[Landos Mustache]

I'm sorta on the fence about this one.

First, if you don't want to kill someone in a war don't join the army in the first place.

Although if they sign up with promises that they will not be in combat and later finding out different that is not right.

Anyway, Canada isn't taking sides on this one but letting the courts decide.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG43KC7771.DTL

[Sky Captain]

First of all they're not draft dodgers, they're deserters.
I have no sympathy for them. I hope they're sent back here for military trial.
I served my term. I went to war. I got sent to shithole countries. I could have been shot down.
I also recieved officer's training and flight training.
Then vocational rehabilitation(sent back to collage for a career change).

I didn't catch if they had actually been deployed overseas yet.

[PacHead]

The USA must demand that Canada hands them back or else that would amount to an act of war by Canada. When they are returned, they should be given fair trials (so no Liberals can whine) and if and when they are found guilty, they would be executed.

[Sky Captain]

They can only be sumerly executed of they desert while deployed and this action puts their
squad/platoon in danger. Like deserting during a fire fight or deserting and failing to render aid to an injured soilder.
Other than that, it's off to Levenworth.

[Moderator]

If someone comes to the conclusion that the cause they are being asked to kill for is an immoral lie...then god bless them for refusing to serve that cause.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

They can only be sumerly executed of they desert while deployed and this action puts their
squad/platoon in danger. Like deserting during a fire fight or deserting and failing to render aid to an injured soilder.
Other than that, it's off to Levenworth.

That's a shame, but at least I hope that they are comfy in Levenworth when they are brought to justice.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Moderator

If someone comes to the conclusion that the cause they are being asked to kill for is an immoral lie...then god bless them for refusing to serve that cause.

Too bad suicide bombers don't think that way.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Too bad suicide bombers don't think that way.

It is too bad...so what.

[Sky Captain]

Umm.
So they don't kill for an immoral lie?
Jeez.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Umm.
So they don't kill for an immoral lie?
Jeez.

Millions of people don't think that they do, including some on this forum.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Umm.
So they don't kill for an immoral lie?

Of course....so you are suggesting we ought to be willing to kill for immoral lies as well? Like...we should torture because they do..? WTF is your point. Mine is clear...if a person chooses not to kill for a cause that he believes to be immoral then God Bless Him.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Moderator

If someone comes to the conclusion that the cause they are being asked to kill for is an immoral lie...then god bless them for refusing to serve that cause.

There are many perfectly valid ways for a soldier to handle this situation. Running away is not one of them.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Moderator

.if a person chooses not to kill for a cause that he believes to be immoral then God Bless Him.

The military is not a democracy and soldiers are to do as they are told.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The USA must demand that Canada hands them back or else that would amount to an act of war by Canada. When they are returned, they should be given fair trials (so no Liberals can whine) and if and when they are found guilty, they would be executed.

The USA can demand to kiss my ass. If we select not to send them back, to bad. And bring on a war, if the US wants to turn into a 3rd world country go for it see how long you guys can live with out power/water/oil. New Orleans showed what Americans turn into after those things are removed.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Athens

The USA can demand to kiss my ass. If we select not to send them back, to bad. And bring on a war, if the US wants to turn into a 3rd world country go for it see how long you guys can live with out power/water/oil. New Orleans showed what Americans turn into after those things are removed.

It would take the USA about three and a half hours to totally annihilate Canada.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Athens

The USA can demand to kiss my ass. If we select not to send them back, to bad.

Fine, but don't expect to be taken seriously when you make complaints about unilateral military decisions. It's not exactly honest to claim to oppose such things, then turn around and start selectively supporting them.

[Athens]

oh no doubt, but you also couldnt stop Canadian Terrorists blowing up your power plants, your power gride, your water supply either. If we turned off all the juice your grid would over load, nock out the oil and gas lines from Alaska would cripple your oil production further. 20 million Canadians live with in 300km of the US border. Another million live within the US. BTW how many years have you guys been working on Iraq now?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Fine, but don't expect to be taken seriously when you make complaints about unilateral military decisions. It's not exactly honest to claim to oppose such things, then turn around and start selectively supporting them.

im not sure what your getting at?

[RobOnTheCape]

You can't join the military if you are going to question whether the US should or shouldn't be involved in a conflict. At least, as a former Marine that is what 1st came to me. But then again, say a German joins the military in the 1930s, loves serving his country, then Hitler comes to power. He sees the atrocities peak. Is he wrong to desert? Certaintly in the eyes of the Nazi government he would be, but should he follow his moral compass over his governments?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Athens

im not sure what your getting at?

Not turning over deserters, as others have mentioned, is an act of war: there is no way the Canadian government can do that without consulting their own military. If it's going to simply decide on its own to commit such an act, then what makes it different from other countries that make military decisions on their own?

Mind you: I don't think you're wrong. In fact, I think you're right. I'm just a little more consistent in this belief than you appear to be.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Moderator

If someone comes to the conclusion that the cause they are being asked to kill for is an immoral lie...then god bless them for refusing to serve that cause.

It is not a soldier's job to think about what they are ordered to do. They do what they are told. Or people die. Haven't you ever seen A Few Good Men?

Seriously, when you sign up for the military, you know what it is about. It's about killing people and breaking things. Do you get job training? Yes. Money for college? Yes. A salary? Yes.

Do you get to choose which orders to follow? No.

If you have a problem with the "immorality" of the order, there are procedures in place for that. Running to Canada is not one of them.

These people had no problem taking the training, salary, and money for college until they were asked to do their duty.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

These people had no problem taking the training, salary, and money for college until they were asked to do their duty.

Which doesn't just make them traitors, but it also makes them thieves, crooks, cowards and liars.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Although if they sign up with promises that they will not be in combat and later finding out different that is not right.

I don't know how anyone could sign up for the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines without knowing they could be in combat.

My sister-in-law has been in since ROTC, and she met her friend Carrie while at Fort Lewis learning to be a nurse anesthetist. The Army program is one of the best in the world.

Carrie had her student loans from her undergraduate school paid in full by the Army. She was given a post-graduate education that could run a half of a million dollars in the private sector.

My sister-in-law has told me that there are no false promises made, and even if they were, how could you not think the Army would be involved in war?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Athens

The USA can demand to kiss my ass. If we select not to send them back, to bad. And bring on a war, if the US wants to turn into a 3rd world country go for it see how long you guys can live with out power/water/oil. New Orleans showed what Americans turn into after those things are removed.

I love Canada, but you say that we won't be able to live without your power/water/oil. OK, fine, stop selling them to us. How's the Canadian economy survive? Both sides are getting something from that deal.

Besides, without a powerful neighbor to the south, how long do you think that the peace of living in Canada would last?

Deny it if you want, but the simple fact that you are our neighbor keeps you safer.

[ghporter]

This is not the same sort of thing we had in the 1960s and '70s. There is no draft. The U.S. military is all volunteer - you don't wind up in it if you don't do so yourself and on purpose.

And not a single recruiter anywhere will give anyone the impression that they won't be used "wherever the service needs them." If you're dumb enough to ignore the news about Iraq and Afghanistan and think "They won't send me anywhere dangerous," I want you to start an allotment to me, only 50% of your base pay, and I'll send you a genuine, suitable for framing, bill of sale for a beautiful bridge in New York City. In other words, NOBODY gets all the way into any branch of the U.S. military thinking they won't have a chance of seeing combat.

Oh, let's address Conscientious Objector status while we're at it. You have to show solid proof that your entire philosophical base has been converted to one wherein ANY killing is unacceptable to qualify. Considering the fact that you're asked several times during the induction process if you are a CO and (because some people are pretty dim) if the idea of killing in the line of duty bothers you, it's quite hard to get CO status after you're in. It's supposed to be.

So basically put, NOBODY IS IN THE U.S. MILITARY AGAINST HIS OR HER WILL AND WITHOUT KNOWING THAT HE OR SHE MAY BE IN HARM'S WAY. So leaving the country to avoid service is desertion, plain and simple. It's an abbrogation of a solemn oath, it's a violation of a legal contract, and it's unfair to all the other people who hold true to their oaths and have to go in your stead.

With all that said, I'd ask Canada to please send back these faithless wretches, so we can put them on trial for their legal violations. Since Congress has not declared that a "state of war" exists, it's unlikely (and unnecessary) that this form of desertion will qualify for the death penalty. Instead, I'd put those convicted to work on improving the rail infrastructure, teaching gang members how to be real people instead of the little dogs they behave like, and otherwise Doing Good®. Of course they should never be elligible for any government-sponsored assistance of any type since they put their asses ahead of their country's best interests.

In other words, there's no excuse, those who do this are not worthy of much respect from anyone, and they should be required to work hard to justify their continued existence. Otherwise, we should ignore them, as they have ignored their countrymen.

[Dakar]

If you enroll in the military of your own freewill, you gotta accept that there's gonna be stuff you're not going to want to do. If you were trying to play the system, hoping for a free college education and no wars, well looks like the system played you. Better luck next time.

Now with that said...

Originally Posted by PacHead

...or else that would amount to an act of war by Canada.

Man you look for an excuse to start a war.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The USA must demand that Canada hands them back or else that would amount to an act of war by Canada. When they are returned, they should be given fair trials (so no Liberals can whine) and if and when they are found guilty, they would be executed.

Killing people is your answer to everything, isn't it?

[hyteckit]

Just like any job that pays you, you are allow to quit if you think what the company is doing is immoral. If you break the contract, you'll just have to pay back for the cost of training.

[hyteckit]

New Army slogans:

If you join the army, we own you.

Be all we want you to be, join the army.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Not turning over deserters, as others have mentioned, is an act of war: there is no way the Canadian government can do that without consulting their own military. If it's going to simply decide on its own to commit such an act, then what makes it different from other countries that make military decisions on their own?

Mind you: I don't think you're wrong. In fact, I think you're right. I'm just a little more consistent in this belief than you appear to be.

Well personally I dont think we should keep them but it was jackass's wording that pissed me off, better or else. Dont take well to threats and ultimatums.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

It is not a soldier's job to think about what they are ordered to do. They do what they are told. Or people die. Haven't you ever seen A Few Good Men?

Seriously, when you sign up for the military, you know what it is about. It's about killing people and breaking things. Do you get job training? Yes. Money for college? Yes. A salary? Yes.

Do you get to choose which orders to follow? No.

If you have a problem with the "immorality" of the order, there are procedures in place for that. Running to Canada is not one of them.

These people had no problem taking the training, salary, and money for college until they were asked to do their duty.

Then how can soldiers get charged with war crimes if they are under orders? Think about it. There is a right and wrong and there are some things soldiers have a right to refuse if there is a signed member of the rules or war or what ever it was call.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I love Canada, but you say that we won't be able to live without your power/water/oil. OK, fine, stop selling them to us. How's the Canadian economy survive? Both sides are getting something from that deal.

Besides, without a powerful neighbor to the south, how long do you think that the peace of living in Canada would last?

Deny it if you want, but the simple fact that you are our neighbor keeps you safer.

If a war broke out between Canada and the US, yes Canada would be distoryed as a nation, but so would the US, which was the point I was trying to put out. And the United States does not protect us. We have no enemys and the only way a country could attack Canada would be by sea which is much easier to defend against then say your next door land neighbour. Russia and the UK are about the only other countries other then US that has the capability to invade a country as complicated and hard to get to as Canada.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ghporter

This is not the same sort of thing we had in the 1960s and '70s. There is no draft. The U.S. military is all volunteer - you don't wind up in it if you don't do so yourself and on purpose.

And not a single recruiter anywhere will give anyone the impression that they won't be used "wherever the service needs them." If you're dumb enough to ignore the news about Iraq and Afghanistan and think "They won't send me anywhere dangerous," I want you to start an allotment to me, only 50% of your base pay, and I'll send you a genuine, suitable for framing, bill of sale for a beautiful bridge in New York City. In other words, NOBODY gets all the way into any branch of the U.S. military thinking they won't have a chance of seeing combat.

Oh, let's address Conscientious Objector status while we're at it. You have to show solid proof that your entire philosophical base has been converted to one wherein ANY killing is unacceptable to qualify. Considering the fact that you're asked several times during the induction process if you are a CO and (because some people are pretty dim) if the idea of killing in the line of duty bothers you, it's quite hard to get CO status after you're in. It's supposed to be.

So basically put, NOBODY IS IN THE U.S. MILITARY AGAINST HIS OR HER WILL AND WITHOUT KNOWING THAT HE OR SHE MAY BE IN HARM'S WAY. So leaving the country to avoid service is desertion, plain and simple. It's an abbrogation of a solemn oath, it's a violation of a legal contract, and it's unfair to all the other people who hold true to their oaths and have to go in your stead.

With all that said, I'd ask Canada to please send back these faithless wretches, so we can put them on trial for their legal violations. Since Congress has not declared that a "state of war" exists, it's unlikely (and unnecessary) that this form of desertion will qualify for the death penalty. Instead, I'd put those convicted to work on improving the rail infrastructure, teaching gang members how to be real people instead of the little dogs they behave like, and otherwise Doing Good®. Of course they should never be elligible for any government-sponsored assistance of any type since they put their asses ahead of their country's best interests.

In other words, there's no excuse, those who do this are not worthy of much respect from anyone, and they should be required to work hard to justify their continued existence. Otherwise, we should ignore them, as they have ignored their countrymen.

With that said, I think there should be a option for defence only signup, as in no oversea assignments. I would join the Army if it ment no chance I would ever have to fight off of Canadian soil.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by PacHead

It would take the USA about three and a half hours to totally annihilate Canada.

Well, there needs to be a punishment for these soldiers that fits the offense. Fines, a short amount of jail time, just enough to deter others from doing the same. I agree we can't have soldiers running off but if they do--better to do it BEFORE combat, rather than get terrified in battle.

However, executing them? Annihilating Canada if they don't send them back? I swear you say these things not because you believe them, but simply to get people riled up.

Why don't we just pre-emptively destroy every other country on earth to make certain that no one ever disagrees with us? When thats done, let's annihilate all the blue states, following by those liberal major cities. You're nothing more than a hothead spewing illogical garbage.

[freakboy2]

wow we got us some real crazies around here. I love the "our soldiers are mindless robot" train of thought. That's great. While we're at it, we should just remove everyone's ability to stand up against the gov't. We all signed up for being in this society by being born into it didn't we? So we should just STFU and do what we're told.

nice logic.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by freakboy2

wow we got us some real crazies around here. I love the "our soldiers are mindless robot" train of thought. That's great. While we're at it, we should just remove everyone's ability to stand up against the gov't. We all signed up for being in this society by being born into it didn't we? So we should just STFU and do what we're told.

nice logic.

Well, it work for Hilter and his Nazi army. I think that's what PacHead suggest we should be like. All that's missing is the salute to Bush. Oh wait, PacHead is already doing it everyday.

[olePigeon]

Someone here in the military? I know in the Navy that the Marines are responsible for detaining (and if necessary, shooting) deserters. Does the Army use MPs for that?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Well, it work for Hilter and his Nazi army. I think that's what PacHead suggest we should be like. All that's missing is the salute to Bush. Oh wait, PacHead is already doing it everyday.

Liberals are closer to nazis than anybody else, since they often try to suppress opposing points of view and Liberal brownshirts pollute internet forums where their main argument consists of calling other people names and promoting lying propaganda.

The US army is not for losers just looking for a free education or a free ride. When people sign up for the army they take an oath and anybody who decides to break that oath deserves to be punished. Adults are responsible for their decisions, this aint Liberal lala land.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The Nazi army is not for losers just looking for a free food or free boarding. When people sign up for the Nazi army they take an oath and anybody who decides to break that oath deserves to be punished. Adults are responsible for their decisions, this aint Liberal lala land.

... they should be given fair trials (so no Liberals can whine) and if and when they are found guilty, they would be executed.

Corrected!

No people, I'm not saying the US Army is like the Nazi Army, so don't jump the gun.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Corrected!

Yes people, I'm saying that I like to change people's quotes and call people nazis, since I have nothing else of value to add to this discussion.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Sure PacHead. I'm not the one who said they deserve to be executed. Maybe fined or do some time. But you, execution is the only option.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Sure PacHead. I'm not the one who said they deserve to be executed. Maybe fined or do some time. But you, execution is the only option.

Military deserters should be executed, especially in war time. That's common sense.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Military deserters should be executed, especially in war time. That's common sense.

Uh... we are at war cause we are invading another country, not defending our country. Quite a difference. We can pull out from Iraq anytime. Same thing with Vietnam. We didn't have to be there.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Uh... we are at war cause we are invading another country, not defending our country.

That's merely your opinion. Terrorists are dying in Iraq and every dead terrorist is one less terrorist that can hurt the USA.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

That's merely your opinion. Terrorists are dying in Iraq and every dead terrorist is one less terrorist that can hurt the USA.

Um... yeah. We are always under war right? War on drugs, war on poverty, war on terror.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Um... yeah. We are always under war right? War on drugs, war on poverty, war on terror.

The war on drugs or poverty or any other silly thing is not that important. The war against radical islam is far more important than all of those others put together.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The war on drugs or poverty or any other silly thing is not that important. The war against radical islam is far more important than all of those others put together.

And when did this war on terror begin? When or how will it end? Did terrorism just started recently?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Not turning over deserters, as others have mentioned, is an act of war: there is no way the Canadian government can do that without consulting their own military.

I don't know what kind of gulag-nation you live in, but in Canada, the government doesn't need to consult the military to make decisions.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Besides, without a powerful neighbor to the south, how long do you think that the peace of living in Canada would last?

Deny it if you want, but the simple fact that you are our neighbor keeps you safer.

Rubbish. We don't need American protection. Never have. Who's gonna invade? The only nation that ever attempted was - the US.

Save that "protector of the world" crap for Liberia and Guam.

Originally Posted by ghporter

Oh, let's address Conscientious Objector status while we're at it. You have to show solid proof that your entire philosophical base has been converted to one wherein ANY killing is unacceptable to qualify. Considering the fact that you're asked several times during the induction process if you are a CO and (because some people are pretty dim) if the idea of killing in the line of duty bothers you, it's quite hard to get CO status after you're in. It's supposed to be.

I guess you didn't read the article, then?

But requests to obtain conscientious-objector status have steadily risen annually since 2000 to 110 in 2004. About half were approved that year.

"Half" sounds pretty easy to me.

[hyteckit]

Maybe those guys thought their mission was over and went to Canada for a vacation. Afterall, Pres. Bush, the commander in chief said "Mission Accomplish".

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Terrorists are dying in Iraq and every dead terrorist is one less terrorist that can hurt the USA.

That's really not true...you aren't taking into account all of the terrorists our presence is creating.

I promise you...its more then we are killing or capturing.