[spauldingg]

How the heck did this happen

Now minorities, elderly, and the poor have to shell out at least twenty bucks to vote in Georgia. WTF?

from civilrights.org

Because current data shows that Blacks are five times less likely than whites to have access to a vehicle, and thus have no need for a drivers' license, opponents of the bill insist that the elimination of the use of non-photo identification at the polls will affect a disproportionate number of minorities.

In addition, although there are 159 counties in Georgia, there are only 56 places where residents can obtain a drivers' license, none of which are in Atlanta or the six counties with the highest percentage of Blacks.

I don't care if your Bill Gates, no one should have to pay to vote. Ever.

[Millennium]

I'm not sure I get where the payment part comes in. Nevertheless, you're right; even at best, this is a good idea which is very badly implemented.

Certainly it should never be possible to tie votes to voters, but we do need to get a handle on voter fraud, and that is going to require some sort of identification scheme for letting people into the polling place. However, it looks like Georgia is by no means ready to implement such a scheme, because they don't have a means to adequately make sure that all eligible voters have the identification that such a system needs.

Perhaps in a few years, when they've got such an ID system in place, then they might be ready to require ID at polling places. Right now, however, they clearly are not. Though come to think of it, why the heck don't they have a DMV in their own capital city, of all places?!

[SimeyTheLimey]

From the article:

Georgians who haven't previously had a valid driver's license or state identification card can obtain a free ID card if they sign a form saying they can't afford the $20 fee.

In any case, I find it a little hard to believe that there are many people who have no government ID of any kind. It's very hard to transact any business in this country without some form of photo ID. Just today I was asked for my drivers license to deposit a check. Cashing a check requires ID. So does paying for anything by check. People on welfare receive checks, so presumably they have to cash them someplace.

There is also a federal food stamp identification card. It's pretty likely that someone so poor would qualify for food stamps. That would be a government issued ID, and presumably acceptable for voter ID purposes.

[cpt kangarooski]

That's still not quite appropriate, however. The ID cards should be free to any voter, regardless of whether they can pay the fee or not. The 24th Amendment doesn't care whether you can afford poll taxes or not, whether implemented in a clever manner or not.

[spauldingg]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

From the article:



In any case, I find it a little hard to believe that there are many people who have no government ID of any kind. It's very hard to transact any business in this country without some form of photo ID. Just today I was asked for my drivers license to deposit a check. Cashing a check requires ID. So does paying for anything by check. People on welfare receive checks, so presumably they have to cash them someplace.
.

I worked in restaurant within walking distance from home, never had a car until I was twenty eight. I got tips in cash, and my boss cashed my paycheck for me. I went half my adult life without any official photo ID, and would have resented my government, (state and local) to insist I shell out my hard earned money just in order to vote in a "free country."

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

That's still not quite appropriate, however. The ID cards should be free to any voter, regardless of whether they can pay the fee or not. The 24th Amendment doesn't care whether you can afford poll taxes or not, whether implemented in a clever manner or not.

It's not a poll tax just because you call it one. Voting has minor indirect costs associated with it, but those costs aren't a poll tax, which is a direct quid pro quo tax directly linked to the right to vote. Using your logic, the 24th Amendment would require the government to provide free transportation to the polls, subsidize any lost wages caused by taking time off work to vote, and so on. You could even argue that the government should be required to pay for suitable clothing to wear to the polling place. After all, you will be turned away if you show up nude, but clothes cost money.

It also can't be a poll tax if there is an express mechanism provided to get the ID for nothing for that tiny minority of people who don't already have a photo ID.

In any case, what also would be the point of providing a free ID when most people already have ID? How many millions will that cost the state of Georgia? Which other government programs would you like to cut to pay for that unnecessary expense?

The law is a sensible one, with an appropriate mechanism to ensure that any Georgian who can't afford to pay can get the ID for free. Creating a separate and duplicate ID just because you have an ideological bee in your bonnet is dumb. It's a waste of money.

[spauldingg]

Applicants for a free identification card are reminded of the following:

REQUIREMENTS

Proof of identity (if never previously licensed or issued a Georgia identification card), such as a certified copy of the customer’s birth certificate or a military ID card. A complete list of acceptable documents can be found here. The DDS cannot accept photocopies or faxes, so customers are reminded to bring their original documents with raised seal or certification seals.
Proof of residency, such as a utility bill or bank statement. A complete list of acceptable documents can be found here.
Proof of citizenship, which for most customers is satisfied using a birth certificate issued by a U.S. state or territory, or immigration documentation.
Completion of an Affidavit of Eligibility containing the following:
I am indigent and cannot pay the fee for an identification card;
I desire an identification card in order to vote in a primary or election in Georgia;
I do not have any other form of identification that is acceptable under O.C.G.A. §21-2-417 for identification at the polls in order to vote;
I am registered to vote in Georgia or I am applying to register to vote as part of my application for an identification card; and
I do not have a valid driver's license issued by the State of Georgia.

All poor people know what O.C.G.A. 21-2-4147 is.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

Applicants for a free identification card are reminded of the following:

REQUIREMENTS

Proof of identity (if never previously licensed or issued a Georgia identification card), such as a certified copy of the customer’s birth certificate or a military ID card. A complete list of acceptable documents can be found here. The DDS cannot accept photocopies or faxes, so customers are reminded to bring their original documents with raised seal or certification seals.
Proof of residency, such as a utility bill or bank statement. A complete list of acceptable documents can be found here.
Proof of citizenship, which for most customers is satisfied using a birth certificate issued by a U.S. state or territory, or immigration documentation.
Completion of an Affidavit of Eligibility containing the following:
I am indigent and cannot pay the fee for an identification card;
I desire an identification card in order to vote in a primary or election in Georgia;
I do not have any other form of identification that is acceptable under O.C.G.A. §21-2-417 for identification at the polls in order to vote;
I am registered to vote in Georgia or I am applying to register to vote as part of my application for an identification card; and
I do not have a valid driver's license issued by the State of Georgia.

All poor people know what O.C.G.A. 21-2-4147 is.

From your original article:

Georgians who haven't previously had a valid driver's license or state identification card can obtain a free ID card if they sign a form saying they can't afford the $20 fee.

So there is a form. No doubt it has all the boilerplate necessary to satisfy the statute on it.

[spauldingg]

What if I can afford the 20 bucks, but don't want to pay it? Does that make me, an american citizen, ineligible to vote? (Yes, it does. But Should it?)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

What if I can afford the 20 bucks, but don't want to pay it? Does that make me, an american citizen, ineligible to vote? (Yes, it does. But Should it?)

What if you want to vote but don't want to pay the bus fare to the polling place? It's the same issue.

In any case, I just checked. You can vote without ID. All that will happen is that you will be given a provisional ballot. Then you will make the voting officials go to a lot of extra trouble and expense to verify your identity. If your idea of being a good citizen includes driving up the cost of elections and delaying the results, then that is up to you. But apparently, the Georgia legislature made allowances for the chronically cheap.

[spauldingg]

"Chronically Cheap" I love the way you word things. (No, really I do.)

But the govt doesn't insist I take the bus to a polling place. It does insist I have a photo id. Or jump through hoops, or make the voter volunteers to jump through hoops with the provisional ballot. If you need a birth certificate to get the id, why not just accept a birth certificate to vote?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

"Chronically Cheap" I love the way you word things. (No, really I do.)

But the govt doesn't insist I take the bus to a polling place. It does insist I have a photo id. Or jump through hoops, or make the voter volunteers to jump through hoops with the provisional ballot. If you need a birth certificate to get the id, why not just accept a birth certificate to vote?

Because a birth certificate doesn't have a picture on it. Anyone can walk in with one. The problem is we don't want just anyone voting using that name. We'd like it to be the actual voter. So they want you to prove that you really are that person, and a government ID with a picture on it is the simplest way. That's why drivers licenses as well as other government ID (e.g. military ID cards, federal employee ID, or state or local government ID) have pictures on them. It's common sense. You look at the card, look at the picture, look at the face. If the name, the face, and the picture all match, then it is the right person and it is very unlikely not to be the right person. It's also convenient because the vast majority of voters have these cards already. And those who don't can get on -- for nothing if they can't afford to pay. Or to be more accurate, if they just say that they can't afford to pay. I doubt very much that anyone would actually check to see if you are telling the truth.

On the documents needed to get a driver's license, just a birth certificate alone isn't enough in Georgia. You need both proof of citizenship and proof of residency. The idea is to make it harder to obtain a driver's license. That actually has nothing to do with voting. The reason states have started tightening up on licensing is because Virginia issued drivers licenses to some of the September 11 hijackers. The rules in Georgia sound identical to the one since adopted here in Virginia. You can get on a plane with a drivers license, so they are tightening up.

Back to viting, you could actually vote by showing some other form of government ID with a picture that doesn't require the same documentation. Only those other forms are also pretty hard to get illegally. So it serves the same purpose.

And so, of course, does it when the registrar of voters verifies that you are who you say you are if you didn't bring ID and have to cast a provisional ballot. That's another good (if time-consuming and expensive) way to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to vote. But only using their own ballot, and only once.

I take it you do want to prevent voter fraud, right? I ask because Democrats in the last few years seem to get hysterical whenever something is done to make it harder to steal elections. It's a bit of a consistent pattern.

[cpt kangarooski]

Preventing voter fraud is fine. Ensuring that everyone who is entitled to vote can is fine. Having an election that doesn't cost a lot is fine.

But this is one of those times when you only get to pick two. And one of those two is a lot less important than the others. Also, the two important ones are best accomplished when voting procedures are simple, and obvious. There's always the chance of people not getting to vote due to convoluted requirements whether by accident or design.

[spauldingg]

nicely stated.

And no one ever, ever, in these united states should even have to consider paying money to vote. Ever.

[Athens]

BIG Fing deal! Blacks and old people can still get ID for $20.00 http://www.dds.ga.gov/drivers/DLdata...0603&ty=dl this is such a non-issue. I cant believe the race card is being used on this. It would only be racist if blacks where not allowed to get ID

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

Preventing voter fraud is fine. Ensuring that everyone who is entitled to vote can is fine. Having an election that doesn't cost a lot is fine.

But this is one of those times when you only get to pick two. And one of those two is a lot less important than the others. Also, the two important ones are best accomplished when voting procedures are simple, and obvious. There's always the chance of people not getting to vote due to convoluted requirements whether by accident or design.

Preventing voter fraud isn't just "fine" it's critical. There is no point in holding an election and ensuring that every vote counts if the integrity of the process is compromised by fraud. The election becomes a sham, and the legitimate voices of legitimate voters are lost.

It is sad that we have come to the point in our democracy where we think that the most elementary voting procedures (such as the very basic one of establishing that the voter is who he says he is) is considered by some to be an obstacle to voting. In places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and El Salvador people voted literally under threat of death. Here, apparently, if the process is any harder than ordering a hamburger it supposedly is too difficult to manage. It's a very sad, pessimistic view held by some.

In any case, the constitutional arguments raised in this thread are bogus. This does not violate the 24th Amendment. This is not a poll tax. This does not exclude the poor. Nobody has to pay to get ID if they can't afford one. Nobody actually has to show ID to get their votes counted. The race card also doesn't work here. Washingon v. Davis was decided a long time ago. Disproportionate impact (even if statistically valid) is not enough to make a statute unconstitutional. The only possible hurdle is the voting rights act, and this doesn't violate it.

Athens is right. This is a total non-issue.

[cpt kangarooski]

SimeyTheLimey--

Preventing voter fraud isn't just "fine" it's critical. There is no point in holding an election and ensuring that every vote counts if the integrity of the process is compromised by fraud. The election becomes a sham, and the legitimate voices of legitimate voters are lost.

I agree. However, your concern that the government would be wasting money by providing sufficient ID for free is far from critical.

This is particularly so as there would be no waste of money to speak of; most people in practice wouldn't bother to get voting IDs if they can already use drivers licenses or whatnot. Nevertheless, voting should not require a fee.

In any case, the constitutional arguments raised in this thread are bogus. This does not violate the 24th Amendment. This is not a poll tax. This does not exclude the poor. Nobody has to pay to get ID if they can't afford one.

Untrue, according to the article from the OP: "Georgians who haven't previously had a valid driver's license or state identification card can obtain a free ID card if they sign a form saying they can't afford the $20 fee." This would appear to exclude Georgians who can't afford the fee, but who have previously had sufficient ID.

Of course, my objection is still that it shouldn't matter whether you can afford one or not. Poll taxes are still poll taxes whether they're affordable or not.

Nobody actually has to show ID to get their votes counted. The race card also doesn't work here. Washingon v. Davis was decided a long time ago. Disproportionate impact (even if statistically valid) is not enough to make a statute unconstitutional. The only possible hurdle is the voting rights act, and this doesn't violate it.

The case you ought to be looking at is Harman. People didn't _have_ to pay a poll tax there either, but they would then have to file appropriate paperwork. It's a hurdle to voting, and such hurdles can be manipulated so as to cause disenfranchisement and voting fraud. Plus, even 'mild' substitutes for the poll tax are unconstitutional given a facial reading of the 24th A.

Remember: "Thus, like the Fifteenth Amendment, the Twenty-fourth "nullifies sophisticated as well as simple-minded modes" of impairing the right guaranteed."

It's no non-issue. It's a significant civil rights problem.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

SimeyTheLimey--


I agree. However, your concern that the government would be wasting money by providing sufficient ID for free is far from critical.

This is particularly so as there would be no waste of money to speak of; most people in practice wouldn't bother to get voting IDs if they can already use drivers licenses or whatnot. Nevertheless, voting should not require a fee.

This is frustrating because you are arguing in circles. First, you say that there should be free ID for everyone, or better yet, no picture ID at all. Then it is pointed out that most people already have satisfactory ID in the form of drivers' licenses, passports, government employment, or military ID. Those who don't have sufficient ID can obtain a non-drivers license ID which has the required photograph. Most states have such ID, and this is not an issue.

For those who can't afford an ID, the state has enacted a provision waiving the administration fee. And finally, nobody will be turned away from the polls even if they completely fail to produce ID. All that will happen is that they will fill out a provisional ballot and have that ballot counted once election officials verify the voters' identity. So most people already have ID, and those who don't can get free ID. They can get it in the form of the non-driver's license ID with a waived fee. Or if they qualify for food stamps or other welfare programs they can use the free ID they already receive to obtain those benefits.

So this really isn't a problem, and certainly doesn't require the state to provide expensive duplicate IDs for everyone. Nor does this in any way resemble a poll tax because it is not a tax and doesn't obstruct anyone from voting. It's simply a common sense mechanism to prevent voter fraud and one where the state has anticipated every reasonable objection.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

nicely stated.

And no one ever, ever, in these united states should even have to consider paying money to vote. Ever.

I agree with you. It's a good thing this Georgia law doesn't require them to.

[loki74]

Funny. Here we have these silly people saying that there is voting fraud and that is why Bush won. Right. Okay, whatever. Not true, but lets go with it. So we increase security--make it so that you need photo ID to vote. But wait!! That's descrimination! You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

SimeyTheLimey--


I agree. However, your concern that the government would be wasting money by providing sufficient ID for free is far from critical.

This is particularly so as there would be no waste of money to speak of; most people in practice wouldn't bother to get voting IDs if they can already use drivers licenses or whatnot. Nevertheless, voting should not require a fee.



Untrue, according to the article from the OP: "Georgians who haven't previously had a valid driver's license or state identification card can obtain a free ID card if they sign a form saying they can't afford the $20 fee." This would appear to exclude Georgians who can't afford the fee, but who have previously had sufficient ID.

Of course, my objection is still that it shouldn't matter whether you can afford one or not. Poll taxes are still poll taxes whether they're affordable or not.



The case you ought to be looking at is Harman. People didn't _have_ to pay a poll tax there either, but they would then have to file appropriate paperwork. It's a hurdle to voting, and such hurdles can be manipulated so as to cause disenfranchisement and voting fraud. Plus, even 'mild' substitutes for the poll tax are unconstitutional given a facial reading of the 24th A.

Remember: "Thus, like the Fifteenth Amendment, the Twenty-fourth "nullifies sophisticated as well as simple-minded modes" of impairing the right guaranteed."

It's no non-issue. It's a significant civil rights problem.

Maybe taxi's and buses should be made avalible for them too (Free) because god only knows that having to pay bus fare to go vote is just another poll tax.

[cmeisenzahl]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

How the heck did this happen

Now minorities, elderly, and the poor have to shell out at least twenty bucks to vote in Georgia. WTF?

from civilrights.org


I don't care if your Bill Gates, no one should have to pay to vote. Ever.

http://amateureconblog.blogspot.com/...ork-times.html

You can make the same argument that not allowing people to vote in their home is a "poll tax". People must incur a cost for transportation (e.g. time, fuel, bus fare, etc.) to get to the polls. And even worse, it hits rural people disproportionately hard!

[spauldingg]

http://www.johnconyers.com/

Has an update on the Baker/Carter proposal.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

http://www.johnconyers.com/

Has an update on the Baker/Carter proposal.

you linked an anti-republican action center? Photo ID's disenfranchise votes now? EEsh, i wonder what they consider the exclusion of the military ballot. Voting machine and lines that cost Kerry the election in Ohio?!? Spare me. They'd better get on the Democrat officials who ran those elections in the questionable precincts mentioned.

I'm all for Congress paying for the National photo ID. In exchange I think all voters should be given a short exam first. They need to be able to locate the US on a world map. They need to be able to tell you who the President is currently (and not just that the President is a Republican), and they need to be able to spell "America". If they can do none of the above, they should not be allowed to vote. For those that were given a ride, they should be required to state clearly which bus dropped them off at the polls and those people should be brought up on criminal negligence.

[Macrobat]

Many municipalities, including Denver, CO, for one, have indigence laws that require a valid photo ID and that you have at least $20.00 or proof of employment on your person.

Calling this law a poll tax is seriously stretching it. As a responsible adult, every American citizen should be required to have at least one form of photo ID.

[Mark Larr]

They should free of charge implant rfid chips in poor people to make sure that they only vote once.

The dems were driving them around from polling area to pollina area voting over and over.

When they have no ID, they can just vote repeatedly, that's why the dems want to keep them dirt poor and the beneveloant Republican saints want them to become successful to stop this fraud on the part of the desperate democrats.

[Dakar]

Well this is degrading quickly.

[BRussell]

By chance, the commission on election reform in the US today released their recommendations (it's a big pdf file). It's not letting me quote it without a password but on IDs, they recommend using this REAL ID for voting.

I'm against these new, stricter ID requirements, and I'm confident they'd be struck down as violations of the voting rights act anyway, because it would be impossible to demonstrate that it wouldn't have an adverse impact on minorities. Here's another pdf file with a study of driver's licenses in Wisconsion. It's pretty amazing how many people, especially older people, younger people, the poor, and minorities, don't have them. As an example, over 3/4 of black men aged 18-24 don't have a driver's license. These voting laws might have fine print that allow people to get IDs or otherwise vote if they take steps X Y and Z, but the real-world effect is that less people will vote.

We know that half of eligible voters don't vote in the US: that's the problem we face now. It seems to me that our states ought to affirmatively go out and register people - yes even poor people and minorities who may be *gasp* Democrats - rather than trying to require new hoops for voting, in the guise of addressing (non-existent) problems.

[edit]Here's a link to an article about this federal commission.

The most controversial recommendation calls for all voters to produce a standard photo identification card before being allowed to vote. The commission proposes that, by 2010, voters be required to use either the Real ID card, which Congress this spring mandated as the driver's license of the future in all states. For about 12 percent of eligible voters who do not have a driver's license, the commission says states should provide at no cost an identification card that contains the same key information.

Apparently several of the liberals on the commission dissented on this issue.

[Mark Larr]

I see people daily that have multiple ssn's and birthdays.

An RFID chip in the hand would nip the fraud problem in the bud.

[spauldingg]

You go first.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

I don't care if your Bill Gates, no one should have to pay to vote. Ever.

I think the "One dollar = One Vote" policy should apply.

hmm.. wait...


WTO?

[BRussell]

Carter and Baker had an op-ed in the NY Times about their voting reform proposal.

Since we presented our work to the president and Congress, some have overlooked almost all of the report to focus on a single proposal - a requirement that voters have driver's licenses or government-issued photo ID's. Worse, they have unfairly described our recommendation.

Here's the problem we were addressing: 24 states already require that voters prove their identity at the polls - some states request driver's licenses, others accept utility bills, affidavits or other documents - and 12 others are considering it. This includes Georgia, which just started demanding that voters have a state-issued photo ID, even though obtaining one can be too costly or difficult for poor Georgians. We consider Georgia's law discriminatory.

Our concern was that the differing requirements from state-to-state could be a source of discrimination, and so we recommended a standard for the entire country, the Real ID card, the standardized driver's licenses mandated by federal law last May. With that law, a driver's license can double as a voting card. All but three of our 21 commission members accepted the proposal, in part because the choice was no longer whether to have voter ID's, but rather what kind of ID's voters should have.

Yes, we are concerned about the approximately 12 percent of citizens who lack a driver's license. So we proposed that states finally assume the responsibility to seek out citizens to both register voters and provide them with free ID's that meet federal standards. States should open new offices, use social service agencies and deploy mobile offices to register voters. By connecting ID's to registration, voting participation will be expanded.

That sounds good but I'd be concerned that the ID requirement would be very easy to enforce, while the recommendation that states actively register everyone would be very hard to enforce. It's easy to imagine a state run by people who don't want to register the poor or minorities simply saying "we did our best!"

Actually, I wonder why we'd even need to register to vote if these Real ID cards serve as identification, and we have a nationwide database. It could simply be checked when you vote, and anyone with a card could vote.