[Landos Mustache]

Interesting but not entirely surprising as the US is rather religious.

"In the U.S., only 14 percent of adults thought that evolution was "definitely true," while about a third firmly rejected the idea."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...evolution.html

[Sky Captain]

It's scary.
Rejecting the mechanics of nature.

[wallinbl]

Adults were asked to respond to the statement: "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals."

Stating it that way will evoke a different set of results than generically asking about evolution in general. It's somewhat misleading to use that statement, then report it as a response to evolution. The idea that a species evolves within itself over time is distinct from the idea that a species can evolve into a new species over time. It's possible for a person to accept the former, but not the latter.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Stating it that way will evoke a different set of results than generically asking about evolution in general. It's somewhat misleading to use that statement, then report it as a response to evolution. The idea that a species evolves within itself over time is distinct from the idea that a species can evolve into a new species over time. It's possible for a person to accept the former, but not the latter.

Whaaaa? The question seems pretty clear to me.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It's scary.
Rejecting the mechanics of nature.

More like rejecting our current best guess regarding the history of the human species. Science is always a moving target, changing its views constantly. At one time, you could have scoffed at people that didn't believe the Earth was the center of the universe.

I don't have a problem with evolution, despite my religious beliefs. If asked, I would generally answer that I do believe that humans have evolved from earlier species. However, I also frame that against how little we really know about physics, chemistry, biology, etc and would venture to say that we're likely in for a future shift in our thinking with regards to many things that we now believe about the world.

So, do I believe that humans evolved from other species? I'd say it's the best theory we have currently, but it won't surprise me in the least if it were to be turned on its head by some other discovery. I guess I'd have to give a qualified yes.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Whaaaa? The question seems pretty clear to me.

Is evolution the theory that one species evolves into other species over time?

Is evolution the theory that a species will experience changes in traits over time?

I'm saying it's possible for a person to accept the second definition, but not the first. Given the distinction between the two statements, I think it's a bit confusing for the study to ask the question they asked, then label the results with the single word 'Evolution'. Perhaps they should have labeled it 'Common Descent'.

[Sky Captain]

I think man and apes have a common ancestor.
But we split apart. Thus our similiarities and close DNA.

One would think that DNA replication would be perfect every time.
It's almost like binary information.
But pieces and interchange. Making new instructions. Sometimes it works for the better(change/evolution). Sometimes it dosen't.(Extinction)

[Shaddim]

There's no way that I'd say that evolution is "definitely true", though I do believe that it's probably true (>99% likely). In the case of humans, I wasn't there to watch mankind evolve through the ages, so I suppose that there will always be a little doubt.

IMO, that's the difference between believing and knowing.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Is evolution the theory that one species evolves into other species over time?

Is evolution the theory that a species will experience changes in traits over time?

I'm saying it's possible for a person to accept the second definition, but not the first. Given the distinction between the two statements, I think it's a bit confusing for the study to ask the question they asked, then label the results with the single word 'Evolution'. Perhaps they should have labeled it 'Common Descent'.

Evolution claims that traits change within species over time, and once those changes become large enough, we label it a new species.

[davesimondotcom]

I can't really believe the numbers in that poll. I know there are some who are creationists, but that many?

Damn.

Darwin for me, please.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Stating it that way will evoke a different set of results than generically asking about evolution in general. It's somewhat misleading to use that statement, then report it as a response to evolution. The idea that a species evolves within itself over time is distinct from the idea that a species can evolve into a new species over time. It's possible for a person to accept the former, but not the latter.

And if they do not accept the latter, it's fair to say they don't accept evolution. Those ideas (what creationists call "micro" vs. "macro" evolution) are distinct only among creationists.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Interesting but not entirely surprising as the US is rather religious.

"In the U.S., only 14 percent of adults thought that evolution was "definitely true," while about a third firmly rejected the idea."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...evolution.html

I saw this article a couple days ago, and what struck me is that they also tried to find factors associated with belief/disbelief in evolution. They found it was related to 1) religious literalism, 2) ignorance of science, and 3) a concerted political effort by groups in the US to challenge evolution. That last one was what interested me. Why are political groups in the US challenging evolution? There are a number of wealthy individuals funding the "Discovery Institute" and other similar groups to propagandize against evolution.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I saw this article a couple days ago, and what struck me is that they also tried to find factors associated with belief/disbelief in evolution. They found it was related to 1) religious literalism, 2) ignorance of science, and 3) a concerted political effort by groups in the US to challenge evolution. That last one was what interested me. Why are political groups in the US challenging evolution? There are a number of wealthy individuals funding the "Discovery Institute" and other similar groups to propagandize against evolution.

I don't get that either. How can you campaign against something that is pretty well established in the world of reality?

Oh well, there are crazy people everywhere. Sometimes it amazes me how different religion's extremists hate each other so much but have so much in common.

This is one place where I'll secure myself on the side of all you hippy tree-hugging lefty-types. And I like trees, too.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I saw this article a couple days ago, and what struck me is that they also tried to find factors associated with belief/disbelief in evolution. They found it was related to 1) religious literalism, 2) ignorance of science, and 3) a concerted political effort by groups in the US to challenge evolution. That last one was what interested me. Why are political groups in the US challenging evolution? There are a number of wealthy individuals funding the "Discovery Institute" and other similar groups to propagandize against evolution.

Look at how many schools in the US don't even want to teach children about evolution.

Remember according to recent polls Americans least trusted minority is Atheists.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Science doesn't address the property of anything being "definitely true." If that's indeed the way the poll was worded, it's not a poll about any scientific theory or conclusion, it's a meaningless piece about faith (one's faith in scientific conclusions maybe).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I saw this article a couple days ago, and what struck me is that they also tried to find factors associated with belief/disbelief in evolution. They found it was related to 1) religious literalism, 2) ignorance of science, and 3) a concerted political effort by groups in the US to challenge evolution. That last one was what interested me. Why are political groups in the US challenging evolution? There are a number of wealthy individuals funding the "Discovery Institute" and other similar groups to propagandize against evolution.

For reasons 1 and 2.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I can't really believe the numbers in that poll. I know there are some who are creationists, but that many?

Damn.

Darwin for me, please.

I know. I've been posting these polls for several years showing that a majority of people in the US reject evolution, and people always say they don't believe it. I know I've never talked to a creationist in person, and most people say they haven't either. So how can a majority of the country be creationists if no one's ever seen even one?

I suppose it's just a selection bias: The people who'd never talk about evolution with others are probably the creationists. They just haven't thought about it and don't talk about it with anyone, so maybe they're just genuinely unaware of the fact that it is uncontroversial.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Science doesn't address the property of anything being "definitely true." If that's indeed the way the poll was worded, it's not a poll about any scientific theory or conclusion, it's a meaningless piece about faith (one's faith in scientific conclusions maybe).

That's pretty nitpicky. There are plenty of other polls, worded in different ways, that show exactly the same thing. And all these countries had the same basic question, so the relative differences among the countries are valid.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Look at how many schools in the US don't even want to teach children about evolution.

Remember according to recent polls Americans least trusted minority is Atheists.

I don't think it's the schools that don't want to teach children evolution. It's certain (very) vocal parental groups. They end up running for school board and pretty much fsking up the entire system.

I heard about that poll too. I think it's one of those polls that can be misleading.

People don't distrust athiests because they believe in evolution. They distrust them because, as people of faith, they literally can't understand the position that there is no god.

Watch the episode of 30 Days that just aired, it should be on iTunes. It dealt with this very thing. You understand both sides a little more after, I think.

Many of my more religious friends/family, though, agree with me that there is nothing that says evolution and God have to be two separate camps.

I'm more of an agnostic who finds god in the beauty that surrounds me. I don't believe in a guy with a long beard playing a big game of the Sims.

[Chuckit]

Parents are the worst enemies of schools these days. And I don't just mean because they want to discourage science.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by BRussell

There are a number of wealthy individuals funding the "Discovery Institute" and other similar groups to propagandize against evolution.

Tax write-off.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I know. I've been posting these polls for several years showing that a majority of people in the US reject evolution, and people always say they don't believe it. I know I've never talked to a creationist in person, and most people say they haven't either. So how can a majority of the country be creationists if no one's ever seen even one?

Well, those people have never seen God yet they believe he exists. Guess we just have to have faith that creationists exist in the wild. LOL

Seriously, though, we live in the same, very conservative state. Heck, I grew up in your hometown (actually, I'm there now, typing at the Heights City Brew.) Yet I haven't ever known someone who is a total creationist.

And I know LOTS of born-again types.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Look at how many schools in the US don't even want to teach children about evolution.

Cobb County Georgia scools.
I'm so glad I don't live in that county anymore.
Not that 30 miles north is any better.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cobb/selman-v-cobb.html


http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpu...okdisclaimers/

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

People don't distrust athiests because they believe in evolution. They distrust them because, as people of faith, they literally can't understand the position that there is no god.

Right, which is exactly the same feeling they have when you tell them we evolved from monkeys.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by BRussell

That's pretty nitpicky. There are plenty of other polls, worded in different ways, that show exactly the same thing. And all these countries had the same basic question, so the relative differences among the countries are valid.

Translation issues aside, it could as easily mean that americans are better at not falling for trick questions, or that they are more aware of what science actually is and isn't. As for "plenty of other polls," just because they're worded differently doesn't mean they're worded correctly.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Right, which is exactly the same feeling they have when you tell them we evolved from monkeys.

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Support "No Monkey Left Behind" now!!

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Translation issues aside, it could as easily mean that americans are better at not falling for trick questions, or that they are more aware of what science actually is and isn't. As for "plenty of other polls," just because they're worded differently doesn't mean they're worded correctly.

There's nothing wrong with saying you believe evolution is definitely true. Is it wrong to say you believe it's definitely true that the earth revolves around the sun?

Do you really think Americans actually accept biological evolution, but were just interpreting this question differently than people in all those other countries? It sounds like you're in denial about the fact that Americans reject evolution, and are trying to find highly unlikely implausible explanations for these and many other very clear-cut findings.

[molala]

Because the monkeys left behind found one another so irresistable that they just kept breeding and producing progeny to keep their species alive. And they'll be at it for a long time.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Yet I haven't ever known someone who is a total creationist.

Been on these forums much?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by BRussell

There's nothing wrong with saying you believe evolution is definitely true. Is it wrong to say you believe it's definitely true that the earth revolves around the sun?

Do you really think Americans actually accept biological evolution, but were just interpreting this question differently than people in all those other countries? It sounds like you're in denial about the fact that Americans reject evolution, and are trying to find highly unlikely implausible explanations for these and many other very clear-cut findings.

There's also nothing wrong with saying this poll is unscientific and biased, and to decline to draw any conclusions from it for that reason. That's what I'm doing. Americans might all disagree with evolution for all I know, but this poll certainly does a terrible job of finding out. And furthermore, it's junk findings like the one in this article that contribute to people's mistrust of actual science like the theory of evolution itself. Maybe you're in denial that bad methods can do more harm than good, even if they do arrive at what turns out to be the correct outcome.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Support "No Monkey Left Behind" now!!

My sig used to be "If evolution is true, why are there still monkeys?" Larry King, Aug. 23, 2005.

[TETENAL]

[…]

[Monique]

To the creationist:

How do you explain the fact that 2 people have supposdly started the human race and now supposedly 6 thousands years later we are 6 billion people from very very different ethnicity.

How do you explain the Asian, African, Latino and European looks?

Who looks like more to Adam and Eve?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

There's also nothing wrong with saying this poll is unscientific and biased, and to decline to draw any conclusions from it for that reason. That's what I'm doing. Americans might all disagree with evolution for all I know, but this poll certainly does a terrible job of finding out. And furthermore, it's junk findings like the one in this article that contribute to people's mistrust of actual science like the theory of evolution itself. Maybe you're in denial that bad methods can do more harm than good, even if they do arrive at what turns out to be the correct outcome.

Yes there is something wrong with saying this poll is unscientific and biased. They gave people a statement about human evolution, and then asked people whether they believed it was definitely true, probably true, don't know, probably false, or definitely false. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it is in no way unscientific or biased.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Monique

To the creationist:

How do you explain the fact that 2 people have supposdly started the human race and now supposedly 6 thousands years later we are 6 billion people from very very different ethnicity.

How do you explain the Asian, African, Latino and European looks?

Who looks like more to Adam and Eve?

Ya not to mention the early years must have been all incest. Yucky.

[Chuckit]

Eh, some people find your bedroom hobbies to be yucky too, y'know. Let's not judge the Early Peoples.

[hyteckit]

US population:

About 9% Atheist.
Over 80% Christians.
Rest are other religions.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Eh, some people find your bedroom hobbies to be yucky too, y'know. Let's not judge the Early Peoples.

Ya nice try but note... gay sex does not result in deformed babies.

[Chuckit]

Yeah, but it doesn't result in royal families either.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Monique

To the creationist:

How do you explain the fact that 2 people have supposdly started the human race and now supposedly 6 thousands years later we are 6 billion people from very very different ethnicity.

How do you explain the Asian, African, Latino and European looks?

Who looks like more to Adam and Eve?

Hah, I actually remember the answer to that one from Sunday school. It's when King Nebuchadnezzar tried to build the Tower of Babel. Apparently in 650BC everyone was White. Then in an instant God made everyone different as a punishment so they couldn't finish the tower.

So somewhere around the 7th Century is when people stopped being White.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Hah, I actually remember the answer to that one from Sunday school. It's when King Nebuchadnezzar tried to build the Tower of Babel. Apparently in 650BC everyone was White. Then in an instant God made everyone different as a punishment so they couldn't finish the tower.

Your sunday "school" doesn't seem to be based on facts.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Hah, I actually remember the answer to that one from Sunday school. It's when King Nebuchadnezzar tried to build the Tower of Babel. Apparently in 650BC everyone was White. Then in an instant God made everyone different as a punishment so they couldn't finish the tower.

So somewhere around the 7th Century is when people stopped being White.

That is so funny.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Hah, I actually remember the answer to that one from Sunday school. It's when King Nebuchadnezzar tried to build the Tower of Babel. Apparently in 650BC everyone was White. Then in an instant God made everyone different as a punishment so they couldn't finish the tower.

So somewhere around the 7th Century is when people stopped being White.

Hah... yeah, that's sort of funny. That's how different languages is created too.

Babelfish (from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) also you to understand any language.

[hyteckit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

"According to the narrative in Genesis Chapter 11 of the Bible, the Tower of Babel was a tower built by a united humanity to reach the heavens. Because man had it in his heart to be like God, God stopped this project by confusing their languages so that each spoke a different language. As a result, they could no longer communicate with one another and the work was halted. The builders were then scattered to different parts of Earth. This story is used to explain the existence of many different languages and races."

Hehe... I can't believe God didn't struck down planes these days.

[evfish84]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Ya not to mention the early years must have been all incest. Yucky.

Everyone is inbred anyway. If you think about it, look at the number of ancestors you have in a given generation and how it doubles for every generation you go back.
1 generation = 2
2 generations = 4
3 generations = 8
etc.
Go back a hundred generations, and the number of ancestors you have at that time exceeds the number of people who lived on Earth at the time. Thus, in every person’s family tree there must be people who share more than one spot, so everyone is inbred in some way or another.

100 generations = 1.2676506 × 10^30

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Ya not to mention the early years must have been all incest. Yucky.

and after the flood...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by evfish84

Everyone is inbred anyway.

That depends on what you mean by "inbred." Most people don't consider the marriage of fourth cousins to be inbreeding.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

"According to the narrative in Genesis Chapter 11 of the Bible, the Tower of Babel was a tower built by a united humanity to reach the heavens. Because man had it in his heart to be like God, God stopped this project by confusing their languages so that each spoke a different language. As a result, they could no longer communicate with one another and the work was halted. The builders were then scattered to different parts of Earth. This story is used to explain the existence of many different languages and races."

Hehe... I can't believe God didn't struck down planes these days.

I did some non religious research about 650 BC, here are some facts:

Town of Abdera in Thrace is founded.

Climate change affects all the age of bronze cultures in Europe with colder and wetter climate, and tribes from the Scandinavian Nordic Bronze age cultures are pushed downward into the European continent.

The Bronze age is a period in a civilization development when the most advanced metalworking (at least in sytematic and widespread use) consisted of techniques for smelting copper and tin from naturally occuring outcropping of ore, and then alloying those metals in order to cast bronze. The Bronze age is part of a three-age system fro prehistoric societies. In that system it follows the neolithic in some areas of the world. In many sub-Saharan Africa, the neolithic is directly followed by the iron age.

Nothing about the tower of Babel there and nothing how many societies, Asian, European, African, North American, South American happened to be there at the same time. Nothing how they emigrated to other parts of the world.

As for 650 AD
Khazar conquers Great Bulgarian empire.
Arab complete the conquest of Persia
Hindu empire in Sumatra.
Islam state religion in Iran.
Building of St. Martin's church in Canterbury England.
1st surgical development in India with bladder, peristalsis, and plastic operations.
Candrakirti Indian, Madhyamaka philosopher (Madhyamaka is in the Buddhist religion).

Again nothing about the Babel tower, nothing is left of it anywhere; so how do you know it existed at all? No proof of Noah's ark either?

So the Bible which is for creationist a scientific manual, is not very accurate is it?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Your sunday "school" doesn't seem to be based on facts.

Probably why I'm not a Christian anymore.

[Sky Captain]

Being a true Christian is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Not explaining the mechanics of the universe through the Old Testament.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Being a true Christian is about following the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Not explaining the mechanics of the universe through the Old Testament.

But, people like you say that the Bible is the true representation of what happened to the world. But, it does not make sense does it?