[Sky Captain]

Well it's not limited to Catholic preists

[Kevin]

Yup, he can't help it he was born that way.
Right?

[Sky Captain]

Shiiit.
We have places to keep people like him.
We call them cemetaries.

But it's his right.

[Kevin]

Sky it's called the slippery slope.

[Sky Captain]

From HERE

Back in June, DiStasio encountered an inquiring team of Lakewood Observers, who quickly deconstructed a pathogenic myth disguised as a utopian educational program. DiStasio was using alternative charter school pedagogy to mask a perverted agenda. With a charter school and sanctuary in mind, DiStasio said he wanted to create a safe place "where a child can point at a man's penis and say 'I want that', without being ridiculed by society [as victim]."

He aligns himself as a VICTIM.

[Y3a]

a 55 gallon drum of acid is just the place for someone like him.

[Sky Captain]

I can just see the ACLU taking his case.
Arguing his civil rights are being violated.

[Chuckit]

I don't think many children would point at a man's penis and say, "I want that."

[placebo1969]

I wonder if there is anyone who would defend this behavior? I sure the hell hope not, but you never can tell. I've worked with sex offenders (both juvenile and adult) for years and they have the highest recidivism rates.

[Rumor]

Great, now I'll have to find something else to make fun of the Catholics with.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yup, he can't help it he was born that way.
Right?

explain that kevin

do you think this slimebag chose to be like that?

i think you are confusing this and homosexuals

molestation is all about power and control. this piece of shite probably got molested himself

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I can just see the ACLU taking his case.
Arguing his civil rights are being violated.

I don't see it. The ACLU recognizes that children also have rights.

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Typical for this previaling darkness era.

10 pounds of Pentex and Naptha with 20 gallons of napalm would take care of that.

I am love.

[Kerrigan]

I've read that paedophilia is more of a bizarre exercise in power and control than it is a legitimate sexual "orientation" (woah I see you wrote the same thing ironknee, coincidence!)

Probably the result of a person choosing to repress his or her own homosexuality.

[Chuckit]

I've read that people make up a lot of psychological "facts."

[Kerrigan]

Are you gonna say the same thing about ironknee, who stated the same thing as me but just drew a different conclusion? Or are you going to continue to affect wit?

And BTW, I've "read" that you Californians don't know how to read anyways

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sky it's called the slippery slope.

Kevin, you're right, the rank and file lefties are lining up behind molestors as we speak.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Kevin, you're right, the rank and file lefties are lining up behind molestors as we speak.

Uh, who?

[Kerrigan]

If conservatives like me start saying that paedophilia is a character flaw rather than a issue of victimization, then Chuckit et al will automatically take an antithetical stance and start acting like this paedo is a victim of discrimination.

This is evident in how I basically echoed what ironknee said but still, in a kneejerk reaction I was opposed simply because I'm a conservative.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If conservatives like me start saying that paedophilia is a character flaw rather than a issue of victimization, then Chuckit et al will automatically take an antithetical stance and start acting like this paedo is a victim of discrimination.

This is evident in how I basically echoed what ironknee said but still, in a kneejerk reaction I was opposed simply because I'm a conservative.

Get a grip on reality.

Chuckit wasn't "lining up behind pedophiles," and no other "lefties" on this board are gonna, either.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I've read that paedophilia is more of a bizarre exercise in power and control

Probably. Sexual assault is all about power.

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

...than it is a legitimate sexual "orientation"

No legitimate group believes this. Even if it became accepted that paedophiles were born with their impulses, psychologists/psychiatrists are not going to call these impulses "legitimate."

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Probably the result of a person choosing to repress his or her own homosexuality.

Probably not. Neurological malformation or damage is the likely culprit.

[Kerrigan]

Probably not. Neurological malformation or damage is the likely culprit.

So you think it isn't their fault?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

So you think it isn't their fault?

First, the article says this guy has a religion that encourages sex with young boys. As far as I can tell, it isn't about claiming some kind of insanity.

Second, this question of whether criminals, including child molesters, are "at fault" is interesting to me. I don't think the difference between a child molester and a non-molester is simply will-power. You and I could never do the kinds of things described in that article because we have no desire and because we have empathy etc., not because we think about it but just choose not to do it.

Right?

There IS, in my opinion, a predisposition, either genetic or environmental, for criminal behavior, and for everything people do. I don't buy the idea that everyone has equal pre-dispositions but some people just choose to act bad and become criminals and others choose to be good.

But what are the implications of this belief? It doesn't mean I think dangerous criminals should be released. But I see imprisonment as a matter of public safety, secondarily about deterrence, and not at all about retribution. This individual has a clear proclivity to harm people, and the public should therefore be protected from him. I believe that imprisonment of dangerous criminals is very good public policy. On the other hand, I don't believe Andrea Yates is any danger to the public whatsoever, and should be treated and kept a watch over, but not imprisoned (as she is basically going to be for most of her life, despite being found not guilty).

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

So you think it isn't their fault?

That's a pretty good question. I don't really know. Determining fault when dealing with neurological and/or psychological problems is tricky.

I'm no doctor, but I would guess that at least two separate psychological phenomenon are at work in the mind of a paedophile:

sociopath: inability to feel guilt or empathy.
fetishism: sexual feeling for non-sexual things, in this case, children.

Can the paedophile be considered morally at fault for not feeling empathy, or for having feelings regarding children? I doubt anyone can be held morally at fault for any feelings. For the most part, we cannot directly control our feelings.

Of course, it's really the behaviour that's a concern, right? We should all be able to control our behaviour, right? Maybe.

Is a schizophrenic "at fault" for talking to himself?
Is a borderline personality "at fault" for killing herself?
Is the autistic man "at fault" because he can't look you in the eye?
Is the AHDH person "at fault" because he can't sit still?

These are all behaviours, right? Certainly we should expect they still have "free will," right?

I don't really have the answers to these questions. I just don't know how the thought/emotion/action patterns work in the mind of these people. And so it is with paedophiles.

----

There seems to be a consensus regarding sociopaths and paedophiles: they cannot be cured. Psychiatrists now generally regard these two groups as "lost causes." Society can only hope to identify and incarcerate them (prison or hospital, doesn't really matter).

The issue of fault is a dead end. The only issue is protecting society.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Are you gonna say the same thing about ironknee, who stated the same thing as me but just drew a different conclusion? Or are you going to continue to affect wit?

He made a more narrow claim — that sexual assault is about control. There is a difference between predilection and rape. By your logic, being straight is about control because straight sexual assault is about power and control.

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

And BTW, I've "read" that you Californians don't know how to read anyways

You heard right. But I'm not a native Californian, so nyah.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I've read that paedophilia is more of a bizarre exercise in power and control than it is a legitimate sexual "orientation" (woah I see you wrote the same thing ironknee, coincidence!)

Probably the result of a person choosing to repress his or her own homosexuality.

rock on...we can prove there is a middle ground for understanding

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

I'm no doctor, but I would guess that at least two separate psychological phenomenon are at work in the mind of a paedophile:

sociopath: inability to feel guilt or empathy.
fetishism: sexual feeling for non-sexual things, in this case, children.

Sorry for butting in up there.

You have an interesting theory, but I think sometimes a pedophile can be just a pedophile, not necessarily anything else. In this case, it is hard to believe that he could prey on these kids with developmental disorders without being a psychopath too though. Not sure about the fetishism thing - I believe fetishism is always about objects, not people.

There seems to be a consensus regarding sociopaths and paedophiles: they cannot be cured. Psychiatrists now generally regard these two groups as "lost causes." Society can only hope to identify and incarcerate them (prison or hospital, doesn't really matter).

I think you're right, especially with sociopaths. There are some studies showing success with castration. Most people the media label as "pedophiles" aren't really pedophiles, just child molesters, and just like any other criminal. No "cure" is applicable, and they probably have no higher recidivism rates than other types of criminals. It's pretty easy to tell the difference, too: Pedophiles go after ~12-yr-old boys, and regular child molesters tend to go after girls, among other differences.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

He made a more narrow claim — that sexual assault is about control. There is a difference between predilection and rape. By your logic, being straight is about control because straight sexual assault is about power and control.

No, his point - which is true - is that paedophilia is a form of rape, not of sexual orientation.


Incidentally, speaking of "fault" is completely useless.

Explaining where a tendency comes from is not.

Also, there is a fundamental - and very important - difference between being able to explain something, and excusing it.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by analogika

No, his point - which is true - is that paedophilia is a form of rape, not of sexual orientation.

An "orientation" is exactly what it is. It is possible for pedophiles to never engage in illegal activity, they just fantasize and look at porn (OK, the porn might be illegal). The definition of a pedophile is someone who has fantasies and urges about young children, it is not defined by the act, despite how the term is used in the media. Conversely, most child molesters are not pedophiles, they're just rapists who have chosen children, usually because they're easier targets than adults. These men probably fantasize about women, and have had sexual relations with a woman, but are just indiscriminate about their targets.

Incidentally, speaking of "fault" is completely useless.

Explaining where a tendency comes from is not.

Also, there is a fundamental - and very important - difference between being able to explain something, and excusing it.

Yes, thank you.

[DBursey]

Conversely, most child molesters are not pedophiles, they're just rapists who have chosen children, usually because they're easier targets than adults. These men probably fantasize about women, and have had sexual relations with a woman, but are just indiscriminate about their targets.

There's a notion I'd not think to lend much credibility at all. Care to relate as to why I might?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by DBursey

There's a notion I'd not think to lend much credibility at all. Care to relate as to why I might?

It's standard stuff that doesn't get through because the term 'pedophile' is used incorrectly in the popular media. Read anything beyond news media reports, and you'll see it. Wikipedia entry on Pedophilia:

Occurrence in child sex offenders
A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is, despite all medical definitions, commonly assumed to be a pedophile, and referred to as such; however, there may be other motivations for the crime[11] (such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner[24]), much as adult rape can have non-sexual reasons. Thus, child sexual abuse alone may or may not be an indicator that its perpetrator is a pedophile; most perpetrators of it are in fact not primarily interested in children.[25]
Those who have committed sexual crimes against children, but do not meet the normal diagnosis criteria for pedophilia, are referred to as situational, opportunistic, or regressed offenders, whereas offenders primarily attracted toward children are called structured, preferential, or fixated pedophiles, as their orientation is fixed by the structure of their personality. It is estimated that only 2 to 10 percent of child sexual abuse perpetrators meet the regular criteria for pedophilia. (Kinsey-Report, Lautmann, Brongersma, Groth).
As noted by Abel, Mittleman, and Becker[26] (1985) and Ward et al. (1995), there are generally large characteristical distinctions between the two types of offenders. Situational offenders tend to offend at times of stress; have a later onset of offending; have fewer, often familial victims; and have a general preference for adult partners. Pedophilic offenders, however, often start offending at an early age; often have a large number of victims who are frequently extrafamilial; are more appetitively driven to offend; and have values or beliefs that strongly support an offense lifestyle.
Most cases of father-daughter incest are believed to involve fathers who are situational offenders, rather than pedophiles. [27]

Michael Jackson = Pedophile.
Richard Allen Davis (who raped and killed Polly Klaas) = not a pedophile.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If conservatives like me start saying that paedophilia is a character flaw rather than a issue of victimization...

No, it's a pathology and a crime.

Homosexuality, of course, is neither.

[Millennium]

In other words, this man wants a society where the people do not have the right to criticize him for his actions. I want the opposite: absolute right to criticize someone for their actions. Morality should not be the province of law, but the people must retain their right to speak and to criticize. If this man is so weak-minded that he cannot bear such criticism, then that is his problem and no one else's.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by analogika

No, his point - which is true - is that paedophilia is a form of rape, not of sexual orientation.

Then what do we call it when you think 12-year-olds are hot?

[analogika]

puberty?


BRussell already augmented and corrected my post.

[hyteckit]

You know that slippery slope. If you allow 14 year olds to get marry like in Texas, what's going to happen next? 12 or 10 year olds?

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by analogika

Incidentally, speaking of "fault" is completely useless.

Explaining where a tendency comes from is not.

Also, there is a fundamental - and very important - difference between being able to explain something, and excusing it.

Ya I agree, figuring out a way to identify the causes of paedophilia, and to prevent it, is a good thing. But trying to shift culpability from a rapist to a mysterious condition isn't useful at all.

[Sky Captain]

The causes usually are a genetic gefect. Just waiting to surface.
Identify the set of bad genes, terminate the pregnancy.

[Chuckit]

We gave up eugenics in the 1940s, dude.

[ironknee]

what about the victims? odds are some of them will grow up doing the same thing to others

it's a horrible cycle

[Sky Captain]

Or the eventuslly commit suicide.

[Macrobat]

Sounds the "The Church of One Glove and Sequined Socks" to me.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

You know that slippery slope. If you allow 14 year olds to get marry like in Texas, what's going to happen next? 12 or 10 year olds?

I think you mean Canada, not Texas.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

You know that slippery slope. If you allow 14 year olds to get marry like in Texas, what's going to happen next? 12 or 10 year olds?

6-year-olds, coming to a mosque near you soon.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy

6-year-olds, coming to a mosque near you soon.

Leave it to Doofy to post an irrelevant, anti-Muslim comment.

[Chuckit]

It seemed more like a joke than a comment.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Leave it to Doofy to post an irrelevant, anti-Muslim comment.

What's irrelevant about it? This whole thread is a discussion about age of consent in a multi-cultural, multi-religion, morally-relative society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederas..._Islamic_world

Oh, and I'm anti-islam, not anti-muslim.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It seemed more like a joke than a comment.

All Doofy comments are jokes. All Doofy jokes are comments.

[Chuckit]

Whoa.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy

What's irrelevant about it? This whole thread is a discussion about age of consent in a multi-cultural, multi-religion, morally-relative society.

This thread isn't about age of consent. Pedophilia is not an "age of consent" issue. Pedophilia is an issue of pathology, not politics.

Oh, and I'm anti-islam, not anti-muslim.

I'll remember that next time you forget that I'm anti-religion, not anti-Christian.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

This thread isn't about age of consent. Pedophilia is not an "age of consent" issue. Pedophilia is an issue of pathology, not politics.

Yes, it's an issue of pathology within our western culture.

However, as cultures mix it becomes a political issue. For example, there's no age of consent in Saudi, Pakistan and Oman so technically in those cultures there's no such thing as pedophilia. And it's certainly not a pathology in those cultures, since it's not socially abnormal.

This whole issue has been raised because someone of one religion claims it's his right to do such a thing. Therefore it's political - i.e. "what can I get away with as far as religious rights go?". Some dude states that it's his religious right to do such a thing, then doesn't the constitution stop the authorities from making his action illegal?

Welcome to the dark side of multi-culturalism.