy conspiracy reference>

My guess is the groups starting these petitions are of the Mel-Gibson-Pre-VaticanII fringe.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
If the Catholic church excommunicated everyone who didn't follow dogma 100%, there'd be no one left to put money in the collection plate each week. They'd have to sell the rest of their churches to real estate developers, while Unitarian churches would be bursting at the seams.

Many people feel faith is a personal thing, and subject to one's own criteria. Many people don't feel faith is something that should be dictated to them by someone else, particularly those that don't even share the same religion.

And hey, if he's excommunicated and elected, that means the Pope won't be dictating public policy with puppet strings. </sarcasm, Kennedy conspiracy reference>

My guess is the groups starting these petitions are of the Mel-Gibson-Pre-VaticanII fringe.

Exactly. Next step will be to excommunicate all those "bad" Catholics who practice responsible sex and use condoms if they do not want children.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
MacNStein:

Do you know on what the Catholic church bases it's opinion on abortion?

I believe one of the Cardinal coucils passed a resolution condemning politicians who support abortion, and levied a penalty of excommunication on RC politicians who vote in favor of it. But, I'm not an RC, so I could be mistaken.

Maybe Undotwa can shed some light on this?

[Cody Dawg]

Mel Gibson's movie has made how many HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars?

I think that Kerry underestimates the Catholic vote: In 2001 there were 50 MILLION Catholics in the United States.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I believe one of the Cardinal coucils passed a resolution condemning politicians who support abortion, and levied a penalty of excommunication on RC politicians who vote in favor of it. But, I'm not an RC, so I could be mistaken.

Maybe Undotwa can shed some light on this?

I was more wondering on what the Catholic Church itself bases their opinion on abortion.

Do you know anything about that?

We've all heard that Catholics(and many others) think abortion is wrong, but I've never heard on what they base that. From the scriptures that is.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Mel Gibson's movie has made how many HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars?

I think that Kerry underestimates the Catholic vote: In 2001 there were 50 MILLION Catholics in the United States.

You think all of those Catholics are going to do what they're told, assuming they are told not to vote for Kerry. They're told not to use birth control, not to commit adultery, that they can't get divorced and countless other commands that they don't obey. What makes you think they're going to suddenly all start doing the same thing?

[Spliffdaddy]

If religion can turn people into terrorists and suicide bombers - I don't think it's much of a stretch for religion to make people vote against a Democrat.

[andi*pandi]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Mel Gibson's movie has made how many HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars?

I don't think the box office take of The Passion is indicative of the number of Catholics who believe in his flavor of Catholicism--I believe perhaps it is indicative of the number of Christians who wanted to see a movie about Christ and the number of non-Christians who were curious about the hubbub.

that said, he is not the typical Catholic.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If religion can turn people into terrorists and suicide bombers - I don't think it's much of a stretch for religion to make people vote against a Democrat.

Or to use religion to circumvent and override some of the very ideals that this country's government is founded upon.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Mel Gibson's movie has made how many HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars?

I think that Kerry underestimates the Catholic vote: In 2001 there were 50 MILLION Catholics in the United States.

Really? And you're assuming that they are all planning to vote for Bush, and are as on-the-fringe as the ones wanting to excommunicate Kerry?

Methinks the ones who are, would be voting for Bush regardless of Kerry's stance on abortion.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
I was more wondering on what the Catholic Church itself bases their opinion on abortion.

Do you know anything about that?

We've all heard that Catholics(and many others) think abortion is wrong, but I've never heard on what they base that. From the scriptures that is.

If it's any consolation, they feel the same way about capital punishment. However, since Bush isn't RC, they don't have any jurisdiction over him.

They don't base it on the scriptures directly, but then, they don't have to. Christianity isn't based soley on the bible, but on the views of the early church leaders and even on into today. Church tradition is just as important, according to the RC, as anything stated in scripture.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If religion can turn people into terrorists and suicide bombers - I don't think it's much of a stretch for religion to make people vote against a Democrat.

Ah, the all Muslims are terrorists argument.

It's not their religion that turns them into terrorists and suicide bombers but I can see why you'd prefer to believe that than to have to admit any of the other reasons for their discontent.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Troll:
Ah, the all Muslims are terrorists argument.

It's not their religion that turns them into terrorists and suicide bombers but I can see why you'd prefer to believe that than to have to admit any of the other reasons for their discontent.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. But some of them are terrorists.

The reasons for their discontent are obvious. I'll admit one of them: envy of the West.

[Troll]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Really? And you're assuming that they are all planning to vote for Bush, and are as on-the-fringe as the ones wanting to excommunicate Kerry?

Methinks the ones who are, would be voting for Bush regardless of Kerry's stance on abortion.

Don't you know that in Religious Nut Rummy a dry drunk with 2 DUI's trumps an Alter Boy who believes in the separation of church and state.

[Atomic Rooster]

The 'Catholic Church' is nothing but a front for child molesters.

F*CK THEM ASSHOLES!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
The 'Catholic Church' is nothing but a front for child molesters.

F*CK THEM ASSHOLES!

Glad you have something intelligent to contribute to the conversation. Take a minute to soak your head in a bucket of ice water... actually, take about 10 minutes, that should be enough...

[Mithras]

Why is abortion the all-or-nothing issue for you, Cody?
The Church opposes the death penalty, and all but openly opposed the Iraq war, for example. Yet I don't see you calling for the excommunication of pro-death penalty Catholics.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Not all Muslims are terrorists. But some of them are terrorists.

The reasons for their discontent are obvious. I'll admit one of them: envy of the West.

As long as you're arrogant enough to keep believing that that is a reason, they'll keep bombing you.

Oddly, the ones that perpetrated 9/11 ALREADY HAD all the advantages the West has to offer. They were living a good, content life in Germany and other places, getting a college education.

(Next you'll be claiming, of course, that the German standard of living in no way compares to the US standard, and that living here is all the more reason to be jealous. I'd enjoy reading your reply, but unfortunately, I don't have an internet connection in the mud hut I dwell in, here in Hamburg.)

Oh, btw: Not all Catholics are terrorists. But some of them are terrorists.

[itai195]

Is there a precedent for this level of political participation by churches in our country? Should we reconsider their tax-exempt status?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by itai195:
Is there a precedent for this level of political participation by churches in our country? Should we reconsider their tax-exempt status?

Yep, check out the RC church's involvement with JFK's election, very enlightening.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

Oh, btw: Not all Catholics are terrorists. But some of them are terrorists.

Been a long time since there was an IRA bombing, compare that to the Islamic extremists.

[itai195]

From the IRS federal tax code (churches are 501(c)(3) organizations):

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise tax.

It looks pretty clear cut to me. If Catholic churches are making public statements of opposition to Kerry, they have violated this provision and should have their tax-exempt status revoked.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Been a long time since there was an IRA bombing, compare that to the Islamic extremists.

Yes? I'm comparing...the IRA bombing stopped sometime after a POLITICAL peace process was started, but they'd been going on a LONG time before that...

Was there some sort of point you're making? Catholic terrorists of the past 150 years were less insane than Muslim terrorists of the present, because they stopped when their aims were taken seriously?

Or something?

[BRussell]

It might be relevant to bring in this article.

A Vatican official privy to discussions between Bush and Cardinal Angelo Sodano, secretary of state to Pope John Paul II, said Bush "complained that the U.S. bishops were not being vocal enough in supporting him on social issues like gay marriage and abortion."

The discussion took place June 4 during Bush's visit to the Vatican.

The Vatican official said that Bush, a Methodist, asked Sodano to "push the bishops to become more actively involved" in promoting those issues that are part of his social agenda.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yes? I'm comparing...the IRA bombing stopped sometime after a POLITICAL peace process was started, but they'd been going on a LONG time before that...

Was there some sort of point you're making? Catholic terrorists of the past 150 years were less insane than Muslim terrorists of the present, because they stopped when their aims were taken seriously?

Or something?

I've talked to a fellow I know in Sinn Fein, and he told me that the attacks on Afghanistan had more to do with the quietening of the IRA than anything else. There was a reason Blair jumped in with the US that quickly, and given our dedication to the WoT, if the IRA started flaring up again there'd be 10K US troops in N. Ireland so fast it would make a Leprechaun's head spin.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by itai195:
From the IRS federal tax code (churches are 501(c)(3) organizations):



It looks pretty clear cut to me. If Catholic churches are making public statements of opposition to Kerry, they have violated this provision and should have their tax-exempt status revoked.

Good deal. Call your congressman and lobby for that.

However, it looks to me that it relates more towards $ contributions, despite your "bolding" for emphasis.

[itai195]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Good deal. Call your congressman and lobby for that.

However, it looks to me that it relates more towards $ contributions, despite your "bolding" for emphasis.

It applies to verbal and written statements of endorsement or opposition as well. It's all so much hand-wringing though, it's never gonna happen... and people say we still respect the separation of church and state in this country

[Cody Dawg]

Why is abortion a big deal to me, you asked? (Mithras)

Because babies cannot defend themselves. They need the voices of people who belong to the culture of life to speak for them.

The one person in the world that is supposed to love and protect them is the person who ends their life.

That is just one of the reasons. There are many more.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I've talked to a fellow I know in Sinn Fein, and he told me that the attacks on Afghanistan had more to do with the quietening of the IRA than anything else. There was a reason Blair jumped in with the US that quickly, and given our dedication to the WoT, if the IRA started flaring up again there'd be 10K US troops in N. Ireland so fast it would make a Leprechaun's head spin.

You really believe that? The attacks by the IRA had mostly stopped before the war on Afghanistan.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:


You really believe that? The attacks by the IRA had mostly stopped before the war on Afghanistan.

It calmed them down and made them more agreeable to a peaceful solution... and stick with it. It's one thing to have Scotland Yard after you, it's quite another to have 10s of 1000s of foreign troops occupying your homeland.

[BRussell]

Yeah I'm sure the IRA thought the US might invade Ireland.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by itai195:
It looks pretty clear cut to me. If Catholic churches are making public statements of opposition to Kerry, they have violated this provision and should have their tax-exempt status revoked.

I don't think you could take away tax exempt status because the church expels an individual from its ranks for taking positions in contravention to that religion. Just because that individual is a political candidate doesn't mean that religion loses all First Amendment protections with respect to one of its members. Religions have th eright to self-police without the state telling them what to do. You are inferring that excommunicating someone is a political statement designed to influence the election. But that is an inference only. I don't believe that they have actually told anyone who to vote for.

On the other hand, I think a good argument could be made that Kerry has been doing a lot of politicking lately in various churches. For example, here

Kerry Courts Black Voters at Church StopsJohn Kerry Courts Black Voters, Speaks at Church Services With Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton

The Democratic presidential nominee attended two church services Sunday, instead of his usual one, worshipping first with Haitian Catholics and then with Baptists, where the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton tied his election to the civil rights struggle. . .

"We have an unfinished march in this nation," Kerry said at Friendship Missionary Baptist Church, as many congregants waved fans handed out by the campaign with his slogan, "Hope is on the way."

"Never again will a million African Americans be denied the right to exercise their vote in the United States of America," Kerry promised, referring to the disputed Florida recount in the 2000 presidential race. As he often does before black audiences, Kerry said he has a legal team that will aggressively respond to any allegations of disenfranchisement.

That's not a sermon, that's a stump speech, and he delivered it in a church that is tax exempt. If you look at the IRS pub you linked to here and scroll down you can see that the rules forbid that kind of partisan activity in churches.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Why is abortion a big deal to me, you asked? (Mithras)

Because babies cannot defend themselves. They need the voices of people who belong to the culture of life to speak for them.

If you can pick and choose between issues the Catholic Church cares about, why can't Rudy Giuliani and Arnold Schwarzenegger?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Yeah I'm sure the IRA thought the US might invade Ireland.

If there had been another rash of bombings and given the "climate" (with a little pushing from Blair) yeah, it could have happened... not to the scale of Afghanistan or Iraq, but to a lesser degree, yes.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Mithras:
If you can pick and choose between issues the Catholic Church cares about, why can't Rudy Giuliani and Arnold Schwarzenegger?

So, you're going to tell the RC who they can or can't excommunicate?