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Cody Dawg · May 27, 2005, 07:25 PM

Don't you like the different splash pages up at CNN? We're on number 3 now.

cc_foo · May 27, 2005, 07:43 PM

Chika Honda, Nick Baker (& countless others) and defending yourself in a foreign country

http://www.themelbournecase.com/
http://tinyurl.com/9janr
http://www.justicefornickbaker.org/index.shtml
http://www.foreignprisoners.com/

yakkiebah · May 27, 2005, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by cc_foo

Chika Honda, Nick Baker (& countless others) and defending yourself in a foreign country

http://www.themelbournecase.com/
http://tinyurl.com/9janr
http://www.justicefornickbaker.org/index.shtml
http://www.foreignprisoners.com/

Aah, and there is that poor dutch guy: Machiel Kuyt.

This guy has quite a reputation in the criminal underworld in Amsterdam and is far from innocent.

Here is an idea: respect the law in those countries and don't smuggle drugs.

von Wrangell · May 27, 2005, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

NO, you are NOT.

If someone sets you up - plants the drugs there without your knowledge or permission - then you are NOT guilty. Saying that someone is guilty for a crime that they did not commit is stupid.

I take it you don't fly that often internationally. The laws are very clear. You are responsible for your own luggage. Doesn't matter if someone puts something in your luggage it is and will be treated like your own luggage.

Or would accept it if the shoebomber™ said it wasn't his shoes but that someone switched it when he took a nap before the flight? Would you accept if someone is caught with a bomb in his luggage saying that someone planted it there? Hell no. You are responsible for your own luggage. There may be some mitigating circumstances(like she is not getting the death penalty IIRC) but you are still responsible for your luggage. No ifs or buts, that is just the way it is and every traveller knows(or should know) that.

Cody Dawg · May 27, 2005, 08:45 PM

Oh, come on. I have about 100,000 miles of flying under my belt - literally.

Never once thought that I might be held responsible for someone stuffing prohibited items or drugs in my belongings. Seriously.

Cody Dawg · May 27, 2005, 08:46 PM

Oh, and I hate to fly, also.

I'm sure that the next time I fly I'll probably die of a DVT.

von Wrangell · May 27, 2005, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Oh, come on. I have about 100,000 miles of flying under my belt - literally.

Never once thought that I might be held responsible for someone stuffing prohibited items or drugs in my belongings. Seriously.

Well you are. It's as simple as that. It may be a pretty stupid rule but that's the way it is.

pooka · May 27, 2005, 09:14 PM

It's funny to watch the threads that make the heartless assholes sound like bleeding hearts and the bleeding hearts sound like heartless assholes.

edit:
no offense.

SVass · May 27, 2005, 09:15 PM

The law and your legal defenses depend upon the country/state. If you have money, you can get a fair trial in the US. In Indonesia, Pakistan, or Iraq, you get a judge who does what he pleases. In the US military, if you are an officer, the general declares you not guilty. If you are an "illegal combatant" like a taxi driver in Afghanistan, you may get killed. The world is a rotten place. Don't fly or drive to a rotten country or state. sam

ironknee · May 27, 2005, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Oh, come on. I have about 100,000 miles of flying under my belt - literally.

I love u cody (let's get ready for the next stevenote) and i KNOW what you mean but i have to ask:

please correct me, anyone, is this an example of the wrong way to use the expression, "literally"? cody, you have the miles but they are not REALLY under your belt....er...are they? and if they are why?

sending good vibes

oh about Schapelle, man she is cute. but imagine if u were coming here to the us and say, "oops i don't know where that came from"...

Cody Dawg · May 27, 2005, 09:32 PM

You're right!

They wouldn't fit, would they (the miles)?

ironknee · May 27, 2005, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You're right!

They wouldn't fit, would they (the miles)?

You STILL are the best

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 12:13 AM

So are you.

I guess we both belong to the Mutual Admiration Club, don't we?

Night-night.

Warung · May 28, 2005, 02:52 AM

After having read up on the case I'm almost 100% sure that those drugs weren't hers, and that she was used as a mule by some asshats.

But regardless of whether she is a drug trafficer or not, - she shouldn't be in prsion for carrying 4 kilos of pot. Not even 5 minutes, let alone 20 years.

There is a reason why these places have such harsh drug laws, - and it isn't because they want to keep their countries "clean".

I really hope there is a way that she can win the appeal, and the people who planted the weed (including probably some high ranking Australian and Indonisian govt. officials) will be held responsible for what they did (and probably are still doing).

Sidenote: Getting hold of a oz. of pot in Kuta is easier than buying a can of soda. I actually had to physically restrain people from pushing it on to me on a few occasions, which isn't that big of a deal, since I'm used to being around drugs.

I can only say this again and again, - making drugs ilegal is total bull5hit and ruins more lives than drug "abuse" does.

TETENAL · May 28, 2005, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The laws are very clear. You are responsible for your own luggage. Doesn't matter if someone puts something in your luggage it is and will be treated like your own luggage.

That's silly. You don't have your luggage under control all the time when flying, so you can't make absolutely sure there's never anything planted in it. Something you don't know and can not avoid you can not be held responsible for.

But since "the law is very clear" you can post a link to it?

Athens · May 28, 2005, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Cody, if a foreign national commits a crime in the US, should they be judged by the laws of their nation, or the laws of the US?

Any visitor who commits a crime should be sent back to there home land to be tried and put in jail and banned from every coming back. They set foot in the country again that country can do as they please to them as its there fualt for coming back. Now some one who moves to another country and commits a crime, thats a bit different. Live under the rules of where you live.

Athens · May 28, 2005, 04:56 AM

btw I work at a hotel, I have guests that get here all the time and end up having there bags sent over 5 - 10 hours later. In that time anything can happen to it. I dont see it being uncommon for some one working at a air port to smuggle stuff into bags which a counter part at the destination air port to retrieve it.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

Any visitor who commits a crime should be sent back to there home land to be tried and put in jail and banned from every coming back. They set foot in the country again that country can do as they please to them as its there fualt for coming back. Now some one who moves to another country and commits a crime, thats a bit different. Live under the rules of where you live.

And, what if the crime they commit in your country isn't a crime in their country?

Athens · May 28, 2005, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

And, what if the crime they commit in your country isn't a crime in their country?

More reason for them to be deported away and case closed. How can you fualt a person for doing something that isnt a crime where they come from, for example local cops almost never ticket Americans from states that dont have seat belt laws they usally just tell them its the law here please buckle up, and thats cuz where they are from they wouldnt think about that as being illegal.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 05:48 AM

I thinking more in terms of crimes such as murder.

TETENAL · May 28, 2005, 05:54 AM

What about fraud? Let's say it's not illegal to cheat on people in a certain way in some African country. A citizen of that country goes to America, steals millions from American citizens and has sent it back to his country. You would just send this guy back to his home country?

What about rape or child abuse?

Do you think American citizens would be content when such criminals would just be sent home?

Athens · May 28, 2005, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

What about fraud? Let's say it's not illegal to cheat on people in a certain way in some African country. A citizen of that country goes to America, steals millions from American citizens and has sent it back to his country. You would just send this guy back to his home country?

What about rape or child abuse?

Do you think American citizens would be content when such criminals would just be sent home?

I dont know which is better, spending millions to house, feed and guard a raper or child abuser or sending him home and being done with it. Personally the idea of one of these guys being let lose after 20 years, and spending all that money to lock them up is just as sick as the crime itself. Sending them home to be delt with would be cheaper and better for the public safty not to mention some of thepunishments would be worse for them in there home countries then here in North America.

yakkiebah · 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

What about fraud? Let's say it's not illegal to cheat on people in a certain way in some African country. A citizen of that country goes to America, steals millions from American citizens and has sent it back to his country. You would just send this guy back to his home country?

What about rape or child abuse?

Do you think American citizens would be content when such criminals would just be sent home?

You're missing the point. People from your own country/relegion/ideology etc. are always innocent. As long as it's easy to identify with this person people become emotional. We simply don't know whether she's innocent or not. But i'm getting tired of this hyped-up hysteria by the media.

The same happend in the Netherlands with the guy mentioned above. Everyone was up in arms about how this guy was set-up and innocent, politicians and even the queen became involved. Until the Amsterdam police came with their report about this poor fellow: forgery, assault, taking part of criminal organisation, drugs etc.

Some criminals that knew the guy laughed their asses off and were amazed how it was possible this guy got all this attention from the media.

And yeah the punisments are harsh and i don't agree with them but the justice system isn't as idiotic as all the tear-jerkers like to believe. This happens everywhere, America, Europe, Asia etc. People have been detained for far less evidence and they all use the same "hey someone else has put that in my bag" excuse.

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 09:05 AM

But since "the law is very clear" you can post a link to it?

I love what both Athens and TETENAL had to say. Right on ->

I think that Bali needs to send that girl back to Australia to finish her sentence there. I've been reading up on the prison that she's in for an article and it's a hell hole. In fact, the food daily is nothing but rice. To get actual protein the prisoners have to buy it themselves. Apparently there is no plumbing to speak of it and it smells like a sewer, there is no air conditioning, there are flies everywhere, it is unsanitary, and there are a lot of sick people there.

What I don't understand is why the Indonesian "judges" didn't let her call any defense witnesses? THAT IS WHY THAT COUNTRY IS CORRUPT.

bubblewrap · May 28, 2005, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I've been reading up on the prison that she's in for an article and it's a hell hole. In fact, the food daily is nothing but rice. To get actual protein the prisoners have to buy it themselves. Apparently there is no plumbing to speak of it and it smells like a sewer, there is no air conditioning, there are flies everywhere, it is unsanitary, and there are a lot of sick people there.

Sounds like every flight I'm made into Detroit...

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 09:29 AM

Double

Doesn't Detroit airport just blow? In fact, if you have a layover in Detroit there is absolutely nothing to do. Detroit isn't exactly picturesque.

bubblewrap · May 28, 2005, 09:32 AM

I won't even leave my plane. I just sit and wait for fuel and PAX.

Cody Dawg · 10:24 AM

Yeah, and while you're sitting there someone comes up and sprays graffitti on the side of the jet.

(Edit my

)

bubblewrap · May 28, 2005, 09:37 AM

And takes my bling-bling spinnaz off the wheels!

Athens · May 28, 2005, 10:08 AM

im guessing its not that bad in detroit? Right?

bubblewrap · May 28, 2005, 10:13 AM

Detroit is a sesspool.

dcmacdaddy · May 28, 2005, 10:25 AM

nevermind

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 10:25 AM

And takes my bling-bling spinnaz off the wheels!

Airgun: 15 seconds and they're gone.

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 10:27 AM

Well, now you know that you ARE responsible if someone puts stuff in your luggage.
von Wrangell is right, individuals are responsible for their own luggage - no ifs, ands, or buts.

No, I'm not. That's illegal.

That's why I said, though, that I never check baggage - ever. I carry it on. That remark made about how I must not obviously fly was so off the mark. It is PRECISELY because I fly A LOT that I have learned not to check baggage.

Randman · May 28, 2005, 10:51 AM

Flying often doesn't make one a wise traveller. To not check baggage, especially if left in some place such as a hotel holding area, is folly.
And if you carry bags on, chances are that you're not flying internationally or for long durations. If you were, you'd check your baggage (or lock it up) as a matter of precaution.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I love what both Athens and TETENAL had to say. Right on ->

I think that Bali needs to send that girl back to Australia to finish her sentence there. I've been reading up on the prison that she's in for an article and it's a hell hole. In fact, the food daily is nothing but rice. To get actual protein the prisoners have to buy it themselves. Apparently there is no plumbing to speak of it and it smells like a sewer, there is no air conditioning, there are flies everywhere, it is unsanitary, and there are a lot of sick people there.

What I don't understand is why the Indonesian "judges" didn't let her call any defense witnesses? THAT IS WHY THAT COUNTRY IS CORRUPT.

So, if a foreign national in the US were to commit a serious crime in the US, you would choose to send that person back to his/her home country? What if the crime was not considered very serious in their home country and they were facing minimal charges? What if, for example, hijacking the airplanes or infidels and flying them into the high-rises of infidels was not considered a serious crime in their home country? Would you still choose to send them back rather than prosecute them in the US?

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 02:08 PM

Well, you've got a good point, Wisk.

Randman: I've been to many, many countries and the further I have to go the less I want to carry. I always travel very light and I don't check my baggage because I've found that my baggage was sometimes lost and then I don't have anything with me and have to go shopping because, inevitably, they don't get it to my hotel by the time I have to change or have a meeting. I wear a suit and roll up my blouses and skirts and slacks (3 blouses, 2 skirts, a pair of trousers, and one pair of jeans), running shorts, t-shirt, bring my toiletries, stuff in a pair of casual shoes, my sneakers for jogging, and I'm good to go. I iron everything when I get there and hang it in a closet. Believe it or not, it all fits and it fits just fine. I even stuff things in my shoes and in the outer compartment of my computer bag.

Hawkeye_a · May 28, 2005, 04:21 PM

1. Was she innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ?
or
a. did they catch her putting the drugs into the boogie board bag ?
b. did they find she had been smoking it ?
c. is it possible that someone else could have planted the pot in her luggage ? (seeing as it wasnt a carry-on)
d. The judge boasts about never leeting a person charged with drug trafficing/posession out....is that something he should be proud of ? or did he handle it on a case-case basis ?
e. Were fingerprints taken off the bag/container of the pot ? if no why not ?

2. In the legal process in Bali, Indonesia..... are you guilty by suspicion ? or is it like a witch hunt, where if someone accuses you...ur guilty.

3. In my mind, since the bag was not in her sole posession throughout the journey, that would automatically make the evidence circumstantial. The amount that was found should have no bearing to the sentence or conviction.

4. Any country that pardons terrorists(bali bombers are still alive) and gives sentences of 10 years to murderers/rapists (not sure, but read something about it recently, where some guy was given 10 for murder/rape in Bali).... dosent have a system of law that benefits it's own society.

5. Besides that. lets assume(!!!!) she actually is responsible for carrying the pot. What legal system in their right mind would sentence someone to death by a firing squad or even 20 years imprisonment?!!?!?!? bear in mind....pot is legal in a few countries in the world these days. if she was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, i reckon a monetary fine or public service or drug rehab or even banning her n her relations from the country would be far more appropriate if theyre serious about actually protecting the locals rather than just trying to make an example of her by ruining her life.

6. Why would someone try and traffic it unless the ppl there actually smoked it (the demand end). Also, what country in their right mind would bust this middle-man(woman), and not try and actually find the source of the pot in the first place !?!?!? if theyre willing to kill ppl for it, ud think theyd try and take the time to find the suppliers !!!

In conclusion, i think....the custom officials/police/law officials are in a syndicate themselves, and seeing as how there's someone else trying to compete with them...they bring them down...hard.

Im not assuming innoce or guilt when i say...that there is reasonable doubt in my mind, and if i were convinced she was guilty of transporting pot, i wouldnt sentence her to death or to 20 years !!!

Maybe the legal system in Bali is just bored...i mean dont they have terrorists, murders, rapists, etc...to worry about and try and deal with than picking on a foreigner whos accused of trafficing ?!!?!?
either way.... sentencing Corby to 20 years in my opinion will have no effect on the state of drugs in that nation, escept for maybe...raising their prices i nthe short term. So by sentencing her to 20 years...what did they accomplish ? did they stop the suppliers ? did they make their streets safer ? did they solve the drug problem ? fundamentally, who benefited from this conviction or sentence ?

P.S>> not to sound rude... but i think the bali-people actually wanted her to be sentenced to death. at least thats what they said on the news here. that alone is enough to stop me from going to Bali.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

What legal system in their right mind would sentence someone to death by a firing squad or even 20 years imprisonment?!!?!?!?

A legal system that takes it's War on Drugs seriously?

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 05:06 PM

P.S>> not to sound rude... but i think the bali-people actually wanted her to be sentenced to death. at least thats what they said on the news here. that alone is enough to stop me from going to Bali.

Good post. Where are you from?

Hawkeye_a · May 28, 2005, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

A legal system that takes it's War on Drugs seriously?

really ? Then.... why arent they looking for the source ?

And correct me if im wrong, but a 'legal system' has to ensure justice is served. What we have here is similar to the witch hunt from colonial America !! Anyone accused of posessing/trafficing drugs is guilty by suspicion apparently !! thats not justice, thats not pursuing the truth, heck thats not even TRYING to curb/solve the problem.

Imagine this: you n me in Bali, i slip a bag of pot into your pocket and then report you. does that make you guilty ? thats what COULD HAVE happened here, and how would you porve to those idiots it wasnt yours ? So they sentence you to death by firing squard or put u in prison for 20 years. have they solved a problem ? has justice been served ? are Bali streets safer ?

Like i said, if they are serious about solving the drug problem...maybe they aught to consider finding the sources.

Now onto my point....
1. Pot is like a 'borderline' drug at worst. ive tried it, never became addicted, havent suffered any side effects, which is more than i can say for my addiction to caffine !!
2. I think for extreme cases, the 'an eye for an eye' rule is acceptable (bear in mind...i said extreme). How does posession of a material/substance warrant a death penalty !?!?!?! or even 20 years, while the Bali terrorists and a murderer/rapist gets off with 10 !?! is it just me or do these ppl have their priorities messed up ?
3. Pot is legal in several countries. it's not like heroine or cocaine. So why should it be classified with them ? thats an assumption thats fundamentally wrong.
4. I'm no rebel, but in this case i beleive the law itself is just wrong... there's absolutely no rationale for it.
5. What they are saying is that a person who posessed/traffics pot(which is not considered a narcotic by many nations), is worse than murder/rape or setting off a car bomb in a civilian area.

IF THEY DO prove her guilty. (please note...the burdeon of proof is on them) beyond a reasonable doubt. the sentence should reflect the crime. The damage she COULD have done with that pot is nowhere near killing a person or even locking them up for 20 years.

The point is, the sentence does not reflect the crime, and whats worse, it does not benefit that society in anyway, as the drug overlords are still supplying the stuff, while no attempt was made to catch them (i wonder why).

Cheers.

PS>> im in Australia. but thats not why i feel strongly about this....the reason im pissed is cause...there is reasonable doubt and the sentence does not reflect the crime if she was guilty.

SVass · May 28, 2005, 06:49 PM

You are wrong! The legal system exists to keep those in power in power. In some areas, that means those caught engaging in homosexual acts in private shall be jailed. In other areas, it may mean that they should be hanged. Some argue that the LAW must be enforced. We in America still have witch hunts and we torture the witches by flushing their korans. We shoot the children of dissidents (Randy Weaver). We bomb the homes of those who object. (Iraq) Recently I heard a judge say that a defendant was fortunate in have an admitted unconstitutional charge (a stupid traffic offense) dismissed. He did not chastise the prosecution. sam

Hawkeye_a · May 28, 2005, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by SVass

You are wrong! The legal system exists to keep those in power in power. In some areas, that means those caught engaging in homosexual acts in private shall be jailed. In other areas, it may mean that they should be hanged. Some argue that the LAW must be enforced. We in America still have witch hunts and we torture the witches by flushing their korans. We shoot the children of dissidents (Randy Weaver). We bomb the homes of those who object. (Iraq) Recently I heard a judge say that a defendant was fortunate in have an admitted unconstitutional charge (a stupid traffic offense) dismissed. He did not chastise the prosecution. sam

Ummmm.... different problems, different crimes, different allegations, different people, different reasons....differnt thread ?

Edit>> just so we're clear... i'm not saying that Corby is innocent by any means. All im saying is that i have reasonable doubt, and that a propper investigation needs to be carried out before a sentence is handed down. And also that the sentence for that particular crime done not reflect the severity of the crime.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Ummmm.... different problems, different crimes, different allegations, different people, different reasons....differnt thread ?

Edit>> just so we're clear... i'm not saying that Corby is innocent by any means. All im saying is that i have reasonable doubt, and that a propper investigation needs to be carried out before a sentence is handed down. And also that the sentence for that particular crime done not reflect the severity of the crime.

Different only because of where the crimes were committed. "Reasonable doubt" may not be a part of the Bali legal system. All the more reason to not try and import drugs into that country.

It is rather arrogant to assume that American laws and processes should apply outside of America

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 08:00 PM

Imagine this: you n me in Bali, i slip a bag of pot into your pocket and then report you. does that make you guilty ? thats what COULD HAVE happened here, and how would you porve to those idiots it wasnt yours ? So they sentence you to death by firing squard or put u in prison for 20 years. have they solved a problem ? has justice been served ? are Bali streets safer ?

SUCH A GREAT POINT!

Hawkeye_a · May 28, 2005, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Different only because of where the crimes were committed. "Reasonable doubt" may not be a part of the Bali legal system. All the more reason to not try and import drugs into that country.

It is rather arrogant to assume that American laws and processes should apply outside of America

Finding the drugs on her dosent prove anything....except for the fact that they were on her. it only answers teh question "Was pot found on Corby ?" to which the answer is "yes"
the answers to "did she pack the drugs ?", "did she knowingly try to smuggle them into bali ?", etc...have not been answered. And oh yeah....why didnt the officials in Brisbane(or whereever she embarked on her journey) or Sydney not spot the drugs ?!!?!? we have sniffer dogs all over the place here. how could the pot be missed at two airports, with possibly better security than the one at bali ?!?

And as for me being arrogant..... well what do you expect ? If they actually proved she tried to smuggle the drugs, thats one thing.....they didnt even get that far before sentencing her !!! It's quite apparent that the judicial system in that country is archaic, with dosent serve any society....a place where terrorists get pardoned and have to serve 10 years while a person with pot gets 20 ?!!? And if your actually trying to defend that sort of legal system.....my discussion with you ends here.

Just becuase i chose to use the phrases used in the U.S. justice system, dosent mean that i assume that the same applies all over the world. The point i am trying to get across is that they didnt prove a damn thing. And if 'reasonable doubt' is not part of their legal system...they better get out of the stone age, cause i know a lot of ppl here who wouldnt mind going there and pointing fingers at a couple of locals and accusing them of smoking the reefer. If 'guilt by suspision' and 'guilty by accusation' are part of their legal system..... i would hardly use the terms 'justice' or 'truth' or 'legal' to describe it.

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 08:29 PM

What life is like in a Bali prison for 20 years for Schapelle Corby.

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 08:32 PM

BOYCOTT BALI!

I will never go to Bali on vacation and I urge everyone else to avoid Bali also.

I am happy to see that Australians are going to boycott Bali and hopefully their absence will ruin Bali's tourism industry.

Cody Dawg · May 28, 2005, 09:00 PM

Indonesians arrested with hundreds of fake passports.

Gee, the security in and out of Bali MUST be SO secure.

Obviously it is the people from Bali that are so poor and desperate that they are committing crimes...doesn't seem to far of a stretch to imagine that they would plant drugs on an innocent woman in order to get them into Bali in order to make money.

Wiskedjak · May 28, 2005, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

The point i am trying to get across is that they didnt prove a damn thing. And if 'reasonable doubt' is not part of their legal system...they better get out of the stone age, cause i know a lot of ppl here who wouldnt mind going there and pointing fingers at a couple of locals and accusing them of smoking the reefer. If 'guilt by suspision' and 'guilty by accusation' are part of their legal system..... i would hardly use the terms 'justice' or 'truth' or 'legal' to describe it.

All the more reason to avoid breaking the laws of the countries you are visiting.