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hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 05:17 AM

Okay, it's Sunday. Need a bible study lesson. Just wondering if babies, fetuses, and embryos go to heaven based on the Bible. According to the Bible, all humans are born with Original Sin. So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

blackbird_1.0 · Jul 30, 2006, 05:29 AM

No, children under the age of accountability don't go to hell. I mean, they're incapable of understanding certain Christian ideas as teens and adults do.

If they don't know the difference, or aren't taught the difference between right and wrong, they're not accountable.

At least in my opinion, and what I've heard of others'.

Zeeb · Jul 30, 2006, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by blackbird_1.0

No, children under the age of accountability don't go to hell. I mean, they're incapable of understanding certain Christian ideas as teens and adults do.

If they don't know the difference, or aren't taught the difference between right and wrong, they're not accountable.

At least in my opinion, and what I've heard of others'.

But when exactly is one accountable? We're sending 12 year olds to prison these days.

hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Zeeb

But when exactly is one accountable? We're sending 12 year olds to prison these days.

Yes, there's a 12 year old who is charge with rape and murder. However, let's mix in religion and the laws of the land. By bringing in the complex legal definition of accountability, It'll make things too complicated.

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Okay, it's Sunday. Need a bible study lesson. Just wondering if babies, fetuses, and embryos go to heaven based on the Bible. According to the Bible, all humans are born with Original Sin. So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

It is not addressed in the Bible. I suppose none of the things you named are capable of reading anyway, so that's just as well.

Zeeb · Jul 30, 2006, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Yes, there's a 12 year old who is charge with rape and murder. However, let's mix in religion and the laws of the land. By bringing in the complex legal definition of accountability, It'll make things too complicated.

Fair enough, but going back to your original post I don't believe that babies would go to hell. Isn't there a bible verse that says someting to the effect of God accepting those who are "cold" and those who are "hot" but spitting out the "lukewarm". The cold being non-believers and the hot being devout people. Wouldn't a baby fall under the cold category? I dunno, maybe someone who has a better knowledge about this verse could comment.

Millennium · Jul 30, 2006, 06:22 AM

Depending on your interpretation, the answer could be "Yes," "No," or "No, but neither does anybody else."

Zeeb · Jul 30, 2006, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Okay, it's Sunday. Need a bible study lesson. Just wondering if babies, fetuses, and embryos go to heaven based on the Bible. According to the Bible, all humans are born with Original Sin. So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

Another thought I had on this subject is that you are interpreting the Bible way too literally. You correctly asked me to leave the "legal, laws of the land" concept out of the debate--but it would seem you are bothered because you may be used to a literal or "legal" view of the Bible yourself.

I have a question for you. If there is no room for mercy in God's heaven to the point that children (or an innocent adult) go to Hell is that a heaven you would even want?

TETENAL · Jul 30, 2006, 06:53 AM

Read about Limbus Infantium.

The definite answer is that babies definitely do not go to hell. The question is just whether they go to heaven or not.

Kevin · Jul 30, 2006, 08:04 AM

Age of accountability. The answer is no.

For example. All aborted babies go to heaven.

The only GOOD thing about the act.

Cody Dawg · Jul 30, 2006, 08:47 AM

I used to be a Catholic and some of their ideas (Catholicism) are just stupid and wrong. (I have a Jewish side in my family and I tend to see things right down the middle.)

The entire idea of Limbo, where babies, for example, go to a neutral wasteland that is not heaven.

The problem with Catholicism is that it is based on fear and punishment.

1. Die with original sin on your soul as a baby and go to Limbo.
2. Die with a mortal sin on your soul and if you don't confess it away to a priest before you die (it's not good enough to pray and say, "I'm sorry God please forgive me,") and you go to hell.
3. You have to confess your sins in order to be forgiven completely.
4. You have to be baptized to get into heaven - which is a huge rigamarole
5. You have to be confirmed to fully realize God

I could go on and on.

Same thing with hard core Christianity. I have a friend who maintains that unless people accept Christ into their hearts and ask for forgiveness then they are going to hell. No ands, its, or buts about it. Just going straight to hell. Ask him, "Well, what happens to gentle tribes of people living in the Amazon who have never done anything wrong to anyone and they die?" His answer is, "There is no question. They are not going to heaven. They have not accepted Christ into their lives." When you point out that there is no WAY that they COULD know about Christ he doesn't care. He insists that they're going to hell.

That is the problem with Christianity: When it becomes a belief system where people are punished through no fault(s) of their own.

Doofy · Jul 30, 2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I have a friend who maintains that unless people accept Christ into their hearts and ask for forgiveness then they are going to hell. No ands, its, or buts about it. Just going straight to hell. Ask him, "Well, what happens to gentle tribes of people living in the Amazon who have never done anything wrong to anyone and they die?" His answer is, "There is no question. They are not going to heaven. They have not accepted Christ into their lives." When you point out that there is no WAY that they COULD know about Christ he doesn't care. He insists that they're going to hell.

Sorry Cody, but your friend is an idiot.

If those people haven't even heard about Jesus, and thus can't accept Him into their lives, there's no way they're going to Hell. Going downstairs is based around the rejection of Christ under your own free will. To go to Hell, one must first have had the opportunity to reject.

OSX Abuser · Jul 30, 2006, 12:46 PM

If the baby has not accepted God as his/her savior then straight to hell you go.
Do you not have to accept God and Jesus to get into the kingdom of heaven??

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 01:05 PM

If you ask me, this is one of the big problems with the popular conception of Hell. You are forced to accept that people you know and love, people you know are fundamentally good folks with whom you like to associate, are going to be tortured for all eternity by supposedly loving being because they did not guess right at the religious lottery. It creates an unhealthy cognitive dissonance.

Cody Dawg · Jul 30, 2006, 01:08 PM

Doofy:

I agree that he's an idiot.

I went out with him. On the second date he launched into a Mel Gibson-esque tirade about Christianity and I asked him about indians in the jungle who are good people and don't harm others and heaven and hell and he said that they go to hell.

I disagreed vehemently. He tried to argue with me.

His name is Tim and I have to say that Tim is the biggest hypocrite that I know - Christian or otherwise.

Athens · Jul 30, 2006, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Okay, it's Sunday. Need a bible study lesson. Just wondering if babies, fetuses, and embryos go to heaven based on the Bible. According to the Bible, all humans are born with Original Sin. So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

of course you have to beleive in heaven and hell in the first place. Me, when we die we die thats it end of story.

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 01:24 PM

I thought Cody was married.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 30, 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

For example. All aborted babies go to heaven.

The only GOOD thing about the act.

Lots of interesting things to ponder here.

What about spontaneous abortions or miscarriages? Do they go to heaven?
They died because of some fault not related to their parents actions so
maybe they died because God wanted them dead? I mean, I think it is safe
to assume that if God wanted all babies to live then we wouldn't have these
types of pre-birth deaths on the part of babies. So maybe God doesn't want
those kinds of aborted babies to go to heaven. Maybe he wants only the
artifically occuring aborted babies to go to heaven and the naturally occuring
aborted babies is God's way of telling a family he is sending their baby to Hell.

Cody Dawg · Jul 30, 2006, 01:52 PM

I am married.

I dated that guy a long long time ago.

I still talk to him once in a while via email, but that doesn't change the fact that I think he's a loser Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn style.

hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

of course you have to beleive in heaven and hell in the first place. Me, when we die we die thats it end of story.

Of course. That's why I mention according to the bible.

Dark Helmet · Jul 30, 2006, 03:03 PM

What original sin are we born with? Is it cuz you were in contact with an evil vagina?

hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Doofy:

On the second date he launched into a Mel Gibson-esque tirade about Christianity and I asked him about indians in the jungle who are good people and don't harm others and heaven and hell and he said that they go to hell.

I share similar thoughts. What if I was an Indian (Native American) who live 1000 years ago, before Christianity came to America. How would I choose to accept the Christian God when I know nothing of him. Does that mean I was born destine to go to hell? So where is the free will to accept the Christian God and take your place next to him in Heaven?

greenamp · Jul 30, 2006, 03:23 PM

No, their souls are recycled and put into other babies.

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

What original sin are we born with? Is it cuz you were in contact with an evil vagina?

Erm…the original sin is Adam's sin that got us cast out of Eden.

Dakar · Jul 30, 2006, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Erm…the original sin is Adam's sin that got us cast out of Eden.

So its because a long ago ancestor was in touch with Eve's evil vagina.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 30, 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

So its because a long ago ancestor was in touch with Eve's evil vagina.

Yup. In most Christian faiths the vagina is, was, (and always) will be a Bad Thing.™

greenG4 · Jul 30, 2006, 04:38 PM

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

This implies you must be able to reject Him to be able to end up in spiritual death (Hell). Therefore, a child (or adult with the mind of a child) or someone who has NEVER heard of Jesus won't be tossed off into Hell just beacuse.

hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by greenG4

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

This implies you must be able to reject Him to be able to end up in spiritual death (Hell). Therefore, a child (or adult with the mind of a child) or someone who has NEVER heard of Jesus won't be tossed off into Hell just beacuse.

So does that mean if I was a native american living in the year 1000, I would go to heaven because I know nothing of the Christian God and therefore cannot reject Him?

BRussell · Jul 30, 2006, 04:48 PM

In response to this question - heck, in response to lots of questions - I would just like to hear Christians say "I don't know." It's the certainty with which some people approach these issues that bothers me, on either side of this particular issue. We're talking about mystical, spiritual concepts that can't be handled simply by googling Bible verses or using wikipedia.

greenG4 · Jul 30, 2006, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

In response to this question - heck, in response to lots of questions - I would just like to hear Christians say "I don't know." It's the certainty with which some people approach these issues that bothers me, on either side of this particular issue. We're talking about mystical, spiritual concepts that can't be handled simply by googling Bible verses or using wikipedia.

I don't usually need to "google" bible verses. I know my Bible pretty well.

ironknee · Jul 30, 2006, 05:48 PM

the age of accountability right?

say around the age of, what, 10? 11? 12?

so at that age when one is still a child and have no idea what life is about, is in charge of your ETERNAL life??

another, oops i didn't think of that bible loophole

greenG4 · Jul 30, 2006, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

So does that mean if I was a native american living in the year 1000, I would go to heaven because I know nothing of the Christian God and therefore cannot reject Him?

I would think so. Also, remember that God knows all things. He knows if the person that dies w/out hearing about Jesus would have accpeted Him if given the chance. So, I think he would go off of that. That is conjecture on my part-I don't really know (a-hem:BRussell)

Dark Helmet · Jul 30, 2006, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Yup. In most Christian faiths the vagina is, was, (and always) will be a Bad Thing.™

Somehow me being gay and avoiding the evil vagina is actually worse though.

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

So its because a long ago ancestor was in touch with Eve's evil vagina.

I'm guessing you know this, but just for everybody's reference, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a vagina.

Kevin · Jul 30, 2006, 07:10 PM

Some of you really need to grow up.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 30, 2006, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Some of you really need to grow up.

Yeah, they do. So, how about you answer an adult question. I posed it to you earlier but you must hae over-looked it among all the child rantings. So, here it is again. It's a pretty thorny theological question.

Originally Posted by Kevin

For example. All aborted babies go to heaven.

The only GOOD thing about the act.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Lots of interesting things to ponder here.

What about spontaneous abortions or miscarriages? Do they go to heaven?
They died because of some fault not related to their parents actions so
maybe they died because God wanted them dead? I mean, I think it is safe
to assume that if God wanted all babies to live then we wouldn't have these
types of pre-birth deaths on the part of babies. So maybe God doesn't want
those kinds of aborted babies to go to heaven. Maybe he wants only the
artifically occuring aborted babies to go to heaven and the naturally occuring
aborted babies is God's way of telling a family he is sending their baby to Hell.

Kevin · Jul 30, 2006, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Yeah, they do. So, how about you answer an adult question. I posed it to you earlier but you must hae over-looked it among all the child rantings. So, here it is again. It's a pretty thorny theological question.

I didn't answer it, because it too was a insincere post.

You have shown you don't really care what the truth is in the past. And for the most part all you do is bash.

So why is now any different dc?

dcmacdaddy · Jul 30, 2006, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I didn't answer it, because it too was a insincere post.

You have shown you don't really care what the truth is in the past. And for the most part all you do is bash.

So why is now any different dc?

Umm, I wasn't asking for "the truth" as if you or any other human could provide insight into Gods' mind. I *was* asking you to speculate about the reasons why babies that were spontaneously abroted might or might not go to heaven. So, if you don't want to speculate about it, that is fine; Just say so. But ignoring a question by issuing a personal attack on the questioner is not a good way to debate a subject.

hyteckit · Jul 30, 2006, 07:31 PM

Man, I'm trying to get an honest answer and all those childish talk about evil vaginas ain't helping. If you guys want to talk about evil vaginas, you guys can come over to my place and have discusion about it over a few cans of beer and watch the vagina monologue.

BRussell · Jul 30, 2006, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by greenG4

I would think so. Also, remember that God knows all things. He knows if the person that dies w/out hearing about Jesus would have accpeted Him if given the chance. So, I think he would go off of that. That is conjecture on my part-I don't really know (a-hem:BRussell)

I was just reading through the thread, and seeing all kinds of posts like "a baby will definitely go to heaven" as if it's some truth that we can know, like reading a state's criminal code, and it just struck me as very surreal.

Carry on.

Robert A.M. Stephens · Jul 30, 2006, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Okay, it's Sunday. Need a bible study lesson. Just wondering if babies, fetuses, and embryos go to heaven based on the Bible. According to the Bible, all humans are born with Original Sin. So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

I have wrestled with this for the 34 years I've been a Christian and the only and best thing I've found and come up with Biblically is they fall like the rest of us; under Predesentation. However, as a human being with flesh nature on one side, and the other being saved, it is one of the great questions I have, if it is otherwise since to ponder such for me is simply heartbreaking. Beyond that, it is also one of the things I simply cannot ponder well at all nor have I found a clear cut answer.

Robert

Dakar · Jul 30, 2006, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm guessing you know this, but just for everybody's reference, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a vagina.

Hence, the wink.

Chuckit · Jul 30, 2006, 09:52 PM

Yeah, but I wasn't sure other people got it.

Dark Helmet · Jul 30, 2006, 10:05 PM

Do babies grow up in heaven or are they abortions forever?

Dakar · Jul 30, 2006, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Yeah, but I wasn't sure other people got it.

Ooooh. Gotcha.

Kr0nos · Jul 31, 2006, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

So I'm guessing babies go to hell.

No, they don't. And neither is anybody else.

I can't believe that grown-ups are still discussing this sorta stuff.

ink · Jul 31, 2006, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by ironknee

the age of accountability right?

say around the age of, what, 10? 11? 12?

so at that age when one is still a child and have no idea what life is about, is in charge of your ETERNAL life??

another, oops i didn't think of that bible loophole

FYI, Mormons lock the age in at 8 because God told Joseph Smith so.

That, and it's probably easy to convince an 8-year-old to be baptized.

Uriel · Jul 31, 2006, 01:55 AM

I know I"m not the typical "christian", however I believe that babies do go to heaven. Where is the age cutoff? I don't know, I don't really know how it would help me.

I think the whole the issue of "who's in and who's out" of heaven, for me as a christian, seems to be missing the point. To me it seems to be more of an issue of "where is this person spirtually and how can I help them move forward?". In my opinion, it's only God who knows the true heart of the most "spiritual person" to the most devout hindu. It isn't my place to figure out who's in the group, but it IS my job to love everyone like Christ and to help them grow closer to God.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 02:00 AM

Wow, Mormons listen to their prophets? What a bunch of kooks. Good thing other Christians don't pay attention to the writings of prophets.

Uriel · Jul 31, 2006, 02:22 AM

the age of accountability right?

say around the age of, what, 10? 11? 12?

so at that age when one is still a child and have no idea what life is about, is in charge of your ETERNAL life??

another, oops i didn't think of that bible loophole

I agree, this is a bad loophole. However, to label it a "bible" loophole is probably something I would more label a "religion" loophole. The bible really doesn't say "the age of accountability" or whatever, so I wouldn't attribute the additions of religious rules created by other men to the fault of the bible.