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djohnson · Oct 25, 2004, 02:35 PM

Since it seems like there is a fight everyday over our dependence on oil, how about some ideas on a renewable alternative to oil?

Logic · Oct 25, 2004, 02:39 PM

You could start by reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

Nicko · Oct 25, 2004, 02:40 PM

ride a bike.

BlueSky · Oct 25, 2004, 02:40 PM

chris v · Oct 25, 2004, 02:46 PM

There's a damn lot that can be done with coservation/efficiency, to start. I bet that roughly 1/3 of our electricity powers stuff that doesn't need to be on.

There's lots of waste that can be re-captured, too, like biomass from food production, and scrap from manufacturing.

All the alternatives have drawbacks, but if oil stays above $55.00 a barrel, solar might start to get attractive.

Nicko · Oct 25, 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by chris v:

All the alternatives have drawbacks, but if oil stays above $55.00 a barrel, solar might start to get attractive.

or even nuuuuuuclear

Toutgood · Oct 25, 2004, 02:53 PM

Obviously if we had our act together: if we could store waste properly and could be trusted operating our plants, Nuclear power would have to be a winner.

djohnson · Oct 25, 2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Obviously if we had our act together: if we could store waste properly and could be trusted operating our plants, Nuclear power would have to be a winner.

I like solar the best. Our house will be solar powered, once we build it.

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 02:54 PM

What I want to know is how the scam involving hybrid cars got started? What do most small hybrids get? 40-45MPG? Haven't we had non-hybrid cars that get 50+ MPG for over 15 years now (Metro, CRX, Civic HX, etc.)? So, not only do we use the same amount of fuel, but we have more big-ass batteries to dispose of down the road. Stupid.

mitchell_pgh · Oct 25, 2004, 03:13 PM

Off Shore Wind... I'm talking about monstrous wind turbines 7-9 miles offshore.

Hundreds of Thousands of them...

itai195 · Oct 25, 2004, 03:21 PM

There are non-hybrids that can get 60mpg in city driving, MacNStein? The ones you listed can't. The top seven most efficient vehicles are hybrids.

RAILhead · Oct 25, 2004, 03:33 PM

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
There are non-hybrids that can get 60mpg in city driving, MacNStein? The ones you listed can't. The top seven most efficient vehicles are hybrids.

The Geo Metro got 58MPG in 1999, which hybrids get better than that?

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by RAILhead:

Hell no, I'm afraid I'd fall off the damned thing!

itai195 · Oct 25, 2004, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
The Geo Metro got 58MPG in 1999, which hybrids get better than that?

I only see 41/47 for the 99 Metro on fueleconomy.gov. 58mpg is pretty good, but the Prius (60/51) and Insight (61/66) are better. Anyway, I'm done derailing

Toutgood · Oct 25, 2004, 04:08 PM

Most energy efficient form of transport know to man?

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
I only see 41/47 for the 99 Metro on fueleconomy.gov. 58mpg is pretty good, but the Prius (60/51) and Insight (61/66) are better. Anyway, I'm done derailing :d

Fair enough, I was trying to go by my memory, my mom had one and the thing got incredible mileage... was a piece of sh*t, but that's a different subject.

I'm just wondering if it's worth the added expense, waste (battery disposal), and handling (hybrids handle like sleds) to go with a hybrid over an efficient gas or diesel vehicle. Still seems like a scam, you'd think they'd be able to make the hybrids better (80+ MPG). THAT would make them worth it.

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Most energy efficient form of transport know to man?

Yeah, if you live in NYC of Hong Kong. I drive 30 miles to and from work each day... that'd be a hell of a bike ride.

gerbnl · Oct 25, 2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Bluesky:

Hmmm, why show a lubricant? It hardly qualifies as an energy sauce...

Toutgood · Oct 25, 2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Yeah, if you live in NYC of Hong Kong. I drive 30 miles to and from work each day... that'd be a hell of a bike ride.

Trains, buses, trams (better than we have now) would be the answer.

Cars are always going to be a problem - on the whole, for a society, it's an ineffecient means to move people around. Love cars? Me too, but that's not the point.

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Trains, buses, trams (better than we have now) would be the answer.

Cars are always going to be a problem - on the whole, for a society, it's an ineffecient means to move people around. Love cars? Me too, but that's not the point.

No, not in rural areas. No form of mass transportation would work around here.

olePigeon · Oct 25, 2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
What I want to know is how the scam involving hybrid cars got started? What do most small hybrids get? 40-45MPG? Haven't we had non-hybrid cars that get 50+ MPG for over 15 years now (Metro, CRX, Civic HX, etc.)?

Except that the majority of vehicles out there are SUVs and pickups getting 12 to 25 MPG.

So, not only do we use the same amount of fuel

In the past 15 years the population of the United States has grown over 50 million people. We use a sh*t load more fuel.

but we have more big-ass batteries to dispose of down the road.

The batteries used in today's electric vehicles are recyclable and/or organic, and are not thrown away. Fuel-cell batteries can work indefinitely, and never lose a charge. The problem comes when you recharge the battery, where does that power come from? Mostly nuclear and coal power plants.

Stupid.

F*cking idiot.

Toutgood · Oct 25, 2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, not in rural areas. No form of mass transportation would work around here.

Yeah, well you always have horseback...

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Except that the majority of vehicles out there are SUVs and pickups getting 12 to 25 MPG.

In the past 15 years the population of the United States has grown over 50 million people. We use a sh*t load more fuel.

The batteries used in today's electric vehicles are recyclable and/or organic, and are not thrown away. Fuel-cell batteries can work indefinitely, and never lose a charge. The problem comes when you recharge the battery, where does that power come from? Mostly nuclear and coal power plants.

I wasn't talking about SUVs, I was talking about economy cars. It's not like people who are looking at econo cars would buy an SUV.

I'm sure those "organic" "environment friendly" "recyclable" batteries will do quite well in a landfill (which is where they will be in 10-15 years).

On a side note, what's up with the namecalling? What, are you 12?

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Toutgood:
Yeah, well you always have horseback...

If there were a stable at work, I'd consider it.

angaq0k · Oct 25, 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Nicko:
or even nuuuuuuclear

We should re-brand that product.

How about NewKlear?

Can't see it! It's New! It's Klear! Yet Discreet and Powerful!

Mrjinglesusa · Oct 25, 2004, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Since it seems like there is a fight everyday over our dependence on oil, how about some ideas on a renewable alternative to oil?

Don't vote for Bush.

olePigeon · Oct 25, 2004, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I wasn't talking about SUVs, I was talking about economy cars. It's not like people who are looking at econo cars would buy an SUV.

The reality of it is that the majority of cars are still SUVs. Economy cars can get as fuel efficient as they want, it's not going to change consumer buying habits. Economy SUVs would be ideal, but everyone wants 500HP to get little Billy to soccer practice.

I'm sure those "organic" "environment friendly" "recyclable" batteries will do quite well in a landfill (which is where they will be in 10-15 years).

The point of using a reusable and/or recyclable battery is that it doesn't end up in the landfill. It is built specifically with components expected to be reused at the end of the life of the battery. It's not just an environmental incentive, it also saves the manufacturers a lot of money.

On a side note, what's up with the namecalling? What, are you 12?

I guess I'll apologize, I thought you were calling people stupid.

Shaddim · Oct 25, 2004, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
The reality of it is that the majority of cars are still SUVs. Economy cars can get as fuel efficient as they want, it's not going to change consumer buying habits. Economy SUVs would be ideal, but everyone wants 500HP to get little Billy to soccer practice.

The point of using a reusable and/or recyclable battery is that it doesn't end up in the landfill. It is built specifically with components expected to be reused at the end of the life of the battery. It's not just an environmental incentive, it also saves the manufacturers a lot of money.

I guess I'll apologize, I thought you were calling people stupid.

Talking to car dealers, I've noticed that the trend is shifting, slowly but surely. I do believe that the days of the fire sale at the local Hummer dealership are over.

As for the battery issue, yes, that sounds great but we both know the realities of recycling. It's never as effective or as "clean" as what people think. Sounds good on paper, but from a practical standpoint, it never seems to stack up.

FWIW, I do think there are possibilities in the area of biodiesel. It seems like a good start.

aberdeenwriter · Oct 25, 2004, 08:53 PM

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

"Aren't There Alternatives to Oil?"

Many politicians and economists insist that there are alternatives to oil and that we can "invent our way out of this." Physicists and geologists tell us an entirely different story. The politicians and economists are selling us 30-year old economic and political fantasies, while the physicists and geologists are telling us scientific and mathematical truth. Rather than accept the high-tech myths proposed by the politicians and economists, its time for you to start asking critical questions about the so called "alternatives to oil" and facing some hard truths about energy.

Unfortunately, since most people see and hear only what they want to see and hear, the politicians and economists are lauded while the physicists and geologists are ignored.

While there are many technologically viable alternatives to oil, there are none (or combination thereof) that can supply us with anywhere near the amount of net-energy required by our modern monetary system and industrial infrastructure.

If we have have a few dozen technological miracles, unprecedented political will and bipartisan cooperation, massive amounts of investment capital, and about 25-50 years of peace and prosperity to retrofit the world's 40 trillion dollar per year industrial infrastructure, we might be able to get the energy equivalent of 3-5 billion barrels of oil per year from alternative sources.

That's a tremendous amount of oil - about as much as the entire world used per year during World War II, but it's not enough. Unfortunately, the world currently needs over 30 billion barrels of oil per year to support economic growth. That number will only increase as time goes on due to population growth, debt servicing, and the industrialization of countries like China and India.

Furthermore, people tend to think of alternatives to oil as somehow independent from oil. In reality, the alternatives to oil are more accurately described as "derivatives of oil." It takes massive amounts of oil and other scarce resources to locate and mine the raw materials (silver, copper, platinum, uranium, etc.) necessary to build solar panels, windmills, and nuclear power plants. It takes more oil to construct these alternatives and even more oil to distribute them, maintain them, and adapt current infrastructure to run on them.

Plant based alternatives like ethanol and biodiesel are also entirely dependent on an abundant supply of oil as modern agriculture is entirely oil-powered. All pesticides are derived from oil while all fertilizers are derived from natural gas, which is also running out. As oil production declines, so will our ability to produce food and agricultural-based alternatives to oil.
It's not just transportation and agriculture that are entirely dependent on abundant, cheap energy. Modern medicine, water distribution, and national defense are each entirely powered by oil and petroleum derived chemicals. Most consumer goods are made with plastic, which is derived from oil.

djohnson · Oct 25, 2004, 10:05 PM

Sounds like were are up the creek without a paddle then. What are we going to do?

aberdeenwriter · 10:20 PM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Sounds like were are up the creek without a paddle then. What are we going to do?

Plan to live off the land.

Seriously.

Or, we can make so much frickkin moolah that we can can live a little bit more like Fred Flinstone's boss, Mr. Slate, rather than like Fred and Wilma.

Think Mad Max. Think about all the post-apocalyptic novels and tv shows and movies you've read and seen and think of them as a tutorial of sorts.

djohnson · Oct 25, 2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Plan to live off the land.

Seriously.

Good thing we have our garden then.

Who knows, maybe Jesus will come back first.

aberdeenwriter · Oct 25, 2004, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Good thing we have our garden then. Who knows, maybe Jesus will come back first.

I know he'll be getting quite a few calls when the worst comes about. See, this puts everything else in a different perspective.

I LIKE not having to worry about Foreign Agents!

aberdeenwriter · Oct 25, 2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Good thing we have our garden then. Who knows, maybe Jesus will come back first.

WOW! You did tomatoes from SEEDS? Very cool!

Never worked from seeds before. Always little baby plants in the peat cups.

MATTRESS · Oct 25, 2004, 11:02 PM

We could start by building homes/shopping/offices closer together and start using our two feet. It would help with the obesity problem and the oil problem at the same time.

aberdeenwriter · Oct 26, 2004, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
We could start by building homes/shopping/offices closer together and start using our two feet. It would help with the obesity problem and the oil problem at the same time.

Anything that will help is a step in the right direction. There's going to be a conference in Ohio in November here's some links to the site.

http://www.communitysolution.org/conf1.html

http://www.communitysolution.org/problem.html

http://www.communitysolution.org/peakqanda.html

Q: What will happen as Peak Oil occurs?
A: Oil prices will start to go up. Any goods that are produced with the help of oil will become more expensive.

Q: What will happen after Peak Oil occurs?
A: As the global supply of oil begins to fall below the world's rising demands, there will be a shortage. Oil prices will go up exponentially. For example, just a few years ago in California a 5 percent shortage in natural gas led to a 400 percent price increase.

Because oil is used to transport the goods of our consumer society from all over the nation and globe, the price of most products will also go up. Food prices will be the most evident as food spending as a percentage of income rises.

Furthermore, because energy prices and the economy are so closely linked, an economic recession will be the most likely consequence. Rising national and consumer debt, increased unemployment, and increased social unrest will all follow.

As we acclimate ourselves to a world of scarce oil, the use of oil for non-essential purposes will decrease dramatically. Miles driven will decrease and people will drive more fuel efficient vehicles. People will use less oil directly and indirectly because they cannot afford it. Living in a suburb will become more difficult since cars won't be able to be used as much to get around. Families will likely spend more time with each other. There will be an increasing interest in organic farming out of necessity as food prices continue to escalate.

Oil production will decrease steadily each year until it is all gone in about 40 years. There will still be oil left but it will be too costly to get it out � that is, it may take more energy to get it out than it contains. The oil interval in human history will be over.