[macintologist]

This is for all you liberals out there. We hear you gripe and moan daily about the freedoms we have in the country and how much you hate Bush, his policies, etc.

This is your chance: lay it all out. Your own Utopia. How things should be (not in an idealistic sense, where murder never happens, etc.) and how they should be run. Political structure. Dealing with conflics. Power levels.

Let's hear it.

This is what I think:

I believe in individual rights and personal responsibility. I believe in returning the federal gov't to its proper role of protecting our rights, not limiting them.

Economics and Gov't Structure

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked have no such concern
-Proverbs

First of all, income tax should be eliminated, and the federal gov't should be reduced 90%. Income tax is institutionalized theft of the fruits of our labor. The 16th amendment should be repealed. Perhaps there could be a national sales tax but I would prefer the fed gov't to get its funds from excise taxes and trade tariffs. Repressive taxes and regulations that we have now destroy competition, keep the poor man down and raise the bar to success. I would make sure the budget was properly balanced. Eliminate the IRS, Dept. of Education, Dept. of Agriculture, Securities and Exchange Commission, and all these useless federal agencies that have no constitutional basis to exist in the first place. We should withdraw from the WTO. Rather than have some bureaucratic globalist organization determine the rules of trade, there should be complete free trade with other nations without hinderance. I would repeal the Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare Acts, and replace them with private healthcare which is more afforable and more efficient to every citizen. Private charities would also have more money floating around to give to the poor. Any and all welfare will be ended. Welfare just gets people dependent on gov't. It's best if people were self-reliant instead. If someone needs welfare they can seek aid from a private charity.

Military / Foreign Policy
Cut the military budget by 85% or so, bring all our sons and daughters home as quickly and safely as possible. Adopt Jefersonian foreign policy doctrine: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none."

The role of the military should be to protect the United States, ie. man our borders with Mexico and Canada, prevent illegal immigration, ie defend the United States from attack. The role of the military should not be to become involved in protracted wars of aggression overseas.

Education
Education should be completely privatized and handed over to free enterprise. Public education to cease and desist. This would increase competition, lower the costs of schools, textbooks, bad teachers wouldn't make it and would be fired and be forced to rethink themselves. Good teachers would have incentive to perform well with payraises. Remember, there would be no income taxes, so teachers would make 20-30% more than they make now, simply from tax breaks.

Civil Rights
We should return the United States to our proud tradition of protecting our rights afforded to us in the Bill of Rights. I would repeal any and all gun control laws which are a gross violation of the 2nd amendment. I would repeal the Patriot Act, any legislation which violates the Exclusionary Rule, which violates Haebeus Corpus, the right of the accused shall be protected. I would make sure gov't would stay out of social issues such as gay marriage. I would get gov't out of marriage completely. Marriage licenses are an egregious violation of our civil liberties. Marriage is a contract of the soul, not a contract for gov't to set its terms for. I would repeal the Civil Rights Act which is a gross violation of our private property rights. The gov't shouldn't be able to tell us what we can do with our private property.

War on Drugs
I would end the unconstitutional destructive war on drugs which has cost the fed gov't tens of billions in wasted funds every year which has raised the number of nonviolent offenders in prison almost 3 fold since the 80s. All drugs will be legalized as they used to be before prohibition. Medical marijuana will be freely available. The gov't has no right to tell what a private citizen can do to his/her body, just as long as that private citizen realizes the consequences of his/her actions. More gov't interference just worsens the problem. Look at prohibtion, gov't interference created the mafia. The gov't is doing the same thing with drug lords. This has got to stop.

Maybe more to come

[SimpleLife]

deleted for unnecessary rudeness. sorry.

[CD Hanks]

Ya know something, I agree with most of it.

[demograph68]

I'm skeptical about the education part but besides that, I agree.

[nath]

Originally posted by macintologist:
I would prefer the fed gov't to get its funds from excise taxes and trade tariffs.

Originally posted by macintologist:
Education
Education should be completely privatized and handed over to free enterprise. Public education to cease and desist. This would increase competition, lower the costs of schools, textbooks, bad teachers wouldn't make it and would be fired and be forced to rethink themselves. Good teachers would have incentive to perform well with payraises. Remember, there would be no income taxes, so teachers would make 20-30% more than they make now, simply from tax breaks.[/B]

Why not use the trade tariffs to fund an improved education system? Private enterprise would get as much benefit as the country from a more educated population. And teachers wouldn't have to spend that extra 20-30% in wages on the tuition of their own kids.

Agree with some of it though.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by macintologist:
First of all, income tax should be eliminated, and the federal gov't should be reduced 90%. Income tax is institutionalized theft of the fruits of our labor.

I'm not a liberal, but this is what I think anyway:

Dividends from corporate accounts is not labor. There needs to be a restructuring of income tax, but not a complete removal of it. Perhaps no income tax up to a certain point, but then increased taxes on unearned income, interest, and dividends from corporate accounts, as well as lottery winnings and casinos.

Repressive taxes and regulations that we have now destroy competition, keep the poor man down and raise the bar to success.

I sort of agree on the taxes, but not regulations. I put peoples' health at #1 followed by the environment at #2. I don't believe there are enough regulations, actually.

I would make sure the budget was properly balanced.

A little hard to do when you vote for people who print and spend with no end in site. Where's the budget money going to come from when you've removed all the income tax and trade taxes?

We should withdraw from the WTO.

Absolutely.

Rather than have some bureaucratic globalist organization determine the rules of trade, there should be complete free trade with other nations without hinderance.

You had me up until the free trade part. I would only support FAIR trade. As I mentioned before, free trade just makes it so other countries can exploit their people and especially children for products just as easily as the next.

I would repeal the Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare Acts, and replace them with private healthcare which is more afforable and more efficient to every citizen.

That doesn't work. With that system only people who are well-to-do would be able to afford health care. Of course, that could be your whole reason, to establish America's elite at the top while the poor and working class die off.

The problem with privatizing everything is that rates will go up. The reason (and this is why health care is expensive now) is that when an uninsured person ends up in the hospital and can't pay the bill, your premiums go up. You end up paying for their insurance anyway with the hiked premiums. Since you're going to pay for it already, why not just set up a universal health care system?

Private charities would also have more money floating around to give to the poor. Any and all welfare will be ended. Welfare just gets people dependent on gov't. It's best if people were self-reliant instead. If someone needs welfare they can seek aid from a private charity.

That's an extremely tough one. I know of a few people who are on wellfare for legitimate reasons. A friend of my mom's is on wellfare because after she had two kids she broke her back in an accident, then her husband left her when she couldn't have kids anymore. Now she's paralyzed and can't really work, has to pay her ongoing medical bills, plus she has two children she has to take care of. A revision of wellfare I think would be more in order. More audits on people exploiting the system.

Military / Foreign Policy
Cut the military budget by 85% or so, bring all our sons and daughters home as quickly and safely as possible. Adopt Jefersonian foreign policy doctrine: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none."

The role of the military should be to protect the United States, ie. man our borders with Mexico and Canada, prevent illegal immigration, ie defend the United States from attack. The role of the military should not be to become involved in protracted wars of aggression overseas.

I'd go with that.

Education
Education should be completely privatized and handed over to free enterprise. Public education to cease and desist. This would increase competition, lower the costs of schools, textbooks, bad teachers wouldn't make it and would be fired and be forced to rethink themselves. Good teachers would have incentive to perform well with payraises. Remember, there would be no income taxes, so teachers would make 20-30% more than they make now, simply from tax breaks.

Again, this would just separate the classes. The poor, working class would stay uneducated and ignorant while the social elite get an education. It'd be medieval Catholicism all over again.

Civil Rights
I would repeal the Patriot Act, any legislation which violates the Exclusionary Rule, which violates Haebeus Corpus, the right of the accused shall be protected.

Yes.

I would make sure gov't would stay out of social issues such as gay marriage.

I think the government is fine, it's religion that needs to keep its big fat head out of it.

I would repeal the Civil Rights Act which is a gross violation of our private property rights.

Absolutely NOT. Amendments, fine, but not a repeal. Women and minorities need the Civil Rights Act to ensure their rights are protected because the Constitution does not.

The gov't shouldn't be able to tell us what we can do with our private property.

To an extent, I think they should. I don't want some assclown building a homemade nuclear plant in his backyard, nor do I want ammonia billowing out of his fertilization pile in his front yard.

[finboy]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
but then increased taxes on unearned income, interest, and dividends from corporate accounts

But then where would people work? How would people save for retirement?

Of course those things don't represent "labor" today, but they do represent labor & effort in the past. When you invest your money and expect to be paid interest, you don't "labor" but you still get something back -- or you wouldn't invest in the first place.

It sounds good to "tax the rich" until you find out that you're one of them.

[Millennium]

Interesting. Here, we share many similarities and many differences

Economy
I'm more in favor of an approach which shifts the burden of taxation away from individuals and towards businesses: in essence paying nor for the right to exist, but the right to do business. Deductions would of course be allowed for legitimate expenses, but the number of deductions would be brought to a minimum.

I would not abolish the IRS, because somebody needs to process the money which the government takes in, but under this system ir could be radically shrunk and folded into the SEC. Speaking of the SEC, I would combine IRS and SEC filings into a single publicly-available form, to discourage "creative" accounting practices.

I would abolish the doctrine of corporate personhood. Corporations and people are different entities, and laws which are made to provide for one do not necessarily work well for the other. This would require some substantial changes to the wording of contract law, but this is not an insurmountable task, and is necessary for some of the other reforms I would enact.

Intellectual Property
I would restore copyrights and patents to their original terms (14 years, with copyrights renewable for another 14). The purpose of these tools is, as stated in the Constitution, "to promote the progress of science and useful arts", and as originally implemented they did this well. However, in recent decades they have been abused to discourage competition and innovation, chiefly through the effectively-indefinite extensions which have been granted. This must end.

On the subject of software, I would rule that source code could be copyrighted as speech, but not patented. This provides adequate protection for the owner's actual work without discouraging competition.

Health Care
I do not believe that enslaving doctors to the government is the best way to provide universal coverage. Instead, I would require all businesses of all kinds to offer health insurance to all employees (which the employee may choose to decline, but there may be no penalty for acceptance nor bonus for declining). In exchange, I would make the costs of this insurance completely tax-deductible.

Although some would call me an economic libertarian, I am not opposed to regulation when an entire industry has been shown to be acting dishonorably. This could be said of the drug industry, and these would be the major target of any health-care reforms I would pursue.

Military and Foreign Policy
Here, we mostly agree. I would bring home all foreign troops not involved in extant conflicts or embassy defense. Some of these would be used to beef up border defense, which I'll explain in a moment.

The end goal of this would be a major restructuring of the Armed Forces. Standing forces would be reduced to what is necessary for border defense and maintenance of equipment, plus special forces (which must train constantly in order to maintain their prowess, and so a non-standing special forces unit is impractical). Presumably the small complement of forces assigned to embassies would also need to be kept. The rest would become part of the reserves. This drastically increases the size of the reserves, but shrinks the size of the standing forces by just as much. End result: better homeland defense, minimal foreign presence, and all at a lower cost.

We are in more or less complete agreement on the rest of foreign policy. I would include backing out of the UN and treating it as a friendly but foreign power. As a final geature, I would probably donate them a piece of land with air, sea, and rail access, built at our expense if necessary, and an agreement to defend that land if attacked; they could relocate their headquarters to this place.

Education
I would dearly love to privatize education, but the fact is that the current system is not in a state where it could ethically be sold, nor bought by anyone in his right mind. Over a period of years, money would need to be spent to get it up to a state where it might actually be attractive to buyers. However, I would immediately begin researching ways in which this could be done, so that it could be done as soon as possible.

Civil Rights
Here we are in pretty much complete agreement. While my personal beliefs conflict with this platform at points, they do so only in areas which I do not believe should be the province of law anyway, and so the point is moot.

War on Drugs
Here is the only area where we disagree. Actual threats to society are rare nowadays, but I do believe that drug abuse is one of them, and as such this 'war' is worth fighting.

[Mithras]

macintologist: From what you describe, it sounds to me like you want our country to look like Peru. I lived there for a year from 2000-2001, and it has:
* weak central government with very limited tax-collection
* pretty much corporate trade impugnity
* a non-interventionist military (though one that spends a little more time torturing civilians than I think you would prefer)
* privatized education, where the haves and have-nots educate their children as they can afford to
* ubiquitous guns
* freedom to discriminate based on color and ethnicity
* a bit too much war on drugs for your liking, but certainly lots of drugs

Let me tell you, it's not much of a model society. Yes, Peru has ingrained problems that don't have to do with its lassaiz faire social and economic structure, but that structure definitely serves to keep it chaotic, poor, ill-suited to economic development, utterly repressive, and with a self-perpetuating class system.


Millenium, I am intrigued. You have a newsletter? Seriously, this version of things seems tempting to me...

...I'll try to come up with my own picture soon.

[Wiskedjak]

I nominate this thread for "Most Civil Political Thread Ever With The Words Liberal Or Conservative In The Title"

[Saad]

Privatizing the schools does not seem that scary. Already, around $6000 (in TN) is spent per student. That's pretty reasonable. Presumeably, those who can't afford tuition (those on fee waiver/free lunch today) could have theirs subsidized by the government.

[deej5871]

Originally posted by macintologist:

Economics and Gov't Structure

Eliminate the IRS, Dept. of Education, Dept. of Agriculture, Securities and Exchange Commission, and all these useless federal agencies that have no constitutional basis to exist in the first place.

Exactly how far would this go? I mean, I'm all for eliminating useless agencies, but obviously there are ones that serve a purpose (i.e. the FDIC).

[ebuddy]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Interesting. Here, we share many similarities and many differences

Some good points below, but some I'd like to nit-pick a smackeral.

Economy
I'm more in favor of an approach which shifts the burden of taxation away from individuals and towards businesses: in essence paying nor for the right to exist, but the right to do business. Deductions would of course be allowed for legitimate expenses, but the number of deductions would be brought to a minimum.

I disagree wholly on this. I believe in either a flat tax or a simple sales tax. I think we make a mistake by assuming we can shift tax burden from individuals to businesses. Individuals drive businesses. We risk running wages downward requiring more stringent regulation on minimum wage requirements, while running cost of products and services upward. Businesses recieve tax breaks for very good reason. We should continue to encourage those considering entrepreneurialism. They are the employers and providers for the individual, the employee. They are the donators to charity. They are the life's blood of this country.

I would not abolish the IRS, because somebody needs to process the money which the government takes in, but under this system ir could be radically shrunk and folded into the SEC. Speaking of the SEC, I would combine IRS and SEC filings into a single publicly-available form, to discourage "creative" accounting practices.

This sounds fine to me.

I would abolish the doctrine of corporate personhood. Corporations and people are different entities, and laws which are made to provide for one do not necessarily work well for the other. This would require some substantial changes to the wording of contract law, but this is not an insurmountable task, and is necessary for some of the other reforms I would enact.

In many cases corporations are the only effective deterrent to run-away government. I think by decreasing influence of business, we in essence increase the role of government. People are embolded and encouraged to start "corporations" for themselves. They can even create "anti-corporation" corporations. I'm not sure I understand how corporate personhood equates to loss of personal freedoms. I can understand where this corporate personhood trampled on the rights of the individual in regards to slaves and slave ownership, but those days are gone. How does corporate personhood trample on our rights as individuals today? I'm not educated on this and perhaps someone here could help.

Intellectual Property
I would restore copyrights and patents to their original terms (14 years, with copyrights renewable for another 14). The purpose of these tools is, as stated in the Constitution, "to promote the progress of science and useful arts", and as originally implemented they did this well. However, in recent decades they have been abused to discourage competition and innovation, chiefly through the effectively-indefinite extensions which have been granted. This must end.

I agree here.

On the subject of software, I would rule that source code could be copyrighted as speech, but not patented. This provides adequate protection for the owner's actual work without discouraging competition.

Health Care
I do not believe that enslaving doctors to the government is the best way to provide universal coverage. Instead, I would require all businesses of all kinds to offer health insurance to all employees (which the employee may choose to decline, but there may be no penalty for acceptance nor bonus for declining). In exchange, I would make the costs of this insurance completely tax-deductible.

There is lower 'risk' involved the higher the base of premium payers. "individuals" by virtue of demographic and/or occupation should be able to 'corporate' themselves in order to lower "risk" by insurer, thus keeping premiums low and benefits high. I don't think Business-sponsored insurance is necessary for any reason other than to be more appealing to the discriminating individual shopping jobs, but some changes are in order to be sure. By requiring all businesses (large and small) to offer insurance benefits, you discourage one from wanting the better job at the better business. I had my choice of several businesses, I chose one with more comprehensive health coverage. This is what drives competition. In short, I'm not seeing smaller government in your ideal, I'm seeing a government that is beginning to grow exponentially with each paragraph and a blatent disregard for the risk, effort, and investment required to be a business owner. Business ownership does not equate to a divine right of kings. Most businesses in the U.S. are small businesses, built from the ground-up by those who were not necessarily borne into wealth and comprise the majority of employers in our country. Hurt small business, hurt the individual through lower wages, higher cost in goods and services, and 'short-staffing' leading to larger unemployment overall. If not, where then does business get the money to pay increased insurance requirements and greater tax burden? At some point, the individual needs to do for himself.

Although some would call me an economic libertarian, I am not opposed to regulation when an entire industry has been shown to be acting dishonorably. This could be said of the drug industry, and these would be the major target of any health-care reforms I would pursue.

Not necessarily opposed to regulating large corporations for the very reason you mentioned above. Something needs to be done here.

Military and Foreign Policy
Here, we mostly agree. I would bring home all foreign troops not involved in extant conflicts or embassy defense. Some of these would be used to beef up border defense, which I'll explain in a moment.

I'm all for bringing troops home that are basically standing guard at every post on the globe. I believe that by bringing some troops home from places other than where we are actively engaged in combat and emboldening our borders while fortifying our fruitful efforts in the Middle East would be a more efficient use of our military. I do however, have to take issue with cutting military budget by 85%. There will be new Cold Wars to be ended.

The end goal of this would be a major restructuring of the Armed Forces. Standing forces would be reduced to what is necessary for border defense and maintenance of equipment, plus special forces (which must train constantly in order to maintain their prowess, and so a non-standing special forces unit is impractical). Presumably the small complement of forces assigned to embassies would also need to be kept. The rest would become part of the reserves. This drastically increases the size of the reserves, but shrinks the size of the standing forces by just as much. End result: better homeland defense, minimal foreign presence, and all at a lower cost.

In general, I agree here.

We are in more or less complete agreement on the rest of foreign policy. I would include backing out of the UN and treating it as a friendly but foreign power. As a final geature, I would probably donate them a piece of land with air, sea, and rail access, built at our expense if necessary, and an agreement to defend that land if attacked; they could relocate their headquarters to this place.

agreed!

Education
I would dearly love to privatize education, but the fact is that the current system is not in a state where it could ethically be sold, nor bought by anyone in his right mind. Over a period of years, money would need to be spent to get it up to a state where it might actually be attractive to buyers. However, I would immediately begin researching ways in which this could be done, so that it could be done as soon as possible.

totally agreed!!!

Civil Rights
Here we are in pretty much complete agreement. While my personal beliefs conflict with this platform at points, they do so only in areas which I do not believe should be the province of law anyway, and so the point is moot.

Some form of civil rights legislation is necessary in an environment professing to be progressive, however it has gotten out of hand. We are again hiring in accordance of the color of our skin.

War on Drugs
Here is the only area where we disagree. Actual threats to society are rare nowadays, but I do believe that drug abuse is one of them, and as such this 'war' is worth fighting.

There are too many sitting behind bars for a nickel-bag of marijuana. We are hardening the otherwise harmless, propogating pushers and dealers keeping them in business, and missing out on valuable tax revenue. Marijuana a gate-way drug? Perhaps with stricter punishment for cocaine and meth we can resolve that little problem. I believe we have demonized marijuana to the point where the one who tries it and doesn't keel-over into a state of coma, decides the other drugs can't be as bad as they say. AND WHAT IF THEY'RE AS GOOD AS MARIJUANA?!?!