[gatekeeper]

Costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance, according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released Wednesday.

All is well in the capitalist utopia. Article.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by gatekeeper:
All is well in the capitalist utopia. Article.

There are some factors missing from that press release. The two factors well known to be the primary causes of personal bankruptcies are serious illnesses and loss of employment. That is because most of us can't pay our bills for long without maintaining our current incomes.

The problem is it is artificial to separate them because the two often go hand in hand. People who become seriously ill for a long time often lose their jobs as a consequence of not being able to work. Employers can't be expected to permanently pay for workers who aren't there. Those unemployed workers then within a paycheck or two run into problems paying their living expenses. Pretty soon you are looking at bankruptcy.

That probably explains why people with health insurance who suffer a major illness still develop financial problems. Maybe the study actually discusses the full picture, but the press release doesn't, and that is a flaw.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Out-of-pocket medical expenses covering co-payments, deductibles and uncovered health services averaged $13,460 for bankruptcy filers who had private insurance at the onset of illness, compared with $10,893 for those without coverage. Those who initially had private coverage but lost it during their illness faced the highest cost, an average of $18,005.

I’m thinking a part of the problem may be that many people might see filing bankruptcy as an ‘easy’ way out of debt more often than they should. None of the amounts listed above seem to me insurmountable sums that should automatically drive one into bankruptcy, and I can just imagine the enormous strain this puts on the healthcare industry, driving costs up even more for everyone else.

I'm sure there's a percentage of people who are unable to work after an illness to the point that a five-figure bill would drive them into bankruptcy, but I somehow doubt that demographic makes up the majority.

And once again, the answer most certainly won’t be soaking the taxpayers even more and pretending to phantom-spend the (temporary)increase on YET ANOTHER crusade de jour.

Some real world private sector-based reform -not more government created bureaucracy- to drastically bring down the cost of healthcare in the first place, would be a good start.

[BoomStick]

You can go to a non profit hospital and they will forgive any charges.

If you are "poor", you get free treatment regardless.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Thank God for OHIP.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I’m thinking a part of the problem may be that many people might see filing bankruptcy as an ‘easy’ way out of debt more often than they should. None of the amounts listed above seem to me insurmountable sums that should automatically drive one into bankruptcy, and I can just imagine the enormous strain this puts on the healthcare industry, driving costs up even more for everyone else.

agreed. those figures do seem quite low -- about what you'd pay for maybe two broken arms and two weeks in the hospital. something chronic and truly serious would cost much more.

the more important point, like you said, is why these people are declaring bankruptcy at that point. my guess is that they are like most americans, with pre-existing credit card debt due to poor self-control, and no savings to speak of.

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
You can go to a non profit hospital and they will forgive any charges.

If you are "poor", you get free treatment regardless.

Maybe for incidental illness but what about the kind of expense that'd be enough to bankrupt someone? Can you show me the hospital that could afford to stay in business and practice medicine the way you suggest?

[BoomStick]

Phoebe Putney Memorial Hospital, Grady Memorial, St. Jude, etc.
GA is full of them.

If you can't pay in full, you pay what you can and they will forgive the rest.


There are many charity hospitals out there.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Maybe for incidental illness but what about the kind of expense that'd be enough to bankrupt someone? Can you show me the hospital that could afford to stay in business and practice medicine the way you suggest?

as the above poster notes many hospitals are this way. harborview in seattle is definitely one of them, speaking for my general area...

[MacNStein]

Yep, here in Knoxville we have St Mary's (subsidized by the RC church) and UT hospital, both of which offer extensive indigent care.

[bubblewrap]

My wife's grandad was hit head on by a drunk. Illegal immigrant at that. No insurance, no license. He was in a coma fo 3 months. He was released from the hospital 9 months after the "accident". His bills are well over $3 million. Will he have to file for bankruptsy? No.

Medicare and the VA is paying the bill.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Thank God for OHIP.

OHIP, and other provincial health plans, cover the cost of treating illnesses, but do they cover the cost of loss of employment due to illness?

[BoomStick]

You can get a disability rider on your health insurance.

Sort term and long term and it's really cheap.
The long term will pay for life the amount of salary at the time of the disability.

My co-worker's kidney's failed and she was out of work for 3 months recovering and didn't miss a single paycheck or owed any medical payments because of the insurance.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
You can get a disability rider on your health insurance.

Sort term and long term and it's really cheap.

as an example, my disability insurance is $65 for four years. admittedly it's not a high risk policy since i'm a student (so little to no income, good health assumed) but it would pay off all of my loans and provide a small fixed income should i become permanently disabled somehow.

[Curios Meerkat]

So, if affordable health care is really so widespread and easy to find, why do "costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance?"

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Curios Meerkat:
So, if affordable health care is really so widespread and easy to find, why do "costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance?"

It doesn't, I think their stats are BS.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
OHIP, and other provincial health plans, cover the cost of treating illnesses, but do they cover the cost of loss of employment due to illness?

You can get disability rather easily if you have a health problem. Wonderful country.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by Curios Meerkat:
So, if affordable health care is really so widespread and easy to find, why do "costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance?"

that's what we've been theorizing about: because people declare bankruptcy as the "easy out", or because they have other debt (again, not an issue with health care costs).

[itai195]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I’m thinking a part of the problem may be that many people might see filing bankruptcy as an ‘easy’ way out of debt more often than they should. None of the amounts listed above seem to me insurmountable sums that should automatically drive one into bankruptcy, and I can just imagine the enormous strain this puts on the healthcare industry, driving costs up even more for everyone else.

I agree, though that sum would be hard for someone like me to pay, as I'm just a couple years out of college. However, I'd guess a bill like that combined with poor financial management and the loss of employment due to a lengthy absence could combine to force some people into that situation. I'd also point out that the lead author of that study, Dr. Himmelstein, is one of the leading advocates in the US for nationalized healthcare. Not that I think it discredits the study, but it's always good to know your source...

[saab95]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
There are some factors missing from that press release. The two factors well known to be the primary causes of personal bankruptcies are serious illnesses and loss of employment. That is because most of us can't pay our bills for long without maintaining our current incomes.

The problem is it is artificial to separate them because the two often go hand in hand. People who become seriously ill for a long time often lose their jobs as a consequence of not being able to work. Employers can't be expected to permanently pay for workers who aren't there. Those unemployed workers then within a paycheck or two run into problems paying their living expenses. Pretty soon you are looking at bankruptcy.

That probably explains why people with health insurance who suffer a major illness still develop financial problems. Maybe the study actually discusses the full picture, but the press release doesn't, and that is a flaw.

It's a big flaw.

Many of us have Disability Insurance just in the event something catastrophic like that happens.

If it's available at work, then I would recommend to anyone to get it.

Oh yeah, the article doesn't seem to mention anything about that.

[Mithras]

I'm really enjoying all the callous mothe rfuck ers in this thread who declare that if someone gets sick, can't pay the bills, loses their job, and declares bankruptcy, it's because
* they're taking the "easy way out"
* they should have gone to a charity hospital
* they have poor self-control

Or it's just that the statistics in this Harvard professor's peer-reviewed publication are BS, and not as reliable as a few anecdotes about charity hospitals in the MacNN forums.

Incidentally, you can read the study if you want.

[Athens]

Americans still pay a lot for health care. Something like 15% of the GNP goes towards Medical, and 60 million people have no coverage at all. In Canada 10% of the GNP goes towards Medical and 100% of the population is covered.

Costs for insurance is higher in the US too. How much do you pay for medical insurance? I pay $45.00CDN a month, 7 months ago when I was making a lot less I paid 0 a month.

Of course if it was cheaper you would prob have the same problem we have with to many people using hospitals for minor things and clogging up everything because its so cheap and accessable.

[bubblewrap]

I pay about $7,000 a year for me and my wife.
But we get instant care. No waiting.
My wife needed a hysterectomy. No waiting.
Made an appointment with her Dr., 2 days later she was in for the surgery.

[Athens]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
I pay about $7,000 a year for me and my wife.
But we get instant care. No waiting.
My wife needed a hysterectomy. No waiting.
Made an appointment with her Dr., 2 days later she was in for the surgery.

About 583 a month that would be 728 a month CDN.

20 years at that cost:
$140,000 US $174,000 CDN

Lets compare systems
Emergancy Surgery and Tramma, treatment is immediate in both Countries
Knee Surgery from a sporting accedent, US 2-3 days. Canada 4-6 Weeks
Cost Differences, 728 a month CDN dollars at your monthly insurance level vs 45.00 a month for mine, or 174 000 in 20 years vs 10,800 in 20 years. I think I can live with a 4-6 week wait to enjoy $160,000 over 20 years.

[bubblewrap]

What about an emergency apendectomy.
My wife had to have one in 2002.
The procedure is about $35,000 US.
I paid nothing.
2 days in a private room too.
She has the best care I can buy.
My wife is worth more than $580 a month.


Transplant surgery?
I'm not sure how they comapir.

[Athens]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
What about an emergency apendectomy.
My wife had to have one in 2002.
The procedure is about $35,000 US.
I paid nothing.
2 days in a private room too.
She has the best care I can buy.
My wife is worth more than $580 a month.


Transplant surgery?
I'm not sure how they comapir.

Canada doesn’t have a problem with Emergency care, its none emergency care that has the long wait lists with the exception of organ transplants but that has to do with a shortage of organs. To give you a example of how emergency care works, my mom is a asthmatic, on average before she quit smoking I had to call 911 at least once every 2 months. With in 4 minutes of the call the fire department was at the door. Another minute goes by the first ambulance arrives. While she is loaded onto that Ambulance the second one usually arrives as the first one is ready to leave. 4 minutes later we are at the hospital. She is rushed directly into Emergency and taking care of immediately. No waits. On the other hand I break my arm from a bike accident im lucky to have a cast on it sooner then 3 hours. The biggest problem in Canada for waiting lists is more people generally make use of the hospitals and there is also a world wide shortage of doctors. The US allows foreign trained doctors to practice in the US with a lot less hoops then Canada. Canada forces foreign doctors to do 4 years of local training before they can practice which is making it hard to keep up with the baby boom population which are the biggest users of the medical system.

[bubblewrap]

I believe they look at the severety of an injury here too. So if it's a broken bone and not life threatening, you'll wait here too.
We Americans expect instant gratitude. Our medical system is strained too.
So if you have insurance, you go to a "doc in the box".(or private clinic)

But our trauma centers are unsurpassed.

[Athens]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
I believe they look at the severety of an injury here too. So if it's a broken bone and not life threatening, you'll wait here too.
We Americans expect instant gratitude. Our medical system is strained too.
So if you have insurance, you go to a "doc in the box".(or private clinic)

But our trauma centers are unsurpassed.

One thing I found when I was in Seattle for a while is that Hospitals are father apart from each other. Overal Coverage in Vancouver, you are never more then 15 minutes from some kind of Hospital in the city, now I don't know Seattle very well but on the map showing the Medical centers, it showed fewer and father apart, but going past one MUCH MUCH larger.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
You can get disability rather easily if you have a health problem. Wonderful country.

Same as this country.

[Sherwin]

Firstly, I question those stats about half of all personal bankruptcies being caused by illness. Not much to say other than the fact that it seems a little high.

Secondly, having a public health care system isn't the answer to everything. Our public health care system is dire, for example.
If I got ill tomorrow, it'd be probably at least a year before I got treatment if I relied on the National Health Service.

Government involvement in health matters is a bad thing - because governments tend to chase votes by attempting to show how good they are. There's a recent story from my local hospital to illustrate this:

In order to keep within government targets of "no more than * hours waiting for a bed/treatment", a patient was kept in the ambulance for hours. The receiving department wouldn't allow the paramedics to sign the patient over to them to keep their wait times down (if the patient ain't in the hospital, s/he's not on their wait list).
This meant that that ambulance couldn't attend other calls until they'd got rid of their existing patient. This resulted in the death of a young guy because the ambulance didn't get to him fast enough.

http://www.bnn-online.co.uk/news_dat...&Year=2003

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by Mithras:
I'm really enjoying all the callous mothe rfuck ers in this thread who declare that if someone gets sick, can't pay the bills, loses their job, and declares bankruptcy, it's because
* they're taking the "easy way out"
* they should have gone to a charity hospital
* they have poor self-control

Or it's just that the statistics in this Harvard professor's peer-reviewed publication are BS, and not as reliable as a few anecdotes about charity hospitals in the MacNN forums.

Incidentally, you can read the study if you want.

a) the abstract itself states that "Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness"
b) the introduction goes on to state that 70 percent of consumer debtors declared under chapter 7, which forces one to liquidate "unencumbered property" and has no repayment plan
c) furthermore, of these 70 percent, 96 percent had no unencumbered property or nothing to liquidate

put these stats together, assuming that the chapter 7 filers were not radically different from the mean, and you have a picture of people with no assets, no "unencumbered property", a $12k bill (which is not atypical of non-bankrupt peoples' consumer debt nowadays), and suddenly NO BILL TO PAY after declaring bankruptcy.

is it the easy way out? YES. how does noting this make me "callous"?

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Athens:
About 583 a month that would be 728 a month CDN.

20 years at that cost:
$140,000 US $174,000 CDN

Lets compare systems
Emergancy Surgery and Tramma, treatment is immediate in both Countries
Knee Surgery from a sporting accedent, US 2-3 days. Canada 4-6 Weeks
Cost Differences, 728 a month CDN dollars at your monthly insurance level vs 45.00 a month for mine, or 174 000 in 20 years vs 10,800 in 20 years. I think I can live with a 4-6 week wait to enjoy $160,000 over 20 years.

Don't forget the higher amount you pay for taxes. Why do Canadians always forget that when they talk about personal health care costs? Maybe I just happen to discuss this with the poorer Canadians who pay less taxes eh?

[Curios Meerkat]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
is it the easy way out? YES.

People choosing to file for personal bankruptcy are not doing so because it's easy - they do because it's the only way out they have... it's the last resort.

What would be a more difficult way out?

[Curios Meerkat]

Originally posted by Mithras:
I'm really enjoying all the callous mothe rfuck ers in this thread who declare that if someone gets sick, can't pay the bills, loses their job, and declares bankruptcy, it's because
* they're taking the "easy way out"
* they should have gone to a charity hospital
* they have poor self-control

Or it's just that the statistics in this Harvard professor's peer-reviewed publication are BS, and not as reliable as a few anecdotes about charity hospitals in the MacNN forums.

Incidentally, you can read the study if you want.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Don't forget the higher amount you pay for taxes. Why do Canadians always forget that when they talk about personal health care costs? Maybe I just happen to discuss this with the poorer Canadians who pay less taxes eh?

Our poor pay less tax, our Rich pay more.
How much is your income tax and how much do you pay tax on products.

By the way federal taxes are about the same, and cheaper in Canada
Canadian Taxes (1999)
Up to CA$29,590 17%
Above CA$29,590 26%
Above CA$59,180 29%

US Taxes (single person) (1999)
Up to US$25,750 15%
Above US$25,750 28%
Above US$62,450 31%
Above US$130,250 36%
Above US$283,250 39.6%

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Athens:
Our poor pay less tax, our Rich pay more.
How much is your income tax and how much do you pay tax on products.

By the way federal taxes are about the same, and cheaper in Canada
Canadian Taxes (1999)
Up to CA$29,590 17%
Above CA$29,590 26%
Above CA$59,180 29%

US Taxes (single person) (1999)
Up to US$25,750 15%
Above US$25,750 28%
Above US$62,450 31%
Above US$130,250 36%
Above US$283,250 39.6%

Your ignorance must make you feel all warm at night. Get some current numbers please. Your US federal numbers are way off.

We pay 6% sales tax in Michigan. About 4% state income tax on top of our federal taxes.

What do you pay in sales taxes? and province taxes?

[olePigeon]

Congratulations. You've been preapproved for our Credit Card.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Curios Meerkat:
People choosing to file for personal bankruptcy are not doing so because it's easy - they do because it's the only way out they have... it's the last resort.

That’s a blanket statement that you can’t begin to back up. Amounts like $10,000- $18,000 are not ‘last resort’ numbers. If people have debts above and beyond these amounts that are non-illness related, then it’s a crock to catagorize those cases as solely ‘illness triggered’.

As usual, some are blinded by knee-jerk emotion, and a need to falsely politicize the issue, rather than weigh the facts objectively. For many, it IS simply easier to file for bankruptcy and essentially erase their debts (and then live with the resulting bad credit), rather than do like most people and arrange to pay their bills. IE: the ‘more difficult’ way you asked about.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Congratulations. You've been preapproved for our Credit Card.

*drops into the shredder*

[Athens]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Your ignorance must make you feel all warm at night. Get some current numbers please. Your US federal numbers are way off.

We pay 6% sales tax in Michigan. About 4% state income tax on top of our federal taxes.

What do you pay in sales taxes? and province taxes?

2004 US Federal Tax

Taxable income: Tax %

........ -7,300 10%
7,300-29,700 15%
29,700-71,950 25%
71,950-150,150 28%
150,150-326,450 33%
326,450-....... 35%

Canadian Federal tax rates for 2004 are:

16% on the first $35,000 of taxable income;
22% on the next $35,000 of taxable income;
26% on the next $43,804 of taxable income; and
29% of taxable income over $113,804.

I don't know how the tax deductions work in the US and I figure they are as complicated as ours but here is a example how a Canadian can get into a lower tax bracket.

If I made 35046 of taxable income I would be in the 25% bracket (8791.00)
But I could put 5446.00 into RRSP's which then puts my taxable income to 29600 so then I would be taxed at 15% (4440.00) so now i have a RRSP contribution of 5446 and only paid 4440.00 in taxes. If I wanted to max out my RRSP I could have put up to 6300.00 towards it.


Federal Tax (GST) Goods and Service Tax is 7%
Each Prov has its own rate, some as high as 10% some with none at all like Alberta.

In British Columbia where I live its 7% and food, childrens things like cloth, school suppliers and stuff for your business are excempt from the Provincial tax. Canada pays more in taxes yes but its not that much higher in the end.


Lets look at a California Example for a pay check
http://www.taxes.ca.gov/paycheckind.html

500.00 Paycheck

Federal Withholding 68.00
Social Security 31.00
Medicare 7.25
State Disability Insurance 4.50
State Withholding 13.47

Leaving $375.78 total deductions of $124.22

Lets look at one of my paycheck

Total for 2 weeks $1537.44

Deductions:
Income Tax: $249.22
Employment Insurance: $29.98
Canadian Pension Plan: $68.88
Total: $348.08 leaving me with a net pay of $1189.36


Going back to that 500.00 pay check example from California, triple it to match my check and triple its deductions it would be 372.66, just a shy bit more then my deductions. After I pay my Prov taxes im left paying just a bit more. So ya the taxes arent that much higher here.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
*drops into the shredder*

Ouch. You okay? I hope you meant the card!

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Ouch. You okay? I hope you meant the card!

Yeah, the card. I get somewhere between 4-8 cards a month, I don't even bother opening the envelopes anymore. Credit cards = evil.

[Curios Meerkat]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
For many, it IS simply easier to file for bankruptcy and essentially erase their debts (and then live with the resulting bad credit), rather than do like most people and arrange to pay their bills. IE: the ‘more difficult’ way you asked about.

How is someone that suffers of a major illness, that lost his job going to 'arrange to pay his bills'? Obviously this person not only is not going to be granted additional loans - he will need cash to pay for extra expenses (whatever isn't covered by the health insurance, etc. - provided he has one).

Over 2 million Americans declare personal bankruptcy every year - a blanket statement blinded by knee-jerk emotion is saying that they do so because "it's the easy way out". But maybe you need to falsely politicize the issue, rather than weigh the facts objectively.