[typoon]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=43010

The leader of the Lebanese opposition, a sharp critic of Washington foreign policy, says he's changed his view of the U.S. war in Iraq, seeing it now as a catalyst for democratic change across the Arab world.

Druze Muslim leader Walid Jumblatt, who is calling for an uprising against Lebanon's Syrian occupiers, is almost sounding like a neoconservative, says Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who interviewed him in Beirut Monday.

"It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq," Jumblatt told the Post columnist.

"I was cynical about Iraq," Jumblatt said. "But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world."

Jumblatt said this spark of democratic revolt is spreading.

"The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing," he said. "The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it."

In an exclusive interview with WorldNetDaily Monday, Jumblatt blamed the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri on Lebanese security officials backed by Syria.

Jumblatt said Hariri told him in a meeting two weeks ago he felt they both were in danger.

The Druze leader told WND he is calling for an "uprising for independence" demanding Damascus withdraw its nearly 20,000 troops from the country and urging the current pro-Syrian government to step down.

"We ask all in Lebanon to claim independence from Syria peacefully and democratically," said Jumblatt.

Jumblatt, in conjunction with other major figures of the anti-Syrian movement, put out a statement Friday urging the "dismissal of the government, which has no legitimacy, and the formation of a transitional administration to protect the Lebanese people and ensure the immediate withdrawal of the Syrian army from Lebanon to pave the way for holding free and honest legislative elections."

[thunderous_funker]

I guess it isn't just Americans who have selective memory when it comes to the lessons of history.

I'm struggling to comprehend the comparison of the toppling of the Berlin Wall to a US military coup or which aspects of Iraqi recent events would inspire Lebanese opposition to call for independence "peacefully and democratically".

I'm happy that Lebanese opposition groups would feel emboldened. I'm questioning whether or not they learned how to achieve anything "peacefully and democratically" from the Iraq war.

[Zimphire]

Some people can see it a mile away.

While others need to take the blinders off and get glasses.

[chabig]

Well said Zimph.

[olePigeon]

Last time I checked, they elected a Shi'ite and they're declaring Islam as the basis of all law. We'll be invading them in another 4 years.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Last time I checked, they elected a Shi'ite and they're declaring Islam as the basis of all law. We'll be invading them in another 4 years.

freedom-rama-a-bebop-alula!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Last time I checked, they elected a Shi'ite and they're declaring Islam as the basis of all law. We'll be invading them in another 4 years.

Just because they are Islamic based? What are you saying?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Last time I checked, they elected a Shi'ite and they're declaring Islam as the basis of all law. We'll be invading them in another 4 years.

This is why literacy is so important: It enables people to know so much more than just what you misunderstood the last time you checked.

The Results

The Results should be officially announced today. It has become clear that the Shia list will win the most votes. The Kurdish list will come in second, and Allawi will finish third, with about twenty percent of the vote. The strong showing of the Kurdish party is demonstrative to us that not only the Shia, but the Kurds also embraced elections, and made their voice heard. It is for this reason, that Iraq will now be tilted in the favor of the two groups that have been marginalized for so long. What is very important to me is how well the Kurds did. Kurds are not as numeorus as Sunnis, but they have set themselves up to make a great impact on the future of Iraq.

This shows that while many more Sunnis voted than was expected, a good number still did not vote. I am very sad to realize this. It shows that the terrorists were able to scare some, and that some were stupid enough to listen to others and not vote. I hope that the new Iraq, whatever it is, will move Sunnis into participating more clearly. My last post on the idea of theocracy is one possible factor to acheiving this, but now that I see how strongly the Kursd have done, I realize that theocracy is even further from possibility than anyone can imagine. The Kurds are divided in their religious makeup, and it makes no sense for them to support the theocracy.

In a way the Kurdish gains may be good for Sunnis, if Shias overstep their bounds, they can provide a partner with which Sunnis can work and get back into the politica game and thus be involved with Iraq. But knowing the feelings of many Kurds after the terror of Saddam, I dont know how realistic this would be.

Sunnis are now, unfotunately going to learn the hard way the folly of not participating in the elections. The terrorists have stepped up their violence, targetting Shias especially, but I think that their attempts to badger the Shias will only result in more patience, or if the Shia get a real grip on power, bad news for the Sunnis. I can only hope that this is averted though, and that these idiotic terrorists do not cause more trouble inadvertantly, in addition to the deliberate troubles they have caused for all of Iraq.

The atmosphere has changed after the elections, but I must say that some people are growing a bit angry at the fact that the terrorists continue to make attacks. I suppose their patience is wearing thin, they thought that the election would bring a sort of overnight change, but we must all realize and remember that this is a process that will take some time.

I must apologize again for my reduction in posting frequency. I hope I can pick it up soon, things have been rough for me.

From:
Democracy in Iraq (is coming) 2/13/05 12:35 AM posted by Husayn

[olePigeon]

This is how Saddam Hussein got into power, remember? Now that the Shia are the ruling government they're not going to give it up to the Kurds.

These conflicts, wars, oppositions... they've been going on for thousands of years. Whenever one group is in power they like to stay that way. Election or no, I guarantee the Shia will not give up their position without a fight and we'll just have another Saddam Hussein.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Just because they are Islamic based? What are you saying?

Holy sh*t, never thought I'd hear that from you.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Holy sh*t, never thought I'd hear that from you.

Hear what from me? I am ASKING YOU a question. I never made a statement.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
This is how Saddam Hussein got into power, remember? Now that the Shia are the ruling government they're not going to give it up to the Kurds.

Again, this is why comprehension and literacy are so important.

The Shia are NOT the ruling party- they have a large elected body with the Kurds as a second large elected body, and the Shia aren't going to get things passed without Kurd cooperation.

The large number of elected Kurds are a check on Shia power.

Additionally, you suggested earlier that we'll see Islamic law. Sistani's office disagrees.

A spokesman for Sayyid Ali Sistani declared today that Sistani hasn't issued any statement about the Sharia law or anything related to that.

Hamed Al-Khafaf told Reuters today that the news about this issue is totally incorrect. It is falsely attributed to Sistani by the media.

Mr Al-Khafaf added that Ali Sistani called before that the Elected Assembly members are the ones who write the legislation and he asked that the legislation should respect the values of the Iraqi society including Islam.

On the same time that the network of the terrorist organizations working inside Iraq started to be disclosed and getting nearer to its big head(s), their attacks continued.

Many Iraqis have been killed today and some others kidnapped. One of those who were killed is the sons of Mithal Al-Aalosi who visited Israel lately. He escaped the assassination. One of his sons is a father for 3 children and the other is 22 years old.

Many top advisors and leaders in the network of the terrorist Zarqawi were arrested. The hook seems to get closer to him as many of his top thugs fallen.

The recent election was a vote by which the Iraqis said no to these terrorists.
The local newspapers wrote about the story of the hero Abd-Al-Amer who saw a suspicious man trying to hide something under his clothes coming towards the crowds of the people queuing for election. Amer (in his early thirties) recognised that the man is a cockroach so he carried him and run with him away from the crowd. As soon as he reached to a safer place the terrorist poppy-trapped belt went off which instantly killed Amer who saved with his life many other Iraqis. Now the Iraqis re-named the school where this incidence happed after Amer and the people asked to name the street after him.

This is the real voice of the civilised Iraqis as it was shown during the election and not the insurgents thugs.


posted by hammorabi @ 2/8/2005 01:23:31 PM

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Again, this is why comprehension and literacy are so important.

Some people only want to hear or read what they want regardless of the facts.

[thunderous_funker]

You're generalizing too much.

The Kurdish turnout was massive for one reason only, their primary plank was Kurdish independence. The Kurds will participate in a coalition government only if they are given a gree light to run their own affairs as they have been since Gulf War I and probably with even more autonomy.

That might be all well and good except for the fact that their are huge oil fields in Kurdish territory. When it comes time to share jobs and wealth generated from their oil we'll quickly find out just how cooperatives they'll be with Shias.

And you're still forgetting that the tiny Sunni vote was entirely from secular Sunnis and ex-pats voting from abroad. The Sunni tribes that have been running the country (you know, the ones killing people as we speak) didn't vote at all.

That means the insurgency worked. It effectively created a self-fulfilling prophecy. They refused to participate in a democracy that promised Shia control. Now they have a democracy under Shia majority control and the Sunni insurgency can feel utterly vindicated and energized that their worst fears have come true.

The hope of the election was that Sunnis would vote in large numbers and discover that the political process would reward them for marginalizing the insurgency. That didn't happen.

The idea that there are large numbers of Sunnis sitting on the fence who don't like the insurgency but are fearful to speak out is now largely exploded. They voted. They just voted for the insurgency by ignoring the peaceful political process that might have prevented any further escalation.

[vmarks]

You accuse me of generalizing, but I think it is you who hasn't read enough.

"Let us not forget that Iraq does have many Sunnis, Shia are majority, but we the Sunni are a very large minority. Sunni leaders have begun to realize that they must participate in the new government, for this reason they are now openly making concilliatory gestures to the government and beginning to integrate themselves. With the addition of more Sunnis to the government, it only guarantees that we will have to have a pluralistic system that look sout for all people.

I tell you all to not worry, people have worked so hard, have given so much, to be free, we are not going to turn around and elect in people who will shackle us again. And if those who we elect aim to do this, we will not stand for it, and we will deny them with as much excitement as with which we have turned our backs on the terrorists who continue to be like a hard to kill mosquito.


Democracy in Iraq (is coming) 2/8/05 1:25 AM Husayn"

[thunderous_funker]

It is generalizing to say "Sunni leaders are realizing" they should participate in the government.

Sunni leaders are also in charge of the insurgency that has declared any move towards Shia majority control (democracy) unthinkable.

The election has simply reinforced all the self-interest that is fueling the forces that could tear Iraq apart: Shia majority rule, Kurdish independence, and Sunni intrasegence.

The Sunni leaders that are speaking for moderation aren't the ones we need to worry about. Its the ones killing people that continue to be the problem and the election didn't do anything to resolve that.

[medicineman]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I guess it isn't just Americans who have selective memory when it comes to the lessons of history.

I'm struggling to comprehend the comparison of the toppling of the Berlin Wall to a US military coup or which aspects of Iraqi recent events would inspire Lebanese opposition to call for independence "peacefully and democratically".

I'm happy that Lebanese opposition groups would feel emboldened. I'm questioning whether or not they learned how to achieve anything "peacefully and democratically" from the Iraq war.

My selective memory sees a concrete wall being torn down, and a generation of people, who never tasted freedom, getting their first whiff of it. It also sees a tyrant being toppled and many generations of people getting their first chance at self rule. That the Lebanese can 'selectivly' scan history for clues to self determination is rather a good thing. I look forward to other countries learning from those who have succeeded.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by medicineman:
My selective memory sees a concrete wall being torn down, and a generation of people, who never tasted freedom, getting their first whiff of it. It also sees a tyrant being toppled and many generations of people getting their first chance at self rule. That the Lebanese can 'selectivly' scan history for clues to self determination is rather a good thing. I look forward to other countries learning from those who have succeeded.

I'm saying that their scan is so completely selective that its probably not something the US can pat itself on the back for.

I'm just taking issue with US triumphalism that this is a direct result of our actions.

More to the point, they have chosen historical examples which should clearly demonstrate that the key ingredient to successful self-determination is the self part.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some people only want to hear or read what they want regardless of the facts.

Like Christians?

[olePigeon]

I guess we'll see in couple years (or less.) I think it's all smokescreen and Iraq is going to be torn apart by its own people. Hey, this is one matter I wouldn't mind being wrong on. I'm sure I'm not giving Iraq enough credit, but I'm certain you're giving them way too much.

[medicineman]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I'm saying that their scan is so completely selective that its probably not something the US can pat itself on the back for.

I'm just taking issue with US triumphalism that this is a direct result of our actions.

More to the point, they have chosen historical examples which should clearly demonstrate that the key ingredient to successful self-determination is the self part.

Perhaps the mirror of history is not as dark as you perceive. I seem to recall a certain U.S. president meeting with a Mr. Gorbachev in Reykjavik. I might posit that that was the beginning of the end of the cold war. And only recently, photos of a tyrant being pulled from a hole in Iraq. I would give my country two thumbs up for those actions and for the results which followed. Giving a 'leg up' to an oppressed people would be a noble thing.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by medicineman:
Perhaps the mirror of history is not as dark as you perceive. I seem to recall a certain U.S. president meeting with a Mr. Gorbachev in Reykjavik. I might posit that that was the beginning of the end of the cold war. And only recently, photos of a tyrant being pulled from a hole in Iraq. I would give my country two thumbs up for those actions and for the results which followed. Giving a 'leg up' to an oppressed people would be a noble thing.

Please, please. I've told Zimphire to do this. Please pick up a history book (any history book) on U.S. foreign policy from the 1850s and up.

[macintologist]

I think you're really misunderstanding that country. There's no doubt that a little inspiration came from seeing the Iraq vote, but the political freedoms in that country are far more organic and have been built up over a great number of years. Lebanon is the most progressive Arab country, where women's rights are comparable to any European country, where zero income tariffs and a currency pegged to the dollar provide for a stable economy and heavy imports, especially from America. Anti-semitism is peculiar there. Inside the Virgin Mega Store in downtown Beirut I saw copies of The Pianist and Life is Beautiful.

Lebanon is a beautiful country that just needed a little push to bring itself on the path to democracy. That push was the assassination of Hariri, the Lebanese George Washington. Now Christians, Muslims, Druze and Armenians are all united for a common goal, to drive out the Syrians. If there is any outside event that is really inspiring the Lebanese, it is the Orange Revolution of Ukraine.

Furthermore, there is no scientific data to confirm that the Iraq vote inspired many Lebanese to take to the streets and demand independence. It's incredible that someone like Jumblatt who had no credibility among the right-wing press is now somehow the Oracle. In conclusion, your assessment of Lebanon was way off. Try traveling to the country first.

(how's that for a SimeyTheLimey styled post? )

[medicineman]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Please, please. I've told Zimphire to do this. Please pick up a history book (any history book) on U.S. foreign policy from the 1850s and up.

Sorry. I only respond to substantive arguements.

[medicineman]

Originally posted by macintologist:
I think you're really misunderstanding that country. There's no doubt that a little inspiration came from seeing the Iraq vote, but the political freedoms in that country are far more organic and have been built up over a great number of years. Lebanon is the most progressive Arab country, where women's rights are comparable to any European country, where zero income tariffs and a currency pegged to the dollar provide for a stable economy and heavy imports, especially from America. Anti-semitism is peculiar there. Inside the Virgin Mega Store in downtown Beirut I saw copies of The Pianist and Life is Beautiful.

Lebanon is a beautiful country that just needed a little push to bring itself on the path to democracy. That push was the assassination of Hariri, the Lebanese George Washington. Now Christians, Muslims, Druze and Armenians are all united for a common goal, to drive out the Syrians. If there is any outside event that is really inspiring the Lebanese, it is the Orange Revolution of Ukraine.

Furthermore, there is no scientific data to confirm that the Iraq vote inspired many Lebanese to take to the streets and demand independence. It's incredible that someone like Jumblatt who had no credibility among the right-wing press is now somehow the Oracle. In conclusion, your assessment of Lebanon was way off. Try traveling to the country first.

I think your are arguing about which domino toppled which other domino and in what order.

[vmarks]

http://news.bostonherald.com/interna...rticleid=70787

BEIRUT, Lebanon - With shouts of ``Syria out!,'' more than 25,000 flag-waving protesters massed outside Parliament on Monday in a dramatic display of defiance that swept out Lebanon's pro-Syrian government two weeks after the assassination of a former prime minister.
Cheering broke out among the demonstrators in Martyrs' Square when they heard Prime Minister Omar Karami's announcement on loudspeakers that the government was stepping down. Throughout the day, protesters handed out red roses to soldiers and police.
Many in Lebanon accuse Syria and Karami's government of being behind former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri's Feb. 14 slaying and the death of 16 others in a huge bombing, pressing hard in the two weeks since his death for the government to resign and for Syria to withdraw its roughly 15,000 troops positioned in Lebanon.
``We want no other army in Lebanon except the Lebanese army!'' protesters chanted, climbing the martyrs' statue and praying before candles at Hariri's flower-covered grave, which lies at the piazza's edge.
Karami's Cabinet will continue as a caretaker government. The next step is for the president to appoint a prime minister after consulting with parliament members. The new prime minister consults parliamentary blocs to form a Cabinet that must withstand a parliamentary vote of confidence.
Karami replaced the billionaire Hariri, credited with playing a key role in rebuilding Lebanon after its devastating 1975-1990 civil war.
``Today the government fell. Tomorrow, it's the one huddled in Anjar,'' opposition leader Elias Atallah told the crowd to cheers, referring to the Syrian intelligence chief based in the eastern Lebanese town of Anjar. He said the opposition will continue its actions until all demands are met.
The protesters went further, immediately shouting for the resignation of pro-Syrian President Emile Lahoud.
``Lahoud, your turn is coming!'' they said.
Others in the sea of red, white and green flags chanted, ``Syria Out!'' and ``Freedom, sovereignty, independence!''
The protest continued after nightfall, complete with images broadcast on a large video screen, a scene that recalled anti-government protests in Ukraine late last year. Banners proclaimed in English: ``United We Stand, Divided We Fall.''
Lahoud's six-year term was renewed in September by Parliament, under apparent Syrian pressure to change the constitution, which banned further terms. A U.N. resolution demanded Lebanon hold presidential elections, Syrian troops pull out of Lebanon and Syria stop interfering in Lebanese affairs.
``The battle is not over. It is just beginning. We want to know who killed Prime Minister Hariri,'' opposition legislator Faris Saeed said, addressing the crowd.
The crowd, some flashing ``V for victory'' signs, responded loudly and in unison: ``Syria! Syria!''
Syrian President Bashar Assad said in remarks published Monday that a Syrian troop withdrawal depended on achieving peace in the Middle East.
``Under a technical point of view, the withdrawal can happen by the end of the year,'' Assad told the Italian newspaper La Repubblica. ``But under a strategic point of view, it will only happen if we obtain serious guarantees. In one word: peace.''

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by medicineman:
Sorry. I only respond to substantive arguements.

Apparently not. Pick up the book anyway, or are you afraid?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Apparently not. Pick up the book anyway, or are you afraid?

Sheesh, you recommended a history book, any history book. Then you start calling people cowards?

Heck of a way to frame an argument.

Anyway, the Lebanese are saying the Iraq election, the Afghani election, the assassination of a former PM by Syria, are all events pushing them to kick out the Syrians and move to democracy.

They're saying it, and it's more than just coincidence that now is the time the citizenry there is making such a large push to get the current leadership there to resign.

You want to encourage people to pick up a history book, won't recommend any specific one, and aren't paying attention to the history in the making.

[medicineman]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Apparently not. Pick up the book anyway, or are you afraid?

I have many history books on my bookshelves. They are notes of those relating occurrances of the past. Since I have lived through much that has occured since the late 1930's, just what is it that you are trying to teach me? Shoud I relate what I have experienced? US policies that have defeated Nazism in Europe? The freeing of millions there? The defeat of expansionist Japan? The start of a new nation? The fall of communism? The opening of the world to that population? The creation of a free South Korea? A debacle in Vietnam? Steps to freedom in the mideast? The many countries moving towards an improved lifestye as a result of our system of government?

Those are my highlights. Some good, some bad. Yet the balance sheet tips in our favor. We've spilled our blood, freed countless peoples and have asked for nothing more than the ground to bury them, as Colin Powell so eloquently put it.

I don't where you're coming from, unless you just enjoy bashing the US. I feel a pride in my country's history.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by medicineman:
I have many history books on my bookshelves. They are notes of those relating occurrances of the past. Since I have lived through much that has occured since the late 1930's, just what is it that you are trying to teach me? Shoud I relate what I have experienced? US policies that have defeated Nazism in Europe? The freeing of millions there? The defeat of expansionist Japan? The start of a new nation? The fall of communism? The opening of the world to that population? The creation of a free South Korea? A debacle in Vietnam? Steps to freedom in the mideast? The many countries moving towards an improved lifestye as a result of our system of government?

Manifest Destiny; the reason we created the C.I.A. in the first place; the reason we entered WWII to defeat Nazism (and reasons before Japan bombed us for sending supplies to UK); why Communism was a threat to capitalism and free trade; our involvement in Cuba; Bay of Pigs; why dictatorships are a threat to capitalism and free trade in the mideast; how many countries were fine the way they were before western ideology and capitalist vision were literally forced upon them.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Sheesh, you recommended a history book, any history book. Then you start calling people cowards?

I said foreign policy specifically. If you had you wouldn't be spewing absolute nonsense.

[medicineman]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Manifest Destiny; the reason we created the C.I.A. in the first place; the reason we entered WWII to defeat Nazism (and reasons before Japan bombed us for sending supplies to UK); why Communism was a threat to capitalism and free trade; our involvement in Cuba; Bay of Pigs; why dictatorships are a threat to capitalism and free trade in the mideast; how many countries were fine the way they were before western ideology and capitalist vision were literally forced upon them.

The CIA (OSS) was formed in 1942 by FDR. In 1946-7, Pres. Truman split foreign and domestic intelligence between the FBI and CIA. ( http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/ciahist.htm). Japan, in part, aside from the goal of Asian supremacy, attacked Pearl Harbor because of the US embargo of oil and steel to the Empire. Shortly thereafter, Germany declared war on the US. The Bay of Pigs is considered a Kennedy fiasco. Non-democratic countries are hardly a threat to capitalism and free trade. A quick look at the countries of the world gdp would put your fears to rest. ( http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/i...ank/PIBH2.html ) As for another country's citizen's happiness, I have no way to answer. Although I would find it rather difficult to get an honest opinion from someone under despotic control.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by medicineman:
.... Non-democratic countries are hardly a threat to capitalism and free trade. A quick look at the countries of the world gdp would put your fears to rest. ( http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/i...ank/PIBH2.html ) ...

Wow. Just Wow.

How anyone can read any credible text of US history since 1932 and make this statement is simply stunning.

The number one reason US nationalists and non-interventionists opposed entry into WWII was because it was perceived as bailing out Wall Street and pandering to US defense industry interests--not to mention fighting to preserve the British Empire.

After the Nye committe hearings, some GOP congressmen and the American Legion actually sponsered a bill to nationalize the US defense industry to remove the profit-motive from war. They believed that interventionists were purely motivated by economic interests.

Have you even read the Truman or Eisenhower doctrines? Or NSC-68?

The universal opinion of the liberal internationalists of the post-WWII era was that liberal capitalism could not survive if command economies aligned with USSR dominated eurasia and that economic isolation would eventually require dramatic changes in our political system to limit personal liberty and free markets.

The cold war was about economic survival plain and simple. Its all there in black and white.

[medicineman]

The number one reason US nationalists and non-interventionists opposed entry into WWII was because it was perceived as bailing out Wall Street and pandering to US defense industry interests--not to mention fighting to preserve the British Empire.

Perhaps this may help you somewhat: http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-go...ve-preWWII.htm
[b][quote]
After the Nye committe hearings, some GOP congressmen and the American Legion actually sponsered a bill to nationalize the US defense industry to remove the profit-motive from war. They believed that interventionists were purely motivated by economic interests.

Have you even read the Truman or Eisenhower doctrines? Or NSC-68?

This may also help you with the Truman Doctrine: http://tri.army.mil/tsac/truman.htm And also: http://historicaltextarchive.com/sec...&artid=607

The universal opinion of the liberal internationalists of the post-WWII era was that liberal capitalism could not survive if command economies aligned with USSR dominated eurasia and that economic isolation would eventually require dramatic changes in our political system to limit personal liberty and free markets.

See above.

As you so rightly say: Its all there in black and white.

[thunderous_funker]

Thanks for posting my argument back to me. I'll take it you're in agreement.

non-democratic countries are VERY much a threat to US economic stability. That would be the principle lesson of WWII and the foundation of the Cold War.