[Athens]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224650.stm

This was the bloody point I was trying to get across before in other threads about Israels over reaction making things more difficult in the entire region and causing governments to weaken.

Hezbollah is riding a wave of popularity on the Arab street. Not since it played a role in forcing Israel to withdraw from southern Lebanon in 2000 has it enjoyed such adulation.

Its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah is enjoying something akin to a personality cult.

At a time when Arab governments are seen as largely powerless to influence events, Hezbollah is seen as taking on the Israelis - and behind the Israelis, the American superpower.

This has put Arab leaders - in particular those allied to the United States - in a difficult quandary.

So my question is this, what has Israel done... they didnt stop the attcks, they didnt make Hezbollah weak they just made it stronger. I think Israel is in a worst position now then before. Opinions...

[Athens]

The way I see it Israel played into the hands of Iran, and a few muslim friends have pointed this out. Before the fighting started the Issue or Irans nukes where about to be put on the table at the UN, all these events have side lined it. Now Arab countries are losing control, even Al-Qaeda is finding itself losing support for Hezbollah and what you have now is Iran in the best position it has been in years.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Athens

I think Israel is in a worst position now then before. Opinions...

Israel is in no worse a position now than before. Israel is many times stronger now than when they first won multiple wars against the arab muslims. Arab Muslims are in a worse position now than before, because they know that Israel won't take any crap from them and Israel will simply fight back and kill any uppity Muslim terror groups that get too rowdy.

Arab support for Hezbollah is a result of their own stupidity, their backwards culture and it's their problem. Those people are no good, they're pure evil. I predict many dead arab terrorists in the future, and rightly so.

[amsalpemkcus]

I think it is easier to deal with one or two super radical groups than several small lunatic factions.

[Millennium]

The Arab governments need to work together to crack down on terrorism within their borders. Those nations which do not have separation of church and state (which is to say most of them) would do very well to work with religious leaders in their countries to help expose the false jihad that these groups are trying to wage.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but you are right that unless they actually go and conquer the nations that host these groups, this will only have a limited effect, and I don't think anyone would argue that conquest is a good option.

[pooka]

I just find it amusing that Arabs don't mind puppet regimes so much as long as the strings aren't pulled by America.

[Athens]

Well my problem with this is every time Israel over reacts they make the Arab leaders week and allow the nut cases to grow in power making it that much harder for the Arab leaders and that much easier for the terrorists.

[BRussell]

Despite your penchant for obnoxious sig pictures, you have a good point here. It's the same mistake we (the US) made in going into Iraq. A natural split was developing, and we brought them together again. The same thing is happening here.

It reminds me of a concept in learning called undermining intrinsic motivation. If a kid drinks and gets sick, the last thing the parent needs to do is punish the kid. The natural learning is already occurring. The extrinsic punishment will serve only to weaken the natural learning and make the kid want to rebel again.

[amsalpemkcus]

Originally Posted by Athens

Well my problem with this is every time Israel over reacts they make the Arab leaders week and allow the nut cases to grow in power making it that much harder for the Arab leaders and that much easier for the terrorists.

Actually, I think the nut cases can be taken out only with the help of Israel. BTW, here is one man who could have made a difference in Lebanon but the moron fundamentalists killed him using 1 ton of explosives! now thats one loud statement!

[Y3a]

"Arab Leaders" LOL

[Y3a]

The way Muslims over react due to their cultural intolerence clearly shows THEM to be the nutcases.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Y3a

The way Muslims over react due to their cultural intolerence clearly shows THEM to be the nutcases.

anything religious is imho nuts be it Muslims, Jews, Chrisitans. Using faith to justify anything is silly. But I avoid those topics because they cant go anywhere.

[Kerrigan]

To Muslims, it is the height of evilness to ruled by people whose faiths are false or incomplete.

This is why their political, economic, and military inferiority to the west bothers them so much.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

To Muslims, it is the height of evilness to ruled by people whose faiths are false or incomplete.

This is why their political, economic, and military inferiority to the west bothers them so much.

And Christans are different how? The only difference is that in Christan countries state and church are seperate.

[Kerrigan]

Nope, Christian are a lot different. Greece actually preferred to be ruled by the Ottoman empire. Egyptian and Lebanese Christians also have no problems being ruled by Muslims.

The reverse is too evil a prospect for Muslims. "True believers" being ruled by infidels is wicked because it erodes Quranic law.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Nope, Christian are a lot different. Greece actually preferred to be ruled by the Ottoman empire. Egyptian and Lebanese Christians also have no problems being ruled by Muslims.

The reverse is too evil a prospect for Muslims. "True believers" being ruled by infidels is wicked because it erodes Quranic law.

And Canadian and American Muslims are agreeing to be ruled by a non Muslim state? I sill little difference between Christians and Muslims individually. Both wont accept the other faith, both think they are right, both attack the others faith (more so from Christians lately but being in a mostly Christian boards and country its prob just because of that) both think the other is evil. The only difference I see is the Muslim faith is in control of countries while Christians are not due to our laws of separation of Church and State. Side note, a very religious leader of the US did invade a Muslim country though which is as close to Church and state mixing as you can get here.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Athens

And Canadian and American Muslims are agreeing to be ruled by a non Muslim state?

They're not, some Canadian Muslims want Sharia law and also Muslims in many other parts of the world. These sorts of people are not welcome in civilized countries.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by PacHead

They're not, some Canadian Muslims want Sharia law and also Muslims in many other parts of the world. These sorts of people are not welcome in civilized countries.

Bolded, you said it yourself some not all.

[Kerrigan]

Most people who move to west want to get away from the ridiculousness of the Middle East. But there is an increasingly vocal minority, mostly of second-gen Muslims, and foreign rabble-rousers, who want to establish Sharia law in parts of Europe and N. America.

[Athens]

your argument is still weak because you cant base ALL on a few. I ask again how are Muslims and Christians different, the individuals not the states. The states are a poor argument because there are no Christian governments.

[Kerrigan]

In Islam, the religion is the state. The affairs of the state, politics, are central in the development of Islam. For instance, the division between Sunnis and Shia is a difference in agreement over a leader.

"Islam is politics or it is nothing." – a quote from Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini

Preservation of holy law is of utmost importance. And holy law can not develop if Muslims are ruled by nonbelievers. This is why there is so much rage when it comes to Muslims being in a subordinate position to atheist Europeans or infidel Christians and Jews. But the other way around, Muslims ruling Christians, is perfectly natural to Islam.

And one of the central features of Christianity (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's) allows for Christians to exist under infidel states.

Is there any point in trying to explain this though, to someone who compares Jews to Nazis?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

In Islam, the religion is the state. The affairs of the state, politics, are central in the development of Islam. For instance, the division between Sunnis and Shia is a difference in agreement over a leader.

"Islam is politics or it is nothing." – a quote from Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini

Preservation of holy law is of utmost importance. And holy law can not develop if Muslims are ruled by nonbelievers. This is why there is so much rage when it comes to Muslims being in a subordinate position to atheist Europeans or infidel Christians and Jews. But the other way around, Muslims ruling Christians, is perfectly natural to Islam.

And one of the central features of Christianity (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's) allows for Christians to exist under infidel states.

Is there any point in trying to explain this though, to someone who compares Jews to Nazis?

Im not comparing Jews to anything. I am comparing the State of Israel to the State of Nazi Germany.

[Kerrigan]

Like I said, there was no point in me even typing all of that.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Like I said, there was no point in me even typing all of that.

why?

[amsalpemkcus]

Originally Posted by Athens

Im not comparing Jews to anything. I am comparing the State of Israel to the State of Nazi Germany.

This makes better sense because it is a matter of autocrats:



Free sig for anyone who thinks this is more meaningful.

[Gator Lager]

Originally Posted by amsalpemkcus

This makes better sense because it is a matter of autocrats:



Free sig for anyone who thinks this is more meaningful.

now thats correct

[Gator Lager]

first and foremost:
I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE NAZI's
every race/religion/nation has it's looneys and nuts.

but Athens you may want to do a google on the historical ties between the
two (muslim and nazis)

some of the links in this site http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html
are dead or are the same thing.

do a google

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Gator Lager

first and foremost:
I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE NAZI's
every race/religion/nation has it's looneys and nuts.

but Athens you may want to do a google on the historical ties between the
two (muslim and nazis)

some of the links in this site http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html
are dead or are the same thing.

do a google

That link nicely passes over most of the history. All the people mentioned in that article were kicked out of their repective countries for their believes. Mufti had to flee to Germany.

The source itself borders on propaganda.

[Buckaroo]

When this first broke out, I was concerned that this might lead to WW3, but as I watch the events, I believe that if the Israles don't give in and continue on, they will eventually wipe out the Hebollah scum and then things will start to settle down. Lebanon may be in total ruins when it is over, but it will be over.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Gator Lager

but Athens you may want to do a google on the historical ties between the
two (muslim and nazis)do a google

One can find historical ties between almost any group and the Nazis. I think that's why we find Nazism so disturbing; it's only a half step away for almost every culture.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

One can find historical ties between almost any group and the Nazis. I think that's why we find Nazism so disturbing; it's only a half step away for almost every culture.

Here's an example.

"Henry Ford was a Nazi! OMG! America is full of Nazis! We're all driving Nazi cars!"

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

When this first broke out, I was concerned that this might lead to WW3, but as I watch the events, I believe that if the Israles don't give in and continue on, they will eventually wipe out the Hebollah scum and then things will start to settle down. Lebanon may be in total ruins when it is over, but it will be over.

and the new batch, what about them, you know the families and victums of this assult, its a endless cycle, violence always leads to more violence.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

When this first broke out, I was concerned that this might lead to WW3, but as I watch the events, I believe that if the Israles don't give in and continue on, they will eventually wipe out the Hebollah scum and then things will start to settle down. Lebanon may be in total ruins when it is over, but it will be over.

...because Germany in ruins in World War 1 worked out soooo well...

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Athens

and the new batch, what about them, you know the families and victums of this assult, its a endless cycle, violence always leads to more violence.

If the next batch is heathen terrorists, then yes, they too will be wiped out.

[Kerrigan]

Well if one is to look at the reality of the M.E.'s connection with Naziism, one ought to look at historical facts rather than make general comments. One such fact is that there were several thousand German "technicians" operating in Iran during WWII, being used chiefly to spread Aryan racial legends in Iran. These seeds fell on fertile ground.

There are many other incidents of Nazi and Axis powers sending propaganda specialists into the Middle East to a) turn local people against the Jews and b) to undermine English and French colonial interests.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by goMac

Here's an example.

"Henry Ford was a Nazi! OMG! America is full of Nazis! We're all driving Nazi cars!"

I don't think Henrey Ford was a Nazi. Where did you read this at?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by goMac

...because Germany in ruins in World War 1 worked out soooo well...

I think that they learned their lesson the second time around, that would be world war II.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

I don't think Henrey Ford was a Nazi. Where did you read this at?

http://www.google.com/search?client=...8&oe=UTF-8

He also published an Anti Semetic newspaper which he gave away free at his dealerships. I did a lot of research into Henry Ford a few years ago.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

When this first broke out, I was concerned that this might lead to WW3, but as I watch the events, I believe that if the Israles don't give in and continue on, they will eventually wipe out the Hebollah scum and then things will start to settle down. Lebanon may be in total ruins when it is over, but it will be over.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've had exactly the opposite sequence of thoughts. At first, I thought "of course Israel should defend itself with overwhelming force." Now, it's becoming more and more clear to me that this is simply not going to work. Not just because of civilian casualties, which is reason enough. But what they're doing just won't work. It's driving people to Hezbollah's side. It's growing them, not wiping them out. Even if they killed everyone currently in Hezbollah, they're creating new Hezbollah followers. It's the lesson of Iraq, all over again.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've had exactly the opposite sequence of thoughts. At first, I thought "of course Israel should defend itself with overwhelming force." Now, it's becoming more and more clear to me that this is simply not going to work. Not just because of civilian casualties, which is reason enough. But what they're doing just won't work. It's driving people to Hezbollah's side. It's growing them, not wiping them out. Even if they killed everyone currently in Hezbollah, they're creating new Hezbollah followers. It's the lesson of Iraq, all over again.

For every person's life that Israel destroys they are creating a new Hezbollah follower.

[Gator Lager]

Originally Posted by goMac

http://www.google.com/search?client=...8&oe=UTF-8

He also published an Anti Semetic newspaper which he gave away free at his dealerships. I did a lot of research into Henry Ford a few years ago.

Allegations of anti-Semitism and The Dearborn Independent

The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem. Articles from The Dearborn Independent, 1920
In 1918 Ford's principal secretary Ernst Liebold was accused by a reporter of speaking German to a reporter from a German-language Chicago newspaper. Military Intelligence investigated and dropped the case as baseless.
In 1919, Liebold used Ford's name and newspaper to attack the Jews (several years before the Nazi movement began). Liebold used Ford's authority to start a magazine, The Dearborn Independent, in 1919. The paper ran for eight years, during which Liebold republished "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion," which has since been discredited as a forgery. The American Jewish Historical Society describes the ideas presented in the magazine as "anti-immigrant, anti-labor, anti-liquor, and anti-Semitic". In February 1921, the New York World published an interview with Ford, in which he said "The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time. They fit it now."
The Independent also published, in Ford's name, several anti-Jewish articles which were released in the early 1920s as a set of four bound volumes, cumulatively titled "The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem." Denounced by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the articles nevertheless explicitly condemned pogroms and violence against Jews (Volume 4, Chapter 80), preferring to blame incidents of mass violence on the Jews themselves. None of this work was actually written by Ford--who wrote almost nothing. Other people told him about the contents, although Ford probably never read them (He claimed he only read headlines.)


Service Cross of the German Eagle
Libel lawsuits in response to anti-Semitic remarks led Ford to close the Dearborn Independent in December 1927. New reports at the time quoted him as being shocked by the content and having been unaware of its nature. During the trial the editor of Ford's "Own Page", William Cameron, testified that Ford had nothing to do with the editorials even though they were under his by-line. Cameron said he never discussed the content of the pages or sent them to Ford for his approval.[6]
In July 1938, a minor German diplomat in Detroit awarded Ford the Service Cross of the German Eagle for his contribution to industry. (A key General Motors executive also received the award.)
Ford publicly retracted the International Jew and the Protocols. In January 1942, he wrote a public letter to the ADL denouncing hatred against the Jews and expressing his hope that anti-Jewish hatred would cease for all time. But extremist groups often recycled the material--without permission; it still appears on anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi websites.
The Nazis took over day-to-day control of Ford factories in the spring of 1939. Those were tense times for American companies doing business in Europe. Ford had been concerned that the Nazis would nationalize its factories in Germany. In 1998, following extensive research by Ford Historians, the company reported the allegations to be false. Further, no Ford executive or family member visited Germany or attended any executive meetings with Ford of Germany during the time.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's the lesson of Iraq, all over again.

It's only a lesson if people learn from it ... so far, there's no evidence of learning

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Gator Lager

Allegations of anti-Semitism and The Dearborn Independent

The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem. Articles from The Dearborn Independent, 1920
In 1918 Ford's principal secretary Ernst Liebold was accused by a reporter of speaking German to a reporter from a German-language Chicago newspaper. Military Intelligence investigated and dropped the case as baseless.
In 1919, Liebold used Ford's name and newspaper to attack the Jews (several years before the Nazi movement began). Liebold used Ford's authority to start a magazine, The Dearborn Independent, in 1919. The paper ran for eight years, during which Liebold republished "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion," which has since been discredited as a forgery. The American Jewish Historical Society describes the ideas presented in the magazine as "anti-immigrant, anti-labor, anti-liquor, and anti-Semitic". In February 1921, the New York World published an interview with Ford, in which he said "The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time. They fit it now."
The Independent also published, in Ford's name, several anti-Jewish articles which were released in the early 1920s as a set of four bound volumes, cumulatively titled "The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem." Denounced by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the articles nevertheless explicitly condemned pogroms and violence against Jews (Volume 4, Chapter 80), preferring to blame incidents of mass violence on the Jews themselves. None of this work was actually written by Ford--who wrote almost nothing. Other people told him about the contents, although Ford probably never read them (He claimed he only read headlines.)


Service Cross of the German Eagle
Libel lawsuits in response to anti-Semitic remarks led Ford to close the Dearborn Independent in December 1927. New reports at the time quoted him as being shocked by the content and having been unaware of its nature. During the trial the editor of Ford's "Own Page", William Cameron, testified that Ford had nothing to do with the editorials even though they were under his by-line. Cameron said he never discussed the content of the pages or sent them to Ford for his approval.[6]
In July 1938, a minor German diplomat in Detroit awarded Ford the Service Cross of the German Eagle for his contribution to industry. (A key General Motors executive also received the award.)
Ford publicly retracted the International Jew and the Protocols. In January 1942, he wrote a public letter to the ADL denouncing hatred against the Jews and expressing his hope that anti-Jewish hatred would cease for all time. But extremist groups often recycled the material--without permission; it still appears on anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi websites.
The Nazis took over day-to-day control of Ford factories in the spring of 1939. Those were tense times for American companies doing business in Europe. Ford had been concerned that the Nazis would nationalize its factories in Germany. In 1998, following extensive research by Ford Historians, the company reported the allegations to be false. Further, no Ford executive or family member visited Germany or attended any executive meetings with Ford of Germany during the time.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm

The Wikipedia article is pretty editorialized. Ford's retraction was half hearted at best.

"I know who caused the war, the German-Jewish bankers. I have the evidence here. Facts. I can't give them out yet because I haven't got them all. But I'll have them soon." - Henry Ford, On World War 1.

http://history.hanover.edu/hhr/99/hhr99_2.html

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It's only a lesson if people learn from it ... so far, there's no evidence of learning

Yup, Israel and the US seem to keep making this same mistake, over and over and over and over again.

[Buckaroo]

Eventually there will be NO more to join their ranks. Eventually they will all be DEAD. If you have to keep killing them until they become French, they that is what must be done.

All terrorists must be eliminated until they become Frenchmen.

[Buckaroo]

It's crazy, I wasn't even a fan of Isreal until this. I'm backing them 100% until they eliminate all the terrorists. If that means turning Lebanon into a parking lot, so be it.

[Buckaroo]

Lebanon needs to take action to eliminate the infestation that is on their land. If they don't then they will pay the price. They will be dead.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

All terrorists must be eliminated until they become Frenchmen.

I never thought of it like that before, but do we really want to turn terrorists into frenchmen ? That's like going from bad to worse.

[Gator Lager]

Originally Posted by goMac

That link nicely passes over most of the history. All the people mentioned in that article were kicked out of their respective countries for their believes. Mufti had to flee to Germany.

The source itself borders on propaganda.

yes the reason he and his cronies hauled ass is because of the Brits. they kicked his nazi loving puppet army ass.

(British contingents entered Iraq from the Persian Gulf and from the Habbaniyah air base in April and May 1941; armed conflict with Iraqi forces followed. The hostilities lasted only 30 days, during which period a few Iraqi leaders, including the regent and General Nuri, fled the country. By the end of May the Iraqi army capitulated. Rashid 'Ali and his Pan-Arab supporters left the country.)

funny thing is. the nazis thought the arabs were just a rung above the jews on the race ladder.
the irony is once the nazis where through with the jews, they were next.

also the majority of arab countries sat on the sidelines during WWII until they chose a side. and in 1945 they opted for a side. the allied side. hmmmmmm.

here is some more propaganda
http://christianactionforisrael.org/.../arabnazi.html
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/nazis.html
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
http://www.politicaldogs.org/2006/04...s-combined.htm
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/al-q...onnection.html
http://www.politicaldogs.org/2006/04...s-combined.htm

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Egyptian and Lebanese Christians also have no problems being ruled by Muslims.

Soo... I guess you haven't spoken with Egyptian and Lebanese Christians then.