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IDF to appeal human shield ban
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Their are some info that is lacking in this discussion. Did they "sign on" to the "international law"? Who upholds the international law?
Are they not allowed their sovereignty?
I am just playing devil's advocate here to instigate discussion. I am against the use of involuntary human sheilds.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
They, they, they, they, they.
VW, you are a fair guy, right? If the IDF can be made to stop using civilians as shields in Palestine, shouldn't al Qaeda be forced to stop hiding behind innocents in Iraq?
And shouldn't compliance by ALL parties be simultaneous?
If one refuses then none can be compelled to?
(NOTE TO SELF: Make note of this example which COMPELS the reader to click on the link to gain virtually ANY understanding of the issue. Once at the website the reader is more likely to read the whole thing.)
NOTE TO READERS: From now on this is the direction I'll be going. If you want to follow the debate you'll HAVE to click and read.
(Last edited by mojo2; Oct 17, 2005 at 02:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by mojo2
They, they, they, they, they.
VW, you are a fair guy, right? If the IDF can be made to stop using civilians as shields in Palestine, shouldn't al Qaeda be forced to stop hiding behind innocents in Iraq?
So, you're saying the IDF is comparable to a terrorist network? Interesting.
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Originally Posted by mojo2
And shouldn't compliance by ALL parties be simultaneous?
No.
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Originally Posted by eklipse
So, you're saying the IDF is comparable to a terrorist network? Interesting.
You're admitting AQ *IS* a terrorist network. Interesting.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
No.
Yes.
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
Yes.
… if you want to give up moral high ground.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
… if you want to give up moral high ground.
As if there were any...
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
As if there were any...
Israel often thinks it is any better than the terrorists it is trying to fight. If they use the same methods the enemy uses, they will be no better than their enemy.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Israel often thinks it is any better than the terrorists it is trying to fight. If they use the same methods the enemy uses, they will be no better than their enemy.
The use of innocent people as shields is wrong. That aside, were the people they used as shields "innocent"? A not to common practice is for the IDF to take a felon and offer him release if he'll agree to talk to an insurgent on their behalf. This is most likely the case.
It's the person's choice, and they can decline if they choose not to do it.
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
The use of innocent people as shields is wrong. That aside, were the people they used as shields "innocent"? A not to common practice is for the IDF to take a felon and offer him release if he'll agree to talk to an insurgent on their behalf. This is most likely the case.
It's the person's choice, and they can decline if they choose not to do it.
Even the use of persons who are guilty (as in convicted of a crime) is morally wrong, as they are in Israeli custody and Israel assumes responsibility for their well-being. If you can't guarantee their safety, they shouldn't be allowed to do it (hence I agree with the Israeli Supreme Court ruling).
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Even the use of persons who are guilty (as in convicted of a crime) is morally wrong, as they are in Israeli custody and Israel assumes responsibility for their well-being. If you can't guarantee their safety, they shouldn't be allowed to do it (hence I agree with the Israeli Supreme Court ruling).
Hence the reason why I said "voluntary".
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Just when you think you can't get any more cynical about the Middle East...... 
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"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
Hence the reason why I said "voluntary".
How voluntary do you think it is when you are woken up in the middle of the night by IDF troops pointing their weapons in your face "asking" you to knock on the door of some apartment/building?
This is simply wrong. There are no excuses for this. And yet nothing will be done.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
How voluntary do you think it is when you are woken up in the middle of the night by IDF troops pointing their weapons in your face "asking" you to knock on the door of some apartment/building?
This is simply wrong. There are no excuses for this. And yet nothing will be done.
Actually, there is an excuse. A damn good one. A humanitarian one.
If a person is able to convince the suspect to give himself up and not resist, that resistance is futile, then that might make the difference between the suspect going to jail or to the morgue.
It could save the life of the suspect, the IDF AND the innocent civilians who are all too often used to evoke sympathy or as a debating tool but ONLY the IDF is doing anything about!
They are desperately and creatively trying to SAVE lives, PALESTINIAN LIVES as well as others, as opposed to the terrorists in Iraq who FORCE the innocents at gunpoint to stand between them and coalition troops while they fire on coalition troops.
They are ONLY trying to save their own lives by resorting to a COWARDLY act.
What the IDF does is an attempt to save ALL life.
Big difference.
HUGE!
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
Hence the reason why I said "voluntary".
Voluntary is relative if soldiers come and ask you. The line is too thin to walk. In fact `voluntary' (in quotation marks) seems to be the appropriate wording.
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Originally Posted by mojo2
Actually, there is an excuse. A damn good one. A humanitarian one.
Your choice of words is interesting: there is an `excuse' to use human shields? Not reason, purpose, or anything like this, but excuse. Hmmm.
Originally Posted by mojo2
If a person is able to convince the suspect to give himself up and not resist, that resistance is futile, then that might make the difference between the suspect going to jail or to the morgue.
That's not the job of someone who was taken into custody by Israeli authorities. The moment some body of Israel detains them (convicted or not), they are responsible for that life. What you're saying boils down to: they'd rather risk Palestinian ass than their own.
Originally Posted by mojo2
They are ONLY trying to save their own lives by resorting to a COWARDLY act.
So you call the practice of using human shields cowardly yourself? Just to make sure I completely understand what you are saying here, is it really `the IDF attempt to save all lives by resorting to a cowardly act' [sic!]?
Your wording is really strange.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Your choice of words is interesting: there is an `excuse' to use human shields? Not reason, purpose, or anything like this, but excuse. Hmmm.
Hmmm on this...
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
How voluntary do you think it is when you are woken up in the middle of the night by IDF troops pointing their weapons in your face "asking" you to knock on the door of some apartment/building?
This is simply wrong. There are no excuses for this. And yet nothing will be done.
I was making use of VW's choice of word to make a point. I omitted the quotation marks and the  . Your game is weak. You are grasping for straws.
That's not the job of someone who was taken into custody by Israeli authorities. The moment some body of Israel detains them (convicted or not), they are responsible for that life. What you're saying boils down to: they'd rather risk Palestinian ass than their own.
If your brother could be sent in to where you are hiding from the authorities and he is able to convince you to give yourself up and not go out in a blaze of glory, and your surrender saves YOUR life and that of innocent civilians, then I don't give a shixx what you say. I'm going to try to do my job with the least number of casualties. Let the lawyers do as they will.
So you call the practice of using human shields cowardly yourself? Just to make sure I completely understand what you are saying here, is it really `the IDF attempt to save all lives by resorting to a cowardly act' [sic!]?
Your wording is really strange.
No, you DON'T completely understand what I'm saying here. You sound like a Politically Correct human cliche spewing junior lightweight. And you don't read too good, either. And you'll remain there on your side of the court trying and thinking of some politically correct but passive aggressive little spiteful and provocative thing you can say to get me to re-engage you in this matter.
YOU read it over again until you understand it or, oh well, you just remain ignorant.
Either way, I don't care.
But make sure not to give up the moral high ground!
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Originally Posted by mojo2
I was making use of VW's choice of word to make a point. I omitted the quotation marks and the . Your game is weak. You are grasping for straws.
I'm not grasping for straws, I'm criticizing your poor wording and verbal skills (in your mother tongue at that).
Originally Posted by mojo2
If your brother could be sent in to where you are hiding from the authorities and he is able to convince you to give yourself up and not go out in a blaze of glory, and your surrender saves YOUR life and that of innocent civilians, then I don't give a shixx what you say. I'm going to try to do my job with the least number of casualties. Let the lawyers do as they will.
Obviously the Israeli Supreme Court disagrees with you on this.
Originally Posted by mojo2
No, you DON'T completely understand what I'm saying here.
If I do misunderstand what you meant to say, then it's a consequence of your lack of structure and poor choice of wording (let's not get started about the typos and all).
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In response, the IDF said that it had forbidden the use of Palestinians as human shields against attacks or as hostages, but did not rule out their use "in situations in which this aid would enable [the army] to refrain from military activity that could cause even greater damage to local residents, to soldiers and to property."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/634273.html
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
How voluntary do you think it is when you are woken up in the middle of the night by IDF troops pointing their weapons in your face "asking" you to knock on the door of some apartment/building?
This is simply wrong. There are no excuses for this. And yet nothing will be done.
I doubt that, very much.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Voluntary is relative if soldiers come and ask you. The line is too thin to walk. In fact `voluntary' (in quotation marks) seems to be the appropriate wording.
I was emphasizing.
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Originally Posted by mojo2
Actually, there is an excuse. A damn good one. A humanitarian one.
mojo2, I'll be waiting for the day where cops wake you up at gun point and politely request that you join them next door to ring the doorbell for them at a known murderer's or drug-dealer's house - "for humanitarian reasons."
You're hilarious in how you never actually think the second step...
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Originally Posted by analogika
mojo2, I'll be waiting for the day where cops wake you up at gun point and politely request that you join them next door to ring the doorbell for them at a known murderer's or drug-dealer's house - "for humanitarian reasons."
You're hilarious in how you never actually think the second step...
Right, and what part of "convicted felons were asked to do this" did you not understand? 
They're given the opportunity to do this to commute their sentence, and it's voluntary. I'm sure every one of you have seen other law enforcement agencies do the same thing... a drug dealer asked to wear a wire to bring down his suppliers, etc.. But, I suppose that isn't humane either. 
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
I was emphasizing.
I know. I was making a point.
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To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
Right, and what part of "convicted felons were asked to do this" did you not understand?
They're given the opportunity to do this to commute their sentence, and it's voluntary. I'm sure every one of you have seen other law enforcement agencies do the same thing... a drug dealer asked to wear a wire to bring down his suppliers, etc.. But, I suppose that isn't humane either.
Read the link I provided above. Educate yourself.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Read the link I provided above. Educate yourself.
Looks like a good propaganda tool. 
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
Looks like a good propaganda tool.
How predictable. 
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I was about to answer analogika's ridiculous assertions but realized I'd failed to read VW's pdf.
I'm only a couple of pages into it and the first thing I notice is how this pamphlet is unevenly accurate. On page 5 it says the method is the same used each time and then on later pages the method changes.
How can VW rely on a document with such sporadic reliability?
ANOTHER place it contradicts is when it supposedly quotes one IDF soldier saying a neighbor can't refuse an IDF request to go to his NEIGHBOR's house, he doesn't have that option.
On the next page it says Palestinians who are asked to do these things CAN REFUSE without any IDF reprisals against him, but if he refused he would draw suspicion onto himself.
Which is it? Can he refuse or not?
Are the methods used the same or not?
And it says that israel gave an order to cease those activities.
I'll get back to you with more truthful interpretations of this biased, lying document.
All it is is FIVE documented violations of the order.
VW hauls it out by HIDING it as a link.
People don't like clicking links so he called our bluffs by listing the link KNOWING the material is weak, but it gets credit for being a damning piece of evidence, when it is weak.
Weak, I tell you! 
(Last edited by mojo2; Oct 19, 2005 at 07:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by analogika
mojo2, I'll be waiting for the day where cops wake you up at gun point and politely request that you join them next door to ring the doorbell for them at a known murderer's or drug-dealer's house - "for humanitarian reasons."
You're hilarious in how you never actually think the second step...
Who, do you think you are thinking of? I am actually incredulous that you would think that I, I of ALL people on these boards, don't think AT LEAST of the second step!
J' accuse!
VW's pdf says sometimes A NEIGHBOR might be called upon to ring that doorbell of another neighbor. Think about it, if you were the terrorist would you CARE if a complete stranger got blown away? Maybe, maybe not. Human life is a commodity to you.
But if the person ringing the bell were your relative or friend or neighbor THEN you must act differently that you otherwise would.
So, get it through your head that it is NOT always a stranger.
Secondly, what is the natural inclination of people who live in a peaceful neighborhood to want?
Of course, it is to maintain peace.
How do peaceful people respond to a terrorist in their midst who goes, does his killing, then quietly comes home and lives among them in peace? They COULD report it if they realized his activity was going to bring violence to their neighborhood. They could talk to the men's family and tell them they do not want the IDF to "force me to come to your door in the middle of the night."
"I tell you, you must go away from here if you insist on being a terrorist!" In the fight that might ensue it could be ME or MY FAMILY to be killed. No, you must go."
Neighborhood Watch IDF style.
Second step?
What's yours?
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
How predictable.
Yep, it's an oldie, but a goodie.
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mojo, I have to remind you. Crack isn't good for peoples mental health. Remember that next time.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
mojo, I have to remind you. Crack isn't good for peoples mental health. Remember that next time.
I'll use this to help me remember.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
mojo, I have to remind you. Crack isn't good for peoples mental health. Remember that next time.
That's your rebuttal?!?! Typical.
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wow ... some people here are actually defending the use of civilians human shields? I'm sure the Palestinian terrorists are able to make an equally "humanitarian" argument to justify the practice.
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Originally Posted by Railroader
Who upholds the international law?
Sounds to me that in this case it is the Israeli supreme court that is threatening to uphold this particular international law.
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Sounds to me that in this case it is the Israeli supreme court that is threatening to uphold this particular international law.
No, they only uphold Isreal's national law.
Try again.
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Originally Posted by Railroader
No, they only uphold Isreal's national law.
Try again.
The Israeli SC specifically referred to international law in their decision. If Israel agreed to stick to international law, they (as part of the system of checks and balances) are also in charge of safeguarding international law.
From the article:
The Israeli supreme court issued its formal ruling last week, saying the practice violates international law.
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Originally Posted by Railroader
That's your rebuttal?!?! Typical.
What VW is doing, if you haven't noticed over the span of these few months I've been here, is to gradually discredit me.
When an attorney faces an opposition witness whose testimony may be damaging to his case, when all else fails, you undermine the witness' credibility in the mind of the jury.
LAPD Det. Mark Fuhrman admitted having used the N-word. The O.J. Simpson defense team established that he was a bigot. What defense atty. Johnny Cochran did was try to use this fact to manipulate the jury and appeal to their EMOTIONS.
Beware of anyone at any time who appeals ONLY to emotion. There are some instances when this is pretty harmless, as in promoting a form of entertainment such as a film or an amusement park ride.
But when you see or hear something being asserted or promoted only on the basis of emotion it is because the promoter has no other argument or they are betting on your falling for their chicanery, in other words, being dumb enough to be swayed by emotional appeals.
Simpson trial Judge Lance Ito was aware of the marginalizing being attempted by the defense team and so he tried to limit the emotional effect of the N-word on the jurors.
...recall Judge Lance Ito's decision in the O.J. Simpson trial to allow only two instances of Detective Mark Fuhrman's frequent use of the "n-word" to reach the jury's ears. Ito apparently found evidence of additional uses of the word to be both cumulative (that is, repetitive) and prejudicial (that is, overly likely to inflame the jury's passions against Fuhrman and thus against the prosecution).
What I do here is bring to light information that is documented and hard to refute.
The only two ways that the opposition can spin the truth is to try to confuse the interpretation with lots of details and hard to understand info or to discredit the 'witness.'
You wouldn't let your 5 year old make decisions for you. They like colors and lights and music and feel big happies and very sad sads and if they LIKE something, it is GOOD! If they DON'T like something, it is BAD.
Well, you understand the limitations of your 5 year old. But there is an inner child within all of us who resides in the realm of our emotions. When someone appeals only to our emotions it's the same as a telephone solicitor calling your home, talking to your 5 year old and getting the child to use your credit card to buy a years supply of bubble gum because it tastes good.
There IS a role and a place for emotions, as we are all human with emotional make ups. But if there are no rational, logical reasons behind any appeal for something, big red flags should go up in your mind.
Dear readers, keep your eye on the ball. Focus on the MESSAGE. And as for the emotions? Just feel them if you do, without letting them unduly affect your decision making.
(Last edited by mojo2; Oct 20, 2005 at 06:24 AM.
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Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
mojo, I have to remind you. Crack isn't good for peoples mental health. Remember that next time.
That comment is beneath you VW, or at least I hope it is.
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Retired
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
That comment is beneath you VW, or at least I hope it is.
Thanks Mac!
What VW is also doing is reaching into your brain and steering you away from sources of information HE considers harmful. Not harmful to YOU, but harmful to HIS purposes and intents.
An example. I was going to introduce a paragraph, the other day, from Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan but I didn't do it. Why? Because some posters had reached into my mind and persuaded me that I would have a difficult time making my point by using him as a source. He's a Muslim and a racist, they say.
Conversely, I have ALSO refrained from citing Daniel Pipes here in the P/L. Why? Because VW and the crew have reached into my brain and subtly programmed me to think of Pipes as a racist. I have only their word for it. I don't know but THEIR reaction was enough to influence me not to even go there.
You'd think someone like me would be immune to such influence, I'm not. And neither are most of you.
Don't let ANYONE tell you who you should or should not read or consider. Don't let anyone control your thoughts or your intellectual freedoms.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT'S AT STAKE IN THIS AREA OF THE JIHAD.
EDIT: Oh, btw, don't be too hard on VW. The Ramadan fast really DOES make you think a little bit differently than normally.
Doesn't it, VW?
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Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by mojo2
What VW is doing, if you haven't noticed over the span of these few months I've been here, is to gradually discredit me.
Gradually? No need for doing it gradually. No one takes you seriously around here. There's no need for me to discredit you, you do such a fine job of it yourself.
:cue right wingers claiming the opposite:
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To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
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Professional Poster
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
That comment is beneath you VW, or at least I hope it is.
True. Just get tired of the guy. Really, really tired of him.
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To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
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Addicted to MacNN
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Originally Posted by MacNStein
The use of innocent people as shields is wrong. That aside, were the people they used as shields "innocent"? A not to common practice is for the IDF to take a felon and offer him release if he'll agree to talk to an insurgent on their behalf. This is most likely the case.
It's the person's choice, and they can decline if they choose not to do it.
Sorry man, you're not giving them a "choice" in that instance. I would be fine with NOT giving them a choice if they were prisoners due to violence or plotted violence, but it seems that not many of those folks make it through the capture and/or detonation process. Pity.
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He can be fixed -- you can't.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Gradually? No need for doing it gradually. No one takes you seriously around here. There's no need for me to discredit you, you do such a fine job of it yourself.
:cue right wingers claiming the opposite:
I really think you're losing it.
Originally Posted by Macnstein
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
mojo, I have to remind you. Crack isn't good for peoples mental health. Remember that next time.
That comment is beneath you VW, or at least I hope it is.
I think Macnstein said it well. I guess it isn't beneath you.
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Originally Posted by von Wrangell
True. Just get tired of the guy. Really, really tired of him.
The Bible advises us to love the people we are really, really tired of and you will find deliverance. Maybe you should give Jesus a call. I admit I'm not the best Christian. But as smart as you are I'm sure you'd master the teachings of Christianity and become a much better Christian than I. Then soon you'd love me.
Problem solved.
Jesus Saves!
(Last edited by mojo2; Oct 21, 2005 at 12:53 AM.
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Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
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Originally Posted by finboy
Sorry man, you're not giving them a "choice" in that instance. I would be fine with NOT giving them a choice if they were prisoners due to violence or plotted violence, but it seems that not many of those folks make it through the capture and/or detonation process. Pity.
Palestinians who are asked to do these things CAN REFUSE without any IDF reprisals against him, but if he refused he would draw suspicion onto himself.
From my post above. From VW's pdf link.
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Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
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Originally Posted by Railroader
I really think you're losing it.
I think Macnstein said it well. I guess it isn't beneath you.
Thanks, RR!
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Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
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