[Kerrigan]

I recall that shortly after Katrina, I heard a man on NPR call Katrina "poetic justice" because of America's rejection of Kyoto. This type of sentiment did not raise any eyebrows, many people are satisfied to accept this natural disaster and its staggering death toll as punishment for America's domestic policy.

So why is it that we won't tune into NPR and hear smug commentators calling this earthquake poetic justice? I myself would certainly not place the blame on anybody, but if you reverse the circumstances, the left's argument on Katrina can easily be used to assign blame for the earthquake:

In these traditional Islamic states, the economy is so rigid that modern and secure housing facilities cannot be afforded by the average citizen. If their leaders rejected fundemental Islam and opened up their economies, then the countries would develop and 20,000-30,000 people wouldn't die every time there is an earthquake.

These countries are also responsible for finding and selling the oil which pollutes the earth and supposedly causes hurricanes, so perhaps God or Allah sent this earthquake as a way to say "stop the drilling".

I'm not agreeing with any of this, but this is the same type of logic the far-left used during Katrina and they deserve to hear what they sounded like.

[OldManMac]

Let me get this straight; you heard a "man" on NPR, and now all the people on the left are saying that Katrina is poetic justice? How old are you?

[mojo2]

Because we ARE superior and that just wouldn't be 'cricket' for US to gloat that way.

Hmm...that's not QUITE right. We are truly blessed and so statements like that would appear, well, unseemly.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

In these traditional Islamic states, the economy is so rigid that modern and secure housing facilities cannot be afforded by the average citizen.

Please explain how this is so.

Thanks.

[Kerrigan]

I'm not here to defend that argument, I'm just here to throw it out there so that _some people_ can hear how ridiculous they sounded during the Katrina-global warming frenzy.

Remember all those arguments? People like SWG would quip "I don't understand why people live there in the first place" or "This would not have happened if the US had adopted a better pollution policy". This is simply the same logic applied to a different situation.

[loki74]

heh, very good point. They just want to hate on America and Bush... oh well. How many people seriosuly listen to NPR though? I heard they werent doing so well. how odd.

[mojo2]

Top of Page
Economy - overview:

Pakistan, an impoverished and underdeveloped country, has suffered from decades of internal political disputes, low levels of foreign investment, and a costly, ongoing confrontation with neighboring India. However, IMF-approved government policies, bolstered by generous foreign assistance and renewed access to global markets since 2001, have generated solid macroeconomic recovery the last three years. The government has made substantial macroeconomic reforms since 2000, although progress on more politically sensitive reforms has slowed. For example, in the third and final year of its $1.3 billion IMF Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility, Islamabad has continued to require waivers for energy sector reforms. While long-term prospects remain uncertain, given Pakistan's low level of development, medium-term prospects for job creation and poverty reduction are the best in nearly a decade. Islamabad has raised development spending from about 2% of GDP in the 1990s to 4% in 2003, a necessary step towards reversing the broad underdevelopment of its social sector. GDP growth, spurred by double-digit gains in industrial production over the past year, has become less dependent on agriculture. Foreign exchange reserves continued to reach new levels in 2004, supported by robust export growth and steady worker remittances.

CIA The World Factbook - Pakistan

[Kerrigan]

NPR was just an example, if I had the time I could dig up some of the threads in the lounge and find people expressing the same sort of sentiment.

[mojo2]

Here's a site for people who want housing in Pakistan.

http://www.expatriates.com/classifieds/pakistan/hw/

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I recall that shortly after Katrina, I heard a man on NPR call Katrina "poetic justice" because of America's rejection of Kyoto. This type of sentiment did not raise any eyebrows, many people are satisfied to accept this natural disaster and its staggering death toll as punishment for America's domestic policy.

I don't think America should have rejected Kyoto. I think global warming could increase the strength of hurricanes. I think the might be a chance that global warming is resulting from human influences ... or a combination of human and natural causes. I don't think Katrina was "poetic justice".

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I don't think America should have rejected Kyoto. I think global warming could increase the strength of hurricanes. I think the might be a chance that global warming is resulting from human influences ... or a combination of human and natural causes. I don't think Katrina was "poetic justice".

Have you LOOKED at Kyoto and WHY Bush didn't think it was fair???

I am against global warming and I DO believe it has something to do with our strange weather disturbances. But Kyoto places prohibitions on OUR emissions but gives a GREEN LIGHT to developing countries like China to cruise past any similar preventive cleaning, scrubbing and filtering measures.

Do you have ANY IDEA how much pollution Kyoto allow these guys to spew? And then everyone slams the USA. I'm not saying we SHOULD foul our environment. What I'm saying is NO ONE should!

Wikipedia

The current President, George W. Bush, has indicated that he does not intend to submit the treaty for ratification, not because he does not support the general idea, but because of the strain he believes the treaty would put on the economy; he emphasizes the uncertainties he asserts are present in the climate change issue [7]. Furthermore, he is not happy with the details of the treaty. For example, he does not support the split between Annex I countries and others. Bush said of the treaty:

The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol. This is a challenge that requires a 100 percent effort; ours, and the rest of the world's. America's unwillingness to embrace a flawed treaty should not be read by our friends and allies as any abdication of responsibility. To the contrary, my administration is committed to a leadership role on the issue of climate change. Our approach must be consistent with the long-term goal of stabilizing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere.

In 2003, China produced 0.74 metric tons carbon equivalent of CO2 per capita, a 40% rise from 1990. [8]

[mojo2]

You know, the funny/sad thing here is that maybe at a time like this the Earthquake stricken area might need a seasoned, experienced administrator to help coordinate their disaster response.

You think, Brownie would want the job??

You think he'd have a shot?

(In Pakistani voice) "No, no thank you Mister Brownie. We do not need your services. But thank you. Thank you very much. What did you say? "The problem is too much for the locals to handle???" What does this mean, sir? I'm afraid I must ask you to leave. Good day, sir. I'm sure you understand we are very busy. Good day, Mister Brownie..."

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Have you LOOKED at Kyoto and WHY Bush didn't think it was fair???

This thread isn't about why Bush pulled outta Kyoto. It's about someone labelling the earthquake "poetic justice" because he thinks everyone against Bush thinks Katrina was poetic justice. I was only pointing out that I'm a pretty good example of the demographic he thinks feel that Katrina was poetic justice, and that I don't think Katrina was poetic justice.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I recall that shortly after Katrina, I heard a man on NPR call Katrina "poetic justice" because of America's rejection of Kyoto. This type of sentiment did not raise any eyebrows, many people are satisfied to accept this natural disaster and its staggering death toll as punishment for America's domestic policy.

So why is it that we won't tune into NPR and hear smug commentators calling this earthquake poetic justice? I myself would certainly not place the blame on anybody, but if you reverse the circumstances, the left's argument on Katrina can easily be used to assign blame for the earthquake:

In these traditional Islamic states, the economy is so rigid that modern and secure housing facilities cannot be afforded by the average citizen. If their leaders rejected fundemental Islam and opened up their economies, then the countries would develop and 20,000-30,000 people wouldn't die every time there is an earthquake.

These countries are also responsible for finding and selling the oil which pollutes the earth and supposedly causes hurricanes, so perhaps God or Allah sent this earthquake as a way to say "stop the drilling".

I'm not agreeing with any of this, but this is the same type of logic the far-left used during Katrina and they deserve to hear what they sounded like.

Link please.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by loki74

heh, very good point. They just want to hate on America and Bush... oh well. How many people seriosuly listen to NPR though? I heard they werent doing so well. how odd.

You should hope that NPR and PBS live long and prosper, they are one of the few media sources not yet corrupt by spreading sensational FUD, embracing a fast-paced MTV style low attention span approach to the news, embracing lazy journalism, and run by media powerhouses.

I know, you don't like NPR because you think they don't bat for your team. That's really it, isn't it? Shallow.

[Rolling Bones]

I heard the evavangelical right wing blame Katrina on New Orleans being Sodom and Gomorrah.

I heard ****ed up Islamists say it was Allah punishing the Great Satan for Iraq.

I heard maybe the earthquake is God punishing Pakistan and Islamists for providing a refuge for Osama

I heard...


<edit>...changed Great Satin to Great Satan

[loki74]

Originally Posted by besson3c

You should hope that NPR and PBS live long and prosper, they are one of the few media sources not yet corrupt by spreading sensational FUD, embracing a fast-paced MTV style low attention span approach to the news, embracing lazy journalism, and run by media powerhouses.

FUD??? Hahhaah YEAH. OKAY. I'll tell you who's spreading FUD--the left. FUD the economy, FUD the war, FUD Bush's SC nominees....

Originally Posted by besson3c

I know, you don't like NPR because you think they don't bat for your team. That's really it, isn't it? Shallow.

What, and as if you don't love NPR because they don't "bat for my team?" Shallow, and hypocritical.

You really don't give half a crap about objectivity, do you? I take it you also think the NY Times is a credible, unbiased outfit?

=========================

Rolling Bones:

Extreme evangelical right-wingers and ****ed up Islamists do not claim to be objective right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NPR profess to be an objective, credible source?

All the same, your point is well taken. People on all sides say stupid things. But I think the hypocrisy lies in who claims to be fair, and who gets chewed out more for saying stupid things.

[notloc_D]

I read three sentences. Let's quit playing politics with natural disasters. Children are dead. Innnocence has been ripped from millions of people, whether it be Katrina, Rita, the earthquake, famine, anything. People are dead and devastated. Although I agree with the fact that euromites and candian haters have taken advantage of recent tragedies...prove we are better. CARE for those afflicted.

[Hawkeye_a]

As a human being, i am insulted at the fact that ANYONE would call a natural disaster "poetic justice". thats just sickens me to the core that anyone would even think that....inhuman just inhuman.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

n these traditional Islamic states, the economy is so rigid that modern and secure housing facilities cannot be afforded by the average citizen. If their leaders rejected fundemental Islam and opened up their economies, then the countries would develop and 20,000-30,000 people wouldn't die every time there is an earthquake.

You mean something like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4303992.stm

These countries are also responsible for finding and selling the oil which pollutes the earth and supposedly causes hurricanes, so perhaps God or Allah sent this earthquake as a way to say "stop the drilling".

Allah = God. It's just the Arabic word for God. And if that was the case he would certainly target the biggest consumers of oil as well.

Besides that your first post is just disgusting. The Pakistanis are still finding people alive and still trying to drag out the bodies of children and elderly. The only thing you've shown is that you are no better than those you claim to oppose.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I'm not here to defend that argument, I'm just here to throw it out there so that _some people_ can hear how ridiculous they sounded during the Katrina-global warming frenzy.

Remember all those arguments? People like SWG would quip "I don't understand why people live there in the first place" or "This would not have happened if the US had adopted a better pollution policy". This is simply the same logic applied to a different situation.

That's good cause it's a stupid argument.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I recall that shortly after Katrina, I heard a man on NPR call Katrina "poetic justice" because of America's rejection of Kyoto. This type of sentiment did not raise any eyebrows, many people are satisfied to accept this natural disaster and its staggering death toll as punishment for America's domestic policy.

So why is it that we won't tune into NPR and hear smug commentators calling this earthquake poetic justice? I myself would certainly not place the blame on anybody, but if you reverse the circumstances, the left's argument on Katrina can easily be used to assign blame for the earthquake:

In these traditional Islamic states, the economy is so rigid that modern and secure housing facilities cannot be afforded by the average citizen. If their leaders rejected fundemental Islam and opened up their economies, then the countries would develop and 20,000-30,000 people wouldn't die every time there is an earthquake.

These countries are also responsible for finding and selling the oil which pollutes the earth and supposedly causes hurricanes, so perhaps God or Allah sent this earthquake as a way to say "stop the drilling".

I'm not agreeing with any of this, but this is the same type of logic the far-left used during Katrina and they deserve to hear what they sounded like.

I think the Right should be blamed for the existence of the Left and vice-versa.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c

You should hope that NPR and PBS live long and prosper, they are one of the few media sources not yet corrupt by spreading sensational FUD, embracing a fast-paced MTV style low attention span approach to the news, embracing lazy journalism, and run by media powerhouses.

I know, you don't like NPR because you think they don't bat for your team. That's really it, isn't it? Shallow.

Not only that they don't give anything resembling equal time as an entity partly funded by public (read: tax) money, but they also regularly report in a biased, sensational, lazy fashion. They just happen to use money pickpocketed from the American people. Whatever they can't pickpocket, they beg with fundraisers.

In 2003, CPB received a $363 million federal appropriation. That's an incredible 45 percent increase in just four years. From CPB (corporation for public broadcasting) the money goes to NPR and PBS.

I can handle news outlets spewing lies and bile, but I hate having to pay for the pleasure of them doing so.

(And, what is it about PBS that thinks we want to see re-runs of "Are you being served?", "Eastenders", and other ancient bbc productions? Is that the quality programming made available by a grant from CPB and the begging at the yearly telethon?)

EDIT: PBS has had Tucker Carlson host a show in 2003. So he was the token voice of the other side of the aisle, and has since been removed from the network as far as I can determine from pbs.org ("this site has been retired")

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I'm not here to defend that argument, I'm just here to throw it out there so that _some people_ can hear how ridiculous they sounded during the Katrina-global warming frenzy.

Remember all those arguments? People like SWG would quip "I don't understand why people live there in the first place" or "This would not have happened if the US had adopted a better pollution policy". This is simply the same logic applied to a different situation.

It's still Bush's fault and this happened to Pakistan because they are allied with the US on the WoT. Wait for it...

All politic'in aside, this is tragic. Unbelievable amounts of rubble, destruction, and death. How many "bigguns" are going to occur this year?

[ghporter]

The "poetic justice" comment was from somebody being interviewed ON NPR, not FROM NPR. Keep that very straight, as whatever editorial bent NPR has, they are exceptionally clear on when they are reporting and when they're editorializing. The guy being interviewed was spouting one of the various points of view about the event-a particularly insensitive point of view, I might add, but one that was pretty common (particularly from Germany) in the European response to Katrina.

I think the only "justice" in this earthquake is that it has affected a number of terrorist groups using that portion of Pakistan as a safe haven. Perhaps Allah has indeed had something to say about their activities...

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

You should hope that NPR and PBS live long and prosper, they are one of the few media sources not yet corrupt by spreading sensational FUD, embracing a fast-paced MTV style low attention span approach to the news, embracing lazy journalism, and run by media powerhouses.

I know, you don't like NPR because you think they don't bat for your team. That's really it, isn't it? Shallow.

This is one of the verrry verrry few times I ever recall loki74 and I NOT having a similar POV on an issue although besson3c I think we've seen eye to eye before, right?

Note to loki74: I hope you'll excuse my weakness for NPR.

It's natural to look at the perceived bias of NPR but they really DO provide an important news service to people who want an alternative to the network TV & Radio news services and to the newspapers or local stations.

There is just no one else whose MANDATE is to be unbiased (if they get it too far wrong for too long they really DO feel the heat from either side). But, yeah their bias does tend toward the left. However, when you want in-depth, hour long interviews or behind the scenes stories from anywhere in the world and from years in the past and made available in a variety of formats (including online for free) it's either NPR or (on the TV side) PBS.

(A tip of the cap to Charlie Rose's great interview show...on PBS!)

They are a VITALLY important resource, bordering on a treasure.

Add to that the fact that in many markets jazz and classical music is no longer championed by commercial broadcasters, NPR is there to hold up a musical as well as a news and public service programming standard that we really would be poorer without.

Their major source of funding is from donations and the $$ they get from the govt. is as good an investment in keeping your fellow citizens informed as there currently exists with tax $.

[mojo2]

So, where is Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda's financial commitment to help the poor quake stricken people?

Add to the fact that this happened during Ramadan! There was a survivor who was just reportedly dug out after being buried for a couple of days and he said he wasn't hungry.

I wonder if it's because he didn't want to break his Ramadan "fast?" There are some proscribed punishments where breaking the fast for no good reason would call for the offender to have to fast for 60 DAYS! (Although it sounds terribly abusive, the follower IS able to eat a small meal and drink liquids between sunset and sunrise. There's more to it than even that but let's not derail. Eh? )

[Taliesin]

I think the earthquake in Pakistan that hit the most Pakistan, much less India and Afghanistan was indeed a punishment by God, probably for the murderous fighting and bombing for Kashmir , but maybe also for the chauvinistic treatment of women in those regions or the killing of people for alleged blasphemities..., ie. for the blatant ignorance and abuse of the quranic message by muslims.
I don't really know what mistakes India has done in the eyes of God, but with "only" 1,000 dead victims compared to the 40,000 dead victims in Pakistan, it must be less severe.

Radical islamists will probably see it, in their narrow-minded worldview, as a punishment for the government that allied itself with US and will probably double their activities to dethrone Musharraf's regime.

People, espescially secular ones, always argue and blame the death-toll on the weak housings or on wrong preparations for such a desaster like in the US..., but that is nothing but selfdeception, there is no protection against death as God decides who dies and when. If the houses were much stronger, God would have used an earth-quake with a much higher magnitude to achieve the same result, if dams (in New Orleans) had been higher or built stronger, God would have created a stronger hurricane, higher floods... to achieve what has to be done.

But regardless of all that, it's now our duty to show mercy, to pray to God for the surviving people in these regions, to give money, food and clothing, and for those able and living near these regions to actively and physically help out where possible, give shelter to the homeless...

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I think the earthquake in Pakistan that hit the most Pakistan, much less India and Afghanistan was indeed a punishment by God, probably for the murderous fighting and bombing for Kashmir , but maybe also for the chauvinistic treatment of women in those regions or the killing of people for alleged blasphemities..., ie. for the blatant ignorance and abuse of the quranic message by muslims.
I don't really know what mistakes India has done in the eyes of God, but with "only" 1,000 dead victims compared to the 40,000 dead victims in Pakistan, it must be less severe.

I'm incllined to agree here to an extent. I believe God designed this world with a predetermined end. In other words (while more effective than the average piece of electronics) the world was not designed to house us forever as we currently are. We are witnessing in many respects not only a moral decline in the spiritual, but a breaking down of sorts in the natural. We are separating ourselves from God and it is evident in the natural. While there exists extensive data to support the claim that there is no current increase in earthquake activity, the number of deaths caused by natural disaster this year alone has been extraordinarily high. I can't make this call for God, but I'd by lying if I told you I didn't feel there is some judgement in all this. Perhaps it's nothing more than to remind us of our mortality. Perhaps if nothing more, we can displace our political disagreements in favor of grace and gratuity for a change. Strife and struggle has an uncanny way of uniting people and reminding them of things that are more important than their stock portfolios.

Radical islamists will probably see it, in their narrow-minded worldview, as a punishment for the government that allied itself with US and will probably double their activities to dethrone Musharraf's regime.

People, espescially secular ones, always argue and blame the death-toll on the weak housings or on wrong preparations for such a desaster like in the US..., but that is nothing but selfdeception, there is no protection against death as God decides who dies and when. If the houses were much stronger, God would have used an earth-quake with a much higher magnitude to achieve the same result, if dams (in New Orleans) had been higher or built stronger, God would have created a stronger hurricane, higher floods... to achieve what has to be done.

The painful fact of the matter is that both sides have merit IMHO. The Tsunami for example;
had folks been more bent on spending the wealth of resources from beach front property-owning and resorts, hotels, restaurants, etc... in designing an early warning system, being good stewards of their blessings, they would've known it was coming much sooner and could've reacted. Instead, they chose to bolster their pocketbooks and build more in greed. We're all guilty in some respects and this leaves us open to "judgement". i.e. God is not necessarily authoring each peice as it happens, but has designed the earth from the beginning of time to do exactly what it is doing today. When we are not aware of our blessings nor mindful of how to properly care for those blessings we are then subjected to the design of our environment.

But regardless of all that, it's now our duty to show mercy, to pray to God for the surviving people in these regions, to give money, food and clothing, and for those able and living near these regions to actively and physically help out where possible, give shelter to the homeless...

Taliesin

agreed.