[Witness2005]

My heart and prayers go out to everyone who was effected by hurricane Katrina. But I must be truthful. The signs of the times are everywhere. Last December we witnessed the loss of over Two-Hundred Thousand lives from the tsunami that struck Indonesia. I believe that God's judgements on planet Earth are begining.

The permafrost in Alaska is melting aswell as the tundra in Siberia. Dramatic climate changes are going on all over the Earth. I believe this is a wakeup call to repentance.

America has commited many vile sins. We are murdering millions of unborn babies by abortion on demand. We are murdering many innocent people in Iraq. The war in Iraq is illegal and wicked. We killed hundreds of thousands in Japan by dropping the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We are condoning grave sins like homosexuality. This is in violation to God's word. The world will soon experience great tribulation like it has never seen before. The books of Daniel and Revelation in the Bible speak of this. The only hope for protection from these events is to put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

[demograph68]

The End Is Coming! Repent!

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

We are murdering many innocent people in Iraq. The war in Iraq is illegal and wicked. We killed hundreds of thousands in Japan by dropping the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

curious. the bible accounts many instances where "god" sends "his people" to kill others who are not in his favor. perhaps america is the current "hand o god" against modern infidels and these protestations are the sin.

this is just to present a contrary point of view. the poster does not claim either perspective represents his worldview. ;-)

be well and be better.

laeth

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

The only hope for protection from these events is to put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

Does this mean that he will only help us if we worship him?

WOW, he must be an attention whore!

[James L]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

My heart and prayers go out to everyone who was effected by hurricane Katrina. But I must be truthful. The signs of the times are everywhere. Last December we witnessed the loss of over Two-Hundred Thousand lives from the tsunami that struck Indonesia. I believe that God's judgements on planet Earth are begining.

The permafrost in Alaska is melting aswell as the tundra in Siberia. Dramatic climate changes are going on all over the Earth. I believe this is a wakeup call to repentance.

America has commited many vile sins. We are murdering millions of unborn babies by abortion on demand. We are murdering many innocent people in Iraq. The war in Iraq is illegal and wicked. We killed hundreds of thousands in Japan by dropping the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We are condoning grave sins like homosexuality. This is in violation to God's word. The world will soon experience great tribulation like it has never seen before. The books of Daniel and Revelation in the Bible speak of this. The only hope for protection from these events is to put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

Homosexuality is not a grave sin.

Fear mongering and ignorance should be though.

[RIRedinPA]

It's not God, it's nature. We keep f*cking up the planet, the planet's going to f*ck us right back.

[zerostar]

So first 200,000 deaths and now 65 deaths is how he's gonna play this out? Shiat i'd say with 6.4 Billion people on this planet the end is far far away unless he starts murdering people a little bit faster.

The Noahs ark fiasco (if your so inclined to believe in that) took out multiple millions...

in 1201 The worst recorded earthquake in history took an estimated 1 million lives.

in 1556 More than 830,000 people in the Shensi Province, China, were killed by an earthquake

in 1780 Caribbean Islands - The worst hurricane on record killed more than 20,000 people and destroyed the naval fleets of the British, Spanish, and French.

1845-1850 In the late summer of 1845 one of the greatest human ecological disasters in the history of the world began in Ireland. A fungus from North America established itself in Ireland and commenced to destroy the potato crop. When the fungus had run its course at least 1 million, possibly as many as 2 million, Irish had died and another 1 1/2 million had emigrated.

December 28, 1908 "Italy's worst earthquake occurred on December 28, 1908, striking both sides of the Straits of Messina and killing more than 200,000.

1920 Landslide. Kansu Province, China, 200,000 died

1931 Flood, Hwang-ho river, China 3,700,000 died

1932-33 Stalin engineered a famine (by massively raising the grain quota that the peasantry had to turn over to the state); this killed between six and seven million people and broke the back of Ukrainian resistance.

1956 Earthquake, Shensi Province, China, 830,000 died

1959-61 Northern China The world's deadliest famine killed an estimated 30 million people in China.

1967-69 Biafra (Africa) As a result of civil war, famine conditions killed an estimated 1 million people and left another 3.5 million suffering from extreme malnutrition.

1980 June–Sept., central and eastern U.S.: an estimated 10,000 people were killed during the summer in a long heat wave and drought.

And those are just SOME of the natural disasters, God better start racking up some more impressive numbers or your argument will look pretty weak in the next 20-30 years

Also, abortion was legalized in 1973 looking at numbers I have, I am sure I can put together a pretty tight argument that the number of deaths from natural disasters has DECREASED since that year, unless of course, God gets off her ass an does some real killin' soon.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

It's not God, it's nature. We keep f*cking up the planet, the planet's going to f*ck us right back.

Are you having your kids ride their bikes to school? Walking? If your car seats more than two, you're using more gas than you should be. Do you carpool? Do you go without air-conditioning in the summer? Are you spending money on companies who profiteer from this fear-monguering?

I've often wondered why Hybrid cars are ridiculously more costly than standard, comparably-sized and outfitted vehicles and why recycled waste bags are three times more costly than regular Hefty sacks. I've often wondered why we spend millions of dollars studying a hole in the ozone layer only to find out this hole has pulsated throughout history, and continue providing grants for this study. Wow, us humans are so powerful our 90 years of industrialization is ruining a world that has been through CFCs the likes of which man could not begin to imagine let alone produce. How much time do we have left?

THE END IS NEAR only it's not coming from an evangelist in Central Park. Hmmm, interesting.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

THE END IS NEAR only it's not coming from an evangelist in Central Park. Hmmm, interesting.

Indeed, the end is near for everyone, but not in the sense that the end of the world is near, but in the sense that everyone's individual life is only very short (a hundred and thirty years max) and that noone can be sure that he/she won't die way sooner than expected...

As to the end of the world, noone knows when that will be, not even Jesus, except God, and it will come over humanity surprisingly, if God will.

Taliesin

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Are you having your kids ride their bikes to school? Walking? If your car seats more than two, you're using more gas than you should be. Do you carpool? Do you go without air-conditioning in the summer? Are you spending money on companies who profiteer from this fear-monguering?

I've often wondered why Hybrid cars are ridiculously more costly than standard, comparably-sized and outfitted vehicles...

As far as the first part, we can all do a little and that will help a lot, the gas problem can be severely curbed if we all got 25MPG, would filling ever seat in your car help, yes but we should set realistic expectations, not throw caution to the wind cause we can't do it all.

Hybrids are more costly because they are new and they know they can make more since they are niche right now. Plus R&D costs money that no one knows if or when it will be recouped.

Game consoles are more when they are new as well, if everybody scoops them up the price usually starts to drop.

THE END IS NEAR only it's not coming from an evangelist in Central Park. Hmmm, interesting.

Not sure what this means. Were you being sarcastic? Why don't you post something to support this?

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by zerostar

As far as the first part, we can all do a little and that will help a lot, the gas problem can be severely curbed if we all got 25MPG

That's a great idea. And then we can all live in Government-mandated project housing, with each unit being exactly the same size and receiving the same amount of food and clothing as the rest.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I've often wondered why Hybrid cars are ridiculously more costly than standard, comparably-sized and outfitted vehicles and why recycled waste bags are three times more costly than regular Hefty sacks.

Because typically people who are willing to purchase these vehicles or bags are in a higher economic level than those who wouldn't. Because they have the excess income they are able to afford to translate their environmental concern into a purchase, even if that purchase is more expensive than an non-environemntally sound item of equal design. I don't see the point in hybrids (except for the feel good effect) as they cost around $30,000 to start and gas would have to be around $4+ in order for you to see any financial benefit. A more intelligent move (IMHO) is to purchase diesel and then fuel it with biodiesel. You do good and you save money.

I've often wondered why we spend millions of dollars studying a hole in the ozone layer only to find out this hole has pulsated throughout history, and continue providing grants for this study. Wow, us humans are so powerful our 90 years of industrialization is ruining a world that has been through CFCs the likes of which man could not begin to imagine let alone produce. How much time do we have left?

I'll leave that to the leading scientists and politicians to ponder. I personally think it is worth studying.

THE END IS NEAR only it's not coming from an evangelist in Central Park. Hmmm, interesting.

Are you having your kids ride their bikes to school? Walking? If your car seats more than two, you're using more gas than you should be. Do you carpool? Do you go without air-conditioning in the summer? Are you spending money on companies who profiteer from this fear-monguering?

OK, now to respond to your snide response.

Nope, the school is too far and they are in kindergarten and we live on a road with no sidewalks.

However, I drive a diesel and fill it with biodiesel. I also just signed a grant yesterday with a local energy coop to have solar heat installed in my house, probably won't do it till next spring though as we have some other projects to wrap up before we get into a new one. We also purchased those canvas grocery bags for when we do small shopping trips at the local supermarket (we save a nickel on each visit!) and we try to purchase fruits and veggies through the local farmers market. And of course I recycle aluminum, paper, plastic and batteries through the township. I also give $20 bucks to the Nature Conservancy and a local enviro group each year.

I didn't say the end is near, I said that disasters such as the Katrina hurricane and associated flooding and other damage can be attributed to our messing with the environmental balance of the planet. I won't bother with the greenhouse gas argument as you have already outlined your disbelief in it and it would be pointless to go on, but that wasn't what I was talking about anyway.

In the outlying areas of New Orleans more than 1 million acres of wetlands (swamps and tidal areas) have been developed. I am not familar with that coastal area but I am sure it is like the Jersey/Delaware/Maryland coast where the barrier islands have also been over developed and the natural flow of sand through the ocean tides, which builds and destroys these islands interrupted by jetties and other man made obstructions causing unnatural build-up or depletion of sand in areas. These wetlands and tidal areas were designed by nature to offer a level of protection to the mainland from hurricanes and flooding. You develop and destroy these areas without taking into consideration how they play an integral role in protecting the surrounding area from natural disasters you open the door for scenes like we are seeing in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Same for the tsunami last year. I am not saying no one would have died or there would not have been any damage but it would have been greatly reduced had the inhabitants of that area not destroyed as much of outlying coral reefs which help protect the coastal areas there or deforested as much of the coastline as they did.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

That's a great idea. And then we can all live in Government-mandated project housing, with each unit being exactly the same size and receiving the same amount of food and clothing as the rest.

Yeah cause thats exactly what I said Way to miss the point.

25MPG should be easily obtainable on any non-commercial vehicle, I didn't say to get a lemming-mobile or anything like that, but if you don't need a truck you should at least get 25MPG, many small cars art getting close to 40 as it is.

If you don't care about anyone but yourself don't bother responding.

[RAILhead]

Sweet mother of Moses, can we puh-LEEEEZE ban this guy? Not only does he consistently make an ass out of himself, he makes an ass out of the faith he claims to profess.

Ugh.

Let's just think/pray/cross fingers for all those suffering in the "wake of Katerina" and do our part in helping, whatever that may be.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

America has commited many vile sins. We are murdering millions of unborn babies by abortion on demand. We are murdering many innocent people in Iraq. The war in Iraq is illegal and wicked. We killed hundreds of thousands in Japan by dropping the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We are condoning grave sins like homosexuality. This is in violation to God's word. The world will soon experience great tribulation like it has never seen before. The books of Daniel and Revelation in the Bible speak of this. The only hope for protection from these events is to put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

Trolltastic. Does anyone actually think he believes what he's saying?

Originally Posted by zerostar

If you don't care about anyone but yourself don't bother responding.

That'd leave these boards rather bare.

[baw]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

The permafrost in Alaska is melting ...

No it isn't. The only time the permafrost melts is if someone removes the top soil above it or builds a building on top of it.

I lived there for 16 years of my life, the permafrost isn't going away. Thanks for trying though, game over.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by baw

No it isn't. The only time the permafrost melts is if someone removes the top soil above it or builds a building on top of it.

I lived there for 16 years of my life, the permafrost isn't going away. Thanks for trying though, game over.

Get your head out of the sand dude - the permafrost is melting and that's a fact!

[Dale Sorel]

For all affected by this natural disaster, please be sure to take care of your entire family:



http://noahswish.org/

[finboy]

Originally Posted by zerostar

1980 June–Sept., central and eastern U.S.: an estimated 10,000 people were killed during the summer in a long heat wave and drought.

Huh? I was here for that, and I missed the disaster. Strange.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by zerostar

So first 200,000 deaths and now 65 deaths is how he's gonna play this out? Shiat i'd say with 6.4 Billion people on this planet the end is far far away unless he starts murdering people a little bit faster.

The Noahs ark fiasco (if your so inclined to believe in that) took out multiple millions...

in 1201 The worst recorded earthquake in history took an estimated 1 million lives.

in 1556 More than 830,000 people in the Shensi Province, China, were killed by an earthquake

in 1780 Caribbean Islands - The worst hurricane on record killed more than 20,000 people and destroyed the naval fleets of the British, Spanish, and French.

1845-1850 In the late summer of 1845 one of the greatest human ecological disasters in the history of the world began in Ireland. A fungus from North America established itself in Ireland and commenced to destroy the potato crop. When the fungus had run its course at least 1 million, possibly as many as 2 million, Irish had died and another 1 1/2 million had emigrated.

December 28, 1908 "Italy's worst earthquake occurred on December 28, 1908, striking both sides of the Straits of Messina and killing more than 200,000.

1920 Landslide. Kansu Province, China, 200,000 died

1931 Flood, Hwang-ho river, China 3,700,000 died

1932-33 Stalin engineered a famine (by massively raising the grain quota that the peasantry had to turn over to the state); this killed between six and seven million people and broke the back of Ukrainian resistance.

1956 Earthquake, Shensi Province, China, 830,000 died

1959-61 Northern China The world's deadliest famine killed an estimated 30 million people in China.

1967-69 Biafra (Africa) As a result of civil war, famine conditions killed an estimated 1 million people and left another 3.5 million suffering from extreme malnutrition.

1980 June–Sept., central and eastern U.S.: an estimated 10,000 people were killed during the summer in a long heat wave and drought.

And those are just SOME of the natural disasters, God better start racking up some more impressive numbers or your argument will look pretty weak in the next 20-30 years

Also, abortion was legalized in 1973 looking at numbers I have, I am sure I can put together a pretty tight argument that the number of deaths from natural disasters has DECREASED since that year, unless of course, God gets off her ass an does some real killin' soon.

Man, the chinese haven't had it easy.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by finboy

Huh? I was here for that, and I missed the disaster. Strange.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882823.html

The last one.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by zerostar

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882823.html

The last one.

I'd like to see some other documentation on that one if anyone has it. It's just that I was there -- you'd think that 10K deaths should generate some additional documentation.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by finboy

I'd like to see some other documentation on that one if anyone has it. It's just that I was there -- you'd think that 10K deaths should generate some additional documentation.

My main source was a book, that was a secondary source, and here is a third:

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/reports/billionz.html

I hope you don't need more than that (especially since its noaa)

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

Because typically people who are willing to purchase these vehicles or bags are in a higher economic level than those who wouldn't.

No, that's exactly my point. I'm tired of the; "let's exploit their concern by gouging their pocketbooks" marketing mentality. They'll charge you twice as much for bags made more cheaply of recycled goods. In fact, the bags are nowhere near as dependable as the evil standard hefty sack, but they sure cost just as much.

Because they have the excess income they are able to afford to translate their environmental concern into a purchase, even if that purchase is more expensive than an non-environemntally sound item of equal design.

I believe companies interested in the recycling effort should charge what their product is actually worth. Hell, it might even encourage someone other than a wealthy liberal to make the buy.

I don't see the point in hybrids (except for the feel good effect) as they cost around $30,000 to start and gas would have to be around $4+ in order for you to see any financial benefit. A more intelligent move (IMHO) is to purchase diesel and then fuel it with biodiesel. You do good and you save money.

That's what I'm saying though. People are not buying hybrids to save money on gas. At least, not two weeks ago. They're trying to do their small part to help the environment. This is why a "$10,000 Yugo with a larger battery" is costing them $30,000.00.

I'll leave that to the leading scientists and politicians to ponder. I personally think it is worth studying.

I believe it's often exploited for grants and reminds me of the traveling salesman in MusicMan. "Oh we got trouble, right here in River City!!!"

OK, now to respond to your snide response.

No, I was responding to; "It's not God, it's nature. We keep f*cking up the planet, the planet's going to f*ck us right back." I got railed on by Stradlater claiming I was not compassionate for the people of New Orleans and then I read the above. I don't know that you can say with sufficient evidence that the hurricane is a result of us f*cking the planet. I just don't buy the connection there. Your statements on the development of New Orleans are noteworthy and in fact I agree whole-heartedly with you on those points.

Nope, the school is too far and they are in kindergarten and we live on a road with no sidewalks.

I can appreciate this as I'm in the same boat. My children carpool. My wife carpools with her workmate.

However, I drive a diesel and fill it with biodiesel. I also just signed a grant yesterday with a local energy coop to have solar heat installed in my house, probably won't do it till next spring though as we have some other projects to wrap up before we get into a new one.

The rest of us earning less than $60k a year will find our own ways to help I suppose.

We also purchased those canvas grocery bags for when we do small shopping trips at the local supermarket (we save a nickel on each visit!) and we try to purchase fruits and veggies through the local farmers market. And of course I recycle aluminum, paper, plastic and batteries through the township. I also give $20 bucks to the Nature Conservancy and a local enviro group each year.

This is all good. I've signed off for environmental donations out of my tax return.

I didn't say the end is near, I said that disasters such as the Katrina hurricane and associated flooding and other damage can be attributed to our messing with the environmental balance of the planet. I won't bother with the greenhouse gas argument as you have already outlined your disbelief in it and it would be pointless to go on, but that wasn't what I was talking about anyway.

Then, what were you talking about? If we continue down the same course at some point we will have alienated humanity with the implications of what we've done.

In the outlying areas of New Orleans more than 1 million acres of wetlands (swamps and tidal areas) have been developed. I am not familar with that coastal area but I am sure it is like the Jersey/Delaware/Maryland coast where the barrier islands have also been over developed and the natural flow of sand through the ocean tides, which builds and destroys these islands interrupted by jetties and other man made obstructions causing unnatural build-up or depletion of sand in areas. These wetlands and tidal areas were designed by nature to offer a level of protection to the mainland from hurricanes and flooding. You develop and destroy these areas without taking into consideration how they play an integral role in protecting the surrounding area from natural disasters you open the door for scenes like we are seeing in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

True, coupled with the fact that every single solitary Louisiana official stated this was for real and mandated an evacuation. An interview was conducted with a recently-rescued woman and she said that she and her husband were joking about it the other day; "if we made it through Betsy in the 60's, we've been through it all." They were rescued from their rooftops and from certain death yesterday. She said she regretted having not responded to their officials by evacuating as soon as they were called to do so. I wonder if the folks riding out the storm in the pubs of Bourbon St. made it out. Understand, this is not lacking compassion. I cannot be expected to care more for one than they care for themselves as this would only leave me beating my head against a brick wall. I am seeing some good things, citizens with hammers peeling into homes to rescue people. I hope many of them show gratitude by taking what they need to eat and tallying the amount for eventual payback, but something tells me this is not the case. For the life of me can't figure out why they're taking tv's, car stereos, shooting police officers...where do they think they'll go with all this stuff. 80% of their town is under water.

Same for the tsunami last year. I am not saying no one would have died or there would not have been any damage but it would have been greatly reduced had the inhabitants of that area not destroyed as much of outlying coral reefs which help protect the coastal areas there or deforested as much of the coastline as they did.

It also would've been greatly reduced had they used some of that incredible amount of money made from resorts, villages, and businesses in that area by developing an early-warning surge system like they have on the West Coast here in the US. The East Coast still has no early-warning system sufficient to warn of surges as I recall hearing during that Tsunami. I wonder if they've acted yet.

[ebuddy]

One more thing while I'm at it and I've been wondering who I can tell about this. Maybe some of you more resourceful folks could point me in the right direction or tell me why my idea is ignorant.

I was watching coverage of this Hurricane event from when they first began evacuating New Orleans. This would've been prior to the storm hitting and while we were watching the immense lines of those being screened prior to entering the Super Dome. In one clip they showed the traffic leaving the city and it was obviously severely bottle-necked. In the shot, you could see the interstate leaving New Orleans in one direction chalk full of cars, and the interstate entering New Orleans on the other side... completely empty! (naturally, but I mean there weren't even emergency personnel coming in to New Orleans, the 'IN' route was completely barren. Even if they needed to move personnel 'in', they could've done so using one lane 'in' and the other 3 out.) If they could've blocked off that 'IN' road somewhere at the outskirts of town, and routed traffic in the outward direction on that 'in'road, they could've evacuated twice as many people in the same amount of time. I wonder if this would've even been possible. I'm no city engineer or planner, but it seems to me we need to think about this stuff outside the norm for really any city. Think of a natural disaster in any city. People will not be rushing in, they'll be rushing out. What if you open the 'in' roads to let people out??? It's not always that simple in all cases, but it certainly looked feasible in the New Orleans scenario. There were no bridges, turnpikes, clover-leafs...

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

One more thing while I'm at it and I've been wondering who I can tell about this. Maybe some of you more resourceful folks could point me in the right direction or tell me why my idea is ignorant.

I was watching coverage of this Hurricane event from when they first began evacuating New Orleans. This would've been prior to the storm hitting and while we were watching the immense lines of those being screened prior to entering the Super Dome. In one clip they showed the traffic leaving the city and it was obviously severely bottle-necked. In the shot, you could see the interstate leaving New Orleans in one direction chalk full of cars, and the interstate entering New Orleans on the other side... completely empty! (naturally, but I mean there weren't even emergency personnel coming in to New Orleans, the 'IN' route was completely barren. Even if they needed to move personnel 'in', they could've done so using one lane 'in' and the other 3 out.) If they could've blocked off that 'IN' road somewhere at the outskirts of town, and routed traffic in the outward direction on that 'in'road, they could've evacuated twice as many people in the same amount of time. I wonder if this would've even been possible. I'm no city engineer or planner, but it seems to me we need to think about this stuff outside the norm for really any city. Think of a natural disaster in any city. People will not be rushing in, they'll be rushing out. What if you open the 'in' roads to let people out??? It's not always that simple in all cases, but it certainly looked feasible in the New Orleans scenario. There were no bridges, turnpikes, clover-leafs...

I heard different - on the radio on Sunday a reporter said all eight lanes were outgoing - he equated it to being in a Hollywood disaster movie - how eerily predictive of him.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

I heard different - on the radio on Sunday a reporter said all eight lanes were outgoing - he equated it to being in a Hollywood disaster movie - how eerily predictive of him.

No, I mean I saw the barren 'in' route and the bottle-necked out path. They may have done so after a while I don't know. It seems to me they needed to have opened that inlet immediately for outbound traffic. I don't know. Very frustrating to see the mayhem there.

[RIRedinPA]

I'm trying to trim down the length of our thread. I'm going to lump some of this stuff together. ; )

OK, so we agree that people do things (buy hybrids, recycled trash bags, etc.) out of a genial concern for things environmental and they get jacked by greedy corporate America. But you don't have to be a 'wealthy liberal' or a 'wealthy conservative' (environmentalism was, at one point, part of the conservative party - Teddy Roosevelt, Barry Goldwater, etc.) to make a contribution. As I responded to you, I drive a diesel - a Jeep Liberty CRD, it costs me $21,000 - listed at $27 I think and I traded in a decent shape Nissan Xterra for it. Any diesel can run on biodiesel and in fact the inventor/discoverer of the diesel engine originally ran it on peanut oil and predicted that at one point vegetable oil would be more cost-efficient fuel than petrodiesel. Now, biodiesel is actually more expensive per gallon if you buy it from a distributor than petrodiesel but there's a whole network of folks out there brewing their own who'll give it to you cheap (I pay a friend $1 a gallon and help him with the process) or some who'll just give it away. Go online and you can find someone to work a deal out with. I can't brew my own cause the lovely Mrs. gets a bit nervous about the methane and our kids but it works out ok all the same.

I believe it's often exploited for grants and reminds me of the traveling salesman in MusicMan. "Oh we got trouble, right here in River City!!!"

What isn't exploited? I think one has to look at the collective evidence instead of individual cases to make a decision - collectively the evidence points to us adding to the warming of the planet, which yes, is also a natural process, just like the polarity switching from north to south every 10,000 years or so.

But as I pointed out global warming wasn't what I was talking about - it's poor planning and development, deforestation, etc. etc. which contribute to making these disasters worse than they could be.

I can appreciate this as I'm in the same boat. My children carpool. My wife carpools with her workmate.

Kids ride the bus. Mom stays home with the babies.

The rest of us earning less than $60k a year will find our own ways to help I suppose.

Well as I pointed out above you don't have to be wealthy to do what you can. Solar is expensive to install and there's no way I would do it without some help. In Philly there is an energy coop which gives out grants for solar installation. You have to use their vendors and the system has to meet their specs upon installation and one year later but they cover most of the costs. On top of that PECO (local utility) has to buy back any excess energy I put out. And Uncle Sam is going to give me tax breaks for getting off the grid. Why more people don't do it is beyond me.

Then, what were you talking about? If we continue down the same course at some point we will have alienated humanity with the implications of what we've done.

The end, no. A very inhospitable planet, maybe. But humans have survived through every condition - including the ice age and I guess our oversized brains and opposable thumbs will get us through what ever comes next, even if it is of our own design. There might be a lot less of us, but there will still be some of us.

True, coupled with the fact that every single solitary Louisiana official stated this was for real and mandated an evacuation.

Without doubt there were some legit reasons some people couldn't leave and there were a lot of asses who thought they could just ride it out. I agree with the frustration of seeing rescue crews risking life and limb to rescue people who should have left. My wife had a good comment on this today though when I was grumbling that we should charge them for the rescue. She said that most were so poor they couldn't afford to pay and you would end up spending more money trying to collect than you would ever get. Better idea is to make them do some community service in return for their rescue.

It also would've been greatly reduced had they used some of that incredible amount of money made from resorts, villages, and businesses in that area by developing an early-warning surge system like they have on the West Coast here in the US.

Agreed.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

I'm trying to trim down the length of our thread. I'm going to lump some of this stuff together. ; )

OK, so we agree that people do things (buy hybrids, recycled trash bags, etc.) out of a genial concern for things environmental and they get jacked by greedy corporate America. But you don't have to be a 'wealthy liberal' or a 'wealthy conservative' (environmentalism was, at one point, part of the conservative party - Teddy Roosevelt, Barry Goldwater, etc.) to make a contribution. As I responded to you, I drive a diesel - a Jeep Liberty CRD, it costs me $21,000 - listed at $27 I think and I traded in a decent shape Nissan Xterra for it. Any diesel can run on biodiesel and in fact the inventor/discoverer of the diesel engine originally ran it on peanut oil and predicted that at one point vegetable oil would be more cost-efficient fuel than petrodiesel. Now, biodiesel is actually more expensive per gallon if you buy it from a distributor than petrodiesel but there's a whole network of folks out there brewing their own who'll give it to you cheap (I pay a friend $1 a gallon and help him with the process) or some who'll just give it away. Go online and you can find someone to work a deal out with. I can't brew my own cause the lovely Mrs. gets a bit nervous about the methane and our kids but it works out ok all the same.

Your lovely Mrs. is consistent in her concern over methane, accounting for the second highest greenhouse gas emission, including stockyards and agriculturalization in general. I drive a 1988 Audi 5000 CS Quattro. A 1997 Sebring convertible and a Chrysler Town and Country Minivan. It's hard to carpool and carry a family of 4 anywhere without it. All totaling less than what you paid for one vehicle.

What isn't exploited? I think one has to look at the collective evidence instead of individual cases to make a decision - collectively the evidence points to us adding to the warming of the planet, which yes, is also a natural process, just like the polarity switching from north to south every 10,000 years or so.

... and increasing solar energy and related activity.

But as I pointed out global warming wasn't what I was talking about - it's poor planning and development, deforestation, etc. etc. which contribute to making these disasters worse than they could be.

I'm inclined to agree with the "poor planning" piece of this big time. This what I had started about by saying. One thing we're witnessing is that our architectural prowess is nothing compared to one small tropical depression that hits warm water and turns into a raging hurricane. We'd behoove ourselves to heed the warnings of NOAA and others who stated this "big easy" could be among the most non-easy to clean up in an event such as this.

Well as I pointed out above you don't have to be wealthy to do what you can. Solar is expensive to install and there's no way I would do it without some help. In Philly there is an energy coop which gives out grants for solar installation. You have to use their vendors and the system has to meet their specs upon installation and one year later but they cover most of the costs. On top of that PECO (local utility) has to buy back any excess energy I put out. And Uncle Sam is going to give me tax breaks for getting off the grid. Why more people don't do it is beyond me.

Well, this poor conservative is going to start by 3M-ing the windows and adding weather-trim to the doors. Winter's comin'.

Without doubt there were some legit reasons some people couldn't leave and there were a lot of asses who thought they could just ride it out. I agree with the frustration of seeing rescue crews risking life and limb to rescue people who should have left. My wife had a good comment on this today though when I was grumbling that we should charge them for the rescue. She said that most were so poor they couldn't afford to pay and you would end up spending more money trying to collect than you would ever get. Better idea is to make them do some community service in return for their rescue.

Well, as you know regardless of the frustration we feel, none of this can come to fruition. I dare say a great many who've looted the electronics section of Walmart will at least be availing themselves of the media warnings for next time. Right now a thunderstorm rolling through New Orleans would seal it's fate. They need to get them out of there ASAP, drain the city, recover what's left of it's infrastructure, enjoy the newly created coastline, and rebuild with better design. This is going to require we vote in officials for New Orleans who are a little less colorful in personality and a little more sensible in legislating. There's nothing fun nor festive about New Orleans now.

Good BS'n wit'cha!

[finboy]

Originally Posted by zerostar

My main source was a book, that was a secondary source, and here is a third:

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/reports/billionz.html

I hope you don't need more than that (especially since its noaa)

It's NOAA, but it isn't clear where THEY got their info. Again, as an eyewitness to history, I don't remember it happening. I think my experience may be a little more valuable than some nameless researcher's list.

[Witness2005]

In the books of Daniel and Revelation ect. in the Bible, we read of horrible events. These judgements are the result of sin and lack of faith. These judgements will bring about the end of this present earth age, not the end of the world. On the last day Jesus Christ will return and bring God's kingdom to this Earth and paradise (eden) will be restored.

The truth is that man worships the work of his own hands. We gloat over our scientific accomplishments. We have pride in our computers and weapons and space program. We tell God we dont want him because we are divine.

We need to humble ourselves and repent of our many wicked ways. Our society is decadant and is like Sodom and Gomarrah. We have no shame or boundaries, we are spiritually lawless and bankrupt.

We are murdering millions of babies by abortion on demand in the name of convenience. We are killing many innocent people in Iraq and robbing their oil. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It is wicked and perverted. As a result God has sent aids as a judgement. This judgement effects all types of illicit sex.

Hurricane Katrina and 911 are wake up calls to repentance. We must humble ourselves and repent or worse judgements will soon come upon us. These catastrophic events will only get worse until Christ returns. Because most people will not wake up, they will choose to live in their rebellion.

If you will open yourself up and hear God's warning,he may spare you his judgements. God is our only hope during perilous times. Jesus Christ is the only way to have access to God the Father. By putting our faith and trust in him we may be saved.

[Witness2005]

God is giving us a taste of the suffering we inflicted on Iraq
God is still judging the earth for it's sin. The bible predicts that during the end times, those judgments will increase, rather than decrease. Why then do we see people claiming exactly the opposite to be true? People have nullified God's wrath by claiming grace is the only way God moves. Yes, God is gracious and merciful, but He is also a great KING and JUDGE. You cannot cancel King and Judge from God's nature.

America needs to repent for her sins. America invaded an innocent country, Iraq. Due to the invasion, Iraq has suffered GREATLY, and this is displeasing to God. Iraq is still suffering from the unjust invasion committed by America. They are to this very day going without electricity, safe drinking water, limited medical help, very limited food, unemployment, lack of shelter, lack of clothing, and lack of jobs BECAUSE America invaded them based upon LIES.

Just as Iraq has gone without electricity, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq lived in squallor, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq had polluted, noxious, stinking water to drink, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people have gone without housing, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people are jobless, so is the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people have went without food and potable drinking water, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's children are unclothed, so are the children of the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people had to live amongst dead bodies, infectious diseases, with the inability to cleanse themselves of their waste, the same has happened to the Gulf Coast.

America's media have failed to convey the suffering of Iraq's people, but now God is allowing people to see simply a TASTE of the suffering they have endured by showing the Gulf Coast on live coverage 24/7. Not only this, but God has allowed the media to expose the light hearted government response to the tragedy occuring in the Gulf Coast. If American government is responding to it's own people so slight of hand, how much MORE have the Iraqi people suffered from neglect of help????

Surely more judgments will follow during these end times if America doesn't take responsibility for it's actions in Iraq and help those people without FURTHER delay. America shouldn't delay in Iraq or in New Orleans, it should take care of who they are responsible for, and yes they are responsible for the devastation in Iraq.

Repent America! Look upon those suffering in the Gulf and realize that this government has purposefully caused more suffering than this to Iraq's people. Surely this is an example being laid plainly in our sight in order to enlighten the American citizens to the suffering not only of the Gulf, but of the Iraqi people as well. Humble yourselves, American citizens, humble yourselves. The same tears you shed for the Gulf, shed them for Iraq too!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

God is giving us a taste of the suffering we inflicted on Iraq
God is still judging the earth for it's sin. The bible predicts that during the end times, those judgments will increase, rather than decrease. Why then do we see people claiming exactly the opposite to be true? People have nullified God's wrath by claiming grace is the only way God moves. Yes, God is gracious and merciful, but He is also a great KING and JUDGE. You cannot cancel King and Judge from God's nature.

There are some things in which I agree with you and of course many other things for which I don't. Remember the rabbis who asked Christ why this man was blind and was it the sin of his mother or father that brought this wrath upon him? Jesus answered that is was neither, but that you could see the hand of God at work. He then healed the man. Have we not noticed incredible healing, offers of aid and comfort, and gratuity. We're witnessing this gratuity the likes of which would not have known we were capable of had it not been for this tragedy. We're also reminded of our mortality in this. We are not omniscient. We will not heed even the warnings of man let alone, God. I don't know that anyone is nullifying God's wrath, but what of other places that do not fit your bill of blessings? Places like San Francisco, Las Vegas, etc... Be prepared to account for the joy that is in you Witness. You've got the law down, but you may have to examine whether or not there is joy in your heart.

America needs to repent for her sins.

And so do you and I in it.

America invaded an innocent country, Iraq. Due to the invasion, Iraq has suffered GREATLY, and this is displeasing to God.

Was God also displeased with the bags of grain and rice that said USA on them? Was God displeased at a dictator who because of selfish agenda would rather see his people starve in economic sanctions? Has God not used the armies of others to exact his wrath throughout history? Are you nullifying his wrath? Why is this hurricane an act of God and not the military prowess with which we were blessed in removing this dictator?

Iraq is still suffering from the unjust invasion committed by America.

They were suffering prior. Ask one.

They are to this very day going without electricity, safe drinking water, limited medical help, very limited food, unemployment, lack of shelter, lack of clothing, and lack of jobs BECAUSE America invaded them based upon LIES.

calm down and think about what you are saying. Man will continue to be man. Man is not divine nor perfect. The LIES you're talking about were thought to have been TRUTHS talked about by most of the International Community, the Administration prior, and just about every intelligence source known to man. The disagreement was how to deal with the threat. After 12 years of economic sanctions that only served to exact the kind of oppression you're talking about coupled with 13 UN resolutions, the final one calling for "severe consequences", I believe the consequences were severe in accordance with the threat.

Just as Iraq has gone without electricity, so has the Gulf Coast.

You claim to know the workings of the Creator, why not San Francisco then. If the thoughts of your mind are less corrupt then the homosexual, why is San Francisco allowed to continue in it's blessings???

Just as Iraq lived in squallor, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq had polluted, noxious, stinking water to drink, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people have gone without housing, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people are jobless, so is the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people have went without food and potable drinking water, so has the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's children are unclothed, so are the children of the Gulf Coast. Just as Iraq's people had to live amongst dead bodies, infectious diseases, with the inability to cleanse themselves of their waste, the same has happened to the Gulf Coast.

So God chose New Orleans to endure these hardships. What of the rest of the "sin-ridden" country of ours. Are the blessings we enjoy because of the incredible humanitarian effort going on in Iraq? New schools, hospitals, libraries, infrastructure??? Are the blessings we enjoy in the majority of the US to be construed as God's approval of our actions equal to his disapproval.

America's media have failed to convey the suffering of Iraq's people, but now God is allowing people to see simply a TASTE of the suffering they have endured by showing the Gulf Coast on live coverage 24/7. Not only this, but God has allowed the media to expose the light hearted government response to the tragedy occuring in the Gulf Coast. If American government is responding to it's own people so slight of hand, how much MORE have the Iraqi people suffered from neglect of help????

So, is it a powerbook, iBook, G5, eMac, or iMac that you're typing on? Just wanted to remind you of His blessings as well. This is not to be construed as God appreciating everything you do.

Surely more judgments will follow during these end times if America doesn't take responsibility for it's actions in Iraq and help those people without FURTHER delay. America shouldn't delay in Iraq or in New Orleans, it should take care of who they are responsible for, and yes they are responsible for the devastation in Iraq.

They, they, they... What are YOU doing?

Repent America! Look upon those suffering in the Gulf and realize that this government has purposefully caused more suffering than this to Iraq's people. Surely this is an example being laid plainly in our sight in order to enlighten the American citizens to the suffering not only of the Gulf, but of the Iraqi people as well. Humble yourselves, American citizens, humble yourselves. The same tears you shed for the Gulf, shed them for Iraq too!

I believe God has called you into missionary work in Iraq. This is like the 8th post you've made regarding Iraq. You obviously have a very strong heart for the Iraqi people and that's commendable. Go now and do the hard work that is necessary in Iraq!