[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Obviously it is the people from Bali that are so poor and desperate that they are committing crimes...doesn't seem to far of a stretch to imagine that they would plant drugs on an innocent woman in order to get them into Bali in order to make money.

Seems to me as though, like the Balinese courts, you are also drawing absolute conclusions based upon limited evidence.

There are two possibilities from my perspective, both equally likely based upon the evidence available to me:
1. She was indeed smuggling into Bali a substance considered illegal by the Balinese government.

2. She was used to smuggle the above substance into Bali, in which case she is guilty of not properly protecting her belongings. For example, when I fly, the luggage that I check is always locked. I also make sure that my luggage doesn't leave my sight until it is checked.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

So, if a foreign national in the US were to commit a serious crime in the US, you would choose to send that person back to his/her home country? What if the crime was not considered very serious in their home country and they were facing minimal charges? What if, for example, hijacking the airplanes or infidels and flying them into the high-rises of infidels was not considered a serious crime in their home country? Would you still choose to send them back rather than prosecute them in the US?

Is the point of Jail to A punish a person or B protect the rest of society or correct a person to return to society.

When a citizen commits a crime we cant just ship them off to another place, they have a right to be here no matter what hence the need for jail. Some times a person just doesn’t fit in, other times they have to learn a lesson to they can be returned to society. When a foreign national commits a crime we can and do have a right to ship them off. Why waste money locking them up, chances are if they come from a good country they will be punished as harsh as here, if they come from a bad country chances are they would have had a better life in our jail vs being shipped home.


Jail serves its purpose for locals, the ones we are stuck with. Either they are to dangerous to be out or they do stupid things that they have to learn a lesson.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Different only because of where the crimes were committed. "Reasonable doubt" may not be a part of the Bali legal system. All the more reason to not try and import drugs into that country.

It is rather arrogant to assume that American laws and processes should apply outside of America

I can’t believe the Australian Government isn’t doing more to protect there citizen from what is clearly a violation of due process. I am writing a letter to the UN, and to other organizations to pressure Bali to redo this trial right. Man some times I forget how lucky I am that I live where I live.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

BOYCOTT BALI!

I will never go to Bali on vacation and I urge everyone else to avoid Bali also.

I am happy to see that Australians are going to boycott Bali and hopefully their absence will ruin Bali's tourism industry.

Im going a step further im going to start bugging my MLA to bring this up in the house of commons, we as a free country should not involve ourselves in trade or any other forms of relations with countries like this.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Seems to me as though, like the Balinese courts, you are also drawing absolute conclusions based upon limited evidence.

There are two possibilities from my perspective, both equally likely based upon the evidence available to me:
1. She was indeed smuggling into Bali a substance considered illegal by the Balinese government.

2. She was used to smuggle the above substance into Bali, in which case she is guilty of not properly protecting her belongings. For example, when I fly, the luggage that I check is always locked. I also make sure that my luggage doesn't leave my sight until it is checked.

Budy unless you are with your luggage 100% of the time you can always be a victum. And don't tell me that you can carry your surf board on the plane as a carry on, at some point that will leave your sight and at that point your responsibility ends. Unless your bag is made of steal a little dinky lock on the outside wont do much. I totally believe this woman is innocent and just thinking about it pisses me off to the point I regret ever giving those people money.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

All the more reason to avoid breaking the laws of the countries you are visiting.

Great point!!

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It is rather arrogant to assume that American laws and processes should apply outside of America

SUCH A GREAT POINT!!

[Ω]

And for those wondering, I am taking the piss out of a certain members need to congratulate people who have the same view.



Personally I think they should raise the stakes and sentence her to death. She is playing on their court so must play by their rules. If they are going to impliment a prisoner exchange they may as well make the prisoner worth a bit more to the Australian public.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Ω

And for those wondering, I am taking the piss out of a certain members need to congratulate people who have the same view.



Personally I think they should raise the stakes and sentence her to death. She is playing on their court so must play by their rules. If they are going to impliment a prisoner exchange they may as well make the prisoner worth a bit more to the Australian public.

im sure your veiw would change a little if it had been you

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Athens

im sure your veiw would change a little if it had been you

GREAT POINT!!

But it's not!

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Ω

GREAT POINT!! ]

GREAT POINT!!

[Ω]

Lawyers refuse to comment on judge's tears jibe

Schapelle Corby's legal team is refusing to enter into a war of words with the chief judge of her case who has described the trial as being like a "crying competition".

"I don't want to be bothered today about this," said veteran defence lawyer Erwin Siregar today.

Lily Lubis, who headed the three-member defence team, could not be contacted.

Lubis at times was reduced to tears during the emotionally charged trial that ended on Friday with Corby being sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Corby also cried on several occasions.

While reluctant to comment on the performance of Corby's legal team, he was quoted as saying by News Limited newspapers today he had never before sat on a case in which the defence lawyers had openly wept in court.

Siregar said the defence team planned to start the formal process of an appeal tomorrow by filing paperwork with court authorities in Denpasar.

AAP

From Sydney Morning Herald

Nice defence. Really worked well. Next time use facts and arguments, and not emotion.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

2. She was used to smuggle the above substance into Bali, in which case she is guilty of not properly protecting her belongings. For example, when I fly, the luggage that I check is always locked. I also make sure that my luggage doesn't leave my sight until it is checked.

I agree with you that you need to be cautios when travelling to such countries. lord knows i lock everything including carry on sometimes. And i travel quite a bit.

But as said in the quote above... IF (big IF) she was used as a pawn, at most she is guilty of is not protecting her luggage. right ? does that justify 20 years or a life sentence ? are they curbing the drug problem by that sentence ? or just giving a rather hard warning to travellers to put their luggage into a vault before travelling into that country ?

The main evidence in this case is circumstantial since the luggage was not not in her posession during the entirity of the trip, which included a stopover. i dont think you can convict anyone purely based on circumstantial evidence, let alone sentence them to death or to life or even 20 years. At most i'd reckon a permanent bad from Bali and a monetary fine with community service should serve the purpose. Also..i have to mention...this is pot...not cocaine or heroine, and therefore in my opinion dosent classify as a lethat addictive 'drug'... personally, nicotine and caffine are far worse substances,which are far more addictive and dangerous than pot (but thats just opinion).

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Ω

From Sydney Morning Herald

Nice defence. Really worked well. Next time use facts and arguments, and not emotion.

So ? does she have to prove her innocence ? or do they have to prove her guilty ? if i accuse you of being a witch, do u have to prove ur innocence or do i have to prove ur a witch ?

[Ω]

Bali != America

The courts over there (read: not America, not Australia, etc...) decided she was guilty. The process itself is largely irrelevant.

In fact it seems she got off lightly.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Ω

Bali != America

The courts over there (read: not America, not Australia, etc...) decided she was guilty. The process itself is largely irrelevant.

In fact it seems she got off lightly.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

if i accuse you of being a witch, do u have to prove ur innocence or do i have to prove ur a witch ?

I think it depends upon which country you and Ω are in when you accuse him (her?) of being a witch.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Also..i have to mention...this is pot...not cocaine or heroine, and therefore in my opinion dosent classify as a lethat addictive 'drug'... personally, nicotine and caffine are far worse substances,which are far more addictive and dangerous than pot (but thats just opinion).

Are traffickers of pot treated any differently from trafficking cocaine or heroine in the US?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Athens

Unless your bag is made of steal a little dinky lock on the outside wont do much.

It may not do much, but it will make tamper evident, which could be used as evidence in one's defense.

[Cody Dawg]

This article discusses how at least two other people from Australia also ended up with drugs in their baggage - one of them an older couple.

It's a lot more common than people think.

Another couple who claim they found marijuana in their suitcase when they arrived in Bali eight years ago, also told Nine that they were angry about Corby's sentence.

Melbourne tourists, who named themselves as Steve and Dee, said they could easily imagine being in Corby's place if it weren't for the advice they received from an Australian consulate official to destroy the drugs in their bag.

"I feel a lot of anger when I look at and see Schapelle and I just think how that could have been Steve and I and I feel so sorry for her," Dee said.

Another man, Fabio Macy, told the program his mother had endured a similar experience, finding what was believed to be cocaine or speed in her bag when she returned from Bali.

He said he and his brother destroyed the three containers of white powder their mother found in her suitcase.

"If she had been searched on that particular day, she would have been done and I mean who knows what would have happened," Mr Macy said.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

But as said in the quote above... IF (big IF) she was used as a pawn, at most she is guilty of is not protecting her luggage. right ?

No, not checking your luggage isn't a crime.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

does that justify 20 years or a life sentence ?

No, not even 20 minutes in a police station.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

are they curbing the drug problem by that sentence ?

No.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

or just giving a rather hard warning to travellers to put their luggage into a vault before travelling into that country ?

No, they are simply protecting a corrupt system that paid off a little bit more $ than the girl had. rich people almost never get sentenced because of these kinds of things.

And yes, the American justice system is just as corrupt, albeit a little bit less overt.

People who say that this has something to do with Bali, people living there, or Indonesia in general are just completely ignorant.

In Thailand, where people get caught with pot (and even "harder" drugs) get off all the time, because they simply pay the fee to get out of jail and pass go.

Shapelle should be in Australia with her friends and family, and not in any kind of slammer. And this isn't an international incident *duh*, this is a typical case of judicial hyporacy at it's finest.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Are traffickers of pot treated any differently from trafficking cocaine or heroine in the US?

They are in Canada and the Netherlands

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It may not do much, but it will make tamper evident, which could be used as evidence in one's defense.

Really????????? Im sure if she said my lock is missing, it would have about as much weight as her saying the drugs where planted. In this case if she had a lock and it was missing, I think the out come would be the same.

[Cody Dawg]

Remember reading this at the beginning?

Shocked, at times tearful, Schapelle Corby said she had never seen the marijuana before. She insisted it must have been put in her luggage during transit. So any video images showing the bodyboard bag's size and shape while it was in Corby's care were important.

Her lawyers were later to ask for them. But the CCTV at the Brisbane Qantas check-in was experiencing problems; any images recorded that morning were wiped 25 days later.

At Brisbane the weights of the bags had not been individually recorded. Their weight on check-in and on arrival in Bali was crucial. In Bali, customs and police ignored it.

Corby said the [body board] bag had been unzipped and zipped shut. She indicated how the two zips now met in the middle, but she always zipped the bag shut from right to left with a single zip.

[Wiskedjak]

Zipping in a particular way is not quite the same as using locks.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Zipping in a particular way is not quite the same as using locks.

GREAT POST!!

She almost had me convinced!

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Ω

GREAT POST!!

She almost had me convinced!

So there's absolutely no probability that the drugs were put into her luggage by someone else ?right ? I think when a court hands down a sentence of death/life/20 year in prison...they aught to be that sure. Just because theyre legal system dosent have the mental capasity to deal with anomilies such as circumstantial evidence and 'innocent until proven guilty' dosent make her guilty.

P.S.>> on a side note, watch the move "12 Angry Men"

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Warung

No, not checking your luggage isn't a crime.

what i meant was..if someone went upto her and accused her of not locking her luggage...shed be guilty of it. whether it's a crime is not the issue. u know ?

But yeah i agree with you.

I still stand by my post....circumstantial evidence (especially in this case, where the luggage was not in the sole posession of the accused throughout the journey)SHOULD NOT be enough to convict her , let alone sentnce her to 20 years.

[Cody Dawg]

Why are you ignoring that the "videotapes" were mysteriously erased?

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Why are you ignoring that the "videotapes" were mysteriously erased?

Is this a fault of the Balinese government? With the evidence that they had they decided that she was guilty. Do not pass go, Do not collect $200.

Given that there is no video evidence of MJ putting his todger in small boys, does that make him innocent?

Or do you look at the facts as presented and make an informed judgement?

No system is without error, even the American system (I have seen Shawshank Redemption!).

Accept the fact that she has been found guilty on the evidence provided. and that they did not single her out for special treatment.

[Cody Dawg]

I just hope Bali suffers because no one will visit their country because they might be locked up and the key thrown away.

What is AMAZING is this:

AIDS/HIV was rife, because corrupt officials turned a blind eye to drug abuse -- indeed they are implicated in supplying them.

That is IN the jail where she is locked up...for drug charges!



Link.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Ω

Or do you look at the facts as presented and make an informed judgment?

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah.

The "facts" also state the "officials" supply convicts with drugs for money. For all we know it was a Balinese official that was smuggling the drugs into Bali.

I think Bali is f*cked up and will never, ever, go there.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I just hope Bali suffers because no one will visit their country

Bali is not a country just as Florida is not a country.

Personally, I'm thinking of going to Bali soon because it'll be less dense with the less dense.

[Cody Dawg]

I think you SHOULD go there, Randman.

Have fun.



You'll fit right in there.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Randman

Personally, I'm thinking of going to Bali soon because it'll be less dense with the less dense.

Nice wordplay!

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think you SHOULD go there, Randman.

Have fun.



You'll fit right in there.

Yeah...if the customs find pot in his bags that he didnt pack. he probably wont put up a fight and just blindfold himself and brace himself for a firing squard, seeing as how their legal process would do that anyway. And sine it's the legal process, it must be the absolute truth i n that piece of land. I wonder..... given his rationale, would he convince himself that he is actually guilty of wrong doing seeing as how the law on that island would treat him as such?

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think you SHOULD go there, Randman.

Have fun.



You'll fit right in there.

With views like that, I certainly will. For other stuff, there's always Amsterdam.

Or Florida. Lots of dopes there, from what I gather from various diatribes about various ... "conspiracies".

[Ω]

Word on the street:

"But Corby’s problem all along, as a raft of legal experts in Australia have pointed out, is that she had the drugs with no explanation of how they got there, circumstances that would almost certainly convict her in an Australian court. "

[McMark]

Indonesia isnt going to let her go.
They are fully aware that if they release her she will be turned (by Australia's media)
into a wealthy superstar.
Think about the message that gives the millions of fruitcakes in western society
currently in search of an image, of any kind.
Once a precedent has been set, how does Indonesia sentence all the drug smuggers
that will flood the country once a softer approach to drugs has been shown to be the norm
in Indonesia

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by SVass

You are missing the important point. The admitted drug abuser Bush is supporting Indonesia, while not admitting any personal responsibility for his own crimes against humanity. Ask whether the US should grant Indonesia financial and police torture advice support? sam

I love this "Lets tie in everything bad that is happening with Bush"
spiel

It doesn't get old. Ever.

Get the chip off your shoulder.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Ω

Accept the fact that she has been found guilty on the evidence provided. and that they did not single her out for special treatment.

I've accepted the fact that they don't care if she is guilty or not.

She is being made an example of. That is all.

How anyone can defend this is beyond me.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

I love this "Lets tie in everything bad that is happening with Bush"
spiel It doesn't get old. Ever. Get the chip off your shoulder.

Why does the White House have a press conference and announce aid for the Indonesian military on the SAME day that this story breaks? I didn't hold the press conference. sam

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by SVass

Why does the White House have a press conference and announce aid for the Indonesian military on the SAME day that this story breaks? I didn't hold the press conference. sam

It doesn't matter patty. Start your own thread about it if you would like to.

[ironknee]

did i say she is a babe? with that Aussie accent...sweet

imagine one of us (macnners) came back to the us with all that weed...let's say the most holy one of us, you know who, said, no way, i had no idea it was there....let him go?

[Cody Dawg]

I've accepted the fact that they don't care if she is guilty or not.

She is being made an example of. That is all.

How anyone can defend this is beyond me.

Too true.

[Cody Dawg]

Great article from the Jakarta Post.

We likely may never know for sure if the judges in the Denpasar District Court determined the sentence solely on the basis of evidence presented before them, or whether other factors, including undue outside pressure, influenced their decision. But we do know for sure that the sentence is rather severe even by Indonesian standards.

Corby was found guilty of attempting to smuggle 4.1 kilograms of marijuana through the Denpasar airport in October. Compare her verdict with what other foreigners have received in Bali, and one has to admit that she has had the harshest punishment of all when compared to other similar cases.

A Mexican woman who smuggled 15.22 kg of marijuana received only a seven-year prison term in December 2001. An Italian man was sentenced to 15 years in July last year for attempting to smuggle 5.3 kg of cocaine, a much more dangerous drug. Corby did not smuggle cocaine and the amount of marijuana she was accused of smuggling is far less than what the Mexican woman brought in. Yet, she got a harsher sentence.

This becomes clearer if we look at the case of Clara Elena Umana, the Mexican who was sentenced by the same court in 2001 to seven years. She got just a third of the sentence that Corby received, for smuggling more than three times the marijuana. With sentence reductions through good behavior, the Mexican woman will likely only end up serving a little more than half the sentence.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Zipping in a particular way is not quite the same as using locks.

locks would not have changed anything, she would have gotten her beg lockless and im sure she would have claimed it was locked and seeing how they handled this they wouldnt have cared.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Ω

Word on the street:

"But Corby’s problem all along, as a raft of legal experts in Australia have pointed out, is that she had the drugs with no explanation of how they got there, circumstances that would almost certainly convict her in an Australian court. "

In a Australian court she would have been allowed to present evedence into her defence, also she would be innocent until proven guilty. And if by any chance she was found guilty which I doubt she would have, it would not be death or life or even 20 years.

[Nicko]

Anyone see "The World Uncovered" Episode on BBC world last week? It was about the infamous 'Bangkok Hilton" prison. Specifically they interviewed foreigners who were arrested for drug smuggling.

A british guy for example (who was only 19) got caught smuggling $40,000 worth of ecstasy in his carry on luggage into Bangnok and got 99years in prision. OUCH!