[notloc_D]

Holy Cow, between 20 - 30K dead in the Pakistani/ Indian earthquake and coverage is horrible...at least here in the US. I work at a tlevision station, and the newscast devoted all of 20 seconds to it. Hell, no one has even posted anything here.

Have we gotten to the point were we only care if a massive event like this only occurs in the west, or if it hurts the US (from the European/ Canadian POV) Hell, 5 minutes after Katrina...all of the finger pointers were already blaming bush.

Now an even more catastrophic event occurs, and the word is mum?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171669,00.html

[notloc_D]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1145694.stm

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

Holy Cow, between 20 - 30K dead in the Pakistani/ Indian earthquake and coverage is horrible...at least here in the US. I work at a tlevision station, and the newscast devoted all of 20 seconds to it. Hell, no one has even posted anything here.

Have we gotten to the point were we only care if a massive event like this only occurs in the west, or if it hurts the US (from the European/ Canadian POV) Hell, 5 minutes after Katrina...all of the finger pointers were already blaming bush.

Now an even more catastrophic event occurs, and the word is mum?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171669,00.html

Originally Posted by notloc_D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1145694.stm

The BBC article says that we, the US, have donated $100,000 so far. I think we could do a lot more. And, we already have a lot of the heavy-lift helicopters in the region that Pakistani President Musharraf asked for on television--So they could fly into remote regions and evacuate large number of injured. Seeing as how we are hunting for Osama bin Laden in the Afghani/Pakistan border region--but are publicly forbidden from having troops in Pakistan--I would think this provides us a perfect opportunity to do something beneficial for the Pakistani people AND help us in the hunt for OBL.

We should promise the Pakistani government all the help we can provide for the next few weeks--our forces are already there, we don't need to wait to move in troops--in quiet exchange for more overt help in finding Osama bin Laden. We could give the Pakistani's tremendous help now and have President Musharraf "Thank" us in a month or two by calling for more public assistance from Pakistani citizens in the search for OBL while quietly allowing covert US military operations to take place within Pakistani territory.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

The BBC article says that we, the US, have donated $100,000 so far. I think we could do a lot more. And, we already have a lot of the heavy-lift helicopters in the region that Pakistani President Musharraf asked for on television--So they could fly into remote regions and evacuate large number of injured. Seeing as how we are hunting for Osama bin Laden in the Afghani/Pakistan border region--but are publicly forbidden from having troops in Pakistan--I would think this provides us a perfect opportunity to do something beneficial for the Pakistani people AND help us in the hunt for OBL.

We should promise the Pakistani government all the help we can provide for the next few weeks--our forces are already there, we don't need to wait to move in troops--in quiet exchange for more overt help in finding Osama bin Laden. We could give the Pakistani's tremendous help now and have President Musharraf "Thank" us in a month or two by calling for more public assistance from Pakistani citizens in the search for OBL while quietly allowing covert US military operations to take place within Pakistani territory.

When you think about it, a small country like Denmark (roughly 5.000,000 citizens) has donated a sum equivelent to $1.600,000, why didn't US give more?

Well, it could be because US is to busy mopping up the mess after Katrina left, so that the citizens have enough to think about... Or it could be because Pakistan is Muslem country? I don't know, I just know that my wife and I are worried about my brother-in-laws family - they live in Islamabad...

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by vexborg

When you think about it, a small country like Denmark (roughly 5.000,000 citizens) has donated a sum equivelent to $1.600,000, why didn't US give more?

Well, it could be because US is to busy mopping up the mess after Katrina left, so that the citizens have enough to think about... Or it could be because Pakistan is Muslem country? I don't know, I just know that my wife and I are worried about my brother-in-laws family - they live in Islamabad...

How cheap can you get. We had Katrina, Rita, and we are still dealing with terrorist throughout the world. I would think other nations are good for sometyhing.,

And I hope your family is alright

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

How cheap can you get. We had Katrina, Rita, and we are still dealing with terrorist throughout the world. I would think other nations are good for sometyhing.,

And I hope your family is alright

You don't give a crap about Canada or Europe. What's Pakistan to you besides a possible refuge (in the wild west northern zone) for OBL?

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

You don't give a crap about Canada or Europe. What's Pakistan to you beside a possible refuge for OBL.

Actually, I have many friends from India. One from Pakistan. Unlike Canadians and euromites, I don;t take pleasure in the pain and suffering of others. But, as usual, canadians and europeans use tragedy to take pot shots at the US. It is quite shameful

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by vexborg

When you think about it, a small country like Denmark (roughly 5.000,000 citizens) has donated a sum equivelent to $1.600,000, why didn't US give more?

Well, it could be because US is to busy mopping up the mess after Katrina left, so that the citizens have enough to think about... Or it could be because Pakistan is Muslem country? I don't know, I just know that my wife and I are worried about my brother-in-laws family - they live in Islamabad...

I know it's fun to dog pile on the US lately but perhaps everyone should have a little patience before rushing to judgement. As of this morning the US has pledged $50M (from the government, I am sure donations from the US public will dwarf that amount) and 8 helicopters to assists the Pakistani government in ferrying in supplies and out the wounded. They have also sent General Abazaid to check with his Pakistani counterparts to see what additional military assistance and aid we can provide.

I'd also like to note that when that terrible earthquake hit Bam, Iran last year or the year before the US offered financial and other assistance to the Iranian government. (I believe they refused.)

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

Actually, I have many friends from India. One from Pakistan. Unlike Canadians and euromites, I don;t take pleasure in the pain and suffering of others. But, as usual, canadians and europeans use tragedy to take pot shots at the US. It is quite shameful

Aw shut the heck up.

Rescue is always long and difficult to organize. Usually, the neibourging countries should give the fastest and most efficient help as phase one.

Then International resources come in if they are invited. The area of the tragedy is a highly militarized one of Pakistan, and there is no doubt that government will want to ensure control of whoever gets there. Also, it is in a remote area difficult to access. Government don't just want to give money; they wnt to provide assistance then announce its value to the media afterwards.

I am sure we'll see more cash flowing in that direction in one shape or another.

[ebuddy]

I'm agreeing with RIRedinPA and Pendergast? The end may very well be near.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I'm agreeing with RIRedinPA and Pendergast? The end may very well be near.

Nah.

It is teh beginning!



Today there were announcements about more money promised, and Musharaf is asking for help so there might be more.

Of course, Pakistan is not a vacation resort, does not have much oil, the devasted area is a war zone of some sort, and it was an earthquake, not a flood, so I doubt we'll see too much money anyway. The buildings will be rebuilt but there is no money available for the same type built in Japan, which would be more appropriate so...

Third World countries are going to keep their status for a long time, unfortunately.

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Aw shut the heck up.

Rescue is always long and difficult to organize. Usually, the neibourging countries should give the fastest and most efficient help as phase one.

Then International resources come in if they are invited. The area of the tragedy is a highly militarized one of Pakistan, and there is no doubt that government will want to ensure control of whoever gets there. Also, it is in a remote area difficult to access. Government don't just want to give money; they wnt to provide assistance then announce its value to the media afterwards.

I am sure we'll see more cash flowing in that direction in one shape or another.

Yea, Musharraf is begging for help...not control.

[ghporter]

How many times does the world have to experience a disaster of epic proportions before people will start figuring out that it takes a while to comprehend the scope of the damage, the number of people affected and what their needs are, and of course to have the sovereign government of the affected area ask for or accept even an offer of assistance. It's been less thaqn 72 hours, and a lot is already happening.

The affected regions of Pakistan are getting more attention than they might have a few months ago, and there's quite a bit of coverage on the US news. But since so many news organizations took so much flack in New Orleans about watching without helping, they're probably not fighting tooth and nail to go report on an even worse disaster.

[mojo2]

U.S.: Aid to Pakistan up to $50m

Monday, October 10, 2005; Posted: 6:07 a.m. EDT (10:07 GMT)

Helicopters are needed to transport supplies past roads blocked by landslides.
WATCH
Browse/Search
Toll of dead and injured continues to rise (2:37)
Pakistani president asks for international aid (6:50)
Rescuers try to find survivors in rubble (6:37)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States will provide initial aid of up to $50 million for reconstruction and relief efforts in Pakistan in the aftermath of a weekend earthquake that killed at least 30,000 people across the region.

"The destruction and loss of life in Pakistan is massive, and the United States is responding rapidly and robustly," a statement from the White House press secretary said late Sunday

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

Yea, Musharraf is begging for help...not control.

Now he is.

BUt the area is disputed by India and Pakistan for quite a while. You think he'll let anyone go there without some knowledge about it?

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Now he is.

BUt the area is disputed by India and Pakistan for quite a while. You think he'll let anyone go there without some knowledge about it?

with 20,000+ dead. Yes. absolutely. I don't think everyone has such evil intentions in time if tragedy. 1.2 million people are homeless. Do you think anyone who values life and simply cares is worried about a disputed area?

As for the person who mentioned Iran....If IIRC, Iran was capable of rescue efforts, but I do believe they accepted monetary help.

[cmeisenzahl]

I just heard on the radio that the US is sending 50 million. There are many things that go on in the world that aren't mentioned on this board.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by cmeisenzahl

I just heard on the radio that the US is sending 50 million. There are many things that go on in the world that aren't mentioned on this board.

Except, it was mentioned on this board.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

with 20,000+ dead. Yes. absolutely. I don't think everyone has such evil intentions in time if tragedy. 1.2 million people are homeless. Do you think anyone who values life and simply cares is worried about a disputed area?

As for the person who mentioned Iran....If IIRC, Iran was capable of rescue efforts, but I do believe they accepted monetary help.

When you are at war, whatever the contenders think becomes plausible in their minds, evene if everyone is well intentioned.

IIRC, some country vicitm of a Tsunami lately refused the help of a neighbour on the basis that there was a guerrilla in operation there, even though the country was facing an immeasureable ordeal.

So yes, it is possible that some people think it is not advisable to receive help from some specific others.

Geez, even the US was reluctant to get help at the beginning of Katrina...

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

When you are at war, whatever the contenders think becomes plausible in their minds, evene if everyone is well intentioned.

IIRC, some country vicitm of a Tsunami lately refused the help of a neighbour on the basis that there was a guerrilla in operation there, even though the country was facing an immeasureable ordeal.

So yes, it is possible that some people think it is not advisable to receive help from some specific others.

Geez, even the US was reluctant to get help at the beginning of Katrina...

I think, in todays day and age of instant information, denying help and allowing suffering would be detrimental to any leader.

As for the US, I wouldn't say that we were reluctant, i would say that our leadership, from top to bottom was incompetent, prideful, and over-confident.

I would also say that it took time to evaluate the situation.

[Pendergast]

When leaders are paranoiacs as many are these days, it's just the norm.

Anyway, this is not an important debate; what counts is that good help is on its way. Whoever helps, I do not care, as long as enough gets there. People give what they can give. I would not expect the US to give too much since they need to recover from Katrina and prepare for potential more hurricanes coming their way. It is only fair you try to help yourself first, otherwise it becomes impossible to provide any help afterwards.

[notloc_D]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

When leaders are paranoiacs as many are these days, it's just the norm.

Anyway, this is not an important debate; what counts is that good help is on its way. Whoever helps, I do not care, as long as enough gets there. People give what they can give. I would not expect the US to give too much since they need to recover from Katrina and prepare for potential more hurricanes coming their way. It is only fair you try to help yourself first, otherwise it becomes impossible to provide any help afterwards.

YOu can't be canadian. I actually agree with you and sort of enjoy discussing issues with you today!

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by notloc_D

YOu can't be canadian. I actually agree with you and sort of enjoy discussing issues with you today!

Although I am Canadian, I rather see myself as a human being first. Anything else is superfluous in the grand scheme of things.

Prejudice aside, you can be interesting too.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I'm agreeing with RIRedinPA and Pendergast? The end may very well be near.

That explains those four horsemen that just trotted by my office window.

[olePigeon]

We're too worried about Mousie the stuffed mouse being whisked away in a balloon. It's a tragedy.

[Rolling Bones]

72 hours. That's what they say is the time you have to rely only on yourself after a devastating catastrophe. FEMA and other experts agree on this and have stated it. Even if it's in the USA.

[Millennium]

The tsunami, Katrina, Rita, and now the quake. This is telling me at least two things...

1) Apparently a lot of people think the US has an infinite amount of money and/or other resources
2) This is one hell of a year for natural disasters, and whether or not you blame the hurricanes on global warming that doesn't explain everything that's going on. Is there something else going on, or is this a long chain of freak coincidences?

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Millennium

The tsunami, Katrina, Rita, and now the quake. This is telling me at least two things...

1) Apparently a lot of people think the US has an infinite amount of money and/or other resources
2) This is one hell of a year for natural disasters, and whether or not you blame the hurricanes on global warming that doesn't explain everything that's going on. Is there something else going on, or is this a long chain of freak coincidences?

It's the end of the world as we know it . . . and I feel fine.

Personally, I think Mother Nature is getting pretty pissed at us and is about to let loose the big one. Some giant, cataclysmic event--think massive oceanic earthquake couple by tsunamis--which F's up a big chunk of the planet.

It's a corrective measure, really. Nature's goal is to maintain itself and a planet infested with warring humans is not the best way to go about doing that. On the grand planetary scale humans are like the cockroaches we humans complain about. So, if mother nature comes up with some dreadful way of getting rid of large bunches of us it is really not so much different than what we do to cockroaches.

[Of course, none of this applies to you if a) you think humans are the pinnacle of the evolutionary process and are the intended recipients of this planet's bounteous offerings, or b) you don't believe in Mother Nature at all and think all the worlds problems are attributable to humanity's straying away from God's word, whichever God(s) you may believe.]

[dcmacdaddy]

Just wanted to follow up on this discussion of US aid to Pakistan after the earthquake.
It seems our military is being seen in a new, more positive light by ordinary Pakistani
citizens after we have helped with the delivery of aid supplies. According to the article
even some hardline clerics are giving us muted praise for our assistance. Read it for
yourself. The whole story is printed below.



Quake Aid Helps U.S. Alter Image in Pakistan
After Afghan and Iraq Wars Had Built Anger

By John Lancaster
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, October 22, 2005; A01


CHAKLALA AIR BASE, Pakistan -- High in a remote valley, the U.S. Army transport helicopter settled Thursday with a bump on the dry riverbed, and the earthquake survivors came running. Jostling and shoving for space, they crowded around the rear cargo hatch as the soldiers on board began tossing out tents, blankets and biscuits until they had no more to give.

As the helicopter revved its engines for takeoff, a balding man with a beard leaned across the edge of the lowered cargo ramp and, smiling his gratitude, extended his hand toward Brandon Chasteen, a 21-year-old Army medic from Chattanooga, who gave it a hearty shake. A moment later the chopper was churning toward another landing zone to pick up a load of injured.

Two weeks after the massive Oct. 8 earthquake in northeastern Pakistan, a mushrooming U.S. aid operation is doing more than just saving lives. It also is helping to improve the dismal public image of the United States in a conservative Muslim country where anti-American feeling has been aggravated in recent years by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Television news broadcasts have been filled in recent days with images of U.S. Navy cargo ships offloading relief supplies in Karachi, olive-drab Chinook helicopters disgorging bundles of tents and blankets in isolated mountain villages, and American soldiers -- some diverted from military operations in Afghanistan -- working with their Pakistani counterparts to evacuate the injured.

President Bush's Oct. 14 visit to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington to offer condolences for earthquake victims received wide coverage in the country's media, as did pleas by some in Congress for an increase in the $50 million in earthquake relief that the Bush administration has already pledged.

Even the conservative clergy, who have long been in the vanguard of anti-U.S. feeling in Pakistan, have grudgingly praised the U.S. response.

"Obviously, this is the other side of the United States," said Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Shujabadi, a prominent religious scholar in the port city of Karachi. "For the first time in so many years I have seen the American planes dropping relief and not bombs on the Muslim population."

It is too early to say whether the aid operation will have any lasting effect on public attitudes toward the United States in this impoverished nation of 160 million people, many of whom regard Osama bin Laden and the Taliban as heroes.

The Bush administration has close relations with Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president, a key U.S. ally in the war against terrorism. But the United States elicits far less warmth among ordinary Pakistanis, many of whom are convinced that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq reflect hostility toward their faith. A survey released in June by the Pew Global Attitudes Project found 23 percent of Pakistanis had a favorable view of the United States.

Against that backdrop, the Bush administration is eager to highlight its role in aiding victims of the massive 7.6-magnitude quake, which shattered towns and villages across a vast swath of Pakistani-controlled Kashmir and adjacent parts of North-West Frontier Province. Authorities estimate that the earthquake killed 40,000 to 50,000 people in Pakistan; about 1,400 more are thought to have died in the part of Kashmir controlled by India, just across the Line of Control, the cease-fire line that separates Pakistani and Indian forces in the disputed Himalayan province.

With many survivors trapped in remote areas that will soon be blanketed in snow, U.N. officials have warned that thousands more could die if foreign governments do not contribute more to the hugely complicated relief effort.

"The United States was in at the beginning," Ryan C. Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, told reporters Thursday. He cited, among other things, the airlift of 1,200 tons of aid in the 12 days after the quake, the deployment of a military field hospital in Pakistani Kashmir and the imminent arrival of U.S. Navy Seabees who will work with Pakistani army engineers to open roads blocked by landslides.

Perhaps most important, the United States has supplied 17 helicopters, including 12 from the military and five that were already in Pakistan on counter-narcotics duty. An additional 20 choppers are en route, according to Rear Adm. Michael A. LeFever, who is heading the U.S. military relief effort.

The lumbering, twin-rotor Chinook that landed on the riverbed Thursday was part of an Army National Guard unit that draws its personnel from several Western states and is deployed in southeastern Afghanistan.

Its pilot, Chief Warrant Officer Aaron Wallace, is a father of four and a former high school teacher who works back home as a helicopter instructor at an Army training center in Reno, Nev. His co-pilot, Capt. Dan Lewis, is a state trooper who flies for the California Highway Patrol and lives in Fresno, where he has a wife and 2-year-old son.

For them and the rest of the crew -- including Chasteen and another medic, a flight engineer and another soldier who normally mans a door-mounted machine gun -- the earthquake relief mission has come as something of a respite.

Since their unit arrived in Afghanistan in March, enemy ground fire has struck more than half of its 12 choppers, one of which was downed in Zabul province several weeks ago with the loss of all five on board; another has been shot at so many times that it has been nicknamed "the lead sled," according to Lewis, 35, whose laconic state trooper's demeanor fairly screams, "Driver's license and registration, please."

"It's a nice break," Lewis said. "It was strange for us to come over from Afghanistan because we had no idea how we'd be treated. But they came out, shook our hands. They're very nice people."

Thursday was a typical workday for the Chinook and its crew.

Loaded with tents, blankets and a small amount of food, the chopper took off from Chaklala Air Base near Islamabad at 8:35 a.m. under blue skies, then turned east toward the forested mountains of Kashmir. As is customary on such missions, a Pakistani army pilot, Capt. Saad Ullah Khan, rode in the cockpit jump seat to help identify targets for aid deliveries and communicate with people on the ground.

Just a few minutes from the Line of Control, Wallace pushed the aircraft into a slow spiral, dipping to within a few feet of the valley floor. The crew deposited its first load next to a creek, the helicopter's powerful rotors kicking up a storm of spray as villagers scrambled through the maelstrom to retrieve the bundles. Working their way slowly up the valley, the pilots and crew made several more deliveries, exchanging constant warnings over the intercom about the power lines that laced the area.

Following the last delivery, at the riverbed, they eventually landed at a military camp, where soldiers in surgical masks were digging graves and injured men, women and children awaited evacuation. After the injured were loaded on board and the chopper took off, Chasteen and another medic crouched at the side of a 12-year-old girl, gently applying a splint to her badly broken leg.

"She'll get to keep her leg," Chasteen said later that morning, once the chopper was safely back at base. "She's one of the lucky ones."

Chasteen, stocky and blond, the oldest of seven children, said he wants to pursue bachelor's and master's degrees in international relations when he gets out of the Army next year.

But in the meantime, he said, he is glad to be in Pakistan. "At least these people aren't trying to kill us," he said. "That makes it a little easier."

Special correspondent Kamran Khan in Karachi contributed to this report.


© 2005 The Washington Post Company