[max5]

RECIEVED THIS FROM HIS MAILING LIST:

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore

[JohnM15141]

Total bull sh*t!

Way to distort the facts

Originally Posted by max5

RECIEVED THIS FROM HIS MAILING LIST:

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore

[PacHead]

[PacHead]

[PacHead]

[goMac]

Originally Posted by JohnM15141

Total bull sh*t!

Way to distort the facts

Way to justify your argument.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by max5

<snip>

Yours,

Michael Moore

[besson3c]

Wow, he has a difference of opinion, exercises his first amendment rights, and now he should be killed, or at least subject to the worst kind of abuse imaginable (and perhaps legal) because he's a traitor?

Something tells me that if he was pro-Bush, he would be allowed to live...


You guys are over-the-top. Way too freakin' partisan. Step back and decompress yourselves... way too much intense energy.

[besson3c]

Re: the "traitor" title...

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
- Thomas Jefferson

[Kevin]

[budster101]

And we are allowed our opinions of him right? Freedom of speech is a two-way street.
He should move to France and run for office.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

And we are allowed our opinions of him right? Freedom of speech is a two-way street.
He should move to France and run for office.

Of course you are, but a difference in opinion doesn't justify making fun of his character, and advocating that somebody kill him. It means that you disagree with him, but respect his right to speak his mind and promote his viewpoints.

The truth is, a democracy needs both dissenters and promoters.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Of course you are, but a difference in opinion doesn't justify making fun of his character,

You are right. He deserves his character to be attacked for totally different reasons.

The truth is, a democracy needs both dissenters and promoters.

I agree. It's just kinda neat when they are honest.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You are right. He deserves his character to be attacked for totally different reasons.

What would those be?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by besson3c

It means that you disagree with him, but respect his right to speak his mind and promote his viewpoints.

We are at war and I do not have to respect the viewpoints of people who I find to be traitorous and aiding the enemy. We don't shoot traitors like we used to unfortunately.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by PacHead

We are at war and I do not have to respect the viewpoints of people who I find to be traitorous and aiding the enemy. We don't shoot traitors like we used to unfortunately.

How is he aiding the enemy?

[Cold Warrior]

This needs to go to the pol/war lounge.

[BlueSky]

Did the Pol Lounge spring a leak? Serious. Someone needs to put a finger in the dyke, and I don't mean Ellen.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The truth is, a democracy needs both dissenters and promoters.

What would be useful would be people willing to tell the truth (on both sides). Moore is no better than anyone on the right because he twists the facts to the point that they are misleading. Why can't people just cut the crap and be honest. If they are right, they are right, they don't need to lie or mislead to show that they are right.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

What would be useful would be people willing to tell the truth (on both sides). Moore is no better than anyone on the right because he twists the facts to the point that they are misleading. Why can't people just cut the crap and be honest. If they are right, they are right, they don't need to lie or mislead to show that they are right.

What is right though (right as in "correct")? Will there ever be a right, or just a bunch of different opinions and perceptions?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What is right though (right as in "correct")? Will there ever be a right, or just a bunch of different opinions and perceptions?

Either Iraq was a threat or it wasn't. We'll never know because neither side of the argument will be honest about the facts. It doesn't make any sense for us (the general population) to sit around and argue about whether they were because we have no idea what the truth is.

The Federal response to this hurricance was slow. Moore is right about that, and Bush admitted it as well. So, there is a simple "correct" in that situation. Instead of just blaming the likely cause (ineptitude and beauracracy), Moore choose to blame Iraq and racism while throwing in a little Cindy Sheehan.

[KeriVit]

Let's say it wasn't Michael Moore.

Let's say it was oh, ida know... ANYONE ELSE?

Then, what do you say? What's distorted? Just so I know, thanks.

[ThinkInsane]

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lounge/268449/im-going-very-candid-here-hurricane/

Your new here, so I'm not going to get you banned for doing exactly what I said not to do: Post blatantly political hurricane threads in the lounge. Off to politics it goes, and this is the only warning.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by KeriVit

Let's say it wasn't Michael Moore.

Let's say it was oh, ida know... ANYONE ELSE?

Then, what do you say? What's distorted? Just so I know, thanks.

If it was Mandy Moore, I'd take it much more seriously. Michael takes a little flaw and demonizes the whole government in a single breath.

[JohnM15141]

way to justify your counter-point

Originally Posted by goMac

Way to justify your argument.

[davesimondotcom]

Oh, I thought this was another Mandy Moore thread... she looked pretty good in that pic posted in that other thread.

Hmm...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by JohnM15141

way to justify your counter-point

A counter point usually... uhh... requires a argument to counter?

[loki74]

Michael Moore is a heartless, stupid, silly mοtherfυck. What the hell is his stupid fat mοhterfυcking ass doing to help Katrina's victims? Tell me. I'm sure if he donated one red penny he would have freaking gloated about it in that letter. What an asshole. What a hypocrite.

Besson3c: Dessent is the highest form of patriotism. Mudslinging, distortion, misrepresentation to advance a personal political agenda ≠ dissent.

[m a d r a]

what's the point writing bush a letter? - i doubt if he can read.

[Rolling Bones]

How could someone so fat (60% of the USA) and such a liar bring out so much hate in the religious ultra right.

You should be praying for him. Hate is not the way to the Lord.

After all, if you're a Christian you are worshipping a liberal.

To hate anyone is to hate Jesus.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

How could someone so fat (60% of the USA) and such a liar bring out so much hate in the religious ultra right.

You should be praying for him. Hate is not the way to the Lord.

After all, if you're a Christian you are worshipping a liberal.

To hate anyone is to hate Jesus.

You obviously don't know much about my faith. Learn your place. You do not tell me the "way to my God," and you do not dictate to me my emotions toward Christ.

This whole "you're a Christain, so you should..." stuff is ridiculous. Hold us to a double standard because we try to achive something higher? Hello? We're not all at that level yet. We're not all perfect. Christ made it so we don't have to be at that level yet, and He helps us try to get to that level.

God hates too. Granted, he hates the sin, not the sinner. And I try to do the same. But I'm not at the level yet where I can read such rank hypocrisy without getting pissed off, okay? Doubt you are either.

Also, God being a liberal? That's your opinion. Which you're stating as fact. Typical. I know for sure he isn't the sterotypical definition of the word "liberal" common today. In my opinion, which I don't state as fact, He is a compassionate conservative.

Furthermore, I am not "ultra right."

=============================

PS I do pray that he changes, comes to his senses, comes to Christ, disperses the hippies that worship him, and recants all the bullsh!t he has spoken. It's a tall order. In the meantime, I think I should be perfectly free to express my disgust for this man in its full magnitude.

One last thing: you haven't argued one single point I made. So why don't you try to make a real statement instead of a massive derail?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by loki74

You obviously don't know much about my faith. Learn your place.

As a Catholic I can tell you my Jesus would smack you for saying that.

[Busemann]

As always around here, lots of hilarious pics and personal stabs but no counterpoints

[loki74]

Originally Posted by goMac

As a Catholic I can tell you my Jesus would smack you for saying that.

And whys that?

1) Fat, what does that have to do with my religion?
2) How does he know I do not pray for him?
3) God being a liberal is his opinion which he is stating as fact.
4) He is dictating to me what I feel about Christ.

And a few other things...

The mudslinging on the left is just as bad if not worse than that on the right. As someone who for the most part tries to stay calm in the face of ridiculousness, I do not think that the once-in-a-while burst of massive anger and passion is not that huge of a deal. I still love God, and He still loves me. No judgements of yours or anyone elses can change this.

PS not to mention that most hate-posts on this thread are directed at a forum member and contain no points, only hate. My post was not directed at a forum member, and I have made arguments.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by loki74

And whys that?

1) Fat, what does that have to do with my religion?
2) How does he know I do not pray for him?
3) God being a liberal is his opinion which he is stating as fact.
4) He is dictating to me what I feel about Christ.

And a few other things...

The mudslinging on the left is just as bad if not worse than that on the right. As someone who for the most part tries to stay calm in the face of ridiculousness, I do not think that the once-in-a-while burst of massive anger and passion is not that huge of a deal. I still love God, and He still loves me. No judgements of yours or anyone elses can change this.

PS not to mention that most hate-posts on this thread are directed at a forum member and contain no points, only hate. My post was not directed at a forum member, and I have made arguments.

Wasn't one of Jesus's biggest teachings to not assume someone is below you simply because they have a different religion or different believes and to be understanding?

Telling someone to "learn their place" isn't exactly big on the tolerance factor.

Jesus didn't tell people to hate sin. He told people it's not your job to pretend you are god. Let people be and god will do his job in the end.

In essence, Jesus basically said anyone mudslinging in his name and trying to impose their view of god on anyone else is in the wrong. Jesus did after all say god created and loves all of us, so we shouldn't project any hate on someone else. Even Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet for these teachings.

If anything, Rolling Bones knows more about what is written about Jesus than you do. I think Jesus, if he were alive, would have a few words with you for suggesting someone needs to "learn their place". Jesus, if anything told us you don't gain levels, that's not what religion is about. Religion is about understanding other people, not imposing on them (yes, that includes homosexuals).

It just annoys me when people use the name of Jesus to say who is good and who is bad and who deserves what. It shows a basic lack of understanding of Christianity.

Ugh. I can't believe I just argued the Jesus viewpoint...

[Millennium]

Moore's "journalism" couldn't be more yellow if he shot it in sepia-tone.

[hyteckit]

From Newt Gingrich,

"I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?"

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...09-02-14-10-02

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by loki74

Michael Moore is a heartless, stupid, silly mοtherfυck. What the hell is his stupid fat mοhterfυcking ass doing to help Katrina's victims? Tell me. I'm sure if he donated one red penny he would have freaking gloated about it in that letter. What an asshole. What a hypocrite.

Besson3c: Dessent is the highest form of patriotism. Mudslinging, distortion, misrepresentation to advance a personal political agenda ≠ dissent.

He's probably made enough money by now that he is set for life - making money and getting people to see his movies are about the only personal interests of his I can fathom. I would suspect that his beliefs are honest and sincerely meaningful to him, and not just an attempt to benefit his own interests. You just disagree, and that's alright. I don't agree with everything about him either.

As far as the possibility of mudslinging, distortion, etc. This obviously happens among pro and anti-Michael Moore camps. If the pro-MM people are not really legitimate dissenters, what does that make the anti-MM mudslinging/distortion people?

I'd say oppressors.

There are plenty of mudslingers and distorters involved in politics, MM is just one of several.

[Randman]

If Moore wasn't promoting his own agenda, why release the email? Lots of people email the white house each day.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Randman

If Moore wasn't promoting his own agenda, why release the email? Lots of people email the white house each day.

Ego?

All I'm saying is that he probably believes in his cause strongly, and his actions are not simply out of a desire to promote some sort of agenda which personally benefits him, the way that politicians develop agendas that benefit them/their party. How could a big MM following benefit him? More money? More ticket sales?

You can argue that *everybody* with an opinion has some sort of political agenda, I guess I'm just (awkwardly, I know) trying to suggest that MM isn't a particularly special case.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by besson3c

He's probably made enough money by now that he is set for life - making money and getting people to see his movies are about the only personal interests of his I can fathom.

It's rare that people who make enough money to be truly "set for life" stop there. This is a fact he often brings up in his criticism of the free-market system. Why should it not be just as true of him as of anyone else?

I would suspect that his beliefs are honest and sincerely meaningful to him, and not just an attempt to benefit his own interests. You just disagree, and that's alright. I don't agree with everything about him either.

Oh, I'm quite sure of his sincerity. As far as his beliefs go, I believe he is sorely misguided and perhaps even somewhat paranoid, but I do not believe that he is completely out of his mind.

It is his methods -manipulation of information and hidden bias for the sole reason of influencing his viewers to share his beliefs: in short, "yellow journalism"- which I find abominable. If he were to present his arguments honestly, I would have no problem with him; he does sometimes bring up important facts. Most of the time, however, what he presents is either grossly distorted or outright fabricated.

As far as the possibility of mudslinging, distortion, etc. This obviously happens among pro and anti-Michael Moore camps.

It does indeed, but no one on either side does more mudslinging and distortion than Moore himself.

If the pro-MM people are not really legitimate dissenters, what does that make the anti-MM mudslinging/distortion people?

I'd say oppressors.

Hardly. Oppression implies force, and no one is forcing Moore to not speak (a few crazies occasionally try, but even the rest of the anti-Moore crowd doesn't take them seriously). Oppression implies the power to use force, of which Moore's detractors have none. Of course, this doesn't stop Moore from calling them oppressors anyway.

But then, Moore's supporters aren't illegitimate dissenters. The only thing illegitimate about most of them is their argumentative technique, and this shouldn't come as a surprise: they're just emulating Moore.

There are plenty of mudslingers and distorters involved in politics, MM is just one of several.

Indeed. Bill O'Reilly is his flip side from the other end of the spectrum. I used to think Limbaugh was his flip side, until I realized that Limbaugh has a little more integrity: at least he doesn't pretend to be unbiased. This pretense of fairness and objectivity, however, is Moore's stock in trade.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's rare that people who make enough money to be truly "set for life" stop there. This is a fact he often brings up in his criticism of the free-market system. Why should it not be just as true of him as of anyone else?

Oh, I'm quite sure of his sincerity. As far as his beliefs go, I believe he is sorely misguided and perhaps even somewhat paranoid, but I do not believe that he is completely out of his mind.

It is his methods -manipulation of information and hidden bias for the sole reason of influencing his viewers to share his beliefs: in short, "yellow journalism"- which I find abominable. If he were to present his arguments honestly, I would have no problem with him; he does sometimes bring up important facts. Most of the time, however, what he presents is either grossly distorted or outright fabricated.

It does indeed, but no one on either side does more mudslinging and distortion than Moore himself.

Hardly. Oppression implies force, and no one is forcing Moore to not speak (a few crazies occasionally try, but even the rest of the anti-Moore crowd doesn't take them seriously). Oppression implies the power to use force, of which Moore's detractors have none. Of course, this doesn't stop Moore from calling them oppressors anyway.

Indeed. Bill O'Reilly is his flip side from the other end of the spectrum. I used to think Limbaugh was his flip side, until I realized that Limbaugh has a little more integrity: at least he doesn't pretend to be unbiased. This pretense of fairness and objectivity, however, is Moore's stock in trade.

Good points, I actually agree with you. I guess I've changed my mind a little, but I do find it a little one-sided when people join the Moore hating bandwagon, but give people like Bill O'Reilly a free pass.

If you buy into the idea that distortion of any kind is undesirable, then I think this crosses partisan lines and we need to be fair by calling both the Left and Right on their distortion where it occurs.

However, if you blame Moore but love distorters from the Right (or fail to acknowledge or take a quasi-objective look at something that is allegedly distortion occurring within your own party), then it becomes partisan, and that is where I take issue with the Moore bashers. I hate the whole "he's bashing our guy so we better hate him" attitude.

I do think he's a distorter, and I'm against this in general. However, I also think that many people are just jumping aboard the partisan bandwagon and probably couldn't even identify his distortion without referring to some party talking points.

Does this make any sense?

[loki74]

Originally Posted by goMac

Telling someone to "learn their place" isn't exactly big on the tolerance factor.

Um, I felt they were out of line. How is that tolerance or intolerance?

Originally Posted by goMac

In essence, Jesus basically said anyone mudslinging in his name and trying to impose their view of god on anyone else is in the wrong.

I don't think I invoked the name of the Lord at any point... I mean, I even said "I am not at that level yet," clearly meaning that I do not represent God or His will.

Originally Posted by goMac

If anything, Rolling Bones knows more about what is written about Jesus than you do. I think Jesus, if he were alive, would have a few words with you for suggesting someone needs to "learn their place". Jesus, if anything told us you don't gain levels, that's not what religion is about. Religion is about understanding other people, not imposing on them (yes, that includes homosexuals).

Okay... wow. Where to start? Firstly, I know that religion isn't about gaining levels. I know that it is not my actions that save me. But does that mean that I shouldn't even make an effort to be more like Him? That I should just bask in my sin because I know He'll save me? I dunno. I think I should try to be more like Him, because I know that I would be much better for it. If I was more like Him, I probably wouldnt have exploded in my initial post. I believe that was Rolling Bones's objection. If anything, he invoked God to bring judgement upon me. That's why I told him to learn his place. I didn't mean for it to be taken as me being above anyone. And what do homosexuals have to do with anything in this thread?? I don't seem to recall ever mentioning them...

You say that Christianity is not about "gaining levels." I agree. And this is in direct contradition to the essense of Rolling Bones's post. He was essentially saying that because I am a Christian, I should be at the level at which I do not feel anger or hate. This is not true, because Christianity revolves around the saving sacrifice of Christ. (But as I said earlier in this post--one should try to be more like Him, hence my use of the word "level")

If I were to say "I really think you're out of line" instead of "learn your place," would this be an issue to you? Caus thats' really what I meant... Does the phrase "learn your place" have some connotation I am unaware of? If so I apologize. Anyway, I'm saying this because that seems to be your beef with what I said... and I think you may be mistaking my meaning.

oh and one last thing, doesnt really matter... "if He were alive" I think you meant "is He was here." Jesus is alive, at least thats what I've been taught... just a technicality though.

===============

Once again, MM has used the death and suffering of others to advance his agenda and try to spread hate. He is not helping. He is using. People died. And he is using that. Like a tool. I find it apalling.

I totally agree with the concept of dissent. It's what makes this country great. But when you become vile like Macheal Moore, you have no respect for injured or lost lives, regardless of whether you're right or left, regardless of whether your points are good or bad, you are a traitor. Not a trator in the usual sense, (as in string you up for treason kind of traitor) but in the sense that you have misrepresented and misused your right to "dissent," for something bearing the semblace of dissent that is really just hate.

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Busemann

As always around here, lots of hilarious pics and personal stabs but no counterpoints

Actually Millennium debunked the whole letter in a post in another thread (Millennium, I hope you don't mind me posting this). No one has any real counterpoints here because we all know it's such BS (IMO).

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by goMac

Wasn't one of Jesus's biggest teachings to not assume someone is below you simply because they have a different religion or different believes and to be understanding?

? i thought one of his "biggest teachings" was that he was, in fact, god. further, he preached a single way into heaven. granted, he preached that offering to all mankind - not solely the jews - which he delared as sinful. so in that sense he preached equality of opportunity. that is not to say that the bible demonstrates all persons (apart from the sin nature) have equal standing before god. [edit: removed out of place sentence fragment.]

Originally Posted by goMac

Telling someone to "learn their place" isn't exactly big on the tolerance factor.

you speak this as if the bible shows jesus as always being tolerant. rather, he was often portrayed as being quite intolerant as his dealings with the pharisees and the temple vendors adequately demonstrates. further, loki adequately couched that phrase within a specific context in his post, explaining himself at the time. it didn't stand alone and judging it specifically out of its context is a strange thing.

Originally Posted by goMac

Jesus didn't tell people to hate sin. He told people it's not your job to pretend you are god. Let people be and god will do his job in the end.

well he certainly did not tell them to embrace and comfort sin. he told them to sin no more. to forsake their families and possession to pursue the holiness of god. he preached more polarization than he preached tolerance and broad acceptance of contrary teachings. granted, he did indicate that the wheat and the chaff; the sheep and the goats; would be dealt with by god in the end. but if he were content that people should let each other alone with regard to religion and righteousness he never would have began preaching himself.

Originally Posted by goMac

In essence, Jesus basically said anyone mudslinging in his name and trying to impose their view of god on anyone else is in the wrong. Jesus did after all say god created and loves all of us, so we shouldn't project any hate on someone else. Even Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet for these teachings.

again, jesus clearly sought to impose his view of god on all that would hear. he instructed his disciples to do the same. while he was preaching he specifically sent them out to carry his word to others, instructing them to shake the dust from their cloaks from towns who would not hear them.

i get the impression that you have not critically read the new testament to make some of these statements. even more interesting is how in one breath you bring jesus' name in to support pop-psychology and pop-politics views and then in the next breath essentially say others shouldn't use his name in support of their views. just because jesus may have turned water into wine doesn't mean you get exclusive rights to use him to water your whines to make them grow.

it seemed to me that loki, for the most part, was applying his perception of jesus (and jesus' role in his life) more to his own life than to support any argument. and when someone brought it up i think he adequately explained himself in that regard.

loki: remember. enjoying life is putting joy into it. it's okay to hate the evil and wicked people (and not just the sins they commit) - according to the bible the righteous rejoice at the wicked's demise.

laeth

[Buckaroo]

WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?...

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by PotHead

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Bah. You pussy! Here some of the ORIGINALS:

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by loki74

You obviously don't know much about my faith. Learn your place. You do not tell me the "way to my God," and you do not dictate to me my emotions toward Christ.

This whole "you're a Christain, so you should..." stuff is ridiculous. Hold us to a double standard because we try to achive something higher? Hello? We're not all at that level yet. We're not all perfect. Christ made it so we don't have to be at that level yet, and He helps us try to get to that level.

God hates too. Granted, he hates the sin, not the sinner. And I try to do the same. But I'm not at the level yet where I can read such rank hypocrisy without getting pissed off, okay? Doubt you are either.

Also, God being a liberal? That's your opinion. Which you're stating as fact. Typical. I know for sure he isn't the sterotypical definition of the word "liberal" common today. In my opinion, which I don't state as fact, He is a compassionate conservative.

Furthermore, I am not "ultra right."

Nah, you aren't Christian, you are a liberal heretic. Your faith is flawed and your thoughts are tainted.

As a Catholic and a true Christian I feel sorry for you being so adamant in the heresy. Your soul is lost then.

As a Christian you *should* behave in a certain way. You should NEVER conciously break the teachings of Christ and then conceal behind an excuse of imperfection. That shows the fundamental corruption in your heresy.

God does not hate. God is love. Ask Him for forgiveness and if your heart is true you will receive it. Asking isn't enough. If there isn't true regret, if there isn't anything behind it other than a desire to absolute yourself then your soul is forever lost. Your soul can't hide from the face of God.

As a Christian you SHOULD behave in a certain way. Christianity IS a WAY OF LIFE. Not some moral AA with a 12 step program to free you from your sins. No, unlike AA you have to realize your sin, face it, pray for forgiveness, mean it and act from the very core of your soul to become a better person. Life is about learning. The lesson is over when we die.

I despise heresy, it is one of the single most destructive and rotten things that has defiled the Christian religion. There is only one religion, there is only one Church. The Roman Catholic Church.

The heretics are always up to no good. The American heretics are no better than the Muslim heretics. No self discipline, no honor, no truth. Religion isn't a book-of-the-month club. God is real, God is alive and God has sent His children a message about 2000 years ago. Listen to it.

cheers

W-Y

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by PacHead

We are at war and I do not have to respect the viewpoints of people who I find to be traitorous and aiding the enemy. We don't shoot traitors like we used to unfortunately.

Blind hatred is also helping the enemy; while you are busy being hateful, the enemy triggers you to waste more energy and petty little details.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

Bah. You pussy! Here some of the ORIGINALS:

<interesting picts>]

Interesting!