[RAzaRazor]

Kind of sick, but having been in the military, I'm not surprised.

Link

[waxcrash]

Originally Posted by RAzaRazor

Kind of sick, but having been in the military, I'm not surprised.

Link

That's just f*cked up.

[UNTeMac]

Jeez. Shows what being paid to kill people you don't necessarily know are the enemy will do to some people.

[spauldingg]

A link without the graphic images

[Hugi]

Ah yes, the brave boys, doing their work. Mom and dad must be proud.

[goMac]

The soldiers over there seem to be starting to go insane.

[mojo2]

It's lamentable, for sure. Here are some thoughts.

1) War is not a nice thing. Not even the grittiest republi-con here wants war if it can be avoided.

2) Even the survivors are victimized. What you have to do to function in that kind of reality is beyond what you and I can really understand unless we have been there, done that.

3) Sometimes life (and death) reveals things about you that were ALWAYS there but which lay unearthed until some new impetus caused it to be released. Sometimes we don't like what we discover about ourselves but, nonetheless, it's a part of learning and growing as a human being. Sometimes you "GET IT" right away. Sometimes you have to repeat the lesson many times. The pictures you see are examples of those who haven't yet learned.

4) I'm glad no one has yet gone so far as to assign (an impossible to know) guilt or innocense to the deceased. You can only trust and hope that the training these men got and the leadership in their units serve to protect them from harm as best as possible, and to inflict the necessary force upon those who are real military targets.

5) Young people have raging hormones and to make use of deceased victims who have no other remaining function on Earth, who these young people - in an act of emotional self preservation - may regard as little more than an inanimate objects, might find SOME justification in turning that 'meaningless object' into something of value, porn. (Not to say that the dignity or memory or the symbology of a deceased person is nothing, but to a young warrior, worried about HIS OWN life and death and that of his buddies, the process of making the enemy dead into 'nothings' is understandable.)

6) Think about what this writer's choices were in writing this story. When the published rumor of someone flushing a Koran causes riots and the deaths of many...when the published photos of the Abu Graib abuses led to enemy reprisals and an increased sense of determination by the enemy to kill Americans, was this writer acting out of noble journalistic instincts or was he, too, looking to take advantage of the Iraqi dead but also to (symbolically) throw the young men in the photos "under the bus?"

They took the incriminating steps themselves by being photographed in such situations and in sending the photos in to a site that would publish them. The fact that the site creators are in Europe makes me wonder if a group of anti-war computer savvy smart asses set a trap for the GI's, knowing they'd be able to discredit the US military even further and help the al Qaeda forces gain ammunition for their cause, to bring down the US and the Western world.

We can't forget that Islam's stated intent is to dominate the WORLD.

So, for this (AFAIK) American blogger/writer to publish this information may, on the surface, seem to be an example of crack journalism, it really is more than that.

As far as the dead Iraqi's are concerned, it's an example of them being used by their enemy. As far as the young GI's, it's an example of THEIR enemy, the European website possibly anti-war webmasters, using them. As far as the writer of this blog entry it's an example of HIS using ALL of them. And of his being used by the enemy of the United States, al Qaeda, to erode support for the war.

Look at how the writer tries to cover his ass under the guise of journalistic integrity. BS. He KNOWS he's using EVERYONE in this story as a Kleenex. If he was REALLY interested in stopping this sort of activity and cared about the US, he'd have approached the miltary. In this day and age, after all we've seen from damning pix like this, you bet the military would listen to him and act quickly to stop this crap.

Check this out...

That's why I'm publishing this story. I can't say for 100% that these photos really are our service members, that the pics really are of dead Iraqis and Afghanis, or that they were posted by US soldiers. But everything about this story rings true (and let's not forget the US has a history of these photo abuses of the Iraqi dead). Worse yet, even if this site is a fake, it's already flying around the Internet - and has been live for over a year. This Web site, real or fake, is going to be another public relations disaster for the US, and a bonanza recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

As for you, spauldingg, I know you aren't trying to capitalize on any of the people in this procession, dead or alive. You are just an innocent 'tool.' But that doesn't mean you are harmless in helping promote an atmosphere which encourages al Qaeda to continue fighting and killing Americans.

If the US pulls out of Iraq, how happy will you be when you read that the Iraqi Army has succumbed to the forces of al Qaeda and terrorist attacks have completely disabled the oil facilities there and the US is facing a shortage of 10 million or more barrels a day?

The price of oil goes up and now, when you order a pizza it costs $25.00 for a small cheese. Well, you'll stop ordering pizza. Then Dominoes starts to fall.

The driver can't afford to work if people stop ordering. Then the truckers and store owners go out of business. Then they cant pay their bills and they go bankrupt. Banks begin to fail. The stock market goes into a frenzy.

Just how immune are YOU to any and all of this?

Look around you right now. The ONLY thing you see that was made by man or animal without the use of petroleum is you or your pets.

Yup.

Let's pull out of Iraq. Yeah, why not surrender tomorrow morning and let's just get it over with?

von Wrangell can post the oath of allegiance papers online and those who want to begin bowing to the East can get a jump on everyone else and when al Qaeda reps come to your door you can greet them with a nice big, "As-Salaam-Alaikum!"

[Uncle Skeleton]

So the US is incapable of living within our means. Does that make it ok to just give up on all integrity and be the evil empire plundering other countries until the oil finally does run out and we're...back where we would have been anyway?

PS. Sorry for contributing to the above inappropriate thread derailment.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

So the US is incapable of living within our means. Does that make it ok to just give up on all integrity and be the evil empire plundering other countries until the oil finally does run out and we're...back where we would have been anyway?

PS. Sorry for contributing to the above inappropriate thread derailment.

What were you doing the day they discussed distribution of labor in elementary school???

Not everyone can do everything. It's more efficient to have people doing one thing they are good at and than have everyone do everything themselves.

I don't like the smell of pigs. You don't mind the smell but love the little f'ers. Whereas I love raising corn. We work out an equitable exchange and everyone is happy.

From there we move to the idea that some countries have natural resources that others don't. If you want to give your wife diamonds and you live in Hawaii you work out a deal where you can exchange pineapples to the South Africans for diamonds.

There's no such thing as living within your means for diamonds. You want them. You can pay for them. The South Africans have them. They are willing to sell them.

It's called free trade.

What is happening in the M.E. is that free trade would exist unhampered except that a third party unrelated to the SELLERS of the oil and unrelated to the BUYERS of the oil are trying to come between the seller and the buyer.

The US is protecting the seller and the seller's product and the seller's business from undue interference from that third party.

Yet, at the same time the US is protecting it's OWN right to free trade, to BUY the oil without interference from outside forces.

The US is ALSO supplying the millions of individuals and businesses the resource they have come to expect and that they need to exist.

Until Peak Oil begins to show it's effects on the US/world economy we must stay afloat so that we can afford to develop alternative energy sources to replace oil.

Ironically, once an alternative energy source IS found, the M.E. oil nations will be left alone to do whatever they want to each other and there will be no problem of the infidels being on sacred lands.

Any hope for bringing the M.E. into the 21st Century rests in what happens TODAY.

After oil becomes incidental the sands will be able to drift over the whole place without the US disturbing a grain of it.

We love the people there but we see that dealing with them is a high maintenance arrangement.

meh.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

What is happening in the M.E. is that free trade would exist unhampered except that a third party unrelated to the SELLERS of the oil and unrelated to the BUYERS of the oil are trying to come between the seller and the buyer.

That's bull. Your position as stated is that we're afraid the sellers were soon going to be unwilling to trade, so we had no choice but to conquer them.

Until Peak Oil begins to show it's effects on the US/world economy we must stay afloat so that we can afford to develop alternative energy sources to replace oil.

That's interesting, since we can afford that right now. Hydro-electric power is competitive today (it wouldn't win, but it's competitive). Rudimentary google-fu tells me 87% of my state's power is produced in this way, today (that a whole lot of percent). Other alternative energy sources are conceivable. All of them need investment in research. It's a short leap to convert electric power to the things oil is needed for (most urgently transportation), again if the research is funded. Basically, if we get shafted on oil, we won't have NO power, we'll have more expensive power, and that will surely spur interest in improving the technology. This would be the ideal solution (I'm sure you'll agree), since even if we do succeed in conquest of the ME, that goose won't lay golden eggs forever, or even until the end of W's life if your sources are to be believed. So what do we have? A problem of oil with two possible solutions. Work on alternative technologies, or abuse brown people. We've spent 200 billion dollars on the wrong one and the end of it isn't even in sight. It's about time we realize we made a mistake, take our lumps, and start working on the other option. You even argue that that option is the future. I don't see the problem with embracing the future before absolutely necessary, except that it deprives the US of its greatest thrill (blowing up brown people). Just imagine how much faster these technologies would advance if we spent half as much on them as we did on waging wars (which you purport to be for the same end)

We love the people there but we see that dealing with them is a high maintenance arrangement.

Also bull. You don't give a turd about them. I'm still waiting for an answer about you being evil. Is it because you don't think beating up other countries to take their toys is wrong, or because you know it's wrong but your greed overshadows your morals, or is it that you just have no sense of right and wrong? I'm really truly interested to hear your answer, because you seem to share this defect with a lot of people around here and I'm dying to understand it.

PS. Still sorry about the derail.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

That's bull. Your position as stated is that we're afraid the sellers were soon going to be unwilling to trade, so we had no choice but to conquer them.

Show me where you read THAT!

That's interesting, since we can afford that right now. Hydro-electric power is competitive today (it wouldn't win, but it's competitive). Rudimentary google-fu tells me 87% of my state's power is produced in this way, today (that a whole lot of percent). Other alternative energy sources are conceivable. All of them need investment in research. It's a short leap to convert electric power to the things oil is needed for (most urgently transportation), again if the research is funded. Basically, if we get shafted on oil, we won't have NO power, we'll have more expensive power, and that will surely spur interest in improving the technology. This would be the ideal solution (I'm sure you'll agree), since even if we do succeed in conquest of the ME, that goose won't lay golden eggs forever, or even until the end of W's life if your sources are to be believed. So what do we have? A problem of oil with two possible solutions. Work on alternative technologies, or abuse brown people. We've spent 200 billion dollars on the wrong one and the end of it isn't even in sight. It's about time we realize we made a mistake, take our lumps, and start working on the other option. You even argue that that option is the future. I don't see the problem with embracing the future before absolutely necessary, except that it deprives the US of its greatest thrill (blowing up brown people).

Like Saddam and OBL have been said to have had NO point of agreements allowing their joining forces (I disagree and have posts evidence that this isn't the case) one would think you and I can't agree on this point because it's obvious you have come lately to think at all seriously about the subject of energy whether it be fossil or alternative, as a reason for war or why no one should be surprised oil is a reason for oil.

By the way ask yourself this: "If it takes TWO to tango and if WE are fighting to protect the oil supply, why does al Qaeda fight for the oil? Why don't they just let us have the oil? They ride horses and camels and live in caves. Why are THEY so doggedly trying to gain control of OR DESTROY the oil supplies???

Anyway, all or most of the rivers that can be dammed have been. You new energy students all and always think the alternative energy sources are oh, just around the cornner and none of you are too worried about the energy situation. The more I encounter you guys the less angry I become. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to how much we depend on oil, dude! Nor do you know how small a disruption of our oil supply it would take to kill America. Look around your room where you are now sitting and know this...the ONLY thing you see that wasn't made from petroleum is YOU or your kitty cat.

Here's the energy 101 text I use. www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.com Read it. Know it. Use it.

But, strangely, I am ALMOST at the point where I can agree with you that we should pour $200 - $300 Billion into alternatives. (NOT to shift this $$ from Iraq, but to find the $$ somewhere else) We might microwave solar energy from the moon to earth and reduce our electrical needs provided by petroleum. Only until that energy is beaming down to Earth and supplying a city's worth of electricity will I be ok with our abandoning our protection of oil supplies/flow.

The reason I'm only ALMOST there is that I want more scientific and business verification, using brains and bucks sharper than mine to say, ok boys...pour it on! When I hear/see that, then I'm there as well.

If we left Iraq tomorrow and the Iraqi Army was defeated by the al Qaeda forces and they blew up a harbor full of tankers (whether full or empty) or blew up ALL the pipelines or just turned off the spigots OR if they pulled off an embargo like OPEC did in 1973, then we are fecked!!!

A month from then WWIII would begin, if not sooner. We can't exist without oil. YOU DO NOT YET UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WOULD GET IF YOU GOT YOUR WISH!

Also bull. You don't give a turd about them.

I must admit I cared a HELL of a lot more about them in 2003 than I did in 2004 and I cared more in 2004 than I do today.

I'm still waiting for an answer about you being evil. Is it because you don't think beating up other countries to take their toys is wrong, or because you know it's wrong but your greed overshadows your morals, or is it that you just have no sense of right and wrong? I'm really truly interested to hear your answer, because you seem to share this defect with a lot of people around here and I'm dying to understand it. PS. Still sorry about the derail.

Google this:

United States v. Holmes

Then, maybe you'll understand better.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mojo2

5) Young people have raging hormones and to make use of deceased victims who have no other remaining function on Earth, who these young people - in an act of emotional self preservation - may regard as little more than an inanimate objects, might find SOME justification in turning that 'meaningless object' into something of value, porn. (Not to say that the dignity or memory or the symbology of a deceased person is nothing, but to a young warrior, worried about HIS OWN life and death and that of his buddies, the process of making the enemy dead into 'nothings' is understandable.)

If someone posted pictures of your mother online showing he blown off leg and making fun of her genitals that were showing would you still be as understanding?

[Uncle Skeleton]

I'll get back to you tomorrow but in the mean time

Originally Posted by mojo2

Google this:

United States v. Holmes

Then, maybe you'll understand better.

I found many and I'm not reading them all just so you can be cute. Please specify.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by goMac

If someone posted pictures of your mother online showing her blown off leg and making fun of her genitals that were showing would you still be as understanding?

Maybe not.

Part of me would want to kill anyone and everyone even REMOTELY responsible and they would forever be my hated enemy and I would teach my CHILDREN about the outrage and they would make THEIR existence center around this injustice. And even though my own children might die trying to avenge this terrible tragedy it would be worth it and I would teach my children to teach THEIR children to die to pay back the bastards responsible for my mother's pain. And when I saw my grandchildren were so dedicated to avenge my mom that they took the vengeance to the next level by strapping bombs to their belts and blowing themselves up in the midsts of the people who killed my dear sweet mom. And when I saw other people doing the same thing as my grandchildren I would take pride and feel happy and justified that I had taught them well and raised my family to live and die for the cause of vengeance. I guess I showed THEM, those bastards who killed my mom!

I showed them who was the real winner!

No one is going to victimize MY family and get away with it!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

I'll get back to you tomorrow but in the mean time



I found many and I'm not reading them all just so you can be cute. Please specify.

http://www.willamette.edu/~blong/Jur...ce/Holmes.html

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Show me where you read THAT!

Ok before I waste time reading all your old posts, why don't you specify who you mean by "the sellers."

Like Saddam and OBL have been said to have had NO point of agreements allowing their joining forces (I disagree and have posts evidence that this isn't the case) one would think you and I can't agree on this point because it's obvious you have come lately to think at all seriously about the subject of energy whether it be fossil or alternative, as a reason for war or why no one should be surprised oil is a reason for oil.

Do they speak English in what?

By the way ask yourself this: "If it takes TWO to tango and if WE are fighting to protect the oil supply, why does al Qaeda fight for the oil? Why don't they just let us have the oil? They ride horses and camels and live in caves. Why are THEY so doggedly trying to gain control of OR DESTROY the oil supplies???

Are you insane? WE invaded THEIR homeland, and won't leave. They'll fight us in any way possible, and rightly so. Even ignoring that, how does showing the monetary value of oil (which belongs to them) make it any less WRONG for us to shoot them and take it from them?

You new energy students all and always think the alternative energy sources are oh, just around the cornner and none of you are too worried about the energy situation.

If we're going to get into name calling and generalizations, you war mongers all think maintaining the unbalanced status quo is somehow going to work, and are too worried about subjugating other races to invest in the future. If we put half the energy and funding into inventing our way out of our problems that we do into bombing our way out of them, those alternative energy sources really would be oh, just around the corner.

Here's the energy 101 text I use. www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.com Read it. Know it. Use it.

Yeah you've trotted that old pony out before, and I've read it. Have you ever tried to verify that guy's opinions or do you just drink it in as fact?

But, strangely, I am ALMOST at the point where I can agree with you that we should pour $200 - $300 Billion into alternatives.

For the love of god, why not?! This crisis of yours is 100% technological. Oil powers technology (cars, electric devices), and only affects other arenas (food, materials) in as much as they are accelerated by technology. So how do you propose to solve this problem? technologically? no? WARFARE? You're frickin nuts.

Only until that energy is beaming down to Earth and supplying a city's worth of electricity will I be ok with our abandoning our protection of oil supplies/flow.

Why not? It's not like we can't just conquer another oil-rich land whenever we're feeling drained.

God damnit, now you've done it. I've never used one of those horrible ubb emoticons before. Thanks a lot.

The reason I'm only ALMOST there is that I want more scientific and business verification, using brains and bucks sharper than mine to say, ok boys...pour it on! When I hear/see that, then I'm there as well.

What do you think the money is used for? Research = scientific verification.

Google this:

United States v. Holmes

Then, maybe you'll understand better.

So your answer is the second one, greed. You know that we are murdering Iraqi's to sustain our own extravagant lifestyle, you just don't care. "Let them eat cake!"

You seem to think that without oil, or even with it but not as much, we will instantly die. In reality, it is more like if we were cut off from the oil in Iraq we would have to stop living like (post-WWII) Americans with our space programs and our skyscrapers, and we'd have to start living more like (shudder) Iraqis. I'm sorry if that prospect doesn't make me more comfortable about slaughtering innocents left and right to prevent it.

[teknopimp]

so where can i give? i'll be glad to donate some of my pron collection for those pics (uncensored please)

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Are you insane? WE invaded THEIR homeland, and won't leave. They'll fight us in any way possible, and rightly so.

Are you suggesting that their actions are justified? If anything, them attacking troops and Iraqis is the direct reason why it is taking longer to restore Iraq. I would be happy for them to leave as long they had a functional democracy in the end. What they need is a better security, and the best way to do that is to develop a police system for Iraqis to participate in. But this is being challenged by the fact that they are dying everyday in bombings from the people you seem to think are doing the "right" thing.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Do they speak English in what?

[demograph68]

As for the topic at hand, it is clearly deplorable what some of the soldiers are doing. They need to be made aware of how the things they do can make Iraqis less trusting of them.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Are you suggesting that their actions are justified?

I'm about to ask you something I have no right to expect from you, and that's a fair, honest response. Really, take a deep breath, let it out, and try to imagine what you would do in the following situation.

Saddam Hussein invades and occupies America. Do you roll over and say "fair enough," let him install his Islamic government in the image of Iraq's and start pumping American oil back to Iraq in exchange for whatever God-forsaken currency Iraq uses? Or do you round up a posse and start resisting? Would you blame other Americans for resisting?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Maybe not.

Part of me would want to kill anyone and everyone even REMOTELY responsible and they would forever be my hated enemy and I would teach my CHILDREN about the outrage and they would make THEIR existence center around this injustice. And even though my own children might die trying to avenge this terrible tragedy it would be worth it and I would teach my children to teach THEIR children to die to pay back the bastards responsible for my mother's pain. And when I saw my grandchildren were so dedicated to avenge my mom that they took the vengeance to the next level by strapping bombs to their belts and blowing themselves up in the midsts of the people who killed my dear sweet mom. And when I saw other people doing the same thing as my grandchildren I would take pride and feel happy and justified that I had taught them well and raised my family to live and die for the cause of vengeance. I guess I showed THEM, those bastards who killed my mom!

I showed them who was the real winner!

No one is going to victimize MY family and get away with it!

Please justify the above in relationship to your viewpoint is Islamic people and the invasion of Iraq.

Thank you.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Ok before I waste time reading all your old posts, why don't you specify who you mean by "the sellers."

This isn't a trick question game. Who do YOU think sells the oil? The oil is owned by the nation. S.A., Iraq, Kuwaiit...the OPEC nations (although there are non -OPEC nations that sell oil)

Are you insane? WE invaded THEIR homeland, and won't leave. They'll fight us in any way possible, and rightly so. Even ignoring that, how does showing the monetary value of oil (which belongs to them) make it any less WRONG for us to shoot them and take it from them?

Alright, I'm going to try to make this as simple as I possibly can.

You, gomac and I are on a deserted island. You know how to farm. I know how to fish and we work a deal where I give you fish for your vegetables and you give me vegetables for my fish.

You would die without my fish. I would die without your vegetables. We are happy and healthy and there is no reason for me to come to your side of the island but you can come to visit me whenever you'd like.

gomac is your buddy and lives on your side of the island and he wants to keep YOU from exchanging your vegetables for my fish. Why? Because he wants me to die. And you are not powerful enough to stop him from monkeying with the vegetables.

And though you could sell your vegetables to him instead of me, I can't go without vegetables or I will die. So I move to your side of the island so whenever he tries to monkey with the vegetables you would sell me I can prevent him from doing this.

If I don't do this I'm afraid I will die.

We are in Iraq to save our own lives.

If we're going to get into name calling and generalizations, you war mongers all think maintaining the unbalanced status quo is somehow going to work, and are too worried about subjugating other races to invest in the future. If we put half the energy and funding into inventing our way out of our problems that we do into bombing our way out of them, those alternative energy sources really would be oh, just around the corner.

If you spent some time researchingg the situation instead of feasting on a steady stream of rhetoric you'd recognize that as rich as the Saudi's are, with their billions and billions of barrels of oil and all their petro dollars, they are in the same boat as the USA, but in a different way.

They understand VERY WELL, that their oil will all be gone some day. And while YOU whip the US for being so slothful and for failing to plan and invest and this and that...where are the Arab projects to rescue ANY and ALL of the ME oil nations from riding camels in a generation or two?
Which of the illustrious and far sighted Arab universities are mounting a campaign to develop alternative energies? Then when the US HAS found the answer and you guys want some energy or you will die, why shouldn't we tell you to ask OBL for some?

Maybe he can suicide bomb himself into a new source of energy...fertilizer!

You make me laugh!

Yeah you've trotted that old pony out before, and I've read it. Have you ever tried to verify that guy's opinions or do you just drink it in as fact?

You have all the answers, smart guy. Disprove his findings. When someone does, I'll stop using that as a source.

For the love of god, why not?! This crisis of yours is 100% technological. Oil powers technology (cars, electric devices), and only affects other arenas (food, materials) in as much as they are accelerated by technology. So how do you propose to solve this problem? technologically? no? WARFARE? You're frickin nuts.

That's it. I'm tired of brow-beating people to get them to read just the kindergarten level BASICS of energy education. When you say something like THAT, I KNOW you are NOT even CLOSE to understanding what EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD SHOULD KNOW ABOUT OUR NEED FOR OIL.

No oil and YOU DON'T EAT! Everything in your miserable existence is made possible ONLY, ONLY, ONLY due to fossil fuels.

Transportation, electricity, water, clothing, food, medicine, homes, books, refrigeration, electronics, the desk you sit at the floor and carpeting, the plastics, getting the wood to the mill, working the lumber, the factories, the...oh you are so frzzng ignorant.

No more talking to you. You wouldn't even take action to save your own miserable life.

Until or UNLESS you stop trying to commit suicide, which is EXACTLY what you are doing unless you are able to live as a thrid world peasant lives or unless you are in OBL's 'crew,' youare a waste of time and if you aren't 3rd world capable or in OBL's camp then you are going to be hurtin if we run out of oil and for you to be ignorant of that makes you an IGNORANT poseur. For you to KNOWINGLY espouse such tripe as you do means you are a FOOL.

And until you learn the difference between your own ass and a hole in the ground, (which you OBVIOUSLY now do not!) we are done.











EDIT: I just read the remainder of that post of his and his final paragraph is illuminating!

Check it out!

You seem to think that without oil, or even with it but not as much, we will instantly die. In reality, it is more like if we were cut off from the oil in Iraq we would have to stop living like (post-WWII) Americans with our space programs and our skyscrapers, and we'd have to start living more like (shudder) Iraqis. I'm sorry if that prospect doesn't make me more comfortable about slaughtering innocents left and right to prevent it.

He is JUST LIKE all the others who have NO IDEA of our oil situation. Just how little it will take to bring America to a grinding halt and how quickly it would occur and the repercussions were that to occur.

NO FRIGGING IDEA! HE IS CLUELESS!

But...

He DOES say, you'll notice, that we would be living like the Iraqis.

(We'd be worse off because it would have happened so quickly and we were previously at such a different standard of living, that the fall would be terribly worse. What's more, when you look at what the Iraqis have and the way THEY live RIGHT NOW, even considering the war caused deprivations there are things THEY would no longer enjoy because when the US goes, we're dragging therest of the industrialized free world with us. We are all tied. No one can escape it.)

And THAT is the point. OBL wants us to fall. If we were to fall it might be to the level of where Iraqis currently exist or it might be lower. But THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT OBL WANTS.

THAT IS WHAT AL QAEDA IS WORKING TO ACHIEVE.

Bringing the US from being the political, intellectual, entertainment, electronic, technological, economic, military, industrial leader of the world, to being on the level of Iraq.

Uncle Skeleton's nickname says it all. He wants the US to die. He wants us to fall. From now on anything he says I will view as from someone who harbors a HOSTILE INTENT toward the USA. And it appears he LIVES here but may not have been born here, I don't know.

Uncle Skeleton, as far as I'm concerned, from now on YOU ARE TO BE CONSIDERED UNFRIENDLY TOWARD THE UNITED STATES.

Here's some porn for you:

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by goMac

Please justify the above in relationship to your viewpoint is Islamic people and the invasion of Iraq.

Thank you.

It's obvious that some of the AMERICAN posters here have a better ability to identify and empathize with the insurgent, al Qaeda, Iraqi, Muslim or Arab points of view (take your pick...all or one or a combination) than I.

So, in the interest of debate and fair play and better understanding other points of view I will, from time to time, try to imagine myself someone from the region responding as I believe someone from that region might.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

This isn't a trick question game. Who do YOU think sells the oil? The oil is owned by the nation. S.A., Iraq, Kuwaiit...the OPEC nations (although there are non -OPEC nations that sell oil)

Well whatever then. You had said the leaders of Iraq were in cahoots with Bin Laden, both of them posturing to deny oil trade with the US, and that's why we had no option to let things remain as they were, we had to invade. I'm sure you didn't mean Iraq as an entity would encourage destruction of its only natural resource by Bin Laden, so you must have meant it was (apparently) preparing an embargo of sorts. This was my interpretation of your historical account. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

...If I don't do this I'm afraid I will die.

We are in Iraq to save our own lives...

Die? Literally? Let's read on

Saudi's...where are the Arab projects to rescue ANY and ALL of the ME oil nations from riding camels in a generation or two?

I don't understand where you're going with this. Even if "what the arabs are doing" had any importance to the American way of life™, the Arab nations don't need to research this because they know we are 100 times more addicted to technology than they are, and as soon as we figure out the solution they will buy it from us (or more likely it will be an intellectual property solution that will be everywhere after a few years). You know there's no way to stop the spread of technology once the rabbit is out of the hat.

I'm not saying this is their motivation; I wouldn't presume to know or care what they're doing to prepare for the end of oil. But it's one of possibly many reasons why this line of discussion doesn't matter.

You have all the answers, smart guy. Disprove his findings. When someone does, I'll stop using that as a source.

I read your long ass website. I take it at face value, just like any other website out there. It's something to consider, not to quote as doctrine in response to other discussion.

No oil and YOU DON'T EAT! Everything in your miserable existence is made possible ONLY, ONLY, ONLY due to fossil fuels.

Something your favorite website elegantly pointed out is that in today's world, energy is equivalent to oil, since oil makes up such an overwhelming percentage of the source of today's energy. What you meant to say here is that everything in your miserable existence is made possible only due to energy, which today is synonymous with oil. It need not always be so. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Perhaps another thought exercise. Imagine the day, whenever it happens, when the oil runs out for us. It's time to sink or swim with whatever comes next. Would you rather that day be when the entire world has exhausted its supply and there really is no alternative, or would you rather the Saudis bust out with "I've got 2 more year's worth, I was holding back." It won't be cheap, but it could be a life preserver to get the next technology started (or the next after that if the first one tanks). I just don't understand why you're pushing so hard to end up in the first scenario. Maybe you can explain it to me, thanks.

Transportation, electricity, water, clothing, food, medicine, homes, books, refrigeration, electronics, the desk you sit at the floor and carpeting, the plastics, getting the wood to the mill, working the lumber, the factories, the...

Ah, so we agree? All of those depend on oil for technological improvements to the process (except for those like medicine, refrigeration, etc that are nothing more than technologies themselves). That's what I was saying remember? The problem, the void, the deficit will be one of technology, but what you seem to be fighting against is the notion of a technological solution (rather than a military one).

we would be living like the Iraqis.

Right, so you see my point? We are at 10 now, the Iraqis are at 4. The Iraqi's existence (according to you, and I'm not disputing it) necessitates us dropping to a 5 (you might say 4, but come on, they live in a desert). Therefore, the Iraqi's have to be conquered, dropping them to a 2 (except for the thousands that die, which are at 0). All so we can stay at 10. How is that us "fighting for our lives?" I will be willing to listen to your idea of what the numbers are if you don't agree with mine, before casting judgement on your sickening greed.

From now on anything he says I will view as from someone who harbors a HOSTILE INTENT toward the USA. And it appears he LIVES here but may not have been born here, I don't know.

You seem to be off the deep end, but I'd like to pull you back for just a moment if I may. Technology. I said it above and I'd like you to consider it for just a moment please. Why fight a technological problem with a military answer?

For the record I was born in Salt Lake City, I'm an upper middle class white male, the very kind of person who would benefit (materialistically, not spiritually of course) from Xtian america conquering the world, and I believe in America as it was founded, a refuge for the victims of persecution and injustice, not the source of it.

[spacefreak]

I couldn't care less. With all the photos of dead and decapitated coalition soldiers and contractors all over the place, we may as well start displaying our results.

To all the al Queda-ites out there: If you screw with us, you will end up in photos just like this.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

I'm about to ask you something I have no right to expect from you, and that's a fair, honest response. Really, take a deep breath, let it out, and try to imagine what you would do in the following situation.

Saddam Hussein invades and occupies America. Do you roll over and say "fair enough," let him install his Islamic government in the image of Iraq's and start pumping American oil back to Iraq in exchange for whatever God-forsaken currency Iraq uses? Or do you round up a posse and start resisting? Would you blame other Americans for resisting?

Saddam Hussein was a dictator so of course not. You are sympathizing with people that are killing soldiers and Iraqi civilians with ruthless intention. If the US were to exit now they'd have less hope of any reconstruction efforts. Their actions are making it much harder for progress to happen.

[himself]

Help me out here, mojo2:

On the one hand, you like to talk a lot about “peak oil” and how any disruption of our oil supply will kill America (thus plunging us into oblivion). Fine.

On the other hand, you talk a lot about how it is much more worth our while to just bogart the oil we need to survive (crackhead style), even though it may not sustain our society for much longer, meaning it will eventually run out anyway (thus plunging us into oblivion). Fine.

In the same breath, you go on about the futility of researching alternate energy sources, because that means we will be moving away from oil and without oil we die (thus plunging us into oblivion)...?

We just can't win with you, can we? Why even bother? The end result will always be oblivion according to you, anyway. Why bother researching other options that will possibly allow us to survive without oil at some point in the inevitable future, when we can put those same resources into mojo2's lost cause that is jacking the world for oil that will be depleted soon?

However, I fear that mojo2's scenario and the current war in Iraq is only a peek at our future on this planet, unless we take seriously the need to research alternative energy sources (you know, scientific research? The kind of research that makes these "pie-in-the-sky" alternatives a possibility?) Think constant wars for resources like oil, freshwater, etc.

I really don't understand your aversion to commencing this research as soon as possible, so that we can possibly begin a smooth (or smoother, compared to your outlook) transition from fossil fuels once the reserves start to run low? Is this really too complicated for you to grasp?

If you spent some time researchingg the situation instead of feasting on a steady stream of rhetoric you'd recognize that as rich as the Saudi's are, with their billions and billions of barrels of oil and all their petro dollars, they are in the same boat as the USA, but in a different way.

They understand VERY WELL, that their oil will all be gone some day. And while YOU whip the US for being so slothful and for failing to plan and invest and this and that...where are the Arab projects to rescue ANY and ALL of the ME oil nations from riding camels in a generation or two?
Which of the illustrious and far sighted Arab universities are mounting a campaign to develop alternative energies? Then when the US HAS found the answer and you guys want some energy or you will die, why shouldn't we tell you to ask OBL for some?

Why is it their responsibility to rescue everyone else? According to you, it's every man for himself, take all you can carry. If any nation fails to plan for it's future, that is their fault and theirs alone. Do you really think that because one nation may not be planning for the the future, that we all need to sit with one thumb in our mouths and the other up our ass? What logic.

Here's a scenario for you to ponder: This peak oil stuff is true, and the world's oil reserves are nigh dry. Oil is (by far) the most expensive resource on the planet, costing about $300/barrel (you can only imagine how much gasoline costs). Most of the oil refineries on the planet have shutdown, because there isn't enough oil to keep them all busy (and this is all assuming we can stay peaceful and civil in the midst of this). However, the forward-thinking, industrious citizens of {insert nation here} have been hard at work researching a number of alternatives to oil for energy, and guess what? They are extremely practical. And because {insert nation here} was so diligent, they have been using this technology, reliably, for years. Not only that... lo, behold! People, nay, entire nations will gladly pay for these technologies! Industries around the research and development and further advancement of these technologies sprout like weeds, and the world economy stabilizes. Hark! This new technology is as clean as the clear blue sky! And renewable! It seems that mankind has learned it's lesson from utilizing non-renewable, poison-proliferating energy sources... we now gaze in wonder at these curious petroleum-powered machinations at the history museums, laughing in disbelief at the folly of our self-destructive behaviour...

Well... this scenario may seem a bit idyllic, but I think it is much more practical than, and preferred over, your Mad Max-style future outlook. One of the morals of this story is that whatever nation (or group of nations) is in the forefront of this research will likely be the worlds next “superpower.” The funny thing is, while you are poo-pooing the research of alternative energy sources, this research is well underway... by our beloved oil conglomerates, no less, among many others. I have a friend who is in the process of getting a patent for a fuel cell design that appears to be very promising. Mojo2, this stuff is gonna happen with or without you, whether you like it or agree with it or not.

now, back on topic...
A lot of these soldiers are still little kids, many of whom really don't appreciate the sensitivity of the situation in Iraq. Hopefully, this situation represents the exception, not the rule. Regardless, the stress of being on the frontline can cause almost any sane man to lose it. I just hope this gets reigned in.

The gruesome photos remind me of what I've seen at rotten.com (warning: this site is extremely gruesome and graphic. don't venture there if yo have a weak stomach)

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Saddam Hussein was a dictator so of course not. You are sympathizing with people that are killing soldiers and Iraqi civilians with ruthless intention. If the US were to exit now they'd have less hope of any reconstruction efforts. Their actions are making it much harder for progress to happen.

1. Bush probably looks like dictator by now to a lot of Iraqis.
2. Bush isn't actually over there himself, so neither would Saddam come here in person in the analogy. He'd set up a local government led by someone who is not a dictator. More like a stooge.
3. The US army is also killing soldiers and Iraqi civilians. "Ruthless" intention is subjective, and not far off the mark even looking from this side. It's hard to tell the exact intentions of someone who's shooting at you, but you pretty much always assume the worst.
4. In my analogy, the Iraqi army (proper) would exit US soil faster once their Islamic government is entrenched here, of course. Does that mean you would wait around for that government to dig in its heels or would you start fighting them in any way available?

Progress as you put it is likely seen by the local population as Oppression. In fact, it happens to be the very definition of oppression: "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control" (from OS X's dictionary). "Prolonged" and "Control" are undeniable in our treatment of Iraq, "Cruel" is barely debatable (just look at the beginning of this thread), and "Unjust" is exactly what I've been discussing with mojo2. In fact the only "justification" presented is that if we don't do it our own standard of living might drop. That hardly means anything to Iraqis. So what are we left with? Their actions make it harder for oppression to happen. I'm having a hard time holding that against them.

It's like we're kicking down a bees' nest and then getting upset because the bees are stinging us. It's madness.

[demograph68]

What do you think is the best thing that the US can do so that the situation there doesn't degrade to an all out civil war as some have speculated? And you're absolutely right that the people in this story did the wrong thing. I don't like George Bush either but I find the comparison to Saddam weak. I don't think the kurds will agree.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I don't know. It's a disaster. All I have is I-told-you-so's, and I didn't actually tell you so I'll keep them to myself.

Remember the only reason you're talking to me is because I pointed out that you can't blame the people in Iraq for fighting us in any way they can, because we're the evil invading empire. The fact that we might not have an option for a magic fix doesn't change the fact that they are acting entirely as expected and with just cause. That's often what happens when you lose the moral high ground, nobody ends up being the "good guys."

Sometimes civil war is unavoidable, the best solution is just the one that's least bad, and you just have to retreat back to your own country. I don't know if this is one of them.

This is one of theose messes where Futurama used to illustrate everything I hate about our recent federal policies:

emergency.mov

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by demograph68

I don't like George Bush either but I find the comparison to Saddam weak.

I also want to clarify this. I'm not saying W is just like Saddam in the way they run their countries. But solely from the point of view of a citizen of the invaded country, if Bush invades Iraq and installs a new government in the image of America, not withdrawing militarily until that government is secure, it's little different than if Saddam had done the same to America, with a new government in the image of Iraq. The fact that one happens to be a bad man to his own country is irrelevant. I won't even get into the coincidence that Saddam killed his citizens out of hate while W killed his citizens out of incompetent appointments.

I'm just saying you can't question the motivations of your enemy before you honestly ask yourself how you would react if the situation were reversed.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

if Bush invades Iraq and installs a new government in the image of America, not withdrawing militarily until that government is secure

It would be safe to assume that we won't leave until that government is secure and that it will be the way the Iraqi people choose it to be, as long as it is by a democratic process. I can agree that our role in how that happens is questionable.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by demograph68

If anything, them attacking troops and Iraqis is the direct reason why it is taking longer to restore Iraq.

And luckily what is keeping the US government from bringing death and destruction to more ME countries. While you are stuck in Iraq other people live.

May it continue until you've learned your lesson. Just like Soviet.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

I'm about to ask you something I have no right to expect from you, and that's a fair, honest response. Really, take a deep breath, let it out, and try to imagine what you would do in the following situation.

Saddam Hussein invades and occupies America. Do you roll over and say "fair enough," let him install his Islamic government in the image of Iraq's and start pumping American oil back to Iraq in exchange for whatever God-forsaken currency Iraq uses? Or do you round up a posse and start resisting? Would you blame other Americans for resisting?

...

Excerpt from Bin Laden by Immortal Technique:

.....

They say the rebels in Iraq still fight for Saddam
But that's ********, I'll show you why it's totally wrong
Cuz if another country invaded the hood tonight
It'd be warfare through Harlem, and Washington Heights
I wouldn't be fightin' for Bush or White America's dream
I'd be fightin' for my people's survival and self-esteem
I wouldn't fight for racist churches from the south, my nigga
I'd be fightin' to keep the occupation out, my nigga
You ever clock someone who talk ****, or look at you wrong?
Imagine if they shot at you, and was rapin' your moms

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by demograph68

What do you think is the best thing that the US can do so that the situation there doesn't degrade to an all out civil war as some have speculated? And you're absolutely right that the people in this story did the wrong thing. I don't like George Bush either but I find the comparison to Saddam weak. I don't think the kurds will agree.

"degrade to an all out civil war"? Wake up please. They are already there.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by himself

Help me out here, mojo2:

On the one hand, you like to talk a lot about “peak oil” and how any disruption of our oil supply will kill America (thus plunging us into oblivion). Fine.

On the other hand, you talk a lot about how it is much more worth our while to just bogart the oil we need to survive (crackhead style), even though it may not sustain our society for much longer, meaning it will eventually run out anyway (thus plunging us into oblivion). Fine.

In the same breath, you go on about the futility of researching alternate energy sources, because that means we will be moving away from oil and without oil we die (thus plunging us into oblivion)...We just can't win with you, can we? Why even bother? The end result will always be oblivion according to you, anyway. Why bother researching other options that will possibly allow us to survive without oil at some point in the inevitable future, when we can put those same resources into mojo2's lost cause that is jacking the world for oil that will be depleted soon??

Forget about 'winning' with ME. Just try to look intelligently at the situation...from an EDUCATED position...and then tell me how differently you view my posts.

I maintain anyone looking at the circumstances we are in and the options that exists and who has a desire to maintain America as the world leader it is, will sound very much like I do.

However, I fear that mojo2's scenario and the current war in Iraq is only a peek at our future on this planet, unless we take seriously the need to research alternative energy sources (you know, scientific research? The kind of research that makes these "pie-in-the-sky" alternatives a possibility?) Think constant wars for resources like oil, freshwater, etc.

I really don't understand your aversion to commencing this research as soon as possible, so that we can possibly begin a smooth (or smoother, compared to your outlook) transition from fossil fuels once the reserves start to run low?

What I'm averse to is getting all excited about any number TRANSITIONAL technologies, (SOME of which actually speed up our use of fossil fuels and couldn't exist WITHOUT oil...like bio-fuels) when the real answer to our energy problems, the answer that we'll be able to use to keep us from living like the Amish hasn't been found.

The REAL answer will take A LOT of money to discover and develop. It will take time. It will take an educated and motivated public.

If we spend the time and money and MIS-lead the public into believing that transitional energy technologies are the way to go, the public will continue to party as usual. Then, when the day of reckoning comes when the transitional technologies won't/can't maintain/support the trillion dollar American economy we'll be fexxed. Or, if we wake up to the fact that we really need to focus our attention and resources on THE ANSWER, the resources won't be there, having been mis-spent on tranitional technology and we won't have the time because it WILL take dozens and dozens of years to switch all our factories and plants and utilities and vehicles and products to the NEW energy source.

But, as economic growth is determined by faith and confidence that business and investments will produce a ROI a return on investments without oil there IS no confidence. Because without oil there is no way we can reliably run our country. EVERYTHING WILL FAIL if we don't find a suitable ANSWER for oil and if we don't find it in time.

What you are doing, admittedly to a lesser degree than others here, is to lay your own personal model onto this brand new paradigm.

THROW AWAY YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND MODELS. Instead, let the facts help you develop a NEW model, as I have done.

I really don't understand your aversion to commencing this research as soon as possible, so that we can possibly begin a smooth (or smoother, compared to your outlook) transition from fossil fuels once the reserves start to run low?

Like where do get the idea we will have the time and $$ to have a smooth or smoother transition once the crap really hits the fan??? Once you really understand this, then you'll sound less blase.

Is this really too complicated for you to grasp?

Do not allow this phrase to tumble casually from your keyboard just because you see me use it with impugnity. I will hurt your feelings if you aren't careful.

Why is it their responsibility to rescue everyone else? According to you, it's every man for himself, take all you can carry. If any nation fails to plan for it's future, that is their fault and theirs alone. Do you really think that because one nation may not be planning for the the future, that we all need to sit with one thumb in our mouths and the other up our ass? What logic.

If you re-read that poster's post you'll see how he was hammering the US, yet what we're doing is just trying to stay alive and also to work on alternative energies. I was saying that if he was going to play spoiled unappreciative brat and glorify the OPEC nations, even though his own contry is doing what it can to make HIS existence comfortable then I was asking why DOESN'T S.A. or Iran or whomever do what we are trying to do? Develop a new energy answer. They have the $$. They recognize the need. You ask why is it THEIR responsibility? Well, why is it OUR responsibility? The reason it's our responsibility is because we DO have the broad shoulders and we ARE the leader. When everyone else screws up and can't do it, they call or look to US. And we're glad to do it. Except when snot nosed dumbasses spit on our efforts ON HIS BEHALF!

Let him go to SA or IRAQ and be another American Taliban, I don't freakin care. But OUR resident snot nose doesn't have the balls to do what John Walker Lindh did. So our hero will stay here and fight America online. Fine. Let him.

I think you have taken from my posts a message I did not intend. It's not so much every man for himself, but in this situation the normal buyer-seller relationship with SA and OPEC was threatened by OBL in 1996 and we have seen OBL doesn't make idle threats and so we took action to preserve the business relationship after we realized preceding 9/11 was a warning about a great attack on the US.

Here's a scenario for you to ponder: This peak oil stuff is true, and the world's oil reserves are nigh dry. Oil is (by far) the most expensive resource on the planet, costing about $300/barrel (you can only imagine how much gasoline costs). Most of the oil refineries on the planet have shutdown, because there isn't enough oil to keep them all busy (and this is all assuming we can stay peaceful and civil in the midst of this). However, the forward-thinking, industrious citizens of {insert nation here} have been hard at work researching a number of alternatives to oil for energy, and guess what? They are extremely practical. And because {insert nation here} was so diligent, they have been using this technology, reliably, for years. Not only that... lo, behold! People, nay, entire nations will gladly pay for these technologies! Industries around the research and development and further advancement of these technologies sprout like weeds, and the world economy stabilizes. Hark! This new technology is as clean as the clear blue sky! And renewable! It seems that mankind has learned it's lesson from utilizing non-renewable, poison-proliferating energy sources... we now gaze in wonder at these curious petroleum-powered machinations at the history museums, laughing in disbelief at the folly of our self-destructive behaviour...

Well... this scenario may seem a bit idyllic, but I think it is much more practical than, and preferred over, your Mad Max-style future outlook.

Why is it more practical? Because it fits YOUR rmental model of the way things go??? Show me two responsible oil analysts or futurists who predict this kind of future.

We ALL WISH for something this rosy but you must STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP making up your fairy tales the way YOU WANT things to be without any facts to back them up.

You ninny, this is not a matter of competing fairy tales. I read on the subject. Many different sources. When you read more than a handful of articles from various points of view and various authors you will see how silly your post sounds and you will begin getting serious about this.

One of the morals of this story is that whatever nation (or group of nations) is in the forefront of this research will likely be the worlds next “superpower.”

This may be true, although "Superpower" may take on a WHOLE new meaning by then.

The funny thing is, while you are poo-pooing the research of alternative energy sources, this research is well underway... by our beloved oil conglomerates, no less, among many others. I have a friend who is in the process of getting a patent for a fuel cell design that appears to be very promising. Mojo2, this stuff is gonna happen with or without you, whether you like it or agree with it or not.

WHETHER I LIKE IT OR NOT???? I'm trying to encourage as much innovation as possible in the right ways to find an answer to the problem of Peak Oil and what comes from it tomorrow and 100 years from now. That you can so misunderstand what I've tried so diligently to post here shows one of us is absolutely cracked.

As for your friend with the fuel cell, if he's a friend of YOURS I won't expect much from this invention.

[waxcrash]

…

[Cody Dawg]

What the hell does "alternative energies" have to do with the fact that United States soldiers desecrate the dead - even their fellow soldiers?

NO EXCUSE.

It's disgusting. I'm ashamed of them.