[Cody Dawg]

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Unknown

Last night we were all sitting around watching the Superbowl and the discussion arose about dogs and whether or not they feel emotions (I strongly feel that they do) and moods (again, I think that they do) and the question arose: Do dogs have souls and do they go to heaven?

Do they?

[Randman]

Super Bowl, not Superbowl.

Well, if there are souls and a heaven, then I would assume that animals besides homo sapien can gain admittance.

Now, the question should be what makes an animal evil? With people, it's much easier to determine good from bad. But in the rest of the animal world, what constitutes evil?

And finally, who says humans have souls and go anywhere following death?

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Do dogs have souls and do they go to heaven?

Unfortunately, dogs don't go to heaven:

Rev 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."




-t

[waxcrash]

Do the thousands of cows that are slaughtered everyday to make McDonalds patties go to heaven too?

[turtle777]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
Do the thousands of cows that are slaughtered everyday to make McDonalds patties go to heaven too?

Yes, but they will remain patties there.
Can you imagine Heaven without hamburgers ?

-t

[Randman]

Will There Be Dogs in Heaven?

_This is a matter on which we cannot speak with perfect confidence, but taking all the Scriptures together, my reply is: “Yes, there will be dogs in heaven, but not your dog.”

Here is an example of a situation where simple proof texting is not that helpful._ Revelation 22:15 says of the heavenly city, “Outside are the dogs,” along with sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers or idolaters._ However, Isaiah’s picture of heaven includes this: “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat” (Isaiah 11:6)._ I would point out that wolf is a kind of dog.

Both of these verses should probably be taken figuratively._ Overall, dogs are a biblical metaphor for a contemptible person._ People didn’t have house pets then as we do now, and they were seen as mangy, scavenging curs that were a menace to society._ So to call someone a dog was to describe them as unworthy and sub-human._ Isaiah’s picture of the wolf dwelling with the lamb is figurative: a picture of a new creation where hatred and bloodshed is put away.
Another way to look at this, admittedly from the perspective of a dog-lover, is to note that the Bible describes heaven as paradise (Rev. 2:7), and it is hard to imagine a paradise that did not include the family dog._ People who dislike dogs might dispute this.

My argument in favor of dogs in heaven is based on broader considerations, namely the material nature of the life to come._ This is the point I really want to get across, that heaven is not an ephemeral, vaporous realm where we will float around like ghosts._ Heaven will be material._ The picture of heaven in Revelation 21 and 22 supports this: “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God… also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month” (Rev. 22:1-2)._ Furthermore, in the consummation of all things, we will be raised in glorified bodies, just as Jesus was raised in a glorified, material form._ After his resurrection, Jesus ate and drank with the disciples (see Luke 24:43 and 1 Cor. 15:35ff)._ Therefore, when the Bible speaks about the wedding feast of heaven it may mean more but it does not mean less._ Jesus ascended in a physical body and, while Christians who die are separated from their bodies until the resurrection, whatever realm Jesus is in now must have some physical dimension because he is there in a three-dimensional body.

We should understand, therefore, that there is continuity between the consummation of God’s redemption and his original work of creation._ Sin warped the creation in death and futility, so that God will ultimately cleanse the world in fire as he once did in water (see 2 Pet. 3:11-12)._ But what will be in the glory of God’s completed work is called “the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells” (2 Pet. 3:13)._ God’s original creation, which he called very good, included the animals._ I do not see why the renewed and restored creation should be absent of them._

Of this we can be sure, that when the consummate and final state of heaven arrives after the return of Christ, heaven will not be a far off realm._ Heaven will be here._ That is what the galaxies are for, the display of God’s glory as his people labor before him in the infinite and eternal Garden that is the universe._ In Revelation 11:15, the voices in heaven rejoice, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”_ Romans 8:21 tells us that then “the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”_ I suppose that means dogs, too – not our dogs today (they are finite creatures who pass into dust) – but heavenly dogs perfected in absolute canine glory – that will be something to see._ They will serve with us to the glory of God.

That leaves only one question: “Will there be cats in hell.”_ Again, I can’t be sure._ But I would point out that hell is described by the Bible as a place of eternal torment.

Rev. Richard Phillips is the chair of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology and senior pastor at First Presbyterian Church Coral Springs, Margate, Florida.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Unfortunately, dogs don't go to heaven:

Rev 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."

Yep. Heaven is reserved for cats.

A lot of Christians will state that animals don't go to Heaven and haven't got souls. I disagree - I believe that they do and that the interpretation that they don't have souls is just a good excuse for some Christians to carry on eating that steak.
As to whether or not they'll get there due to if they've been evil or not, I believe sin is a strictly human thing.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
As to whether or not they'll get there due to if they've been evil or not, I believe sin is a strictly human thing.

-t

[CD Hanks]

Three presumptions required: souls, heaven, and god.

More practically speaking: Is there an afterlife, and will animals be there? The leap of faith here is that there is an after life, past that, sure, why not? Animals are just meaty bags of flesh, bones, and water like us (with that added dash of electricity to power it all.) So, why wouldn't they be there, if we are supposed to be? Hell, if you boil it all down, we're just animals too. Don't let the lack of hair, opposable thumb, and digital wrist watch sway you, sans civilization, most of us are just well trained beasts.

But that's me.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Hell, if you boil it all down, we're just animals too.

[finboy]

You have to ask yourself why animals WOULDN'T have an afterlife. After all, they're innocent.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by finboy:
You have to ask yourself why animals WOULDN'T have an afterlife. After all, they're innocent.

Okay, but define innocence in relation to a wild animal. Hypothetically speaking, it may have to kill other animals (prey) to stay alive. And killing isn't highly regarded among us humans, so why should an animal be different? And hey, I bet it has pretty promiscuous sex too.

[Xeo]

"Oh Charlie"


BTW, religious threads go in the other lounge.

[Eug Wanker]

No, but then again, neither do humans.

+1

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
No, but then again, neither do humans.

That's my opinion as well.

[zigzag]

If there were no dogs, it wouldn't be Heaven.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by zigzag:
If there were no dogs, it wouldn't be Heaven.

Oh, don't be deceived. There will be dogs. Hot dogs.

-t

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Okay, but define innocence in relation to a wild animal. Hypothetically speaking, it may have to kill other animals (prey) to stay alive.

I've never seen a kangaroo dress up in a bright red tunic and go fox-hunting.

Generally, animals will only do "evil" when they have to. Whereas humans will do it just for kicks.

[Cody Dawg]

Are there any Hindus here?

A real Hindu (a Krishna conscious person) does not make any distinction between higher and lower beings. Although living beings are higher and lower relative to each other, he sees all beings as one and equal. Hinduism is the only religion, which actually preaches that all living beings are in fact one and thus should be treated equally. Living beings are souls covered in different bodies and in different circumstances according to karma or the law of nature. Most Hindus treat all living beings as one and equal. Only in India can you see monkeys, peacocks, cows, goats, chickens, people, mice, snakes, horses, and elephants. Walking, sitting, and living next to each other.

Maybe the closest thing to heaven, for a dog (or even a person), is the good life that we give them here on earth?

But, what or who determines how a dog ends up in a home where it is cherished and not abused? God must, therefore, dictate an animal's existence and whether that existence is a good one or a bad one?

Or, are all dogs without souls and their only purpose is to give humans joy?

These are all very interesting thoughts.

Remember Robin Williams in the movie What Dreams May Come? He is reunited with his pet dog when he dies.

It is hard to think that dogs do not have souls.

[Cody Dawg]

Okay, I see a lot of references to other animals.

Where do any of you place a dog's intelligence and ability to feel emotions as relative to another animal's similar abilities?

In other words, is a dog more likely to feel emotions than a cow?

Also, I happen to believe that dogs helped man evolve through the ages and that we owe a great debt to dogs (or wolf-dogs at one time) for that reason. Link

Who domesticated who?

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Or, are all dogs without souls and their only purpose is to give humans joy?

...yeah, just like cheap hookers.

/OT

eventhough i'm not a hindu, that quote pretty much reflects how i feel about these kinds of things. mice, cats, dogs, gorillas, tigers, humans, fish, dolphins, birds...doesn't matter.

all have "feeleings", and whether they were good, evil or just indifferent doesn't really matter, - they all wind up in the same place after they die:

walhalla

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Where do any of you place a dog's intelligence?

Somewhere below that of a housebrick?

(you can tell I'm a cat person, no?)

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
In other words, is a dog more likely to feel emotions than a cow?

No. It's equal, I reckon.

I can tell you that cows have just as much emotion as dogs - I've been kept awake enough nights when they've been mourning the loss of one of their number. They yell their heads off for about three days straight.

So, put that burger down. Tofo and Quorn are pretty good once you get used to them.

[demograph68]

[MacNStein]

According to the Zohar, yes, animals have souls... however, it's not an evolved soul such as a human's.

According to rabbinic lore there are 7 levels of the soul. The first five are:

Guf - The physical body, all things have a Guf.
Salem - The electrical force around all living things, all living things have a salem.
Ruach - The spirit, or conscoiusness. All animals have a Ruach.
Nephesh - The "animal soul", the drive for "more base emotions". All mammals have a Nephesh.
Neshama - The Human soul. This is what makes a person unique and is tied to our conscience and higher aspirations. All humans have a Neshama.


Thus, a dog would have 4 of those "levels", but the 5th, the one neccessary for immortal life, is non-existent. However, I would well imagine that in the world-to-come there will be animals, pets, etc.. It would be whatever the person desired. If you want your pets to be there, I'm sure they will be.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Salem - The electrical force around all living things, all living things have a salem.

Those things give you cancer.

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I would well imagine that in the world-to-come there will be animals, pets, etc.. It would be whatever the person desired. If you want your pets to be there, I'm sure they will be.

I pretty much agree with this also.

[zigzag]

The seven levels of soul:

1. Aretha
2. Ray
3. Otis
4. Al
5. Wilson
6. Gladys
7. Sam & Dave (tie)

This whole thread is preposterous, but since dogs are involved, it should at least be fun.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The seven levels of soul:

1. Aretha
2. Ray
3. Otis
4. Al
5. Wilson
6. Gladys
7. Sam & Dave (tie)

This whole thread is preposterous, but since dogs are involved, it should at least be fun.

Glad to see you're here to contribute. We're all very familiar with the type of "help" you readily provide... the above is a pristine example.

[Agent69]

My personal opinion is no. Personally, I suspect the idea of the soul is there to make people feel better about the inevitability of death.

[Cody Dawg]

Hi MacNStein:

How are you? Nice seeing you around.



I thought that zigzag was naming those names because those are the names of his dogs? Guess not?

Anyway, I wish animals had souls if they don't. Doesn't quite seem fair that they could help humans the way they do, make our lives better, even help us live our lives in better ways, then get nothing in return except eternal death.

Maybe they're better off...maybe they don't know that they die.

On the other hand, why do they struggle to survive, fight against death, if they don't know that they are mortal and can die?

[Mithras]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Glad to see you're here to contribute. We're all very familiar with the type of "help" you readily provide... the above is a pristine example.

Hey, I thought zigzag's post was hilarious.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Hi MacNStein:

How are you? Nice seeing you around.



I thought that zigzag was naming those names because those are the names of his dogs? Guess not?

Anyway, I wish animals had souls if they don't. Doesn't quite seem fair that they could help humans the way they do, make our lives better, even help us live our lives in better ways, then get nothing in return except eternal death.

Maybe they're better off...maybe they don't know that they die.

On the other hand, why do they struggle to survive, fight against death, if they don't know that they are mortal and can die?

Oh, I'm fine. Just being my normal, sun-shiney self.

IMO, as I said earlier, animals will be a part of the afterlife, it's just that they'll require our "assistance". It's all tied to our will and a degree of divine grace.

For me, the vote's still out regarding reincarnation and whether souls evolve. I'm still making up my mind about the notion.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Mithras:
Hey, I thought zigzag's post was hilarious.

and oh-so helpful...

[Kernel Angus]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The seven levels of soul:

1. Aretha
2. Ray
3. Otis
4. Al
5. Wilson
6. Gladys
7. Sam & Dave (tie)

This whole thread is preposterous, but since dogs are involved, it should at least be fun.

The seven levels of sole:

1. Nike
2. Reebock
3. Puma
4. Filas
5. Adidas
6. New Balance
7. Converse & Timberland (tie)

[Mithras]

Anyway, Cody: since I don't believe in an immortal soul per se, I'll address a slightly different question, which is whether animals can be said to be conscious in the way that we are. To that, my answer is: hell yes.

A related and interesting question is when, in the evolutionary development of humans, the creatures acquired souls. For example, did Homo floresiensis have a soul? Or homo habilis, the first to be known to have used tools, around 2 million years ago? Or Australopithecus afarensis (Lucy)?

Here's the whole lot of the hominids:



If you don't like extinct things, I think it's interesting to ponder the extant hominoids (primates):

[Sherwin]

/off-topic

Originally posted by MacNStein:
For me, the vote's still out regarding reincarnation and whether souls evolve. I'm still making up my mind about the notion.

I'm thinking "yes". Not so much animal -> human reincarnation but human -> human, yep. And not in the strict Eastern sense either...

Evidence(ish):

1) More people alive right now than have ever died.
2) For there to be a judgement day (in the Christian sense), all must have heard about The Word and either accepted or rejected. Even now, peeps are dying without having had the chance to accept or reject. So, another few trips around until their soul hears and gets the chance to make its mind up.

(yes, this does suggest that we're in the end game)

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Heaven would not be heaven to me without animals.

Not that me the gay guy is going there anyway but I don't care as hell sounds like much more fun with all the animals and interesting people.

[Kernel Angus]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Heaven would not be heaven to me without animals.

Not that me the gay guy is going there anyway but I don't care as hell sounds like much more fun with all the animals and interesting people.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Mithras:
Anyway, Cody: since I don't believe in an immortal soul per se, I'll address a slightly different question, which is whether animals can be said to be conscious in the way that we are. To that, my answer is: hell yes.

If an animal had a true sense of self, I would say... maybe. I just don't believe that they are conscious in the same way. There may be certain exceptions (certain marine mammals or maybe exceptional apes), but I'm not a biologist, so I really don't have enough info.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
/off-topic



I'm thinking "yes". Not so much animal -> human reincarnation but human -> human, yep. And not in the strict Eastern sense either...

Evidence(ish):

1) More people alive right now than have ever died.
2) For there to be a judgement day (in the Christian sense), all must have heard about The Word and either accepted or rejected. Even now, peeps are dying without having had the chance to accept or reject. So, another few trips around until their soul hears and gets the chance to make its mind up.

(yes, this does suggest that we're in the end game)

That's not truly "reincarnation", in the classical sense, and I am inclined to think in that direction myself, after a fashion. Personally, I don't see the soul in it's purest form as being unique to each person. I believe at the core, there is only one soul, and that in the end (or the beginning) all will return to it... and then expand out again in an endless cycle.

[Cody Dawg]

Mithras:

That's an awesome chart!

There is a book by James Serpell that argues that human beings would not have evolved if it weren't for dogs, actually. He makes a very good case for it to the point that I really came away thinking that we would not be who we are on the evolutionary scale were it not for wolves, wolf-dogs, and dogs.

Besides, "dog" is "god" spelled backwards.

[bubblewrap]

Many animals will mourn the loss of a companion.
Elephants do.
Crows also will mourn.
I've worked with parrots(especially cockatoos) for almost 20 years and am certain they have a sense of self.

All living things have a spirit, no matter how small.
We all are part of a larger collective of one spirit.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Mithras:

Besides, "dog" is "god" spelled backwards.

evil = live

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Anyway, I wish animals had souls if they don't. Doesn't quite seem fair that they could help humans the way they do, make our lives better, even help us live our lives in better ways, then get nothing in return except eternal death.

Maybe they're better off...maybe they don't know that they die.

On the other hand, why do they struggle to survive, fight against death, if they don't know that they are mortal and can die?

Lots of derail attempts, I see. Anyway, Cody D, I firmly believe that animals do not have immortal souls as Mankind/Humans do.

Obviously my opinion stems from my faith, as this in and of itself is a Faith discussion. Point being, Mankind was created separate from the animal kingdom and it was only into Mankind (via Adam) that He breathed the breath of life into us and instilled into Man his/her immortal soul. God didn't do this with animals as they have no moral choice to make regarding Faith and God. God created Mankind for a personal relationship, a grand experiment, and the world He created us into is here for our enjoyment. Part of that is the animal world He made.

Now we can begin to split hairs. God created angels and the other heavenly beings (angels being on the bottom of the Angelic Hierarchy) and they do not have souls -- they have no need for them. Nevertheless, they are immortal. Point being, having an immortal soul isn't a requirement for a being in Heaven -- if it was, the Angelic host would have to have a soul.

Lastly, I believe that God will fill our final, eternal abode with all of His perfect creation as it was in the Beginning. This being the case, I may never see my dead cats Lewis and Clarke again (both of which I loved dearly), and I probably won't see Mr. Uno Catpuccino (who I also love dearly). But, just as we do now when a loved pet dies, we find another and remember the joys of the former. So will it be in eternity with all manner of God's great creations.

Maury's 2¢'s.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
/off-topic

I'm thinking "yes". Not so much animal -> human reincarnation but human -> human, yep. And not in the strict Eastern sense either...

Evidence(ish):

1) More people alive right now than have ever died.
2) For there to be a judgment day (in the Christian sense), all must have heard about The Word and either accepted or rejected. Even now, peeps are dying without having had the chance to accept or reject. So, another few trips around until their soul hears and gets the chance to make its mind up.

(yes, this does suggest that we're in the end game)

In the Christian sense, the Bible tells us "it is appointed for a man to die once, then after this, the judgment." Thus, the Bible -- in the Christian sense -- flat-out denies reincarnation.

As to all hearing and deciding, that's not Biblical, either. There's an excellent passage where souls in Heaven are asking God when He will call up the saved and begin the process of redeeming His earth, and God says when the number of those that are numbered is met. So, not everyone explicitly hears about Jesus, etc. -- and those that don't have that opportunity are judged by their faith as best they understand faith. Further, the Bible tells us that God reveals Himself those people -- think people out in the middle of BFE -- through His creation, the world.

Maury

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
In the Christian sense, the Bible tells us "it is appointed for a man to die once, then after this, the judgment." Thus, the Bible -- in the Christian sense -- flat-out denies reincarnation.

I understand that my viewpoint isn't shared with many Christians. However, when The Bible tells us that "man shall die once", does it actually mean physical death or a more permanent eternal death? Because, let's face it when Jesus talks about life he means eternal life, not physical life. Why not the same for death?

This page explains it much better than I can.

(this is actually the first time I've read that page, which came off a Google search for "appointed for man to die once" (top result) - I've come to my reincarnation theory via "feel" over about 5 years - but a quick glance and it looks like it's come to the same conclusion as I have. I'm gonna have a read of the whole book and see how it tallies)

Originally posted by RAILhead:
As to all hearing and deciding, that's not Biblical, either. There's an excellent passage where souls in Heaven are asking God when He will call up the saved and begin the process of redeeming His earth, and God says when the number of those that are numbered is met. So, not everyone explicitly hears about Jesus, etc. -- and those that don't have that opportunity are judged by their faith as best they understand faith. Further, the Bible tells us that God reveals Himself those people -- think people out in the middle of BFE -- through His creation, the world.

1) Please say which passage - I'm not willing to argue but I'd like to see how it fits in with my "felt" viewpoint.

2) What the heck is BFE? Not heard that one before!

[xenu]

What soul? It's a made up concept, like sin.
So no, like everyone else, they don't.

[iLikebeer]

I'm sure they have something close to our level of self-awareness as I can't see any survival reason for a dog grabbing my arm and making me rub his belly, then whining if I don't.

Also, my old roommate's cat always P'd on another roomates laundry and pillow that was mean to him. I could see that cat going to hell. Another question is whether cats can ask forgiveness for their sins through lots of cuddling and purring, cause he could be a little sweety.

My bet is this whole thing will have to be definitively answered in the next few tens of thousands of years, after we discover an advanced alien race in this galaxy or another that keeps pets that put human intelligence to shame.

[BoomStick]

This answer is for Cody if you are willing to accept scripture for evidence. If you are unwilling to accept scripture, then I am of no help to you.

ob 38:41 Can you provide food for the raven, when its young ones cry to God, and wander about for lack of food?

Job 12:7 "But now ask the beasts, and they will teach you; and the birds of the air, and they will tell you;

Job 12:8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you; and the fish of the sea will explain to you.

Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this,

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind?

Luk 12:6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.

Pro 12:10 A righteous man regards the life of his animal,

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Generally, animals will only do "evil" when they have to. Whereas humans will do it just for kicks.

I have a Masters in Zoology and Animal Biology, and have worked with animals for around 15 years now.

I will tell you this statement can only be made by someone who hasn't been around animals other than domestic ones.

We have birds here (Miami Metrozoo) who will mate with another birds' mate because they seemingly just wanted too. We have retaliations and even behavior towards keepers because they are allowed to exit the holding pens.

Animals can behave quite wickedly, and I suspect if they had evening news they would be right up there with the human animal in malicious acts.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
There is a book by James Serpell that argues that human beings would not have evolved if it weren't for dogs, actually. He makes a very good case for it to the point that I really came away thinking that we would not be who we are on the evolutionary scale were it not for wolves, wolf-dogs, and dogs.

Hey I have that book as well! I think the main thing I think about the whole concept is, there are a lot of animals in places they would not be if it wasn't for other animals.

Now in the evolutionary cycle some animals DEPEND on others to survive, I don't think it was much different for MANY a human who relied on their canines.

Edit: To answer your main question.

I see nothing that would differentiate the human animal from a canine animal. There is higher intellect on the human side, but other traits are FAR superior on the canine side. If you believe in the whole 'soul' thing, I see no reason a canine wouldn't have one, or why a human would be the only animal who does.

Personally, I don't see the point in a soul repository. When we die we die. Game over.