[Cody Dawg]

This is not a hurricane thread, per se, but it seems to me that this issue with New Orleans and people like Kanye West has done more to further divide people in this country in terms of race than anything else in the last 50 years and that is very sad.

I resent people like Kanye West who claim that the Bush administration didn't react fast enough because "Bush doesn't care about blacks." I will concede that Bush should have made public announcements faster than he did, but what about the mayor of New Orleans? Why didn't he bus the people out of New Orleans using city transportation before the hurricane hit instead of trying to blame Bush afterwards? Why doesn't he accept partial responsibility?

Who is committing most of the crimes in New Orleans? In photo after photo I see the blacks. Pictures of blacks who are looting...pictures of blacks who are accused of raping and killing innocents...pictures of blacks who are shooting at the relief helicopters, the National Guard, and others.

Why doesn't Kanye West ask his fellow black countrymen to step up and act the right way? Why not appeal to his fellow black Americans and ask them to do the right things, to stop committing crimes, to stop raping and killing people? I haven't seen whites running out of the stores, grinning and carrying big bags of loot, and if you have a picture of a white looter, please post it? I would love to be proved wrong - seriously.

I am so sick of the race card being played over and over again. It's getting old.

Seriously, if someone has some good information to share with me as to how to rationalize the way that these criminals are acting I would like to hear it. I am having a hard time sympathizing with Kanye West because while he is claiming that Bush and whites do not care, I see white National Guardsmen going in to help save a city from hoodlums and criminals, most of whom seem to be black.

This thread is about how RACE matters in this mess. I don't think it does, unless one wants to point out that it matters when considering who is committing the crimes in New Orleans? I want to understand - truly understand - how people like Kanye West can ignore that it SEEMS to be the blacks committing atrocious crimes in the aftermath of Katrina?

And before anyone accuses me of being a racist, I am on record with National Public Radio, interviewed yesterday, as saying that my home is open to ANYONE who needs a home. I have been active in setting up Craigslist.org and making it a place where people can go to find shelter or offer shelter, regardless of skin color or race.

I am truly having a hard time with this so maybe some enlightened MacNNers can help me understand.

Peace.

[Kerrigan]

And recall that when the tsunami hit Asia, there was far more devastation from flooding and yet the society didn't break down, which it did in New Orleans. There was no raping and anarchy in the tsunami aftermath.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Who is committing most of the crimes in New Orleans? In photo after photo I see the blacks. Pictures of blacks who are looting...pictures of blacks who are accused of raping and killing innocents...pictures of blacks who are shooting at the relief helicopters, the National Guard, and others.

As I recall, the vast majority of people left in New Orleans are black. I'm not excusing their actions, far from it; the behavior of some people in New Orleans discusts me. But, it is unfair to say that it is mostly blacks committing the crimes in New Orleans when it is mostly blacks left in New Orleans.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

As I recall, the vast majority of people left in New Orleans are black. I'm not excusing their actions, far from it; the behavior of some people in New Orleans discusts me. But, it is unfair to say that it is mostly blacks committing the crimes in New Orleans when it is mostly blacks left in New Orleans.

How come the Black people did not leave?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

How come the Black people did not leave?

Apparently many couldn't afford to. But, one must remember that even under normal circumstances, 67% of New Orleans' population is black.

[Kerrigan]

I don't think it was their fault that they stayed in New Orleans. Apparently a huge portion of the black population there have no automobiles, and there were no evacuation buses running because the mayor in an incompetent arse. The only option was to talk out of New Orleans which of course would not have been quick enough.

But the violence that followed has no excuse.

This is worse than 9/11 and Bush needs to be held accountable for his sluggish response to this.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This is not a hurricane thread, per se, but it seems to me that this issue with New Orleans and people like Kanye West has done more to further divide people in this country in terms of race than anything else in the last 50 years and that is very sad.

I really doubt that.

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, it seems as though there is a LOT to learn from this experience.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

But the violence that followed has no excuse.

I understand. Nevertheless, how do you explain it?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This is not a hurricane thread, per se, but it seems to me that this issue with New Orleans and people like Kanye West has done more to further divide people in this country in terms of race than anything else in the last 50 years and that is very sad.

It's almost exactly 50 years since Rosa Parks was arrested. Please don't make these ignorant comments.

[Cody Dawg]

You're right: 50 years since Rosa Parks.

We now have national icons like Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, and Halle Berry. Don't try to tell me that racism is in the same place as it was then. It should not be. We're a long way from that, you know? The list could go on and on and on with exemplary black success stories.

That's why people calling the race card on Bush - whose former national defense secretary and current Secretary of State is black - is a not an excuse for explaining why certain *groups* of people are the ones committing atrocities.

What this has done is to illustrate that we have domestic terrorists living amongst us: Americans.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

We're a long way from that, you know? The list could go on and on and on with exemplary black success stories.

What do you mean by, "We're a long way" and does that mean there is no racism at all anymore?

"Exemplary black success stories"; what do you mean? And would you generalize that to the whole African-American population?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You're right: 50 years since Rosa Parks.

Which was the mother of the civil rights movement. It was the spark that lit the civil rights movement.

We now have national icons like Oprah Winfrey, Condoleeza Rice, and Halle Berry. Don't try to tell me that racism is in the same place as it was then. It should not be. We're a long way from that, you know? The list could go on and on and on with exemplary black success stories.

Of course you aren't same in the still place. Why is it that people always change the argument?? You said: ".....people like Kanye West has done more to further divide people in this country in terms of race than anything else in the last 50 years and that is very sad."

Please try to remember your own arguments in the future.

That's why people calling the race card on Bush - whose former national defense secretary and current Secretary of State is black - is a not an excuse for explaining why certain *groups* of people are the ones committing atrocities.

Condoleeza Rice is probably the first African American with a chance to become the President of the US. Compare her with a person like MLK or some of the many other persons from the civil rights movement and you'll see how wrong that is. And have you heard of a certain Sally Hemmings? That's one of the things that comes up when talking about CR.

What this has done is to illustrate that we have domestic terrorists living amongst us: Americans.

Time to bomb areas of the US? Or does that only apply to other people?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

How come the Black people did not leave?

because they are generally the poorist part of the population, oh and up here in Canada we got to see some white folks looting too. Cody you should be ashamed of yourself, you are sounding like a racist.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

I understand. Nevertheless, how do you explain it?

People with the most usally turn the worst when they lose having the most. There is no reason why the Army was not there with in 2 days.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by Athens

because they are generally the poorest part of the population, oh and up here in Canada we got to see some white folks looting too. Cody you should be ashamed of yourself, you are sounding like a racist.

Southern culture is different from the rest of the country. I come from Colorado, and I had to live in Georgia for 4 months while attending school at Ft Gordon. Slower pace lifestyle (much to my annoyance), definitely less affluent, and racist attitudes are still present there to some extent.
The staff of every fast food establishment is nearly 100% black (as well as most of the no-education-required jobs). And the slums in the South are nearly 100% black (and they are truly SLUMS).

Yea, I'll stick to the mid-west. The best place to live in the US (in my opinion). Less urbanized (ick!) as well.

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

...
Who is committing most of the crimes in New Orleans? In photo after photo I see the blacks. Pictures of blacks who are looting...pictures of blacks who are accused of raping and killing innocents...pictures of blacks who are shooting at the relief helicopters, the National Guard, and others.

Why doesn't Kanye West ask his fellow black countrymen to step up and act the right way? Why not appeal to his fellow black Americans and ask them to do the right things, to stop committing crimes, to stop raping and killing people?....

you're forgetting rule no.1 - "it's alway's whitey's fault"

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This is not a hurricane thread, per se, but it seems to me that this issue with New Orleans and people like Kanye West has done more to further divide people in this country in terms of race than anything else in the last 50 years and that is very sad.

Hardly. Ten years from now -- even ten months from now -- nobody will remember who this guy was. His comments are a blip in history.

[Hawkeye_a]

When i saw the pictures on the areas hit byt he hurricane, i thought it was some third world country in Africa, because all the people in the pictures were predominantely black.

As far as the crimes that followed...... inexcusable. And yeah...i dont remember hearing of any such thing after the tsunamis...of course coverage in the remote regions of where the tsunami hit were not nearly as good as this.

The connection to race is kinda circumstantial imo. I think its got more to do with socio-economic factors than it does with race. Even though it just so happens that race seems to be another distinguishing factor here.

Just my opinion.

[pooka]

Actually, I thought there were reports of widespread rape and abductions in the area.

[Sky Captain]

Kayne West should be arrested for trying to incite riots.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by pooka

Actually, I thought there were reports of widespread rape and abductions in the area.

There were.

When you look at it, racism has never really gone away. It's latest form is just in class-ism. While whites cannot control what blacks do, they can trap them in the vicious cycle of class-ism. If blacks are kept in lower class jobs, they can't afford schooling, they can't afford education (they can't even usually afford proper housing a transportation), and therefore they will never move up in live. Whites typically just claim blacks are lazy, pull out the Horatio Alger argument, and no one knows the better.

This is still true to a degree in the North, but I'm guess it's far more true in the south.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Kayne West should be arrested for trying to incite riots.

The man was just saying what he thought, and he isn't the only one with that opinion.

I hear many things on the Christian TV stations that I could consider riot inciting material. But when a black guy gets up on TV and says something it's like everyone freaks out.

And so far there haven't been any riots because of what he said. Just like there are never any riots from the crazy Christian networks (and I don't mean PAX).

[Sky Captain]

I'm of the opinion that Kayne is a bloviating idiot.
And he's full of ****.
I'm not the only one of that opinion.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I'm of the opinion that Kayne is a bloviating idiot.
And he's full of ****.
I'm not the only one of that opinion.

That's good for you. You're welcome to that too.

[ghporter]

A lot of people in New Orleans depended on public transportation-they had a fairly good system in place that (unlike many cities) served most of the city pretty well. Basically, if you lived in most parts of New Orleans, you did not need a car to go to work, grocery shop, etc. So how do you evacuate when the busses stop?

There are also a lot of folks there that had a family member who was not particularly mobile-have you noticed the number of wheel chairs in some pictures of hurricane victims? Others were apparently afraid that their houses would be easy targets for thieves if they left them.

Then there were people who seem to have stayed because they new the middle class folks would evacuate, and once everyone was gone, they could loot to thier hearts' content. This would be a VERY small number of (incredibly stupid) people, but even a small number can be a substantial instigating factor.

I still think everyone outside New Orleans should keep their traps shut about why it took so long to get help into the city. The fact is that it takes a lot of time to coordinate such a massive relief effort and get the supplies and people into position, and the storm had much, much more serious affects than anyone predicted. For example, it seems that noone ever considered that the whole metro New Orleans area could be completely isolated by flood waters...

So Al Sharpton, Kayne West and everyone else who hasn't had the opportunity to coordinate and set up ANY kind of large scale operation of any kind should, respectfully, STFU. The reason a lot of black people are in need of help is because New Orleans is populated by far more black people than other groups, and the reason it took so long to get the help to them had NOTHING to do with their skin color and EVERYTHING to do with how massive the storm's damage was.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ghporter

So Al Sharpton, Kayne West and everyone else who hasn't had the opportunity to coordinate and set up ANY kind of large scale operation of any kind should, respectfully, STFU. The reason a lot of black people are in need of help is because New Orleans is populated by far more black people than other groups, and the reason it took so long to get the help to them had NOTHING to do with their skin color and EVERYTHING to do with how massive the storm's damage was.

I don't think they're arguing it very well, but moreover the question is why the black people in New Orleans do not have transportation. Most of the white people seemed to get out no problem. You have to wonder why FEMA didn't know about the convention center until two days after we knew about it. It was all over the news, this discussion board, but FEMA didn't know. That doesn't sound like a co-ordination problem to me. That seems like a lack of effort, for whatever reason.

[Sky Captain]

Maybe a MACNN board member needs to head FEMA.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

And recall that when the tsunami hit Asia, there was far more devastation from flooding and yet the society didn't break down, which it did in New Orleans. There was no raping and anarchy in the tsunami aftermath.

Wrong. It just didn't make the news. There were incidents of corruption, rape, theft and other bad stuff.

I was working at a newspaper in SE Asia and heard from people on the scene.

The truth of the matter is when tragedy strikes, it'll bring out the best and it'll bring out the worst in others. That's true no matter where you go in the world.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by goMac

I don't think they're arguing it very well, but moreover the question is why the black people in New Orleans do not have transportation. Most of the white people seemed to get out no problem. You have to wonder why FEMA didn't know about the convention center until two days after we knew about it. It was all over the news, this discussion board, but FEMA didn't know. That doesn't sound like a co-ordination problem to me. That seems like a lack of effort, for whatever reason.

Um... DIDN'T YOU READ MY FIRST PARAGAPH???

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Um... DIDN'T YOU READ MY FIRST PARAGAPH???

Sure did. And like I said, it seems like a lot of the upper class/middle class/white people got out. I remember seeing the pictures of the highways clogged. I don't think it's that people depend on public transportation. Usually people use public transportation when they can't afford a car.

If you think about it, those who could afford it could probably also rent a car too.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Maybe a MACNN board member needs to head FEMA.

Maybe you should give me an argument to as why I'm paying FEMA with my tax dollars and they can't even find where the survivors are when CNN seems to be able to.

[Sky Captain]

Maybe CNN needs to be in charge of search and rescue?

You have no scope of what FEMAs job is.
They are not search and rescue.

Another victim of television.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Randman

The truth of the matter is when tragedy strikes, it'll bring out the best and it'll bring out the worst in others. That's true no matter where you go in the world.

Sad but true.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Maybe CNN needs to be in charge of search and rescue?

You have no scope of what FEMAs job is.
They are not search and rescue.

Another victim of television.

Then uhhhh... what is FEMA's job? Cause... I thought it was to manage disaster relief. But apparently I'm wrong. Apparently their job is to sit on their a$$es and watch people die and be raped for a few days.

My bad.

[Kerrigan]

The sad thing is that after all this mess, there will likely be another deadly hurricane this season which will hit Florida or some other state, and thousands of people STILL won't evacuate.

I'm not saying there will be another Katrina, but there will be another hurricane and people will still sit around in the path of the storm and think they can "ride it out".

[Sky Captain]

Manage distster relief.
Organize food, water shelter mobilization.
Not search and rescue.

And it takes DAYS to get stuff loaded and moving.
Just what part of that can some not understand.
Or are they so filled with partisan hate it clouds all their reasoning?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Manage distster relief.
Organize food, water shelter mobilization.
Not search and rescue.

And it takes DAYS to get stuff loaded and moving.
Just what part of that can some not understand.
Or are they so filled with partisan hate it clouds all their reasoning?

Great. It takes days. You miss the point.

a) Everyone knew how bad this would be. We knew the day before what was going to happen. Bush even knew it. He declared NO a disaster area BEFORE the hurricane hit. Where was FEMA than?
b) Even if the supplies did not reach the disaster area in time (which seems very odd to me considering FedEx can get me a package from Taiwan overnight, maybe FEMA should ship FedEx), where was the securing of law and order? FEMA is, after all, part of Homeland Security, so they should have that power, right?

[Cody Dawg]

While whites cannot control what blacks do, they can trap them in the vicious cycle of class-ism. If blacks are kept in lower class jobs, they can't afford schooling, they can't afford education (they can't even usually afford proper housing a transportation), and therefore they will never move up in live.

goMac: What you said is a blatant piece of racist crap. You're telling us, basically, that black people are not capable of creating their own futures and controlling their own destinies. That is one of the most racist things I've ever heard. You're saying that blacks are "controlled" by whites and my black friend who is here visiting for lunch (we're having coconut shrimp ) is telling me, point blank, that you "are full of crap and do not understand the black person or culture at all if you think that blacks are still controlled by whites and that you should understand blacks have more pride than to be 'controlled' by anyone."

Blacks are not "controlled" by anyone, goMac. This is America: Some people, regardless of skin color or the beauty or lack thereof of their faces, regardless of their gender, will have to work harder than others to succeed or to do the "right" things, but they still do them and they are still successful.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by goMac

Maybe you should give me an argument to as why I'm paying FEMA with my tax dollars and they can't even find where the survivors are when CNN seems to be able to.

Umm... Because FEMA already knows about the survivors CNN is interviewing, and that CNN isn't finding anyone NEW?

And how about thinking about the fact that a small helicopter can put a CNN reporter and camera man down just about anywhere, but that it takes a larger helicopter to even bring in the smallest of recovery resources...Or that to get people out takes the ability to DRIVE them out through streets that have to be cleared first...Or that getting these scared and hungry people to cooperate enough to make it an orderly departure that doesn't get anyone else hurt takes a lot of work?

If you think it's easy, you have NEVER done anything that took coordinating more than a few people at a time.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Umm... Because FEMA already knows about the survivors CNN is interviewing, and that CNN isn't finding anyone NEW?

And how about thinking about the fact that a small helicopter can put a CNN reporter and camera man down just about anywhere, but that it takes a larger helicopter to even bring in the smallest of recovery resources...Or that to get people out takes the ability to DRIVE them out through streets that have to be cleared first...Or that getting these scared and hungry people to cooperate enough to make it an orderly departure that doesn't get anyone else hurt takes a lot of work?

If you think it's easy, you have NEVER done anything that took coordinating more than a few people at a time.

I agree.

I think that the fact there are search teams in some areas may be pushing other agencies, like CNN, in other areas, accelerating the process of finding people. There is only so many helicopters you can put in one place.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Umm... Because FEMA already knows about the survivors CNN is interviewing, and that CNN isn't finding anyone NEW?

And how about thinking about the fact that a small helicopter can put a CNN reporter and camera man down just about anywhere, but that it takes a larger helicopter to even bring in the smallest of recovery resources...Or that to get people out takes the ability to DRIVE them out through streets that have to be cleared first...Or that getting these scared and hungry people to cooperate enough to make it an orderly departure that doesn't get anyone else hurt takes a lot of work?

If you think it's easy, you have NEVER done anything that took coordinating more than a few people at a time.

Huh? Again I'm not saying they needed supplies. At the very least, they needed people THERE to secure the area and manage things. You're telling me with all of Homeland Security at their disposal they couldn't even do that?

I watch CNN interview FEMA and they said point blank "We know there are survivors here with no food and rapes going on. We knew this two days ago. Where were you?" and FEMA's best response was "I don't know".

This is FEMA. This is not the local boy scout group. They should have plains already stocked, loaded, and ready to go before any disaster happens.

[Peder Rice]

For Pete's sake, if one is poor, it is far more difficult in the United States to become wealthy than if one already has wealth. The United States caters to the wealthy and ignores the poor. I dare not say that the United States actively seeks out to - generally speaking, of course - run the blacks into the ground by keeping them uneducated. No, but I do think that the United States likes to keep its foot grinding in to the back of the head of the poor.

"But they should work harder! Why aren't the poor attending school? Why are they always ****ing and having babies? They should know better!" I always hear from the typical, staunch Republican. And it makes me sick.

Try to be poor some day. Try to have an abusive parent. Try to live in an environment that promotes the continuation of poverty on every level in the form of temptation and disability.

The slums are littered with drugs, and the temptation from peer pressure et al to conform and use drugs as well is substantial. The conditions of the slum are atrocious, and living day after day in hell would give me a damned good reason to find refuge in the satisfaction of getting high. North Dakota, not known for its slums at all, is the capitol of meth and alcohol abuse, largely because the state is so stricken with depression that the mood-altering effects of drugs are the only reasonable option for many.

Many find themselves incapable of advancing to the next level. Perhaps an abusive father instilled incredibly low self-esteem, perhaps violence in the schools kept the student from keeping his grades higher, perhaps the entire community telling the kid in both subtle and direct ways that he will never make a man of himself has left the child believing he cannot achieve greatness. And perhaps after many years of these influences, now a mature adult, our example now has no formal education, no path to self-improvement, and a true disability; he is unable to advance himself substantially. Even if he completes his GED and maybe grabs a college degree, he is already an older man before he can begin to make anything of himself. Only in his children can he hope to promote a better life.

He will never have that life himself. It is always at best a generation away, and at the worst it is a vicious cycle that keeps his family drifting further and further from the affluence of the rich.

I am not necessarily advocating further social programs, but the mentality that the poor are poor only because of their actions is an absurd one. The negative view of the impoverished is a sour aftertaste of the American experience.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

goMac: What you said is a blatant piece of racist crap. You're telling us, basically, that black people are not capable of creating their own futures and controlling their own destinies. That is one of the most racist things I've ever heard. You're saying that blacks are "controlled" by whites and my black friend who is here visiting for lunch (we're having coconut shrimp ) is telling me, point blank, that you "are full of crap and do not understand the black person or culture at all if you think that blacks are still controlled by whites and that you should understand blacks have more pride than to be 'controlled' by anyone."

Blacks are not "controlled" by anyone, goMac. This is America: Some people, regardless of skin color or the beauty or lack thereof of their faces, regardless of their gender, will have to work harder than others to succeed or to do the "right" things, but they still do them and they are still successful.

Hey, if you read what I was saying, maybe you'd understand better. I'm not saying all blacks are controlled by whites. I just said it's a class issue. And, if you and your black friend are having coconut shrimp, that says quite a bit about which class you're in.

If you were advertising for a babysitter, and you had two equally qualified people as far as care goes, but one was a lower class badly dressed middle aged black woman with no college education, and the other was a well dressed young white woman with a college degree, which would you choose? Honestly, most people would choose the young white woman. You now have the black woman down a job, and there is another job for the white woman. The black woman goes on to have a tiny income, can't afford to educate her kids, and the cycle continues.

You're wonderful little American dream speech is eloquent, but laughable. America denies opportunities based on education. Plain and simple as that. Give me one job that doesn't require any sort of education. I bet you'll come up with McDonalds worker, janitor, or other things of the sort. These are all low paying jobs that will provide no chance for education of that persons children. Read some sociology essays on this sometimes. In these families lacking education, they don't even know much about education themselves because no one sees these people as active in the educational system. Therefore the ones that do get ahead are traditionally not given good options for schooling and waste their talent. You have a very very small minority who do break through the system. Those that don't are stereotyped right into the same low paying jobs.

Simple break down:
You need an education to get ahead in life.
You need money to get an education.
To get money you need to get ahead in life.
To get ahead in life you need an education.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

For Pete's sake, if one is poor, it is far more difficult in the United States to become wealthy than if one already has wealth. The United States caters to the wealthy and ignores the poor. I dare not say that the United States actively seeks out to - generally speaking, of course - run the blacks into the ground by keeping them uneducated. No, but I do think that the United States likes to keep its foot grinding in to the back of the head of the poor.

"But they should work harder! Why aren't the poor attending school? Why are they always ****ing and having babies? They should know better!" I always hear from the typical, staunch Republican. And it makes me sick.

Try to be poor some day. Try to have an abusive parent. Try to live in an environment that promotes the continuation of poverty on every level in the form of temptation and disability.

The slums are littered with drugs, and the temptation from peer pressure et al to conform and use drugs as well is substantial. The conditions of the slum are atrocious, and living day after day in hell would give me a damned good reason to find refuge in the satisfaction of getting high. North Dakota, not known for its slums at all, is the capitol of meth and alcohol abuse, largely because the state is so stricken with depression that the mood-altering effects of drugs are the only reasonable option for many.

Many find themselves incapable of advancing to the next level. Perhaps an abusive father instilled incredibly low self-esteem, perhaps violence in the schools kept the student from keeping his grades higher, perhaps the entire community telling the kid in both subtle and direct ways that he will never make a man of himself has left the child believing he cannot achieve greatness. And perhaps after many years of these influences, now a mature adult, our example now has no formal education, no path to self-improvement, and a true disability; he is unable to advance himself substantially. Even if he completes his GED and maybe grabs a college degree, he is already an older man before he can begin to make anything of himself. Only in his children can he hope to promote a better life.

He will never have that life himself. It is always at best a generation away, and at the worst it is a vicious cycle that keeps his family drifting further and further from the affluence of the rich.

I am not necessarily advocating further social programs, but the mentality that the poor are poor only because of their actions is an absurd one. The negative view of the impoverished is a sour aftertaste of the American experience.

Post of the day.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by goMac

Simple break down:
You need an education to get ahead in life.
You need money to get an education.
To get money you need to get ahead in life.
To get ahead in life you need an education.

I joined the USAF.
No money necessary.
I was picked for OCS, and flight training.
No money necessary.

After leaving my comission I revieved vocational rehabilitation(money for a new career- CS major)

Your cycle is flawed.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I joined the USAF.
No money necessary.
I was picked for OCS, and flight training.
No money necessary.

After leaving my comission I revieved vocational rehabilitation(money for a new career- CS major)

Your cycle is flawed.

No no. It isn't flawed. You just pointed out the next way the government uses the lower class. Gold star for you!

The government knows the lower class is great for military recruitment. They're poor, have no place to go, and need money. Therefore the government has no interest in helping the lower class gain wealth. It is in the government's interests to keep the lower class down so that they have recruits for the military. This is very similar to how the government has no interest is rehabilitating criminals so they can sell their labor (try talking to someone who went to prison who tried to get an education sometime).

By spending your time in the military you lost a lot of time to join the labor force. In essence, you moved yourself out of the labor force.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What this has done is to illustrate that we have domestic terrorists living amongst us: Americans.

You really, really, have no idea what it's like to be poor, do you?

Who was left in NO? Those with no money, or no ability to leave. There were also a number of people who were just plain stupid, and an even smaller group that probably stayed JUST to take advantage of what they thought might be total anarchy. There are nutjobs in EVERY town in America.

People bringing race into it just makes me sick.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by goMac

No no. It isn't flawed. You just pointed out the next way the government uses the lower class. Gold star for you!

The government knows the lower class is great for military recruitment. They're poor, have no place to go, and need money. Therefore the government has no interest in helping the lower class gain wealth. It is in the government's interests to keep the lower class down so that they have recruits for the military. This is very similar to how the government has no interest is rehabilitating criminals so they can sell their labor (try talking to someone who went to prison who tried to get an education sometime).

By spending your time in the military you lost a lot of time to join the labor force. In essence, you moved yourself out of the labor force.

It's not the governments job to help anyone gain wealth. The government does provide the opportunity. It's called school.
A highschool education is availiable to everyone. Even illegal immegrants.
it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to make the best of their opportunity and not piss it away.
There are grants and academic/sports scholorships available.

That is plain paranoid conspriecy(sp) thinking that the government willfully produces a poor class just for soilders.

When I worked as a programmer I worked with former inmates of the US penal system(one was a countefiter and the other was convicted of kidnapping). Guess where they got their training. That's right, in prison.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It's not the governments job to help anyone gain wealth. The government does provide the opportunity. It's called school.
A highschool education is availiable to everyone. Even illegal immegrants.
it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to make the best of their opportunity and not piss it away.
There are grants and academic/sports scholorships available.

That is plain paranoid conspriecy(sp) thinking that the government willfully produces a poor class just for soilders.

When I worked as a programmer I worked with former inmates of the US penal system(one was a countefiter and the other was convicted of kidnapping). Guess where they got their training. That's right, in prison.

I never said the government was helping anyone gain wealth. In fact my argument is that they aren't.

In order to get opportunity you need education. Opportunity comes to a quick end when you're killed in Iraq, or kept over there for a long long time.