[itistoday]

I'm trying to find documentation on what Bush said to Putin, anyone have anything specific? CNN just said:

Bush also said he raised concerns about Russia's state of democracy "in a constructive and friendly way" during the talks.

"I reaffirmed my belief that it is democracy and freedom that bring true security and prosperity in every land," Bush said.

Critics accuse Putin of rolling back democratic reforms that came to Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

"We may not always agree with each other ... but we've found a lot of common ground," Bush said.

It sounds to me as if Bush pushes too hard in areas he should not, and pushes too little in areas he should. Raising concerns "in a constructive and friendly way"... I can just imagine it:

Bush: Um... Mr. Putin, sir? I really believe that democracy and freedom is important for sovernennitities—

Putin: DAH! I too believe in this democracy. Democracy is good, and I give democracy to my people.

Bush: Well I'm glad we've found some common ground, partner!

So, did Bush specifically ask Putin about:

• The arrest and trial of the former head of Yukos oil, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, and the dismantlement of his company
• Kremlin control of Russia's mass media
• Political changes Putin introduced after the Belsan school massacre that put more power in his hands

It sounds to me like as if no specifics were mentioned, and Putin was allowed to bullshit his way out of any remote questioning put up by Bush. Does anyone have any specific information about what was said?

[BRussell]

Bush used his special soul-detector on Putin, and that's good enough for me.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Bush used his special soul-detector on Putin, and that's good enough for me.

LOL.

I've never gotten the impression that the White House is overly concerned with how Putin conducts domestic affairs. It seems to me early in the Bush presidency the precendent was set that Russian cooperation in international affairs would entail US not sticking its nose into Russian domestic affairs.

Even if Bush really is sincere in his concerns for Putin's actions (I'm not sure if he is or not), I'm sceptical Bush has any real leverage at this point.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Bush used his special soul-detector on Putin, and that's good enough for me.

Yes, I also thought this was rediculous. Relevant quote:

"I was able to get a sense of his soul, a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country," Bush declared after their 2001 visit.

Now the Bush administration says it's worried about the country Putin is creating.

The guy is an absolute joke...

[typoon]

Originally posted by itistoday:

Yes, I also thought this was rediculous. Relevant quote:

The guy is an absolute joke...

Thats for sure considering he got duped by this ex-KGB Agent.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by itistoday:
I'm trying to find documentation on what Bush said to Putin, anyone have anything specific? CNN just said:

It sounds to me as if Bush pushes too hard in areas he should not, and pushes too little in areas he should. Raising concerns "in a constructive and friendly way"... I can just imagine it:

So, did Bush specifically ask Putin about:

• The arrest and trial of the former head of Yukos oil, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, and the dismantlement of his company
• Kremlin control of Russia's mass media
• Political changes Putin introduced after the Belsan school massacre that put more power in his hands

It sounds to me like as if no specifics were mentioned, and Putin was allowed to bullshit his way out of any remote questioning put up by Bush. Does anyone have any specific information about what was said?

From the little I heard on Talk of the Nation on my way into work, The Yukos and media topics were covered. I didn't listen long enough to find out details, but NPR should have the show linked on their webpage.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by typoon:
Thats for sure considering he got duped by this ex-KGB Agent.

I thought Bush's formulation of his opinon on Putin was bothersome since I'm rather sceptical about looking into souls, but in Bush's defense American politicians have often been stumped by Russian and Soviet leaders.

At the time, Stalin was widely regarded as honest, pragmatic and personally appealing. American leaders frequently expressed the notion that despite Stalin's policies, "deep down" he was someone that could be reasoned with and a relied on as a partner.

There is a lot more difference in our worldviews than I think most westerners are aware of. And nothing is more fundamentally American that our noble assumption that "deep down" other people want the same kind of things that we want. Its a source of great cultural strength and at times a cause for our mistakes.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I thought Bush's formulation of his opinon on Putin was bothersome since I'm rather sceptical about looking into souls, but in Bush's defense American politicians have often been stumped by Russian and Soviet leaders.

At the time, Stalin was widely regarded as honest, pragmatic and personally appealing. American leaders frequently expressed the notion that despite Stalin's policies, "deep down" he was someone that could be reasoned with and a relied on as a partner.

There is a lot more difference in our worldviews than I think most westerners are aware of. And nothing is more fundamentally American that our noble assumption that "deep down" other people want the same kind of things that we want. Its a source of great cultural strength and at times a cause for our mistakes.

Well said.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I thought Bush's formulation of his opinon on Putin was bothersome since I'm rather sceptical about looking into souls, but in Bush's defense American politicians have often been stumped by Russian and Soviet leaders.

At the time, Stalin was widely regarded as honest, pragmatic and personally appealing. American leaders frequently expressed the notion that despite Stalin's policies, "deep down" he was someone that could be reasoned with and a relied on as a partner.

There is a lot more difference in our worldviews than I think most westerners are aware of. And nothing is more fundamentally American that our noble assumption that "deep down" other people want the same kind of things that we want. Its a source of great cultural strength and at times a cause for our mistakes.

Let's call this "ethnocentrism".

[spacefreak]

Almost every topic to be brought up by GWB was surely known by Putin. Heck, we all knew what topics were going to be on the table.

Iran's nuclear pursuit was the key issue here. The other stuff (limited democracy, Kremlin-like behavior, etc) was secondary. It was more important for these issues to be addressed by not only the US, but also the rest of the industrialized world.

Putin knows that the world is keeping an eye on Russia's democratic process. And I'm sure Bush threw out a few things regarding this that Putin didn't think Bush knew. That's all that was needed at this point... the notification to Putin that the world AND the Russian people are aware of his shenanigans.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Putin knows that the world is keeping an eye on Russia's democratic process. And I'm sure Bush threw out a few things regarding this that Putin didn't think Bush knew. That's all that was needed at this point... the notification to Putin that the world AND the Russian people are aware of his shenanigans.

Putin didn't know it before??

Maybe Bush should call Putin each day and read him the weather forecast as well.

The nub: The Bush admin finally went on public record expressing some kind of view on Putin's antics after months of saying nothing and getting lots of heat from its critics for saying nothing.

Unfortunately, it sounds like Bush's message was substantially short of any formal denouncement or condemnation.

Basically, if Putin was a drunk driver, Bush just asked for his keys, got brushed aside and now tells everyone at the bar that he tried.

[budster101]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Putin didn't know it before??

Maybe Bush should call Putin each day and read him the weather forecast as well.

The nub: The Bush admin finally went on public record expressing some kind of view on Putin's antics after months of saying nothing and getting lots of heat from its critics for saying nothing.

Unfortunately, it sounds like Bush's message was substantially short of any formal denouncement or condemnation.

Basically, if Putin was a drunk driver, Bush just asked for his keys, got brushed aside and now tells everyone at the bar that he tried.

I have a sneaking suspician that world politics are a bit more complicated than that.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Putin didn't know it before??

Maybe Bush should call Putin each day and read him the weather forecast as well.

The nub: The Bush admin finally went on public record expressing some kind of view on Putin's antics after months of saying nothing and getting lots of heat from its critics for saying nothing.

Unfortunately, it sounds like Bush's message was substantially short of any formal denouncement or condemnation.

Basically, if Putin was a drunk driver, Bush just asked for his keys, got brushed aside and now tells everyone at the bar that he tried.

Once again, very well said. I think you're on a roll here

[nredman]

The United States should seek to bar Russia from this year's major-nation summit to protest actions by Moscow including its deal Sunday to provide Iran (news - web sites) nuclear fuel, a leading Republican senator said.

Lawmakers from both major parties joined in calling for Russia to be punished for the nuclear deal and what they said were anti-democratic actions by Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites), although the French, German and British ambassadors to the United States opposed barring Russia from the summit.

"This latest step of the Russians vis-a-vis the Iranians calls for sterner measures to be taken between ourselves and Russia. It has got to, at some point, begin to harm our relations," Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona said on "Fox News Sunday."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ar_iran_usa_dc

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by nredman:
The United States should seek to bar Russia from this year's major-nation summit to protest actions by Moscow including its deal Sunday to provide Iran (news - web sites) nuclear fuel, a leading Republican senator said.

Lawmakers from both major parties joined in calling for Russia to be punished for the nuclear deal and what they said were anti-democratic actions by Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites), although the French, German and British ambassadors to the United States opposed barring Russia from the summit.

"This latest step of the Russians vis-a-vis the Iranians calls for sterner measures to be taken between ourselves and Russia. It has got to, at some point, begin to harm our relations," Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona said on "Fox News Sunday."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ar_iran_usa_dc

Ah!

Finally a good reason for that anti-missile shield of yours!

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Putin didn't know it before??

I wouldn't be surprised. After all, Putin thought Bush fired Dan Rather...

When Bush confronted his Russian counterpart about the freedom of the press in Russia, Putin shot back with an attack of his own: "We didn't criticize you when you fired those reporters at CBS."

[OldManMac]

Bush preaching to others about democracy; that's a laugh!

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0227-24.htm

W.'s Stiletto Democracy

by Maureen Dowd


WASHINGTON -- It was remarkable to see President Bush lecture Vladimir Putin on the importance of checks and balances in a democratic society.

Remarkably brazen, given that the only checks Mr. Bush seems to believe in are those written to the "journalists" Armstrong Williams, Maggie Gallagher and Karen Ryan, the fake TV anchor, to help promote his policies. The administration has given a whole new meaning to checkbook journalism, paying a stupendous $97 million to an outside P.R. firm to buy columnists and produce propaganda, including faux video news releases.

The only balance W. likes is the slavering, Pravda-like "Fair and Balanced" coverage Fox News provides. Mr. Bush pledges to spread democracy while his officials strive to create a Potemkin press village at home. This White House seems to prefer softball questions from a self-advertised male escort with a fake name to hardball questions from journalists with real names; it prefers tossing journalists who protect their sources into the gulag to giving up the officials who broke the law by leaking the name of their own C.I.A. agent.

W., who once looked into Mr. Putin's soul and liked what he saw, did not demand the end of tyranny, as he did in his second Inaugural Address. His upper lip sweating a bit, he did not rise to the level of his hero Ronald Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Instead, he said that "the common ground is a lot more than those areas where we disagree." The Russians were happy to stress the common ground as well.

An irritated Mr. Putin compared the Russian system to the American Electoral College, perhaps reminding the man preaching to him about democracy that he had come in second in 2000 according to the popular vote, the standard most democracies use.

Certainly the autocratic former K.G.B. agent needs to be upbraided by someone - Tony Blair, maybe? - for eviscerating the meager steps toward democracy that Russia had made before Mr. Putin came to power. But Mr. Bush is on shaky ground if he wants to hold up his administration as a paragon of safeguarding liberty - considering it has trampled civil liberties in the name of the war on terror and outsourced the torture of prisoners to bastions of democracy like Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. (The secretary of state canceled a trip to Egypt this week after Egypt's arrest of a leading opposition politician.)

"I live in a transparent country," Mr. Bush protested to a Russian reporter who implicitly criticized the Patriot Act by noting that the private lives of American citizens "are now being monitored by the state."

Dick Cheney's secret meetings with energy lobbyists were certainly a model of transparency. As was the buildup to the Iraq war, when the Bush hawks did their best to cloak the real reasons they wanted to go to war and trumpet the trumped-up reasons.

The Bush administration wields maximum secrecy with minimal opposition. The White House press is timid. The poor, limp Democrats don't have enough power to convene Congressional hearings on any Republican outrages and are reduced to writing whining letters of protest that are tossed in the Oval Office trash.

When nearly $9 billion allotted for Iraqi reconstruction during Paul Bremer's tenure went up in smoke, Democratic lawmakers vainly pleaded with Republicans to open a Congressional investigation.

Even the near absence of checks and balances is not enough for W. Not content with controlling the White House, Congress, the Supreme Court and a good chunk of the Fourth Estate, he goes to even more ludicrous lengths to avoid being challenged.

The White House wants its Republican allies in the Senate to stamp out the filibuster, one of the few weapons the handcuffed Democrats have left. They want to invoke the so-called nuclear option and get rid of the 150-year-old tradition in order to ram through more right-wing judges.

Mr. Bush and Condi Rice strut in their speeches - the secretary of state also strutted in Wiesbaden in her foxy "Matrix"-dominatrix black leather stiletto boots - but they shy away from taking questions from the public unless they get to vet the questions and audiences in advance.

Administration officials went so far as to cancel a town hall meeting during Mr. Bush's visit to Germany last week after deciding an unscripted setting would be too risky, opting for a round-table talk in Mainz with preselected Germans and Americans.

The president loves democracy - as long as democracy means he's always right.