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besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 10:08 AM

I'm agnostic, but I do like to learn new things about different religions.

I'm quite turned off by Christianity and its bloody history, as I am religions (like Christiantiy) that help promote a sense of self-righteousness leading to violent acts (which are, IMHO, ironically, sin). While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

At any rate, certainly Buddism is one of the more peaceful religions in history, I've always been interested in learning more about Buddism. But now I have a new religion that has sparked my interest and that is the Bahai faith. Here is the Wikipedia summary of its central beliefs:

"The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or tradition; the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national; the harmony which must exist between religion and science; the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme goal of all mankind—these stand out as the essential elements [which Bahá'u'lláh proclaimed]."[16]

If any of what I have written has resonated with you, what other religions interest you for similar reasons? WHat do you feel have been some of the more peaceful and constructive religions in the course of history?

Stradlater · Jul 31, 2006, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm quite turned off by Christianity and its bloody history, as I am religions (like Christiantiy) that help promote a sense of self-righteousness leading to violent acts (which are, IMHO, ironically, sin). While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

Discussion's never going to be civil with ignorant provocation such as this. Christianity is a lot more diversified than you seem to think.

And again (forum record), I am agnostic.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2006, 02:07 PM

Bahá'í is the religion for atheists, agnostics, lefties and hippies, so:

Over rocks and trees and sand
Soaring over cliffs
And gently floating down to land
She proudly lifts her voice
To sound her mating call
And soon her mate responds by singing
Caw Caw Caw
Come with me

Lesbian Seagull,
Settle down and rest with me

Fly with me lesbian seagull

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Discussion's never going to be civil with ignorant provocation such as this. Christianity is a lot more diversified than you seem to think.

And again (forum record), I am agnostic.

It's not provocation, its my experience. As far as I'm concerned, all discussion about religion cannot be proven scientifically, it's all about experience and personal opinion. I was simply sharing my own, to provide what I felt was necessary background.

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Bahá'í is the religion for atheists, agnostics, lefties and hippies, so:

Over rocks and trees and sand
Soaring over cliffs
And gently floating down to land
She proudly lifts her voice
To sound her mating call
And soon her mate responds by singing
Caw Caw Caw
Come with me

Lesbian Seagull,
Settle down and rest with me

Fly with me lesbian seagull

Okay hippy vegan...

I can play the label assigning game too!

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Bahá'í is the religion for atheists, agnostics, lefties and hippies

I thought that was Unitarian Universalism.

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 02:12 PM

Hey, on many days I'd rather be a hippy agnostic lefty hippy than a conservative Christian like so many of those hypocritical small minded Christian Coalition types.

ironknee · Jul 31, 2006, 02:19 PM

thank jeebus steve jobs is not a righty christian nut job

Shaddim · Jul 31, 2006, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I thought that was Unitarian Universalism.

I attend a UU church, and I'm not atheist, agnostic, a lefty, or a hippy.

So much for the stereotypes in this thread...

Doofy · Jul 31, 2006, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I thought that was Unitarian Universalism.

Yeah. Same thing basically. In essence.

BRussell · Jul 31, 2006, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

At any rate, certainly Buddism is one of the more peaceful religions in history, I've always been interested in learning more about Buddism.

Are you sure about that? Isn't that Aum Shinrikyo terrorist group Buddhist?

It's hard to come up with a more peaceful set of texts than the original texts of Christianity - the Gospels. There certainly has been a lot of violence associated with Christianity, and Islam. But perhaps when religions have political power is when they become less than peaceful?

PacHead · Jul 31, 2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

the Gospels. There certainly has been a lot of violence associated with Christianity, and Islam.

It's funny that it took more than ten posts before somebody mentioned the most violent and backwards religion in the world today.

Doofy · Jul 31, 2006, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's hard to come up with a more peaceful set of texts than the original texts of Christianity - the Gospels. There certainly has been a lot of violence associated with Christianity, and Islam. But perhaps when religions have political power is when they become less than peaceful?

One must disassociate religions with the men who profess to follow them and simultaneously seek political power. There's only one religion which can't be separated in such a manner. All the rest, well hey it's human nature you're looking at, not the religion itself.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Are you sure about that? Isn't that Aum Shinrikyo terrorist group Buddhist?

Kindasorta. As I understand it, like many Japanese religions, it's a mishmash of traditions.

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's hard to come up with a more peaceful set of texts than the original texts of Christianity - the Gospels. There certainly has been a lot of violence associated with Christianity, and Islam. But perhaps when religions have political power is when they become less than peaceful?

Neither Christianity nor Islam was very peaceful to begin with (Jesus even explicitly denied that he intended to bring peace). They're both rather feisty religions, though Islam more so.

evfish84 · 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Kindasorta. As I understand it, like many Japanese religions, it's a mishmash of traditions.

Neither Christianity nor Islam was very peaceful to begin with (Jesus even explicitly denied that he intended to bring peace). They're both rather feisty religions, though Islam more so.

I think militant Islam is perhaps the only mainstream religion that hasn't mellowed out some over the centuries.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 02:49 PM

My history may just be incomplete, but it seems like Islam kind of mellowed out (relatively speaking) for a while and then got worse again, or at least didn't continue to mellow with the rest of the world.

BRussell · Jul 31, 2006, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Neither Christianity nor Islam was very peaceful to begin with (Jesus even explicitly denied that he intended to bring peace). They're both rather feisty religions, though Islam more so.

I strongly disagree about Christianity. You can find a few statements about "bringing the sword," but that stands in contrast to the majority of lessons, and the main message - do unto others, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and so on.

I believe that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. He believed the world was going to end in his lifetime, and that comes out in two ways: 1) His (rare) references to "bringing the sword," and 2) his attempt to describe what the new life would be like - peace and equality, etc.

But I also believe the primary, deeper message of Christianity is one of the most humanistic of any religion, that a man can be inhumanely executed by a faceless, powerful, oppressor, and still ultimately come out more powerful.

Just IMO.

Chuckit · 03:28 PM

Jesus said his mission was to turn brother against brother. He actually did this, bitterly dividing his community to the point where his peers repeatedly tried and eventually succeeded in killing him. Though he didn't fight back, he did nothing to try and stop his enemies, and even provoked them on several occasions — he basically just said, "Bring it, bitches." His disciples continued the tradition of going out, preaching strongly and getting themselves killed in the process. While their message was ultimately not hateful or violent, it was not exactly peaceful either. It was quite forceful.

Shaddim · Jul 31, 2006, 04:16 PM

"Then said he unto them, but now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip, and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, and he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

"And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Self-defense = good
Aggression = bad

Nicko · Jul 31, 2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

"Then said he unto them, but now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip, and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, and he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

"And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Self-defense = good
Aggression = bad

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

'nuff said.

BRussell · Jul 31, 2006, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Jesus said his mission was to turn brother against brother. He actually did this, bitterly dividing his community to the point where his peers repeatedly tried and eventually succeeded in killing him. Though he didn't fight back, he did nothing to try and stop his enemies, and even provoked them on several occasions — he basically just said, "Bring it, bitches." His disciples continued the tradition of going out, preaching strongly and getting themselves killed in the process. While their message was ultimately not hateful or violent, it was not exactly peaceful either. It was quite forceful.

They weren't killed because they were violent, they were killed because they were atheists and blasphemers and they lived in a less-than-liberal time.

Again, the only way you could conclude that is the message of Christianity is to cherry-pick quotes. The overall message is radically non-violent.

Part of the problem is that we have only fragments of Jesus, and I have no doubt he was a much more complex person than the Gospels convey. They just give us little glimpses into that. But still, if you just look at the texts, the message is very clear and your characterization, Chuckit, is off the mark.

itai195 · Jul 31, 2006, 04:30 PM

Sure seemed violent at the temple with those money lenders

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

They weren't killed because they were violent

I think you need to reread my post.

Shaddim · Jul 31, 2006, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nicko

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

'nuff said.

I despise most of the actions of RCC also, what's your point? Despite their clamor, they aren't the seat of Christianity (nor even the oldest church, for that matter). In fact, during the Crusades, The RCC killed multitudes of Christians along with the "savage Moors". They didn't discriminate when it came to carnage throughout those centuries.

So, in short, most Christian churches have never taken up arms to oppress anyone, and usually have found themselves on the receiving end of the Rome's ire.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 04:46 PM

The Protestants didn't exactly give kisses and puppies to the Catholics either.

Shaddim · Jul 31, 2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by itai195

Sure seemed violent at the temple with those money lenders

They pressed his buttons by scamming the people on holy ground. It's was quite understandable.

Shaddim · Jul 31, 2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The Protestants didn't exactly give kisses and puppies to the Catholics either.

Which time?

Seriously though, violence is part of human nature, but it's not Christian doctrine.

"Be not conformed of this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Rumor · Jul 31, 2006, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

Nicko · Jul 31, 2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Which time?

Seriously though, violence is part of human nature, but it's not Christian doctrine.

And since all religions are inventions of humans, they are all capable of promoting violence.

Robert A.M. Stephens · Jul 31, 2006, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Jesus said his mission was to turn brother against brother. He actually did this, bitterly dividing his community to the point where his peers repeatedly tried and eventually succeeded in killing him. Though he didn't fight back, he did nothing to try and stop his enemies, and even provoked them on several occasions — he basically just said, "Bring it, bitches." His disciples continued the tradition of going out, preaching strongly and getting themselves killed in the process. While their message was ultimately not hateful or violent, it was not exactly peaceful either. It was quite forceful.

Hilarious BS. Sorry.

davesimondotcom · Jul 31, 2006, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Bahá'í is the religion for atheists, agnostics, lefties and hippies, so:

Except for that whole not liking homosexuality thing...

Chuckit · 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Robert A.M. Stephens

Hilarious BS. Sorry.

Your persuasive use of evidence and logic has swayed me, Robert.

If there are any points in my point you'd like to dispute, you are free to do so.

BRussell · Jul 31, 2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I think you need to reread my post.

I've read them all, and I think you can make a point here and there, but it doesn't add up to the conclusion that "Christianity wasn't very peaceful to begin with."

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 06:05 PM

You somehow wound up arguing "They weren't killed because they were violent" in response to a post where I explicitly said the same thing. Either you quoted the wrong post or you didn't read very carefully.

Then again, you also said that Christians were killed because they were atheists, so I'm kind of confused anyway…

Face Ache · Jul 31, 2006, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by mohammad

Originally Posted by Jesus

That's not what I meant and you know it. Would you fanboys please stop twisting my words to suit your own agenda.

You think you've got problems?!

Guys! Give up already!

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 06:31 PM

Wasn't Islam one of the more peaceful religions way back in the day?

I wonder what stirred that hornet's nest?

Doofy · Jul 31, 2006, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Wasn't Islam one of the more peaceful religions way back in the day?

No. It was invented by a warmongering terrorist. How could it ever be peaceful?

Doofy · Jul 31, 2006, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Jesus said his mission was to turn brother against brother. He actually did this, bitterly dividing his community to the point where his peers repeatedly tried and eventually succeeded in killing him. Though he didn't fight back, he did nothing to try and stop his enemies, and even provoked them on several occasions — he basically just said, "Bring it, bitches." His disciples continued the tradition of going out, preaching strongly and getting themselves killed in the process. While their message was ultimately not hateful or violent, it was not exactly peaceful either. It was quite forceful.

What Jesus was on about when He said that was basically:
"Listen, at some point there's going to be loads of atheist hippies and feminists and socialists and what have you who don't like the message I'm giving you. So they will feed you to lions and post endless threads on MacNN taunting you and other such heinous stuff. Thus, brother will be set against brother. With the Democrats starting it."

He wasn't on about Christians killing anyone. But He knew that a lot of folk wouldn't like His followers and that the aggro wouldn't be far behind them.

MinM · Jul 31, 2006, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Discussion's never going to be civil with ignorant provocation such as this.

But see, ignorant provocation is kind of besson's thing...

Sky Captain · Jul 31, 2006, 07:36 PM

I'm quite turned off by Islam and its bloody history, as I am religions (like Islam) that help promote a sense of self-righteousness leading to violent acts (which are, IMHO, ironically, sin). While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

I myself am pantheist.
Some Christian sects have the Virgin Mary as an idol, the muslims have the Kaaba, Al-hajar.(ooo, an idol)
There is no need to "worship" the image or icon of an all knowing being.
As we are all part of this intity. Everything is part of the entity. Everything.

Pendergast · Jul 31, 2006, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I attend a UU church, and I'm not atheist, agnostic, a lefty, or a hippy.

So much for the stereotypes in this thread...

Woaw. You are so judgmental!

hey!_Zeus · Jul 31, 2006, 07:38 PM

"Freethinkers"

greenG4 · Jul 31, 2006, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by itai195

Sure seemed violent at the temple with those money lenders

An example of Jesus hating "religion." The God of Christianity isn't about region, He's about having a relationship with who He created,

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I'm quite turned off by Islam and its bloody history, as I am religions (like Islam) that help promote a sense of self-righteousness leading to violent acts (which are, IMHO, ironically, sin). While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

I myself am pantheist.
Some Christian sects have the Virgin Mary as an idol, the muslims have the Kaaba, Al-hajar.(ooo, an idol)
There is no need to "worship" the image or icon of an all knowing being.
As we are all part of this intity. Everything is part of the entity. Everything.

What about Islam was violent prior to about two thirds of this century or so?

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. It was invented by a warmongering terrorist. How could it ever be peaceful?

Who was that?

besson3c · Jul 31, 2006, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by MinM

But see, ignorant provocation is kind of besson's thing...

You smell.

greenG4 · Jul 31, 2006, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Who was that?

There was a thread about how Mohammed was basically a sick evil man. This was supported by a number of former Muslims. (Am I remembering this right?) That might have been what he was referring to.

lpkmckenna · Jul 31, 2006, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm agnostic, but I do like to learn new things about different religions.

I'm quite turned off by Christianity and its bloody history, as I am religions (like Christiantiy) that help promote a sense of self-righteousness leading to violent acts (which are, IMHO, ironically, sin). While I don't feel that any religion is inherently violent and hypocritical, it is hard to jump on board when so many religious leaders are complete asshats, and prominent self-proclaimed members are absolute hypocrits and offensive to me.

At any rate, certainly Buddism is one of the more peaceful religions in history, I've always been interested in learning more about Buddism. But now I have a new religion that has sparked my interest and that is the Bahai faith.

If any of what I have written has resonated with you, what other religions interest you for similar reasons? WHat do you feel have been some of the more peaceful and constructive religions in the course of history?

Bahai is a bastardization of religions. Attempting to merge Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammed into a single religion is about as sensible as trying to merge Karl Marx, David Hume, and Ayn Rand into a single philosophy. You cannot merge mutually exclusive concepts.

Besides, Bahai is just as puritanical as any other religion: no alcohol, no gambling, no non-marital sex, no long hair for men (seriously).

Most forms of Buddhism are also bastardizations, Tibetan Buddhism being the worst. (It amazes me that a man as wise as the Buddha couldn't see that his movement would unravel into a dozen schools in the absence of a written text by him.)

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 09:25 PM

Mohammed was a warmonger, but so were a lot of the early Old Testament prophets. The Israelites wiped out most of the native peoples in their land.

Chuckit · Jul 31, 2006, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

(It amazes me that a man as wise as the Buddha couldn't see that his movement would unravel into a dozen schools in the absence of a written text by him.)

The Buddha didn't believe words had the power to enlighten people. I think he realized that, like Christianity, it would splinter into a thousand schools even with a standard text as long as there were unenlightened people reading it.