[besson3c]

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline


Wondering what those of you who have done more research and reading than me find wrong with this timeline?

[spacefreak]

It's quite selective in how it portrays the events. Other events, facts, jurisdictions, roles of agencies, etc. have also been conveniently omitted.

New Orleans spared direct hit

At the Superdome, home to 9,000 storm refugees, wind peeled pieces of metal from the golden roof, leaving two holes that let water drip in. People inside were moved out of the way.

Others stayed and watched as sheets of metal flapped and rumbled loudly. From the floor, looking up more than 19 stories, it appeared to be openings of about six feet long. Outside, one of the 10-foot, concrete clock pylons set up around the Superdome blew over.

"The Superdome is not in any dangerous situation," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said.

USA Today

Big Easy rests easier

In New Orleans, there was significant damage but also sighs of relief that the city had escaped the utter devastation predicted if the levee system had failed and unleashed catastrophic flooding.

"It's not life-threatening," said Josephine Elow, 73, as she tried to hold together a set of broken doors at the hotel Le Richelieu. "God's got our back."

Washington Post - Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005

New Orleans, with its combination of high population density and low-lying terrain, figured to be devastated by Katrina, and some experts predicted the storm could become one of the worst catastrophes in U.S. history.

But the city managed to avoid the worst of the worst. The Mississippi River did not breach New Orleans's famed levees to any serious degree, at least in part because Katrina veered 15 miles eastward of its predicted track just before landfall.

[ThinkInsane]

Well, that timeline certain comes to us bias free. No agenda there, none at all.

Here's the thing; the government ****ed up, from the bottom to the top. Now all sides are looking to shift the blame off of themselves and onto someone else. Heaven forbid a politician steps up and says "I have failed the people I was supposed to protect, and I beg forgiveness for that". Instead, you've got the local and state politicians blaming the feds, the feds blaming the state and local, and when it comes right down to it, everyone one of them failed and people paid dearly, far to many with their very lives.

Stop looking to blame one person, stop looking to blame one party, and for the sake of whatever you hold dear, stop using this tragedy to play politics, because that's not going to fix the problem. This is the time to learn from our mistakes to make sure something like this never happens again, not score points for political gain. It's disgusting, and it certainly doesn't make anything better. Unless of course these people think that divisiveness is some how conducive to preventing future governmental failures that result in a massive loss of life.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Well, that timeline certain comes to us bias free. No agenda there, none at all.

Here's the thing; the government ****ed up, from the bottom to the top. Now all sides are looking to shift the blame off of themselves and onto someone else. Heaven forbid a politician steps up and says "I have failed the people I was supposed to protect, and I beg forgiveness for that". Instead, you've got the local and state politicians blaming the feds, the feds blaming the state and local, and when it comes right down to it, everyone one of them failed and people paid dearly, far to many with their very lives.

Stop looking to blame one person, stop looking to blame one party, and for the sake of whatever you hold dear, stop using this tragedy to play politics, because that's not going to fix the problem. This is the time to learn from our mistakes to make sure something like this never happens again, not score points for political gain. It's disgusting, and it certainly doesn't make anything better. Unless of course these people think that divisiveness is some how conducive to preventing future governmental failures that result in a massive loss of life.

Yes, yes, yes, yes!! I completely agree...


I was wondering how slanted that timeline might be, or whether it is indisputable. I had no assumptions initially that it was TEH WORD!

[spacefreak]

The non-mention of the facts that Bush called Blanco on August 27th and begged her to change her voluntary evacuation to mandatory, and that Bush and National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield pleaded with Nagin before the hurricane to "get people out of New Orleans" is also conveniently excluded.

Bush to Blanco
"Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."

And to Mayor Nagin
"President Bush joined the chorus of officials who urged New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order a mandatory evacuation, issued Sunday morning after lower-lying areas outside the city were cleared Saturday. "

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

The non-mention of the facts that Bush called Blanco on August 27th and begged her to change her voluntary evacuation to mandatory, and that Bush and National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield pleaded with Nagin before the hurricane to "get people out of New Orleans" is also conveniently excluded.

What doesn't make sense to me is why the key players in the federal government would be on vacation if they knew this sort of thing was on the horizon?

I'm not trying to contradict my support for what ThinkInsane said by pointing fingers at one particular person/group while giving the others a free pass, but it would be nice to understand what actually happened here (I know I'll probably never find a satisfactory answer to this).

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What doesn't make sense to me is why the key players in the federal government would be on vacation if they knew this sort of thing was on the horizon?

I'm not trying to contradict my support for what ThinkInsane said by pointing fingers at one particular person/group while giving the others a free pass, but it would be nice to understand what actually happened here (I know I'll probably never find a satisfactory answer to this).

Would you expect them all to cut short vacations every single time something might happen? In hindsight yeah, there are a lot of things that should have happened differently but I don't think anyone really thought it would actually be this bad until it was too late, even though we knew it might be.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c

(I know I'll probably never find a satisfactory answer to this).

I think there will be satisfactory answers, it's just that so many will NOT be satisfied with them.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What doesn't make sense to me is why the key players in the federal government would be on vacation if they knew this sort of thing was on the horizon?

When I'm on vacation, you won't find me placing repeated, personal calls to the Governor and Mayor, pleading that they order a mandatory evecuation, and I sure as heck wouldn't hold daily intelligence meetings.

[Rolling Bones]

This has nothing to do with the time-line but has to do with accuracy.

This taken from a Dateline report.

Contrary to popular belief non of the levee (dykes) were breached. What was breached were the water-walls. Concrete walls along the river.

As for time-lines, if you watched the TV at all, during this time you know something was screwy.

Wait for the investigation to start. No one will be able to hide.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Would you expect them all to cut short vacations every single time something might happen? In hindsight yeah, there are a lot of things that should have happened differently but I don't think anyone really thought it would actually be this bad until it was too late, even though we knew it might be.

THe same goes for all those who are complaining that FEMA or Bush weren't ready.

All it takes is one reasonable and intelligent look at the entire operational scope and what's involved now (money, equipment, personnel, etc.) to understand that we as a nation can't have such an effort on standby everytime a storm develops.

People have been predicting a massive earthquake along the St. Andreas fault for decades. Are we supposed to somehow pull out of our asses a duplicate copy of our massive relief effort on the Gulf Coast and have it stationed by the fault line for months/years/decades/centuries until the earthquake hits?

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

When I'm on vacation, you won't find me placing repeated, personal calls to the Governor and Mayor, pleading that they order a mandatory evecuation, and I sure as heck wouldn't hold daily intelligence meetings.

That's because you are a nobody.

No offense. I'm one too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Would you expect them all to cut short vacations every single time something MIGHT happen? In hindsight yeah, there are a lot of things that should have happened differently but I don't think anyone really thought it would actually be this bad, even though we knew it might be.

I know that I wasn't paying close attention or thinking that a hurricane would be this big a deal, but plenty of weather-type people were predicting a hurricane of this approximate magnitude, so somebody should have listened to somebody who could translate what a "Category 5" hurricane might mean in plain-English. I've seen video footage of people warning about the hurricane at least a week before it hit, so it wasn't *completely* a surprise. Certainly government officials (all of them) should have gotten some opinions on what a Cat 5 hurricane might do to the area if they were really this unaware.

In addition to governments not taking the forecastng as seriously as they should have, I think that my confessing to not thinking much of the hurricane is probably also pretty typical among Joe-average person, inc. the type of people that were told to evacuate New Orleans.

We are so innundated with things to be scared of: terrorists, weather, drugs, black people, etc. We hear so much of this, that the "boy-that-cried-wolf" effect seems to cause us to be numb to serious warnings like Katrina.


We need to have two types of warnings:

- high alert for pussies
- high alert for everybody

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

When I'm on vacation, you won't find me placing repeated, personal calls to the Governor and Mayor, pleading that they order a mandatory evecuation, and I sure as heck wouldn't hold daily intelligence meetings.

Right, but why didn't somebody call Bush and company while on his vacation to notify him of this?

(In other words, why didn't the reverse of what you are saying happen?)

[art_director]

This is on BoingBoing right now:


Here's a rough partial transcript of an IM chat with Jacob Appelbaum throughout the day today. He's inside the Houston Astrodome, and has been talking to Katrina evacuees and tech aid volunteers who are there to set up computer banks and a low power FM station (see bottom of post -- FEMA's blocking that, despite FCC having granted the LPFM organizers a temporary license exemption). Times shown are LA local.
Image: a snapshot from Jacob's mobile phone.

10:23: Joel just got removed. Almost arrested. Fox News is down on the floor. I'm in dome, hiding in seats. They're allowing some media on the floor, not others.
10:31 Just met members of the Polish press, they are being stopped from entering floor. Says this is like the former USSR.

10:57 Raw transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee Clara Barthelemy: "The 17th street levee was bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers to save the more valuable real estate in the city… to keep the French Quarter protected, the ninth ward was sacrificed… people are afraid to speak out… everyone who was near there heard the bombings… they bombed seven times. That's why they didn't fix the levees… 20 feet of water. Gators. People dying in water. They let the parishes go, not the city center. Tourist trap was saved over human life. A six year old girl was raped in here.. 9 year old boy killed. A man in the shower beaten. No hot food. No help for elderly."

Another evacuee: "Over 20 rapes per night happening inside this place. They bring in national guard for media purposes. Bush wants us to stay here to raise his ratings. Some workers are stealing the good stuff, like shoes."

11:16: Rough transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee, male: "We are treated like prisoners here. Placed under mandatory curfew. We are citizens!"

11:22 Now I'm speaking to someone else, another woman, who says some people report having witnessed "bomb sounds," believe 17th street levee and others were blown up to manage water flow and protect more valuable portions of real estate.

Evacuee Dianne Stafford: "They blew the levee to save the city…" Saying a barge broke the levee. She is from St. Bernard Parish. "More expensive places were saved at the expense of the neighborhoods that aren't as valuable… Rebuilding Bourbon Street matters more to the government… that's what mattered to Governor Blanco…"

11:36 I'm speaking to a man who's been wearing the exact same pair of 2XL stretch pants since the storm hit. Some clothing is available for evacuees, but he is a large man and can't find anything available to fit his body. He's a diabetic but has good medical care. This so depressing. Its so hard to not cry when you hear this ****. The very large and very old have little help.

11:59 CNN have no problem getting in. Nobody's stopping them from accessing the floor, but other credentialed press who already have press badges are being stopped.

12:09 Evacuees I'm talking to are all telling me about rapes, murders, beatings which are taking place inside the Astrodome.

12:24 Man I'm speaking to, Danny Smith, says he cannot get housing because he has a felony. Aid workers found him a house but he is a felon, so they turned him away. FEMA has agreed to pay for his apartment, but he cannot get one. "Everyone has a felony here," he says. He thinks that people are going to riot

12:29 Evacuee Irvin Skinner: We have a curfew. We're being kept inside after 11pm. Forced to stay inside. They threw guns on everyone. Said 'come inside or your out of here'. Shoved guns, pointed them at adults. I'm a grown man, I have rights. This is an instituion to us, it's like a jail. I'm a middle class man with a home being trated like a criminal because I'm black. If we were white, we wouldn't have this problem."

"We are not here by choice."

13:03 Harris County will not allow any radio station inside without a FEMA form even if operator has FCC permission. Austin Airwaves says trying to get form now, been waiting 2.5 days. No radio station inside the dome until that form is filled out.

[Rolling Bones]

Are these people under some kind of house arrest? Why the curfew?

[art_director]

If true it raises some questions.

[spauldingg]

We (America) need an "open source" timeline, where everyone can add facts/delete falsehoods, similar to wikipedia.

I could design something functional, but can't code it. (php/sql wise, I can html it, though.)

Anyone?

[Millennium]

Good grief; now they're saying people bombed the levees? That's ridiculous.

Look, people; there is no Grand Conspiracy here. They claim thousands of people heard the "bombings". To them, I ask; did anyone see an explosion, or any kind of fire, over by the levees? Did anyone see or smell any smoke? No? Then I'll tell you what they heard: the sound of a massive slab of concrete several feet thick breaking. This is a very noisy thing, and easy to mistake for a bomb, until other things that tend to accompany bombings (things like smoke, fire, and -I don't know- explosions) never materialize. There's only noise, and just about anything which could possibly cause the levees to fail catastrophically (i.e. actually breaking) would generate this sort of noise.

As for the French Quarter and why it wasn't harmed? This too, is easily explainable: as the oldest part of the city, it was built on the safest ground. Whether it was actually built with the intention of being on the safest ground, or if that ground has simply proved the safest as the rest of the city has had to rebuild itself piecemeal over the years, we may never know. But those buildings have stood for hundreds of years, and Katrina is not the first hurricane to hit that region even if it may have been the worst in recent memory. The French Quarter has stood for all that time, since well before it was a tourist attraction, when everything else in the city has probably been ruined and rebuilt at least once (even if it didn't all happen at the same time). If something is protecting it from the storms, it's not any government. Perhaps we should study the land it's built on; is there some particular feature which allows it to resist these kinds of storms? If so, then what?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Are these people under some kind of house arrest? Why the curfew?

It's called martial law. It always happens in disaster areas like this, because it's the only way to get the area secured and cleared out enough for rescuers to do their work in a timely manner. I daresay the past week has shown us what happens when it's not put into place.

[art_director]

Maybe Cuba bombed the levees.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's called martial law. It always happens in disaster areas like this, because it's the only way to get the area secured and cleared out enough for rescuers to do their work in a timely manner. I daresay the past week has shown us what happens when it's not put into place.

The interviews referenced above were conducted at the Astrodome, which the last time I checked, was in Houston, TX, not in the areas hit by the hurricane. IOW, the refugees are saying these things – you know, rape and such.

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/astrod.htm


Would have to agree with your comments regarding levees being bombed.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director

Here's a rough partial transcript of an IM chat with Jacob Appelbaum...

Why only "rough" and "partial"?

Maybe Jacob should help out there like he's supposed to be doing instead of spending his time running around to every evacuee who has a conspiracy theory and racing their rants to the internet.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director

The interviews referenced above were conducted at the Astrodome, which the last time I checked, was in Houston, TX, not in the areas hit by the hurricane. IOW, the refugees are saying these things – you know, rape and such.

The Astrodome is serving as a shelter, not a round-the-clock hotel and lounge with unimpeded 24-hour access.

As for the rapes, 20-a-day is 20-a-day too many, but I really find it hard to believe this... especially when the other top complaints regard law enforcement officers with "guns" all over the place. Add in the constant flow of media cameras around, and I'm sure some distrught woman/girl would have run up to an officer or camera and fingered her perpetrator.

As for the man who says "We are not here by chocie", jacob should tell him that he's more than wlecome to pack his stuff and leave. If the man wants free room and board, he's got to honor the curfew.

Good job derailing the thread to now focus on US neglect at the Astrodome. Maybe you and others can turn this into Abu Ghraib.

[spacefreak]

It looks like attacks on the state of Texas are back in play now that the Democrats have failed to pin the Katrina disaster on Bush.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

The Astrodome is serving as a shelter, not a round-the-clock hotel and lounge with unimpeded 24-hour access.

As for the rapes, 20-a-day is 20-a-day too many, but I really find it hard to believe this... especially when the other top complaints regard law enforcement officers with "guns" all over the place. Add in the constant flow of media cameras around, and I'm sure some distrught woman/girl would have run up to an officer or camera and fingered her perpetrator.

As for the man who says "We are not here by chocie", jacob should tell him that he's more than wlecome to pack his stuff and leave. If the man wants free room and board, he's got to honor the curfew.

Good job derailing the thread to now focus on US neglect at the Astrodome. Maybe you and others can turn this into Abu Ghraib.

Just submitting something I ran across for discussion.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Add in the constant flow of media cameras around, and I'm sure some distrught woman/girl would have run up to an officer or camera and fingered her perpetrator.

As for the man who says "We are not here by chocie", jacob should tell him that he's more than wlecome to pack his stuff and leave. If the man wants free room and board, he's got to honor the curfew.

Good job derailing the thread to now focus on US neglect at the Astrodome. Maybe you and others can turn this into Abu Ghraib.

Thank you, judge and jury.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director

Just submitting something I ran across for discussion.

And I think it's a great discussion/flamefest topic... don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure it belonged in the "Katrina timeline" thread.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

And I think it's a great discussion/flamefest topic... don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure it belonged in the "Katrina timeline" thread.

Then don't read it.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director

Thank you, judge and jury.

How can you not agree that a curfew at the Astrodome only makes sense? When we see police reports of these rapes, then we can discuss those.

But by all means, keep up the Texas bashing. It will backfire as much as the "Katrina is all Bush's fault" bash did.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director

Then don't read it.

How can I not? It takes up so much damn space in the thread. A link and excerpt would have been sufficient.

Besides, I had so much fun watching your Bush-bashing arguments go down in flames in all the other threads.

[ThinkInsane]

Enough. Discuss the topic at hand and take your squabble to PM.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

We (America) need an "open source" timeline, where everyone can add facts/delete falsehoods, similar to wikipedia.

I could design something functional, but can't code it. (php/sql wise, I can html it, though.)

Anyone?

Download and install Mediawiki, the Wiki used to drive the Wikipedia. Wouldn't take you very long, it's pretty easy to install.

[spauldingg]

Cool. I'll check it out. thanks.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by art_director

If true it raises some questions.

OMG! You're kidding, right? They bombed New Orleans. Get the tinfoil hats.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

But by all means, keep up the Texas bashing. It will backfire as much as the "Katrina is all Bush's fault" bash did.

You keep repeating "The Bush's Fault" thing backfiring. It Did? News to me. And I think you're not sure yourself because you keep repeating it. Repeat something often enough and you'll believe it seems to be true.

This thread has run it's course I think.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

You keep repeating "The Bush's Fault" thing backfiring. It Did?

It seems to have.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by finboy

OMG! You're kidding, right? They bombed New Orleans. Get the tinfoil hats.

Probably natural gas explosion or that barge hitting the bridge. That could make some loud booming sounds.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by smacintush

It seems to have.

I thought polls meant nothing to Republicans. As for this poll it's to soon to tell.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

I thought polls meant nothing to Republicans. As for this poll it's to soon to tell.

I believe you are mistaken. The GOP have been known to criticize those who use polls to help them determine how to govern.

[Gee-Man]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

I thought polls meant nothing to Republicans. As for this poll it's to soon to tell.

First law of politics - a poll is only useful if it validates something you already believe in. If, however, a poll runs counter to your point of view, you are free to dismiss all polls in general as invalid. And don't forget, when you disparage polls in general, make sure to accompany your sweeping dismissal with an old cliché like "(type of poll) polls are notoriously inaccurate", or "there are 3 kinds of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics."

This of course applies to all politicians, not just Republicans.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by art_director

Maybe Cuba bombed the levees.

Will the US accept offers of Cuban assistance?

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by smacintush

I believe you are mistaken. The GOP have been known to criticize those who use polls to help them determine how to govern.

OK then...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4229238.stm

Powell criticises storm response

Katrina's dead are now coming to light across New Orleans
Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he fails to understand why better preparations were not made before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Two-thirds of Americans think President George W Bush could have done more to tackle the floods and damage in the south, one opinion poll suggests.



>tapping fingers waiting for spin<

[Rolling Bones]

Timeline cont...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4231170.stm

US emergency aid chief sidelined

Michael Brown had been visiting the Katrina disaster zone
The top US emergencies official has been removed from his role managing the Katrina relief effort, agencies report, quoting unnamed US officials.
Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was being sent back to Washington from Louisiana where he had been overseeing aid work.

Mr Brown has faced strong criticism over the pace of the rescue effort.

Allegations that Mr Brown was not properly qualified for his post recently surfaced in the US media.

More details follow shortly.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Will the US accept offers of Cuban assistance?

How about the Iranian?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Download and install Mediawiki, the Wiki used to drive the Wikipedia. Wouldn't take you very long, it's pretty easy to install.

I don't know if I'd call it "pretty easy to install"; last time I tried it was somewhere between "installing a Python extension without the OSX .pkg" and "recompiling Firefox without using a config file downloaded from the Internet" in terms of difficulty: not easy, but I've done worse.

Then again, that was a while ago. Has the process improved?

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

OK then...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4229238.stm

Powell criticises storm response

Katrina's dead are now coming to light across New Orleans
Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he fails to understand why better preparations were not made before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Two-thirds of Americans think President George W Bush could have done more to tackle the floods and damage in the south, one opinion poll suggests.



>tapping fingers waiting for spin<

I wasn't polled for my opinion.
So who exactly are "Americans polled"?
No facts here, just OP-ED.
FUD.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I wasn't polled for my opinion.
So who exactly are "Americans polled"?
No facts here, just OP-ED.
FUD.

You were out doing your Sky Captain thing.

[Mark Larr]

While you do nothing but whine uselessly on an internet board.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

OK then...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4229238.stm

Powell criticises storm response

Katrina's dead are now coming to light across New Orleans
Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he fails to understand why better preparations were not made before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Two-thirds of Americans think President George W Bush could have done more to tackle the floods and damage in the south, one opinion poll suggests.



>tapping fingers waiting for spin<

OK, I'll bite.

I don't like the way they worded the poll. I personally believe that Bush did what a President is expected to do, but I could easily have answered this poll that he could have done more. Of course he could have, but that doesn't mean he did a BAD job and the results of this poll based on its wording doesn't mean that the majority of those polled think he did a BAD job. Why didn't they just ask for more definite opinions on how Bush did?

Plus, they deliberately manipulated the racial demographic with this poll. That makes it suspect to me as well.

How's that? "spinny" enough for you?