[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Athens

In a Australian court she would have been allowed to present evedence into her defence, also she would be innocent until proven guilty. And if by any chance she was found guilty which I doubt she would have, it would not be death or life or even 20 years.

I think they said that now they are hoping for a pardon from the king...doesn't sound promising.

[McMark]

something else to consider
Her brothers in gaol for drug running
her dads got a criminal record dealing drugs
when she got busted at denpasar she told her friend not to touch the body board case.
Hydroponic dope is worth more in bali than australia , all the indos grow is crappy leaf.
And anglos dont buy dope off Indos cos they fear they may be a plant job by the Indo police.
If you had a million or 2 dollars worth of fantastic heads, would you shove them
in some random bag at an airport with some amazing beleif that you would
find them again in Bali.
If Indonesia sends Corby back to Australia
the stupid media in this country will make her
a famous wealthy woman.
So then what happens? every image seeking suckhole from all
corners of the earth will descend on Bali or Indo
with drugs or some other criminal activity to get themselves
a media profile.
We closed the doors to illegal immigrants (in Australia) by harsh measures
Indonesia chooses to close the door on drug peddlars
because the Indonesian people and justice system see
the damage to their society caused by drugs a whole
lot clearer than we do.

[vinster]

Sad story, but I don't think there's anything else that can be done politically.

I think those who care about her now need to make sure she gets the best treatment possible in prison and hope for a reduced sentence for good behavior. The family's got a lot of media support at the moment and should use it to find people who can positively influence her treatment in prison.

[Hawkeye_a]

There's some friction on the political level between Australia and Indonesia (which is why i reckon the ozzie government has stayed out of this matter). lets face it, Indonesia’s military is far more powerful than the Australian's (several ozzies have mentioned this). And that’s why i reckon Australia, always supports the U.S. (iraq war), cause it's a i scratch your back, u scratch mine sort of thing.

But anyway.....
the fact that her brother, mother, father were at some point involved in narcotics, is irrelevant. you are passing judgement on her for a particular accusation. Treat it as such. EVEN if she was convicted before for anything to do with drugs, they have to treat this case as a single case. her criminal record can be used to frame her character but cannot be used as evidence in this particular case. It would be like....a convict gets released on bail... leads a normal life after that, some dude comes over and accuses him of some crime, and the prosecution, submits the convict’s criminal record as evidence for the new crime. Horseshit.

You treat every case on an individual basis. Lessening, or increasing the sentence cause she’s of a different ethnicity is bull. Either she’s guilty or not. There’s no 'in between' and half sentences. (Which is what they did. they basically said "were not 100% sure she’s guilt, only 50% so we'll give her 50% of the sentence").

Oh and by the way. Pot was legalized here in Western Australia about 6 months ago. if yo u are caught with pot, it doesn’t go on your permanent record (less than two joints or something). If you have more, you get the equivalent of parking ticket. Luckily our politicians aren’t as paranoid and misinformed as those in the U.S. and Indonesia. While the rest of the world evolves and changes, and accepts the fact that pot is no more dangerous than nicotine or alcohol some countries in their narrow mindedness, choose to resist change and hold onto their old misinformed opinions.(but that’s another topic entirely)

Bottom line. There is reasonable doubt in Corby's case. Which is why they didn’t sentence her to death, and therefore, since the prosecution couldn’t prove her guilty she is innocent. If the judges were so sure she was guilty, why did they lessen the sentence?

[Cody Dawg]

Bottom line. There is reasonable doubt in Corby's case. Which is why they didn’t sentence her to death, and therefore, since the prosecution couldn’t prove her guilty she is innocent. If the judges were so sure she was guilty, why did they lessen the sentence?

REALLY GREAT POINT.

[Face Ache]

This is a very pointy thread.

Any way you slice it, 20 years is a long time for a bag of pot.

[von Wrangell]

20 years for smuggling 4.3 kg of drugs or life for stealing a 140$ TV(and getting released on parole after 35 years)? What sounds fairer?

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/v-p...-8797908c.html

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

20 years for smuggling 4.3 kg of drugs or life for stealing a 140$ TV(and getting released on parole after 35 years)? What sounds fairer?

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/v-p...-8797908c.html

Well, atleast it wasn't a death sentence! ...


On the other hand, if one looks at it from the perspective of the Thai and the drug abuse problems they have in their country, one could see how sympathy for drug smugglers is lacking.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well, atleast it wasn't a death sentence! ...


On the other hand, if one looks at it from the perspective of the Thai and the drug abuse problems they have in their country, one could see how sympathy for drug smugglers is lacking.

Bali is in Indonesia, not Thailand.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

20 years for smuggling 4.3 kg of drugs or life for stealing a 140$ TV(and getting released on parole after 35 years)? What sounds fairer?

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/v-p...-8797908c.html

U-U-ULTRA POINT XTREME-MASSIVE!!

Time for a boycot! The people of North Carolina should suffer! Who would want to live in such a corrupted shithole anyway?!?

[Randman]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

U-U-ULTRA POINT XTREME-MASSIVE!!

Time for a boycot! The people of North Carolina should suffer!

REALLY GREAT POINT!

[Zimphire]

Yeah good point. That is lame. Even if it did happen over 30 years ago.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Randman

Bali is in Indonesia, not Thailand.

Indeed. Meh, close enough.

[Cody Dawg]

He DID the crime...do the time. He made a conscious choice to break into a home and steal a television and the article alludes to a prior record.

Did she DO the crime?

NO ONE KNOWS.

Innocent until proven guilty...unless you're in "INDONESIA" (Randman)

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Innocent until proven guilty...unless you're in "INDONESIA"...

...or the US...or...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

He DID the crime...do the time. He made a conscious choice to break into a home and steal a television and the article alludes to a prior record.

Did she DO the crime?

NO ONE KNOWS.

Innocent until proven guilty...unless you're in "INDONESIA" (Randman)

Is "innocent until proven guilty" an element in the Indonesia justice system?

One takes a risk when visiting (or smuggling drugs to) a foreign nation. One must be aware of those risks and weigh them against the value of the visit. Certainly someone from a family of drug smugglers must be aware of the tactics used by drug smugglers and how to prevent against being a "victim"

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Innocent until proven guilty...unless you're in "INDONESIA" (Randman)

Actually, as someone who travels as much as you claim to Cody, many nations do not follow this tenant. Some follow a presupposition of guilty until found innocent.

[gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Is "innocent until proven guilty" an element in the Indonesia justice system? "

The media feeding frenzy surrounding the drugs trials of Schapelle Corby and the Bali 9 has created widespread confusion about the Indonesian criminal justice system, with most reports suggesting it is biased and primitive.

Most of these reports are based, however, on serious mistakes. For example, despite persistent claims that Indonesian law presumes guilt, the fact is that it certainly does not. Indonesian legislation clearly places the burden of proof on the prosecution and provides for a presumption of innocence similar to that which applies in Australia.

Another widespread furphy is the assumption that because Indonesia does not have juries, its trial process is inherently unfair. The fact is that the absence of juries is a feature of the European-derived Civil Law tradition, the legal tradition followed by most countries in the world today. Indonesia inherited this tradition from France via the Dutch, who colonised Indonesia. Law without juries works well in most countries in the world.

However, although the Indonesian legal system provides the sorts of rights and protections for the accused that might be expected in Australian courts, they are not always upheld in the same way in practice.

The institutionalised bribery of the Soeharto period left its mark on the judiciary. Corruption is common in many courts around the country, partly because salaries are very low and facilities poor. As money became more persuasive than legal argument in some Indonesian courtrooms, the skills base of many judges and other law enforcement officials also plummeted.

This does not mean, however, that all trials necessarily involve corruption or incompetence. Since Soeharto's fall in 1998, the courts have commenced a difficult process of reform that is beginning to show results. Increasingly, Indonesian judges are finding defendants not guilty, as strong defence arguments get more attention in Indonesian courts and judges become less tolerant of weak prosecution cases. So, for example, none of the foreigners who observed the trials of Bali
Bombers Amrozi, Mukhlas or Imam Samudra suggested that there was anything unfair about those trials. This is significant, because they were tried - and sentenced to death, to popular acclaim in Australia - by the same court that is trying Corby and will probably try the Bali 9.

There may be room for criticism of the Bali drugs trials but we should not condemn the Indonesian system on false grounds or simply because it is different to our own.

-- Tim Lindsey is Professor of Asian Law and Associate Dean (International) in the Faculty of Law at the University of Melbourne. He is also Director of the Asian Law Centre, and Deputy Director of the Centre for the Study of Contemporary Islam. His research interests are in the areas of commercial law, constitutional law, Islamic law, governance and law reform, comparative law and law reform in developing economies. He researches and teaches in Bahasa Indonesia. His publications include Indonesia: Law & Society; Indonesia: Bankruptcy, Law Reform and the Commercial Court; Corruption in Asia: Rethinking the Governance Paradigm; and Indonesia After Soeharto: Prospects for Reform.

Their justice system certainly needs to be improved, but they're already leaps ahead of the wonderful American justice system in Guantanamo:

The presiding tribunal officer accuses Idr of associating "with a known Al Qaeda operative."

The detainee says, reasonably enough: "Give me his name."

The tribunal president says: "I do not know."

Idr understandably asks: "How can I respond to this?"

The tribunal president asks: "Did you know of anybody that was a member of al Qaeda?"

Idr says: "No, no ..."

.....

The officer then tells Idr that he "was arrested because of his alleged involvement in a plan to attack the U.S. Embassy in Sarajevo, to which Idr replies: "The only thing I can tell you is I did not plan or even think of (attacking the Embassy). Did you find any explosives with me? Any weapons? Did you find me in front of the embassy? Did you find me in contact with the Americans? Did I threaten anyone? I am prepared now to tell you, if you have anything or any evidence, even if it just very little, that proves I went to the embassy and looked (at) the embassy, then I am ready to be punished."

"These are questions that I can't even answer," Idr adds. "I am not able to answer them. You tell me I am from al Qaeda, but I am not an al Qaeda. I don't have any proof to give you except to ask you to catch Bin Laden and ask him if I am a part of al Qaeda ..."

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Then don't travel to those countries. I would never travel to a US state that has the death penalt for example. Nor any other state with it.

thanks, that's reason enough for us to have it.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

thanks, that's reason enough for us to have it.

[Cody Dawg]

Gut mein Deutsch sehr schlecht, aber ich denke, daß Ihr Deutsch so warum Pfosten Deutschreklameanzeigen schlechter ist?

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by Randman

GREAT POINT!!

AN EVEN GREATER POINT!!

Hang on, maybe I can do the Cody Dawg "switch emotions on and brain off" thing as well:

Originally evacuated by Cody Dawg:
I always travel light. I leave my brain at home.

And just in case anyone missed it the first time:

[Cody Dawg]

Is that all you can say?

Really intelligent commentary.

I think your neurons are connected by spirochetes, to be honest.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by McMark

something else to consider
Her brothers in gaol for drug running
her dads got a criminal record dealing drugs
when she got busted at denpasar she told her friend not to touch the body board case.
Hydroponic dope is worth more in bali than australia , all the indos grow is crappy leaf.
And anglos dont buy dope off Indos cos they fear they may be a plant job by the Indo police.
If you had a million or 2 dollars worth of fantastic heads, would you shove them
in some random bag at an airport with some amazing beleif that you would
find them again in Bali.
If Indonesia sends Corby back to Australia
the stupid media in this country will make her
a famous wealthy woman.
So then what happens? every image seeking suckhole from all
corners of the earth will descend on Bali or Indo
with drugs or some other criminal activity to get themselves
a media profile.
We closed the doors to illegal immigrants (in Australia) by harsh measures
Indonesia chooses to close the door on drug peddlars
because the Indonesian people and justice system see
the damage to their society caused by drugs a whole
lot clearer than we do.

Ah-bloody-men!

If aynone had actually bothered to read the account of her arrest, they would have noticed that her account of opening the bag freely is not what four Indonesian police officers say happened. They said she tried to keep them from opening the compartment where the dope was.

Now, because we're all being a bunch of racist bastards here piling on the xenophobic hatred of little slit eyed asians, we could say that the officer who opened the bad would be lying. But would all four officers be lying?

I love how this thread has degenerated into a Cody Dawg "let's hate them little non white peoples because they're backward and they hurt some poor defenceless woman who is obviously innocent because I, Cody dawg think so".

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Gut mein Deutsch sehr schlecht, aber ich denke, daß Ihr Deutsch so warum Pfosten Deutschreklameanzeigen schlechter ist?

Translated in English, this says: "Good my German bad, but I think your German so why (wooden posts) german advertisements are worse?"

Tremendous linguistic ability there, Cody.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Is that all you can say?

Really intelligent commentary.

I think your neurons are connected by spirochetes, to be honest.

Fortunately, Cody, my neurons are at least connected.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by y0y0

I love how this thread has degenerated into a Cody Dawg "let's hate them little non white peoples because they're backward and they hurt some poor defenceless woman who is obviously innocent because I, Cody dawg think so".

REALLY GREAT POINT!!

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Gut mein Deutsch sehr schlecht, aber ich denke, daß Ihr Deutsch so warum Pfosten Deutschreklameanzeigen schlechter ist?

Gut Cody, jetzt hast Du wenigstens eine Entschuldigung dafür, dass Du so einen Mist geschrieben hast. /nur ein Witz

[Warung]

Originally Posted by y0y0

But would all four officers be lying?

That could very much be the case, yes.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Warung

That could very much be the case, yes.

Of course that could very much be the case, and it probably is. In certain primitive places, whole societies are corrupt, it's just a way of life for them, and corruption/bribes is seen upon as normal everyday behavior.

I wouldn't trust anything that happens in a backwards place like Indonesia.

The findings are directly relevant to Indonesia where corruption is high and the country is in the throes of major decentralization and local democratization efforts.

http://www.nber.org/papers/W10674

[Warung]

Originally Posted by PacHead

In certain primitive places, whole societies are corrupt, it's just a way of life for them, and corruption/bribes is seen upon as normal everyday behavior.

Like I wrote before, this goes on in almost every society (some more than others) and the US (police departments, judicial systems and especially politicians) certainly isn't exempt.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Warung

Gut Cody, jetzt hast Du wenigstens eine Entschuldigung dafür, dass Du so einen Mist geschrieben hast. /nur ein Witz

Ich denke, daß sie Spaß mit dem Übersetzer im Armaturenbrett hatte.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by PacHead

.... In certain primitive places, whole societies are corrupt, ...]

Case closed. Stamping the label "primitive" on a whole country just because it isn't as rich as Beverly Hills ignores the fact that South Central LA is in the same city.

Why, please explain to me, would four white American customs officers be believable but not four Asian customs officers? What reason, please tell me, I really dearly would love to know, would they have to gang up on Shapelle Corby? What good would it do them? Were they ordered to do it? If so, then why?

[BoomStick]

They hate white people.

[Cody Dawg]

Tremendous linguistic ability there, Cody.

I said that my German was bad. Or don't you read - and comprehend?

The truth is that you're an ass. You come in here and start making personal attacks and honestly, why don't you go post somewhere else if you can't control yourself? Ah, that's right, you can't...spirochetes.

[BoomStick]

So he has VD in the head.

Typical european.

[Cody Dawg]

So he has VD in the head.

Typical european.

YOU "got" it, BoomStick!

[jbartone]

Looks like someone is really mad over the whole fiasco:

'Biological agent' closes Indonesian Embassy
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1382345.htm

That's pretty disgusting to think someone would do such a thing.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

He DID the crime...do the time. He made a conscious choice to break into a home and steal a television and the article alludes to a prior record.

Did she DO the crime?

NO ONE KNOWS.

Innocent until proven guilty...unless you're in "INDONESIA" (Randman)

She was found guilty.

Meaning she will have to do the time for the risk she took. There's nothing more to it and it doesn't matter how maternal you get on her because she was found guilty of smuggling 4.3kg of illegal drugs into that country. She got off easy compared to the poor bastard who got life for stealing a TV.


:starts wondering how many white Americans have gotten the same sentence as the poor guy who just got released:

[Randman]

And now, some fanatic in Jakarta will try and bomb the Aussie embassy again. Sad.

[Cody Dawg]

I don't know if Schapelle Corby is guilty or not.

Honestly, IF she did the crime she should do the time.

To be honest, if she has failed a polygraph test (or refused to take one) then I would believe that she IS guilty.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

To be honest, if she has failed a polygraph test (or refused to take one) then I would believe that she IS guilty.

Are they 100% accurate ?

Anyway......
1. eye witnesses who testified that she had the drugs in her bag at customs dosent mean anything. imagine....a crowded street....two gunmen standing next to each other...a shot is fired and a victim falls. all the other ppl only see the victim getting shot. they then turn to the gunmen....which one is guilty ? if they all say gunman1 is guilty does that mean it was him ? could it have been gunman2?

2. What will it take to convince me that Corby is guilt ? Link her to the drugs before boarding her flight in brisbane, with hard evidence....a phone conversation, a finger print, transfer of a huge sum of money, etc,etc... You charge her with trying to smuggle drugs....then prove that she had the intent and had conspired to do so. (bear in mind prior convictions should not influence the decision, as this should be treated as an individual case). But yeah basically...i want evidence (not testimonies or eye witnesses) that links corby to the drugs before she got onto the flight.

3. If justice has to be served...it's been 6 odd months. months that could have been used to take finger prints off the container....bali officials could have teamed up with Ozzie authorities to math finger prints, etc...and then trace the links back to Corby and proved she was guilty. but the didnt.

Therefore...im not convinced.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Are they 100% accurate ?

Anyway......
1. eye witnesses who testified that she had the drugs in her bag at customs dosent mean anything. imagine....a crowded street....two gunmen standing next to each other...a shot is fired and a victim falls. all the other ppl only see the victim getting shot. they then turn to the gunmen....which one is guilty ? if they all say gunman1 is guilty does that mean it was him ? could it have been gunman2?

2. What will it take to convince me that Corby is guilt ? Link her to the drugs before boarding her flight in brisbane, with hard evidence....a phone conversation, a finger print, transfer of a huge sum of money, etc,etc... You charge her with trying to smuggle drugs....then prove that she had the intent and had conspired to do so. (bear in mind prior convictions should not influence the decision, as this should be treated as an individual case). But yeah basically...i want evidence (not testimonies or eye witnesses) that links corby to the drugs before she got onto the flight.

3. If justice has to be served...it's been 6 odd months. months that could have been used to take finger prints off the container....bali officials could have teamed up with Ozzie authorities to math finger prints, etc...and then trace the links back to Corby and proved she was guilty. but the didnt.

Therefore...im not convinced.

Thats how I feel. Not enough was done to prove with out doubt she intended to smuggle drugs.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

They hate white people.

And how do you know that? Are you sure it isn't a case of you hating brown people?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

To be honest, if she has failed a polygraph test (or refused to take one) then I would believe that she IS guilty.

There's a reason polygraph tests aren't used in most of the civilised world.

Your judgement on this case is being coloured by the "innocent and cute little white girl" who's trapped in a foreign country that has a different religion, people of different colour and they speak a different language.

Get over that and just look at the case. She's guilty. And she deserves the time she got because she is guilty.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I said that my German was bad. Or don't you read - and comprehend?

The truth is that you're an ass. You come in here and start making personal attacks and honestly, why don't you go post somewhere else if you can't control yourself? Ah, that's right, you can't...spirochetes.

The reason I don't take you very seriously CD, is because you jump to a conclusion based on evidence whatsoever. You always do this type of thing. You did it with the Schiavo case and you're doing it now. Perhaps you'd like me to remind you of your comparison of Stephan Hawking and Terri Schiavo.

You NEVER bother with niggling little things like facts, or evidence. You always just jump on some emotional bandwagon, like a member of a lynch mob, and then put out the wildest most outrageous claims that you possibly can probably in the hope that someone will agree with you.

I personally find you an incredibly disturbed individual and I fell sorry for your children who have to put up with a mother who is very obviously not all there, and I mean that seriously, you're the internet equivalent of someone who spends all her time getting her life from the national enquirer. Forcing your children into some church because of your obsession with the Terri Schiavo case is so pathetic, it's just not funny.

It's sad, mainly. You may have more money and a nicer house, but in reality you're not one iota different from those screaming mobs in Jakarta burning effigies of GWBush. You never let facts get in the way of good old hysteria.

[y0y0]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

There's a readon polygraph tests aren't used in most of the civilised world.

Your judgement on this case is being coloured by the "innocent and cute little white girl" who's trapped in a foreign country that has a different religion, people of different colour and they speak a different language.

Get over that and just look at the case. She's guilty. And she deserves the time she got because she is guilty.

Exactly. CD just projects herself into the "poor white girl being violated by dirty little brown people" and forgets everything else.

[Cody Dawg]

You're the one who is a bigot by saying something like "dirty little brown people." I've actually donated my time and energy and lived in a few third world countries helping people. That's probably more than you or von wrangell can say. The truth is that people in Fiji and New Guinea and Kenya and Tanzania (which is where I've spent quite a bit of time) are nicer, more honest, and sweeter than most people. I know it from first-hand experience.

Your rants make it sound like you sound like you have rabies or something. Get some help and/or move along.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by y0y0

"dirty little brown people"

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

The truth is that people in Fiji and New Guinea and Kenya and Tanzania (which is where I've spent quite a bit of time) are nicer, more honest, and sweeter than most people.

But people in Indonesia aren't? Hindus aren't?