[iDriveX]

I'm sure this will turn into a but I still wanted to voice my opinion on the topic. I don't usually start threads that have meaning to them, but I'm kinda sick of all this God nonsense.

First off, my beliefs. I used to be Catholic, about four years ago, I actually started listening at church (and btw, if you want to continue to be religious I suggest you just zone out during sermons). I have read the Bible. The main point I got from the Bible was this: Love, unconditionally. End of story. All of the commandments can pretty much be boiled down to this: Don't do things you know are bad, and love those around you.

But soon I saw my religious leaders condemning those political leaders around them that supported a woman's right to choose, condemning homosexuality, and condemning the teachings of sex education and birth control in the schools. I'm going to leave a woman's right to choose alone, I support it, but I don't have any religious reasons why it should or should not be allowed. But homosexuality always boils back to this for me: Adam was created in God's image. Assuming that Adam is a representation for all men (contexualism) or that Adam is truely the father of all men (literalism), it means that all of us were either created in God's graces or we are the spawn of one who was created in God's graces. If someone was born with a scientifically proven trait of homosexuality (an assumption that you believe it has been proven that homosexuals have a predisposition to homosexuality in their brain through the differences of chemical balances). If you can agree that all of this is true, then how could God frown on something that was created in his own graces? To me it just boiled down to a message of non-love and that went against the teachings for me.

So I stopped being Catholic, but retained the title of "Non-Denominational Christian". I stopped attending masses, and I didn't go to services anywhere, because either the people at other "Christian" churches had the same messages OR they were all a little nuts.

But lately, I'm starting to doubt this whole Christian thing all together. I read two articles today, one by a "Christian Leader" (and yes we have to call him a leader with the massive amount of people that listen to his every word) and another from a Christian Organization. Here's the first:

Article re: Pat Robertson

Some Highlights:

In 1981, Robertson called the U.S. Constitution "a marvelous document for
the self-government by the Christian people." In 1983, the one-time
presidential candidate claimed his prayers were responsible for diverting
the course of Hurricane Gloria, then made similar claims about Hurricane
Felix in 1995 and Hurricane Isabel in 2003.
1991: Robertson said the Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other
mainline churches had "the spirit of the Antichrist." Later that year, the
right Reverend Robertson said Planned Parenthood taught kids bestiality and
homosexuality.
1992: He called for the protection of the white minority in South Africa,
saying, "I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not
be wise." Later in '92, Robertson said the feminist agenda encouraged women
"to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy
capitalism, and become lesbians."
1993: He claimed that the American Left's persecution of Christians was
worse than the Nazi's treatment of the Jews.
1997: Robertson said the National Organization of Women, an equal rights
group, insisted that all women become lesbians. In 2001, he said the 9/11
attacks were God's punishment for the USA's embrace of "pagans,
abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU, and the People for the
American Way."

The second article about a Christian Organization

Some Highlights:

On Aug. 31, even as the relief effort to save thousands was barely underway,
Repent America sent out a press release which said, in so many words, the
New Orleans tragedy was caused by the city's embrace of sin.

"Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a
wicked city," said Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. "From
'Girls Gone Wild' to 'Southern Decadence,' New Orleans was a city that had
its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin."

The group complained that Southern Decadence and other festivals, such as
Mardi Gras, encouraged "drunken homosexuals [to engage] in sex acts in the
public streets and bars."


So here's my beef: The New Christian God.

Dear Christian Leaders and Christian Hate Organizations:

Where is your God now? I don't think he was too smart. In New Orleans you have one of the highest concentrates of practicing Catholics in the country? But your Holy Storm missed its target. Your holy storm came about a week too early! Had you waited an extra week you would have been able to kill a ton of gays! But instead you spared them and killed a ton of your followers. Your holy storm drown hundreds of elderly people in their attics, it starved countless innocent children and animals in the street. And the people it allowed to survive were sniper shooters that took aim at hospital trying to evacute themselves, it caused atleast two police officers to take their own lives amid the chaos, and all the Gays got away scot-free! I'll be honest with you. I would say a prayer to your God next time to launch a devastating earthquake on the populations of Gay San Francisco or Provincetown near Boston, that way you can take out as many gays as you can in one fell swoop. But I'm sure there was some sort of "Master Plan", next time make sure your God fills you in on this before you look like idiots and publish this hate message.

Thanks for MacNN for giving me the freedom to rant against some real terrorist organizations.

[Kevin]

[ghporter]

The best thing to happen to any of us would be having Pat Robertson dry up and blow away. His definition of "Christian" seems to differ enormously from the most normally accepted definition, and he seems to have only a passing knowledge of Christ's teachings. And asside from being a pompous bloviator who spews hatred and intollerance, and bilking the easily led into giving him tons of money (where does all that money go...?), he's an immoral and unlikeable dolt. I've just spent far too much time just describing him-he sure ain't worth it.

[iDriveX]

But that's just it.

"seems to differ enormously from the most normally accepted definition [of Christianity]"

If this were true, he wouldn't be a very influencial power broker and be able to be a multi-millionaire. He has millions of "Christian" followers who hang on his every word. The man could declare a Christian Jihad and his followers would listen. Those are a majority of the Christians in this country!

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

I am trying to picture a world with equal rights and tolerance and I can't see it being worse then what it is now.

[turtle777]

IBCR.

-t

[ThinkInsane]

Would it kill anyone to make the slightest bit of effort to post things in the correct forum? From now on, I'm just locking them and calling it a day.

[iDriveX]

Hey Turtle, it says "Political / War" Forum, this is the longue. So I figured here is a fine place to put it.

Has the lounge turned into a place where only senseless topics are allowed to be posted and anything that makes you think has to be put into the "Political / War" forum?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by iDriveX

Hey Turtle, it says "Political / War" Forum, this is the longue. So I figured here is a fine place to put it.

Has the lounge turned into a place where only senseless topics are allowed to be posted and anything that makes you think has to be put into the "Political / War" forum?

As long as people can't/refuse to discuss serious topics like adults and not petulant children, that's exactly what it means. Your thread definitely meets the criteria for a pol/war forum thread, so that's where it goes. End of story.

[ghporter]

Oops. Mea culpa. I should have moved this thread when I saw it and posted in it later. But Pat Robertson gets me mad just because he exists, so I wasn't thinking clearly. Sorry.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I knew we kept you around here for a reason.

[BasketofPuppies]

Once again, Pat Robertson has been irrelevant for years. His Christian Coalition has not had major influence since the late 1990's and what little respect the man had left was lost in 2001 when he agreed with Jerry Falwell's comments on Robertson's own The 700 Club that 9/11 was the fault of people with views that differed from their own ("pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU, and the People for the American Way").

We only hear about him now on slow news days when U.S. political reporters have nothing real to cover. That should tell you something.

Pat Roberson is just another con-man using religion as a front to sucker money out of the naive and desperate. Do not confuse his views with those of Christians as a whole, including conservative fundamentalist Christians.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by iDriveX

I'm sure this will turn into a but I still wanted to voice my opinion on the topic. I don't usually start threads that have meaning to them, but I'm kinda sick of all this God nonsense.

First off, my beliefs. I used to be Catholic, about four years ago, I actually started listening at church (and btw, if you want to continue to be religious I suggest you just zone out during sermons). I have read the Bible. The main point I got from the Bible was this: Love, unconditionally. End of story. All of the commandments can pretty much be boiled down to this: Don't do things you know are bad, and love those around you.
...

I'm always astonished how easily christians tend to lose their faith in God because of the thinking of other christians. Faith in God and the judgment day and afterlife should be unconditionally and not depend on the actions, sayings or thinking of other people, even if they are church leaders. Otherwise it would just be a cover-up for a need for community, feel-good-spirituality...

I have read the Bible, too, eventhough or rather because I'm a muslim, and what it says is that to love God and to love the neighbouring people like yourself is the way that will enable you to receive guidance from God so that you commit much less sins than before, and so that you gain a bigger resistance against the temptations of the devil, and even if you sin, you are then more likely to feel remorse and repent and ask God for forgivance, who will grant it under the condition that you don't repeat that special sin you repented.

What is a sin? A sin is not a sin in and out of itself, a sin means disobedience regarding God and one of his orders. For example Adam and Eve sinned when they ate an apple from a tree that God prohibitted them to eat from and the devil sinned because he refused to bow down to Adam despite God's direct order to do so. So sinning means to do something against the known orders of God. Another example for a sin is the disobedience of God's order not to kill an innocent human, which is then known as murder, while the killing of combattants during a war or because of selfdefense or because of law in the form of death-punishment is not a sin.

To love God, means to trust God in everything, to acknowledge that He is the one who created you from scratch. People usually love their mothers, which is ok, but they don't love God, eventhough He deserves to be loved much more because He creates the babies in the womb of the mothers, and He is the one who created the mother, and who delivers the food, who inspires the love between the family-members...

But that's just one half of the medal, to love God, the other side is to fear God at the same time, because He is the one who will bring judgment day upon the world and who will reward or punish eternally.

Love and fear towards God at the same time will enable you to respect the orders He set up, to avoid sinning, to receive guidance and to resist the temptations of the devil.

So, even if God created human beings that are attracted towards the same sex, which is still not as clear as I would like it to be, then to follow that attraction and to engage in same-sex-activity means to sin, just like fornication between unmarried men and women is sinning, and since marriage is an institution for uniting a man and a woman for the purpose of founding a family and raising children anything other is a test, just like the sexual attraction of children is for some people or the sexual attraction of animals is for some other people, and the sexual attraction between some brothers and sisters is, or between an unmarried man and a married woman...

Because of the orders of God it is a sin to follow those attractions, and to disobey God's orders means to disobey God, and to disobey God means to not love/fear/believe Him anymore and that's what the devil did and what he tries to seduce all humans to do, too.

Similar things can be said about emancipation, feminism... According to God's scriptures, both men and women have the same worth, and have the same opportunity to gain the reward in paradise and have equally the free will... but still God decided that a married woman should submit to her husband, and that the husband should love, respect and protect his wife. The goal is according to God's scriptures to turn the married couple into a sort of unity, and that is only possible if the ultimate and last decision in a matter lays in one hand. God chose that the man should have the last decision in a matter that is being discussed between him and his wife, at least as long as that decision doesn't break any laws and orders of God. One can philosophise why the wife shouldn't have the last decision, is it because she is created slightly different, slightly physically weaker and her mind is created by God to excel in communication, emotion.., while the man's mind comparatively lacks in those departments, while excelling in rationality, or is it because of other aspects. Who knows? Only God knows really.

Regardless of the reasons, that is the order for the married couple, for the wife to love and submit to her husband and for the husband to love and protect his wife. To disregard that order means to not trust in God, not to love/fear Him and therefore to sin against yourself.

To a certain point emancipation can be a good thing because some people and societies have deprived women in general from their God-given worth, which is equal to man's worth and have developed sinful practices like forced marriages or female circumscision or the abuse, raping and beating of wifes. But as sinful as these women-abusive practices are, as sinful is the feministic ideology that calls wifes to ignore God's order to form a unity with the husband by submitting to him and instead to gain the power to have the last decision in matters themselves and by this to destroy the unity.

Off course for people that don't believe in God anyway, it isn't necessary to love/fear God, for them afterlife is only a good joke, this life is not a test instead all there is, so they have no reason to follow His orders since they don't believe in any reward or punishment in the afterlife. For those to fulfill the own desires is the goal of the day, so that homosexual activity as well as premarriage-sex and adultery is en vogue and cherished in media, which impressable children are soaking in like the mothermilk.

Taliesin

P.S.: Pat Robertson seems to be like a populist who is in religion for the money, a hypocrite to say the least.

[iDriveX]

qu[ote] even if God created human beings that are attracted towards the same sex, which is still not as clear as I would like it to be, then to follow that attraction and to engage in same-sex-activity means to sin, just like fornication between unmarried men and women is sinning, and since marriage is an institution for uniting a man and a woman for the purpose of founding a family and raising children anything other is a test, just like the sexual attraction of children is for some people or the sexual attraction of animals is for some other people, and the sexual attraction between some brothers and sisters is, or between an unmarried man and a married woman... [/quote]

I'm going to have to call ******** on this one. Your post is an old world approach at thinking. What you are telling me is that God creates homosexual men and women and puts them down on this earth with the inability to procreate naturally (for them getting aroused with the opposite sex is about as interesting for us as getting aroused with the same sex, ie Not gonna happen), the inability to enjoy their spouse, and for some, the inability to be the "man" in the relationship due to the different chemical balances created in the brain by your God. If this is true, God is a sick being. Why would one creator that loves us all equally, test some unequally? Doesn't God speak to always be equally yolked? Unequally Yolking his own people would go against his own word.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies

Once again, Pat Robertson has been irrelevant for years. His Christian Coalition has not had major influence since the late 1990's

Incorrect. They turned out in droves in the last election and were the primary difference in the outcome. I know people who voted who have never voted before. Why? Because the church and religious groups were lighting up the phones day and night to get people to the polls. Robertson, Falwell, Roberts, etc. did more campaigning in this last election than ever before, and subsequently caught the Left off guard. The key here is the discrepency in the polls. Why? Because many of these voters were people who have never been called by Gallup, and weren't expected.

Why, you may ask, would they do this? Because they knew SCOTUS seats would be at stake in this term, they knew of 2, but it could potentially be 3. THAT made this election the most important in the last 20 years. I still can't believe the Dems never aniticipated this, they're slipping, badly.

[italiano]

has not one of you heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? It was destroyed because of rampant HOMOSEXUALITY... read your bible - the town wanted Lot to send out the 2 Angels so they could "Know them well"... Rat Bastards wanted to screw 2 male Angels. Sounds like another city just destroyed 'eh?

[BasketofPuppies]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Incorrect. They turned out in droves in the last election and were the primary difference in the outcome. I know people who voted who have never voted before. Why? Because the church and religious groups were lighting up the phones day and night to get people to the polls. Robertson, Falwell, Roberts, etc. did more campaigning in this last election than ever before, and subsequently caught the Left off guard. The key here is the discrepency in the polls. Why? Because many of these voters were people who have never been called by Gallup, and weren't expected.

Pat Robertson takes credit for things he doesn't deserve all the time. This is no different. He says a lot, but without the strong organization he once had, it doesn't matter.

Karl Rove was able to mobilize the real fundamentalist Christians--you know, the humble ones who tend to stay out of mainstream American society, including politics--and get them to do something they normally wouldn't do: vote. That's what made the difference in the last Presidential election.

And Falwell? He's a loudmouth who hasn't mattered for even longer than Robertson. He's only now attempting to put back together his long dead Moral Majority organization.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by iDriveX

I'm going to have to call ******** on this one. Your post is an old world approach at thinking. What you are telling me is that God creates homosexual men and women and puts them down on this earth with the inability to procreate naturally (for them getting aroused with the opposite sex is about as interesting for us as getting aroused with the same sex, ie Not gonna happen), the inability to enjoy their spouse, and for some, the inability to be the "man" in the relationship due to the different chemical balances created in the brain by your God. If this is true, God is a sick being. Why would one creator that loves us all equally, test some unequally? Doesn't God speak to always be equally yolked? Unequally Yolking his own people would go against his own word.

I know that my arguments are made with a back-to-the-roots-approach or if you like it better with an out-of-fashion-approach, but I have big enough reasons to use that approach and that is a firm belief in God and the love/fear for/of Him.

But regarding your argument that it is unfair or even sick of God to create human beings with a sexual desire they are not allowed to follow without sinning, I can say that no two humans are created equally. A lot of humans are born with something that drives them to sin, some feel that they are attracted to the same sex, others feel that they have to murder, some feel that they have to steal, gamble, to feel attracted to children or having to have sex with everyone of the opposite sex, or feel so depressed as to commit suicide, some are notoriously angry... and a lot of other areas where people feel to be forced to sin, but that's the test, for everyone something different.

Some of these obsessions can be reduced through praying to God, truthful repenting and asking Him for help and forgivance, others may be lifelong obsessions that have to be endured.

But regardless of what, for someone who truly believes in God, judgment-day and afterlife, ie. that this life is just a short test, while the real (eternal) life is after the judgment day, it's possible to pass the test, if God wills.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by italiano

has not one of you heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? It was destroyed because of rampant HOMOSEXUALITY... read your bible - the town wanted Lot to send out the 2 Angels so they could "Know them well"... Rat Bastards wanted to screw 2 male Angels. Sounds like another city just destroyed 'eh?

The story of Lot in the Quran goes like this:

011.077
YUSUFALI: When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: "This is a distressful day."
PICKTHAL: And when Our messengers came unto Lot, he was distressed and knew not how to protect them. He said: This is a distressful day.
SHAKIR: And when Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved for them, and he lacked strength to protect them, and said: This is a hard day.

011.078
YUSUFALI: And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you! Now fear God, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"
PICKTHAL: And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of God, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?
SHAKIR: And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said: O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) God and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man?

011.079
YUSUFALI: They said: "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!"
PICKTHAL: They said: Well thou knowest that we have no right to thy daughters, and well thou knowest what we want.
SHAKIR: They said: Certainly you know that we have no claim on your daughters, and most surely you know what we desire.

011.080
YUSUFALI: He said: "Would that I had power to suppress you or that I could betake myself to some powerful support."
PICKTHAL: He said: Would that I had strength to resist you or had some strong support (among you)!
SHAKIR: He said: Ah! that I had power to suppress you, rather I shall have recourse to a strong support.

011.081
YUSUFALI: (The Messengers) said: "O Lut! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife: To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?"
PICKTHAL: (The messengers) said: O Lot! Lo! we are messengers of thy Lord; they shall not reach thee. So travel with thy people in a part of the night, and let not one of you turn round - (all) save thy wife. Lo! that which smiteth them will smite her (also). Lo! their tryst is (for) the morning. Is not the morning nigh?
SHAKIR: They said: O Lut! we are the messengers of your Lord; they shall by no means reach you; so remove your followers in a part of the night-- and let none of you turn back-- except your wife, for surely whatsoever befalls them shall befall her; surely their appointed time is the morning; is not the morning nigh?

011.082
YUSUFALI: When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,-
PICKTHAL: So when Our commandment came to pass We overthrew (that township) and rained upon it stones of clay, one after another,
SHAKIR: So when Our decree came to pass, We turned them upside down and rained down upon them stones, of what had been decreed, one after another.

Taliesin

[Ozmodiar]

You think your God creates people with the sole intention that they'll later commit suicide?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

You think your God creates people with the sole intention that they'll later commit suicide?

No, but some people are so depressed that they might think on their own about commiting suicide.

Taliesin

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by italiano

has not one of you heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? It was destroyed because of rampant HOMOSEXUALITY... read your bible - the town wanted Lot to send out the 2 Angels so they could "Know them well"... Rat Bastards wanted to screw 2 male Angels. Sounds like another city just destroyed 'eh?

If they were gay, why did Lot offer them his daughter instead?

Also, no where does it state that Lot or anyone else knew they were Angles. Give it a read sometime.

Whats more screwed up, a bunch of people wanting to 'know' some strangers, or a father offering his daughter up in defense of some dudes he just met?

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

If they were gay, why did Lot offer them his daughter instead?

Also, no where does it state that Lot or anyone else knew they were Angles. Give it a read sometime.

Whats more screwed up, a bunch of people wanting to 'know' some strangers, or a father offering his daughter up in defense of some dudes he just met?

It's part of that culture, you take care of your guests at the expense of everything else.

[iDriveX]

Obviously you have never been sick or hallucinated. I have had the unfortunate experience of having a 106 degree fever. My body was malfunctioning plain and simple. At that point, prayer doesn't enter your mind because you go into a panic or "try to stay alive" mode. You see things, you say things, you do things that you wouldn't normally do because your brain is releasing chemicals to survive, to reduce the swelling from the fever, these chemicals do not belong their on a daily basis and they force you into doing "strange" things.

These same brain chemicals are ones that make people attracted to the same sex, they make people depressed and want to commit suicide, they also make people think they have to murder. They make people think they have to kill their babies or have sex with animals. These chemicals are overridding forces in nature. Your God put them there. There is no free will involved with what involuntary responses your body does. Most people cannot, and do not, want to control involuntary responses. So this God of yours has created, in his children, disfunction. He has said to them: "I am going to make you want to kill yourself, but don't because it will make me angry", "I will make you want to have sex with other men, but don't, only have sex with women. I know it will disgust you and I know it will be hard for you, but it will make me happy", "I will make you want to commit mass murder, but don't because I will send you to hell".

I don't buy it. When I had a pet, I didn't teach it to pee on the rug inside and then expect it to pee outside. I gave it every opportunity to learn how to pee outside and praised it for peeing outside. An owner or creator who creates someone with inherent flaws that will result in their ultimate damnation is a sick sick SOB.