[von Wrangell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4198754.stm


Sickening.....

[lil'babykitten]

Just another day in Apartheid Israel.

[von Wrangell]

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4180362.stm

[art_director]

You say 'terror' I say 'defense.'

Israel is a terrorist state but not all Israelis are terrorists as not all Arabs are terrorists.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by art_director

...not all Israelis are terrorists as not all Arabs are terrorists.

No one's disputing that point. The issue is Israel making a distinction between "Jewish" terrorists and "Muslim" terrorists.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

No one's disputing that point. The issue is Israel making a distinction between "Israeli" terrorists and "Arab" terrorists.

Understood, just wanted to point it out before any trolls grabbed onto your post.

The sad fact is that the Israelis have treated the Palestinians poorly for years – in some ways the way they were persecuted in Europe. Mind you, I'm not trying to suggest that anything compares to the terrible tragedy the Jews faced, but there are human rights, freedoms and basic treatment correlations that can be made.

It's just sad that people can't treat people like they would treat their own.

[dcolton]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

No one's disputing that point. The issue is Israel making a distinction between "Jewish" terrorists and "Muslim" terrorists.

Sure they do. The difference is that Israel actually makes an effort to police their own, while the killer palestinians support the idea of killing in the name of allah.

[art_director]

Let's get one thing straight, O.K.K.K.? Not all Palestinians ( Yes, it should be a capital P ) are terrorists. Just the lunatic fringe, just like the lunatic fringe that supports Dubya and his motley crew.

[dcolton]

Originally Posted by art_director

Let's get one thing straight, O.K.K.K.? Not all Palestinians ( Yes, it should be a capital P ) are terrorists. Just the lunatic fringe, just like the lunatic fringe that supports Dubya and his motley crew.

sure they Are. pAlestinians have been attacking innocent Israelis for decades. If they wanted it to stop, they could have stopped it. Instead, they have martyr cards for their esteemed heros that killed innocent Jews in the name of allah

[art_director]

What's your address, I'd like to send you a dictionary and a copy of 'The Elements of Style.' You could use the refresher.

By your logic all Americans are terrorists given that we have religious whack jobs running around shooting doctors who commit abortions.

[dcolton]

when was the last time you heard about an anti-abortion freak killing a doctor?

When was the last time you heard about akbar killing innocent men, women, and children in Israel...all in the name of allah.

When was the last time the Christian faith promised 70 virgins to kill innocence?

[von Wrangell]

Did someone let you in to derail this thread? If not why is it impossible for you to stay on topic?

[dcolton]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Did someone let you in to derail this thread? If not why is it impossible for you to stay on topic?

How am I not on topic and how did I derail this thread?


Palestinians get credit fot their terror because of their actions and lack their of, while the Israeli's don't because they are victims of these brutal savagaes that kill in the name of allah.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by dcolton

when was the last time you heard about an anti-abortion freak killing a doctor?

When was the last time you heard about akbar killing innocent men, women, and children in Israel...all in the name of allah.

When was the last time the Christian faith promised 70 virgins to kill innocence?

Abortion clinic shootings happen in this country. Deny it if you must but they do. That's a form of religious fanaticism akin to what you reference in Israel.

[dcolton]

Originally Posted by art_director

Abortion clinic shootings happen in this country. Deny it if you must but they do. That's a form of religious fanaticism akin to what you reference in Israel.

ummm...von wrangle would like you to keep this discussion focused on killer muslims versus innocent Israelis.

BTW, I asked you when was the last abortion killing.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by dcolton

How am I not on topic and how did I derail this thread?


Palestinians get credit fot their terror because of their actions and lack their of, while the Israeli's don't because they are victims of these brutal savagaes that kill in the name of allah.

Given your lack of knowledge on the matter and racist tendencies your posts really aren't worth reading.

[dcolton]

lack of knowledge? Do you know how many rounds I have gone with kitty face and logic? (LBK, I couldn't remember her name). I have forgotton more about killer muslims than you will ever know.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by dcolton

lack of knowledge? Do you know how many rounds I have gone with kitty face and logic? (LBK, I couldn't remember her name). I have forgotton more about killer muslims than you will ever know.

Debates with people here hardly equate with knowledge of the subject.

Again, your address, a dictionary awaits.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by dcolton

How am I not on topic and how did I derail this thread?


Palestinians get credit fot their terror because of their actions and lack their of, while the Israeli's don't because they are victims of these brutal savagaes that kill in the name of allah.

That's the thing dcolton. This isn't about Palestinians. This is about Israel and Israelis. And how Israelis discriminate against their own citizens based on ethnicity.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by art_director

Given your lack of knowledge on the matter and racist tendencies your posts really aren't worth reading.

Please keep it that way. Just ignore him while he tries to derail the thread.

[sminch]

i don't get it - surely the army desrter was an enemy of israel? his attack was damaging to the peace process, and the peace process is something isreael wants, so doesn't that make him an enemy of the state?

wtf?

sminch

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by art_director

Debates with people here hardly equate with knowledge of the subject.

Again, your address, a dictionary awaits.

Open it yourself, and look up "antisemite".

Why won't you answer his question? How long ago was it that a murder occured in an abortion clinic, perpetrated in the name of God?

And no, I don't believe that all Palestinian Arabs are terrorists, but it's a much higher % than Israeli Jewish terrorists (by many many orders of magintude). You can bank on that.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Just another day in Apartheid Israel.

Yup. When the "Palestinians" finally head back to Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc., it should calm down quite a bit. Most are no more "Palestinian" than Castro.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Open it yourself, and look up "antisemite".

Why won't you answer his question? How long ago was it that a murder occured in an abortion clinic, perpetrated in the name of God?

And no, I don't believe that all Palestinian Arabs are terrorists, but it's a much higher % than Israeli Jewish terrorists (by many many orders of magintude). You can bank on that.

First let me say that I am not against Jews, nor am I pro terrorist. My point was, is and will be that the Israelis ( note that does not mean all Jews ) are not giving the Palestinians a fair shake. My position is very close to that of Thomas Friedman, the NY Times reporter, who just so happens to be a Jew that speaks out against some of Israel's policies.

Why don't I answer the question of that last abortion killing? Because I don't have interest in chasing down stories about whacked out Christian fundamentalists. I will tell you Eric Rudolph, the Olympic bomber, killed a police officer in 1998 with a bomb at an abortion clinic. That pitiful waste of sperm was sentenced to life in prison just last week. There he can read his bible for the rest of time. And, in the judge's words:

"You are a very small man, and like other men (of small stature), you have a Napoleonic complex and a need to compensate for what you lack," Hawthorne said Monday in court. "Small man, big bomb."

So what's your point about the number of Palestinian terrorists vs. the number of Jewish terrorists? Regardless we can't lump the bad with the good.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

When the "Palestinians" finally head back to Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc....

Carry on living in your dream world if it makes you happy!

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Open it yourself, and look up "antisemite".

Why won't you answer his question? How long ago was it that a murder occured in an abortion clinic, perpetrated in the name of God?

And no, I don't believe that all Palestinian Arabs are terrorists, but it's a much higher % than Israeli Jewish terrorists (by many many orders of magintude). You can bank on that.

I love that last sentence a lot. "There are more morons there, therefore, it is justified to call them all morons".

This is great logic.

[vmarks]

Let's see. There was already a derail in this thread, committed by Von Wrangell who linked to a completely different topic.

Topic 1: Entitlement of payment to terrorist attack survivors/families.

Sharon (who Logic/VonWrangell and LBK regulary demonize) wanted the victims survivors to be treated as terrorist victims under the law, despite the fact that they were not Israelis, and therefore ineligible under law. The Knesset (parliamentary government body) stuck to the law and the defence ministry has offered a one-time payment. This one-time payment is not guaranteed by law, but instead is an act of generosity.

I await for the PA to someday pay Israelis for the deaths they have caused, rather than praise the murderers, as Abbas did so recently, when he proclaimed the Gaza exodus to have been brought by the martyrs. (Adults know to read 'martyr' as suicide bomber. Thank you, Abbas. So much for being a man of peace.)

Topic 2: Von Wrangell's Derail: Israeli Arabs and how they feel in Israel, along with Israeli Arabs who marry from surround Authority or Countries and how they feel immigration treats them.

We've covered this topic before, with regard to marriage- marrying people who have to apply for immigration is difficult in ANY country in the world. Marrying people from regions with history of aggression to Israel is bound to be subject to greater scrutiny. The agreement with Jordan is a warm agreement, but in practice it has fallen apart- this is what happens when the leader is ready for peace but his people are not. Israelis, for example, went to Jordan for cheap dental service. The Jordanian Dentist's licensing board threatened to pull any dentist's license if the dentist offered service to a Jew.

Jordan has a law on its books explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen, or any Jordanian from selling land to a Jew. It has refused to amend this law despite repeated demands.

And lastly, not all is doom and gloom as the BBC would like it to be.

http://www.chechentimes.org/en/news/2005/01/06/

From the AP, January 6 2005, the PA elections were on, for the first time in YEARS. necessitated by Arafat's natural death.

"Rabi Mimi is a strong supporter of leading Palestinian presidential candidate Mahmoud Abbas. But when the polls open Sunday, Mimi won’t be voting. Mimi, a 28-year-old Palestinian truck driver, isn’t alone. Many Palestinian residents of Jerusalem say they won’t participate in the election, the first Palestinian presidential vote in nearly a decade, fearing they will jeopardize their fragile status under Israeli rule."

Asked if he would vote, a taxi driver responded with indignation, "Are you kidding? To bring a corrupt [Palestinian] Authority here. This is just what we are missing."

'Abd ar-Razzaq ‘Abid of Jerusalem's Silwan neighborhood pointed dubiously to "what's happening in Ramallah, Hebron, and the Gaza Strip" and asked if the residents there were well off. A doctor applying for Israeli papers explained:

The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage.

-- The Daily Telegraph (London), Jan. 28, 2001

In the colorful words of one Jerusalem resident, "The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

-- ‘Abd as-Samiya Abu Subayh, quoted in The Washington Post, July 25, 2000.

The director of the Bayt Hanina community council in northern Jerusalem, Husam Watad, found that the prospect of finding themselves living under Arafat's control had people "in a panic. More than 50 percent of east Jerusalem residents live below the poverty line, and you can imagine how the situation would look if residents did not receive [Israeli] National Insurance Institute payments." In the view of Fadal Tahabub, a member of the Palestinian National Council, an estimated 70 percent of the 200,000 Arab residents of Jerusalem preferred to remain under Israeli sovereignty.

-- The Washington Post, July 25, 2000.

A social worker living in Ras al-‘Amud, one of the areas possibly falling under PA control, said: "If a secret poll was conducted, I am sure an overwhelming majority of Jerusalem Arabs would say they would prefer to stay in Israel."

-- Telegraph, Jan 28 2001.

Faysal al-Husayni, the Palestine Liberation Organization's man in charge of Jerusalem affairs, went further: "Taking Israeli citizenship is something that can only be defined as treason," and he threatened such people with exclusion from the Palestinian state.

Reuters, Aug. 17, 2000.

Finding his threat ineffective, Husayni upped the ante, announcing that Jerusalem Arabs who take Israeli citizenship would have their homes confiscated.

Israel Wire Service, Sept. 4, 2000.

The PA's radio station confirmed this, calling such persons "traitors" and threatening that they would be "tracked down."

Reuters, Aug. 17, 2000.

Many Palestinians were duly intimidated, fearing the authority's security forces.

The Jerusalem Report, Sept. 9, 2002.

But some spoke out. Hisham Gol of the Mount of Olives community council put it simply: "I prefer Israeli control."

Ha'aretz (Tel Aviv), Dec. 29, 2000.

An affluent West Bank woman called a friend in Gaza to ask about life under the PA. She heard an ear-full: "I can only tell you to pray that the Israelis don't leave your town," because "the Jews are more human" than Palestinians.

The Forward, Aug. 11, 1995.

One individual willing publicly to oppose Arafat was Zohair Hamdan of Sur Bahir, a village in the south of metropolitan Jerusalem; he organized a petition of Jerusalem Arabs demanding that a referendum be held before Israel lets the Palestinian Authority take power in Jerusalem. "For 33 years, we have been part of the State of Israel. But now our rights have been forgotten." Over a year and a half, he collected more than 12,000 signatures (out of an estimated Jerusalem Arab population of 200,000). "We won't accept a situation where we are led like sheep to the slaughterhouse."

The Jerusalem Post, Dec. 22, 2002.


Hamdan also expressed a personal preference that Sur Bahir remain part of Israel

Jerusalem Post, Nov. 8, 2002. For his efforts, he was threatened by the PA with his effigy on an electric pole, declared an enemy on Hezbollah television, and finally gunned down, taking five bullets in the abdomen, shoulder, and leg. (Joseph Farah, "My New Muslim Hero," WorldNetDaily.com, Nov. 28, 2001.)

and estimated that the majority of Palestinians reject "Arafat's corrupt and tyrannical rule. Look what he's done in Lebanon, Jordan, and now in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He has brought one disaster after another on his people."

The Jerusalem Post, Dec. 22, 2002.


Now, I expect you'll note that a lot of those quotes were from 2000 and on, with only two from 2005. This is okay, I think that the quotes are relevent since they're from within the time period of the so-called-latest-Intifada that the palestinians started. The so-called new era of peace under Abbas has been marked by no peace and the same old attacks.

Thanks for your own derail.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by dcolton

sure they Are. pAlestinians have been attacking innocent Israelis for decades. If they wanted it to stop, they could have stopped it. Instead, they have martyr cards for their esteemed heros that killed innocent Jews in the name of allah

So, when an Arab murders innocent people it's terrorism. What is an Israeli who murders innocent people to achieve a political goal (in this case to "derail the evacuation of Jewish settlements in Gaza")?

Kudos to Ariel Sharon for at least publicly recognizing that this man is a terrorist and attempting to have him convicted as such.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by art_director

First let me say that I am not against Jews, nor am I pro terrorist. My point was, is and will be that the Israelis ( note that does not mean all Jews ) are not giving the Palestinians a fair shake. My position is very close to that of Thomas Friedman, the NY Times reporter, who just so happens to be a Jew that speaks out against some of Israel's policies..

I personally did not find your comments to be inflammatory, art_director. It would be nice to know what you mean by giving the "Palestinians" a fair shake, however. Israel's Arabs enjoy more rights and liberties than the brethren in the rest of the middle east. They enjoy a prosperous economy. They enjoy due process of law. They benefit an exemption from the military that allows them to work and save money while their young Jewish peers are conscripted. They enjoy not only suffrage but also the ability to elect their own politicians, politicians who then call for the destruction of the country on the floor of Knesset. Many of them enjoy great wealth and beautiful homes. They're better off then their brethren who remain in the true Arab homelands. "Palestinians" are much better off in and around Israel than they would be in many of the home countries, which have severely discriminatory employment laws against "Palestinians." (Think about that for a second, and consider why the Arabs would want to discourage Arab immigration to Arab countries.) They're certainly better off than Jews were in Arab countries (800,000+ of which were dispossed and expelled from the Arab countries they called home, upon Israel's independence) or Jews in Nazi Europe, obviously.

And frankly, I don't know how what Israel can possibly to do give the Arabs any more of a "fair shake." The Arabs in Israel already have been given a fair shake. The Arabs were given "a fair shake" in 1921 when they were awarded nearly 80% of the Palestine Mandate in the form of Trans-Jordan. (Most of the Mandate was originally set to be turned back over to the Jewish people.) They Arabs were again given a "fair shake" when the U.N. attempted to partition the remaining 20% and give Arabs 10% of it for an additional state; thankfully the Arabs rejected the offer that Israel accepted and pledged annihilation instead. The Arabs were given a "fair shake" in 1948, 1967 and 1973 when Israel restrained its response to their three wars of annihilation. Israel gave the Arabs a "fair shake" when it gave millions to those in the territories for sanitation and electricity infrastructure building - the belief was that Jewish money would make Arabs hate the Jew less. False notion. Israel gave the Arabs a "fair shake" when Israel gave back the oil-rich Sinai peninsula to Egypt in return for a cold peace (which included Egypt's countenance of gun-trafficking that has armed countless terrorists).

They were given a "fair shake" in the 1990s when Israel falsely legitimized the terrorist pig Arafat, YM"SH, brought him back from Tunisia (where the Lebanese and Syrians, not Israel, had exiled the pig) and turned him into a pseudo statesman. The Arabs were given a "fair shake" during Oslo, when Israel's left officially legitimized the "Palestinian" myth and gave Arafat limited rule over them in return for empty pledges to end terrorism. He never had any intention of doing so. The Arabs were given a "fair shake" when Barak offered them 95% of what they claimed the wanted, only for Arafat to walk away and launch the second wave of terror. (The Clinton Administration, which was no great friend to Israel, placed the "blame" squarely on Arafat.) The Arabs were just now a "fair shake" when that "hawk" Ariel Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Jewish land. Hamas called it a victory that terrorism won; thousands paraded across the streets with automatic weaponry, displaying Arab "appreciation" of Jewish kindness. The Arabs were, of course, right - their barbaric behavior spurred yet another Israeli concession out of weakness. Finally, Israel has given the Arabs "a fair shake" every time they fail to respond with overwhelming force to each disgusting act of Arab terrorism. No other country on the face of the earth would endure what Israel has endured without responding so much more harshly. No other country would be held to the double standard that is applied to Israel. And no other country would perpetually countenance a hostile fifth column in its own back yard and even its recognized cities. Only Israel, the suffering servant of the L-rd.

Yes, Thomas Friedman is a Jew. And yes, he's a writer for the New York Times. He's also, IMO, a naive leftist who has difficulty grasping salient truths of the conflict. Simply because he's a Jewish columnist doesn't make his opinion the correct one. If truth alone were the qualification for a position at the NY Times, people like MacNStein and I would be their columnists.

To everyone in general: von Wrangell found a story that would allow him to bash Israel. Israel's fund to compensate terror victims applies to those acts that are perpetrated by enemies of Israel. The perpetrator of that wrongful act did not fit the legal definition of an enemy of Israel, a designation which would carry huge religious implications for his family. You can cry about it, but by playing up this minor point you reveal that you truly have so few legitimate grievances with the Jewish state. It is the Jewish state. It is the Jewish homeland. The Arab will never be completely equal to the Jew in the Jewish state. (But contrast, if you will, Israel's treatment of Arab terrorists with the treatment of Arabs by the P.A. who are accused of collaborating with Jews. Not pretty is it?) And certainly, there's no denying that any "infidel," be he Christian, Hindu or Jew, will ever be more than a second class citizen in any Arab country. Look at the history.

Here's an outlandish thought exercise. The Arabs wish to gradually erode the state of Israel, so let me ask you this: What if Jews suddenly decided they wanted a piece of Iraq? Or what if they wanted Saudi Arabia? What kinds of rights would Jewish "citizens" of Saudi Arabia have? What if they wanted to make the claim that Muslim holy sites are actually Jewish holy sites, as Muslims do to Jews and Christians? What if they demanded that the Muslim holy sites of Mecca and Medina be administered by Jewish authorities? What if they attempted to turn to terrorism to accomplish their goals? How many Jews would be left? That's right - there would be mass slaughter if those Jews ever threatened an Arab state. It would never happen because it would be so ridiculous. But it's okay for Arabs to constitute terminal threats to the Jewish state. All Israel wants is a tiny strip of its land, a small part of what the L-rd G-d of Israel bestowed. But go ahead, continue to despise the Jew, calumniate the Jew. It is my people's fault for disobeying G-d's command to take dominion over the land. We are punished for our lack of confidence in the sovereign of the universe. You, however, the hateful, the ignorant, will also be punished for your sin. The L-rd of Hosts, the almighty king of the universe does not sleep. May He correct the ignorant and mete out measure for measure divine justice against the wicked. B"H

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

(...)If truth alone were the qualification for a position at the NY Times, people like MacNStein and I would be their columnists.(...)

I find it reassuring that at least 2 people have the truth about something like that.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Let's see. There was already a derail in this thread, committed by Von Wrangell who linked to a completely different topic.

Topic 1: Entitlement of payment to terrorist attack survivors/families.

Sharon (who Logic/VonWrangell and LBK regulary demonize) wanted the victims survivors to be treated as terrorist victims under the law, despite the fact that they were not Israelis, and therefore ineligible under law. The Knesset (parliamentary government body) stuck to the law and the defence ministry has offered a one-time payment. This one-time payment is not guaranteed by law, but instead is an act of generosity.

I await for the PA to someday pay Israelis for the deaths they have caused, rather than praise the murderers, as Abbas did so recently, when he proclaimed the Gaza exodus to have been brought by the martyrs. (Adults know to read 'martyr' as suicide bomber. Thank you, Abbas. So much for being a man of peace.)

The victims were Israeli. Their families were Israeli. They died in a terrorist attack made by an Israeli. Perhaps you just don't think Arabs and Muslims (perhaps Christians as well?) can ever be equal citizens of Israel? Be careful because there is a word for that.

Topic 2: Von Wrangell's Derail: Israeli Arabs and how they feel in Israel, along with Israeli Arabs who marry from surround Authority or Countries and how they feel immigration treats them.

We've covered this topic before, with regard to marriage- marrying people who have to apply for immigration is difficult in ANY country in the world.

....... snipped irrelevant parts
.....
]"Rabi Mimi is a strong supporter of leading Palestinian presidential candidate Mahmoud Abbas. But when the polls open Sunday, Mimi won’t be voting. Mimi, a 28-year-old Palestinian truck driver, isn’t alone. Many Palestinian residents of Jerusalem say they won’t participate in the election, the first Palestinian presidential vote in nearly a decade, fearing they will jeopardize their fragile status under Israeli rule."

Asked if he would vote, a taxi driver responded with indignation, "Are you kidding? To bring a corrupt [Palestinian] Authority here. This is just what we are missing."

'Abd ar-Razzaq ‘Abid of Jerusalem's Silwan neighborhood pointed dubiously to "what's happening in Ramallah, Hebron, and the Gaza Strip" and asked if the residents there were well off. A doctor applying for Israeli papers explained:

The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage.

-- The Daily Telegraph (London), Jan. 28, 2001

In the colorful words of one Jerusalem resident, "The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

-- ‘Abd as-Samiya Abu Subayh, quoted in The Washington Post, July 25, 2000.

The director of the Bayt Hanina community council in northern Jerusalem, Husam Watad, found that the prospect of finding themselves living under Arafat's control had people "in a panic. More than 50 percent of east Jerusalem residents live below the poverty line, and you can imagine how the situation would look if residents did not receive [Israeli] National Insurance Institute payments." In the view of Fadal Tahabub, a member of the Palestinian National Council, an estimated 70 percent of the 200,000 Arab residents of Jerusalem preferred to remain under Israeli sovereignty.

-- The Washington Post, July 25, 2000.

A social worker living in Ras al-‘Amud, one of the areas possibly falling under PA control, said: "If a secret poll was conducted, I am sure an overwhelming majority of Jerusalem Arabs would say they would prefer to stay in Israel."

-- Telegraph, Jan 28 2001.

Faysal al-Husayni, the Palestine Liberation Organization's man in charge of Jerusalem affairs, went further: "Taking Israeli citizenship is something that can only be defined as treason," and he threatened such people with exclusion from the Palestinian state.

Reuters, Aug. 17, 2000.

Finding his threat ineffective, Husayni upped the ante, announcing that Jerusalem Arabs who take Israeli citizenship would have their homes confiscated.

Israel Wire Service, Sept. 4, 2000.

The PA's radio station confirmed this, calling such persons "traitors" and threatening that they would be "tracked down."

Reuters, Aug. 17, 2000.

Many Palestinians were duly intimidated, fearing the authority's security forces.

The Jerusalem Report, Sept. 9, 2002.

But some spoke out. Hisham Gol of the Mount of Olives community council put it simply: "I prefer Israeli control."

Ha'aretz (Tel Aviv), Dec. 29, 2000.

An affluent West Bank woman called a friend in Gaza to ask about life under the PA. She heard an ear-full: "I can only tell you to pray that the Israelis don't leave your town," because "the Jews are more human" than Palestinians.

The Forward, Aug. 11, 1995.

One individual willing publicly to oppose Arafat was Zohair Hamdan of Sur Bahir, a village in the south of metropolitan Jerusalem; he organized a petition of Jerusalem Arabs demanding that a referendum be held before Israel lets the Palestinian Authority take power in Jerusalem. "For 33 years, we have been part of the State of Israel. But now our rights have been forgotten." Over a year and a half, he collected more than 12,000 signatures (out of an estimated Jerusalem Arab population of 200,000). "We won't accept a situation where we are led like sheep to the slaughterhouse."

The Jerusalem Post, Dec. 22, 2002.


Hamdan also expressed a personal preference that Sur Bahir remain part of Israel

Jerusalem Post, Nov. 8, 2002. For his efforts, he was threatened by the PA with his effigy on an electric pole, declared an enemy on Hezbollah television, and finally gunned down, taking five bullets in the abdomen, shoulder, and leg. (Joseph Farah, "My New Muslim Hero," WorldNetDaily.com, Nov. 28, 2001.)

and estimated that the majority of Palestinians reject "Arafat's corrupt and tyrannical rule. Look what he's done in Lebanon, Jordan, and now in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He has brought one disaster after another on his people."

The Jerusalem Post, Dec. 22, 2002.


Now, I expect you'll note that a lot of those quotes were from 2000 and on, with only two from 2005. This is okay, I think that the quotes are relevent since they're from within the time period of the so-called-latest-Intifada that the palestinians started. The so-called new era of peace under Abbas has been marked by no peace and the same old attacks.

Thanks for your own derail.

It was no derail. It was showing how even without the discriminatory laws people feel the pressure of the Apartheid state called Israel. And thanks for those quotes, I'm very surprised that you can find Palestinian Israelis that like living in Israel (I'm lying here).

But why did you feel the need to lie in the beginning of your post? The victims of the attack were Israelis, not Palestinians. And because of how the rules were read Jewish terrorism is not considered an "enemy of Israel". If you didn't lie, perhaps you should start reading the articles I post?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Israel's fund to compensate terror victims applies to those acts that are perpetrated by enemies of Israel. The perpetrator of that wrongful act did not fit the legal definition of an enemy of Israel, a designation which would carry huge religious implications for his family.

So a Jewish defector from the military who kills innocent Israelis is not an enemy of Israel? Thanks for proving my point.

The Arab will never be completely equal to the Jew in the Jewish state.

And thanks for proving my second point. Israel is an apartheid state. At least you are honest, something that can't be said about other members of this forum. Thanks

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Let's see. There was already a derail in this thread, committed by Von Wrangell who linked to a completely different topic.

Topic 1: Entitlement of payment to terrorist attack survivors/families.

Sharon (who Logic/VonWrangell and LBK regulary demonize) wanted the victims survivors to be treated as terrorist victims under the law, despite the fact that they were not Israelis, and therefore ineligible under law. The Knesset (parliamentary government body) stuck to the law and the defence ministry has offered a one-time payment. This one-time payment is not guaranteed by law, but instead is an act of generosity.

I await for the PA to someday pay Israelis for the deaths they have caused, rather than praise the murderers, as Abbas did so recently, when he proclaimed the Gaza exodus to have been brought by the martyrs. (Adults know to read 'martyr' as suicide bomber. Thank you, Abbas. So much for being a man of peace.)

.....

Jordan has a law on its books explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen, or any Jordanian from selling land to a Jew. It has refused to amend this law despite repeated demands

This was the response I expected. 'Arab Israelis may not enjoy equal rights in Israel but they have more rights than Jews living in Arab countries, so it's OK'. If that's how you look at it then you'll have to stop describing Israel as a democracy. Democratic countries bestow equal rights upon ALL their citizens. Israel does not, rather it classifies its citizens in to categories of 'A, 'B', 'C' and 'D' where each group is entitled to different rights.

Arab countries do not treat their Jewish inhabitants equally but neither is it claimed that they have democratic systems. Israel on the other hand claims to be a democracy despite the fact that Israeli law ensures the country remains institutionally racist.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

This was the response I expected. 'Arab Israelis may not enjoy equal rights in Israel but they have more rights than Jews living in Arab countries, so it's OK'. If that's how you look at it then you'll have to stop describing Israel as a democracy. Democratic countries bestow equal rights upon ALL their citizens. Israel does not, rather it classifies its citizens in to categories of 'A, 'B', 'C' and 'D' where each group is entitled to different rights.

Arab countries do not treat their Jewish inhabitants equally but neither is it claimed that they have democratic systems. Israel on the other hand claims to be a democracy despite the fact that Israeli law ensures the country remains institutionally racist.

[vmarks]

Israel is a democracy, and treats its Arab citizens equally. Big Mac's answer fails on this count. But I know you like hearing it because it feeds your pollyanna calls of racism that you so desire to bleat.

Secondly, democracies follow the laws and rulings that their democratic governments set forth. The Prime Minister announced which way he wished the ruling would go, and the democratically elected body (including the Arab representatives) voted differently. We don't always like which way politics grinds towards law, but we end up accepting the results or working to change them democratically.

So be thankful for Sharon, as much as it turns your stomach. Be thankful that the defence minister came up with a solution that wasn't even mandated by law, but volunteered it anyway.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Israel is a democracy, and treats its Arab citizens equally. Big Mac's answer fails on this count. But I know you like hearing it because it feeds your pollyanna calls of racism that you so desire to bleat.

Secondly, democracies follow the laws and rulings that their democratic governments set forth. The Prime Minister announced which way he wished the ruling would go, and the democratically elected body (including the Arab representatives) voted differently. We don't always like which way politics grinds towards law, but we end up accepting the results or working to change them democratically.

FFS, your law doesn't treat Arab citizens the same as we have seen here. The Arab Israeli victims of "Jewish" terrorism do not get treated like the Jewish victims of "Muslim" terrorism.

We have it here in black and white vmarks. There's simply no denying it.

"Jewish" terrorism isn't an "enemy of Israel". What message does this send?
Arab victims of terrorism aren't granted the same rights of terrorism as Jewish victims. What message does this send?

This is racism no matter how you try to spin it.

So be thankful for Sharon, as much as it turns your stomach. Be thankful that the defence minister came up with a solution that wasn't even mandated by law, but volunteered it anyway.

No, I will never be thankful for a mass murderous thug. And I will never be thankful for a nation that elects a mass murderous thug as their leader. And empty gestures are worthless when apartheid prevails. Just like it's done here where you (Israelis) have proven, yet again, that non-Jewish citizens are second class citizens in Israel.

Spin it like you want, dress it up in anyway you want and deny it all you want. This is institutionalised apartheid. And apartheid is racism.

[vmarks]

The law is the law. the Government is the government. The law was upheld, not bent. What you're really upset about is that four families don't have a lifetime entitlement to aid money taken from the rest of the society.

On condemning terrorism

By Jeff Jacoby


Differences between Jews and Muslims


http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | When Muslim extremists murder innocents in cold blood, there is often a politically-correct reluctance to call the killers terrorists, or to denounce them unequivocally. But there was no such reluctance last week when an Israeli Jew, Eden Natan Zada, opened fire inside the bus he was riding through the Arab town of Shfaram in northern Israel. Zada, 19, was active in the outlawed extremist Kach movement, and had deserted his army unit to protest Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. His rampage left four Arabs dead — Michel Bahus, 56; Nader Hayak, 55; Hazar Turki, 23, and her sister Dina, 21 — and another 12 wounded.


Zada was immediately labeled a terrorist and widely condemned. "A reprehensible act by a bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist," one Middle Eastern leader called the massacre. Another said he was "deeply shocked and distressed by the murder of innocent people." From a senior cleric came a statement expressing "disgust and severe condemnation at the despicable act . . . . a murder that is impossible to forgive."


Israel and its supporters complain with reason that Arab terrorism against Jews is too often shrugged off or excused by Arab and Muslim leaders, or that a murderous attack will be condemned in English for international consumption, while the government-run local media extols the killers in Arabic. But when the terrorists themselves are Jews — admittedly a rare event — do Israel's defenders live up to the standard they expect of others? How many of the statements quoted above, for example, would leading Israelis have been willing to make?


All of them.


It was Prime Minister Ariel Sharon who described Zada as a "bloodthirsty Jewish terrorist" and Shimon Peres, the vice prime minister, who referred to the attack as "the murder of innocent people." The cleric who pronounced Zada's "despicable act . . . impossible to forgive" was Rabbi Shlomo Amar, the Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel. And headlines in all the country's major newspapers bluntly labeled Zada a terrorist.


Equally harsh was the judgment of the Yesha Council, the organization of Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. Though passionately opposed to the Gaza evacuation, it denounced Zada as "a terrorist, a lunatic, and immoral." The chairman of the council added: "Murder is murder is murder, and there can be no other response but to denounce it completely and express revulsion." Especially noteworthy were the words of Rabbi Menachem Froman of the West Bank settlement of Tekoa, who spoke at the funeral of two of the Arab victims. "We the Jewish people in the land of Israel share in the pain and suffering" of the mourners, he declared. "All people who believe in G-d . . . express their outrage at such an act."




Indeed, so horrified were Israelis by Zada's bloody crime that, as the newspaper Ha'aretz reported on Sunday, "No cemetery will accept Jewish terrorist's body." (Zada was lynched by Shfaram residents in the wake of his attack.) The defense minister banned an interment in any military cemetery, saying Zada was "not worthy of being buried next to fallen soldiers." Neither his hometown of Rishon Letzion nor Tapuah, the settlement to which he had recently moved, wanted his grave to be within their borders.


The denunciations weren't limited to Israel. Among American Jews, too, the repudiation of the Israeli terrorist was swift and unsparing.


The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations issued a statement almost as soon as the news broke: "We unequivocally condemn today's attack. . . . Such acts must be denounced by all responsible leaders."


The American Jewish Committee "condemned in the harshest language" the slaughter in Shfaram, while the Zionist Organization of America called it "a terrorist act which we condemn unreservedly." The Anti-Defamation League said it was "horrified" by Zada's "unspeakable act," and the Simon Wiesenthal Center pronounced it "nothing less than a shameful act of terror that should be universally condemned."


Speaking for more than 900 Reform Jewish congregations nationwide, Rabbi David Sapirstein of the Religious Action Center in Washington deplored the massacre, calling it "a betrayal of the dream of Israel as a pluralistic nation and an attack" on its fundamental values. In Boston, the Rabbinical Assembly of Conservative Judaism assailed the killings as "a desecration of G-d's Name" and prayed that "never again will a Jew so wantonly spill blood."


The reaction of the Orthodox leadership was equally fervent. Agudath Israel of America said it was "tragic" that any Jew could adopt "the methods and madness of the enemies of the Jews." The Orthodox Union declared: "Acts of violence in the name of Zionism and/or Judaism must be eradicated from the midst of the Jewish people."


All of these statements — and this is far from a complete listing — were made within a day or two of the atrocity in Shfaram. Without having to be prompted, without making excuses, Jewish communities instinctively reacted to Zada's monstrous deed with disgust and outrage, all the more angrily because the perpetrator was a fellow Jew. When that is the way every community responds to terrorism, terrorism will come to an end.

[MacManMikeOSX]

Great the let's hate israel fest starts... lama lhitvakeach

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by MacManMikeOSX

Great the let's hate israel fest starts... lama lhitvakeach

Start? Pfftt, these guys have turned it into an art form.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

The law is the law. the Government is the government. The law was upheld, not bent. What you're really upset about is that four families don't have a lifetime entitlement to aid money taken from the rest of the society.

No, I'm upset that a so called democracy has an apartheid system in place. I'm upset that a so called western nation has institutionalised racism. And I'm upset that so called educated Western people still defend that apartheid state and system. But continue to spin this and try to deflect the blame. because that's the only thing you can do about this.

And why the f*ck are you, the moderator, trying to derail this thread???

[MacManMikeOSX]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No, I'm upset that a so called democracy has an apartheid system in place. I'm upset that a so called western nation has institutionalised racism. And I'm upset that so called educated Western people still defend that apartheid state and system. But continue to spin this and try to deflect the blame. because that's the only thing you can do about this.

And why the f*ck are you, the moderator, trying to derail this thread???

Israel is a first world nation not exactly western. Like the Arabs Jews are a native Middle Eastren Semitic people, whom were exiled originally by a corrupt western power i.e. Rome, there are many western influences though.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No, I'm upset that a so called democracy has an apartheid system in place. I'm upset that a so called western nation has institutionalised racism. And I'm upset that so called educated Western people still defend that apartheid state and system. But continue to spin this and try to deflect the blame. because that's the only thing you can do about this.

And why the f*ck are you, the moderator, trying to derail this thread???

I wasn't derailing. I already documented your derail earlier in the thread. I was sticking to discussing the original topic. Why you need to express your displeasure with my staying on topic with your dirty mouth, I can't discern.

We've covered why Israel isn't an apartheid state in the past. Repeatedly, in fact. This event brings nothing so new to the table. The PM thought he was a terrorist, many many Israelis condemned him and his actions as terrorism, the government voted and found that it was distasteful but that his murders were nothing so unique that it fit the definition of the law. I'm awfully sorry you feel that justifies your hatred, but I'm pleased that you wear it so proudly for us all to see, so that we may know you by it.

[Hawkeye_a]

Terrorist: a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

If it's a matter of definition....the 19-year old Israeli is a murderer acting alone, as opposed to Hammas or Al Quadea or any of the other organized terrorists who breed on the other side of the fence.

Apart from being a murdered, i think another crime was giving some of you anti-semites an excuse(if that) to bash Israel even more. How you biggots hide behind flags of freedom and justice and equality when things going on on your side of the fence is EXACTLY the opposite, whether it be at the social, economic, political, religious or ground level. Yet none of you 'pursuers of truth' and 'justice' ever seem to feel the compulsion to criticize the droves of terrorists(organized in groups) that originate on your side of the fence and purpotrate terror all over the world, yet you CHOOSE to hail them as martyrs. And now you make a big deal of a single 19-year old acting alone ? Shame on you.

von Wrangell, i suggest you look at the policies and practices of other nations in the Muslim world before you call Israel an apartheid state. What you are sugesting Israel is by that, is exactly what the nations in the Muslim world are practicing towards every other culture and religion.

Maybe we (as in the west) need to adopt the practices and laws from the Middle East and revore all the rights of Muslims the way Christians(or Jews or Hindus or Budhists) have none in that part of the world.

If equality is your goal, i suggest you start with the places where there is none at all, Saudi Arabia. Instead of bickering over this most isolated of events.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So a Jewish defector from the military who kills innocent Israelis is not an enemy of Israel? Thanks for proving my point.

Must you so obviously continue to adhere to this rhetoric? Things are not so black and white, as has been explained by several people in this thread. Gross oversimplifications are dangerous.