[Cody Dawg]

I don't like her for a number of reasons, but besson3c feels compelled to defend Hillary in another thread, so I'm starting this one instead.

I don't like Hillary for many, many reasons.

They include her machinations and manipulations behind the scenes at the White House, her foul-mouthed tirades, her screw-ups regarding health care, her comments regarding "cookie baking stay-at-home-mothers," the way that she shoved herself into the administration, her anti-semitic remarks (many of them), the Whitewater fiascos, the way that she manipulates and refutes the truth, the Vince Foster cover-up, and her current policies. I could go on and on.

I guess I'm wondering, think she'd make a good president? Think she'll make the ticket? Think she'll get elected? Personally, I think she believes that she would make a better president than anyone else - including her husband - and I believe that the only reason she ran for senator is to make herself viable for the presidential ticket. I don't think that she'll run for president...but I do think she'll run on a ticket as vice-president thus opening the door later for president.

Have your say regarding Hillary.

[mojo2]

I don't want her as President, but I think she has the strength of character and the brains to be President. And, in a unique way, she is better prepared for the job in terms of experience than any other candidate. EVER!

She has as much experience in the Senate as any other Senator with the same number of years of experience.

She is an attorney.

She has been involved in national and international affairs for a longer amount of time than her Senatorial tenure. And that leads to her unique experience. She has had INTIMATE knowledge of the rigors and stresses of the job and more than a candidate who had ever served even in the next highest office in the land which gives the closest approximation of POTUS experience...as a V.P., she has been there as a CO-President...as the FIRST LADY. She's been there as situations have developed and intelligence has been presented and decisions have been made and defended. She's had the opportunity to learn from the successes and failures of Bill's Administration.

Assuming she is the Yang to Bill's Yin, the one HUGE problem I have with his presidency (the failure to stand up to terrorism early on) might be absent in her hypothetical administration. I think she might have the huevos to keep America strong and not just keep America HAPPY.

She isn't my choice but I have less objection to her than I did to Kerry or even to Bill. From what I know about her at this juncture.

[besson3c]

Cody Dawg: I remain pretty ambivalent about Hillary as a politician, my only qualm was with your signature.


I don't think that anything that Hillary has done should move her into a category of her own outside of "women", because I have very strong issues with the idea of being "lady-like".

In your other thread, you alluded to women pretending they are men. Why is being aggressive and/or assertive and/or strong minded a male-exclusive territory? There is nothing in our humanity which states that women have to be pretty, quiet, demure, and dainty - this is simply a role that they've been assigned to over the years, and I'm happy that this has been changing.

[Cody Dawg]

There is more to my signature than just Hillary being masculine.

A lot more.

And there is a HUGE difference between being assertive and productive and successful and feminine...those things can and do go hand-in-hand. There are women who truly believe that being masculine is the key to success in the business and political world. I'm not one of them. I am very athletic and can (usually) out-swim and out-rollerblade my competition, but I'm happy to be seen as 100% feminine.

I'm actually alleging that Hillary Clinton might not even be human.



Seriously, look at how much the public likes Laura Bush. Even the libs and Dems like her. Why is that?

[Kerrigan]

[Millennium]

Not particularly. Although her principles are very different from Bush's, I believe they would be about equally destructive to this country. The timing further exacerbates this problem: coming right off of Bush's presidency, she would be able to get more of her agenda pushed through than she otherwise might simply by virtue of not being Bush, and the damage would be much harder to repair in future presidencies.

[jckalen]

Personally, I think she's a little shrill. Also, it would do little to erase the divide that has been created between political parties... but I couldn't tell you who COULD do that currently either.

Although... plenty of people in New York actively campaigned against her, right down to plenty of bumper stickers reading "Hillary: Not Here, Not Now, Not EVER." But she still became a senator and I'd have to say she's done a decent job overall. But I still doubt I'd vote for her - that would be the year I give an independant a shot.

[Kerrigan]

Baby faced politicians rarely get elected to the presidency anyways.

[Cody Dawg]

Or maybe even nominated?

That might explain a lot. Interesting, Kerrigan.

[Cody Dawg]

Millenium

The timing further exacerbates this problem: coming right off of Bush's presidency, she would be able to get more of her agenda pushed through than she otherwise might simply by virtue of not being Bush, and the damage would be much harder to repair in future presidencies.

Wow, Millenium. What a very profound thing to say. I never thought about it that way - I guess that goes for any president who comes next.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

There is more to my signature than just Hillary being masculine.

A lot more.

And there is a HUGE difference between being assertive and productive and successful and feminine...those things can and do go hand-in-hand. There are women who truly believe that being masculine is the key to success in the business and political world. I'm not one of them. I am very athletic and can (usually) out-swim and out-rollerblade my competition, but I'm happy to be seen as 100% feminine.

I'm actually alleging that Hillary Clinton might not even be human.



Seriously, look at how much the public likes Laura Bush. Even the libs and Dems like her. Why is that?

They think that farting, burping, and drinkiing a lot of beer is the key to success? Seriously, what do men do in business that women should not do? Running a business is running a business, why should women run it differently then men?

I'm imagining that people like Laura Bush because she has been involved in some humanitarian causes, and is seen as being very docile.

We are still not at the point where being a steely eyed, calculating woman is as acceptable as it is for men. Aggressive women in these sorts of fields are often labeled as bitches.

If your thinking on Hillary is common, it's a shame that her chances to run for president are diminished simply because she is a woman. I would not vote for a demure man or woman at this point, yet her being aggressive and assertive seems to have earned her the label of bitch.

[Cody Dawg]

Like I said, your fixated on her gender.

I find a lot more wrong with her than just her gender.

Just about everything she is involved with has a negative outcome.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Or maybe even nominated?

That might explain a lot. Interesting, Kerrigan.

Here is an interesting article about how voters perceive baby-faced candidates:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...648456,00.html

I think that could hurt Hillary's chances (along with the other things that you've mentioned).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Like I said, your fixated on her gender.

I find a lot more wrong with her than just her gender.

Just about everything she is involved with has a negative outcome.

That's fine, but your signature deals with these sort of gender issues.

Why not make it "Hillary Clinton: incredibly sucky politician that sucks at everything she is involved in"

[mojo2]

[Cody Dawg]

mojo2: ^^^ ^^^

Secondly,

besson3c

That's fine, but your signature deals with these sort of gender issues.

Why not make it "Hillary Clinton: incredibly sucky politician that sucks at everything she is involved in"

Because it's my signature?



Why don't you make it your signature?

[mojo2]

Of course being popular is important to an elected official. But I think any one who makes decisions based on their popularity or a desire to be more popular or a fear of becoming less popular is kinda feminine.

I note that several MacNN posters commonly make reference to (for example) Bush's popularity rankings. I feel that how much someone is 'liked' is a weaker attribute than being respected.

Both is best. But striving for respect is strong. Striving to be liked is weak.

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, that is very true. Being respected is much better than being liked.

I tell my children that all of the time when I am dictating rules that they don't like. My response is, "I don't care if you like it...it's just the way it is and it's for your own good."



The other thing is that everyone who met Bill Clinton liked him. Can't say the same thing about Hillary. In fact, it was usually the opposite, unfortunately.

Let's look at other strong professional political women.

Condoleeza Rice. I think she's great. Most people like her. She's feminine and at the same time is strong.

Laura Bush. Again, she's great. Everyone likes her. She's feminine and likeable and knows how to lay low under the radar, though Bush has said many times that she is involved with his decisions.

And I can't think of anyone else right now...

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by besson3c

That's fine, but your signature deals with these sort of gender issues.

Why not make it "Hillary Clinton: incredibly sucky politician that sucks at everything she is involved in"

It's quite obvious she doesn't suck everything... never mind.

[Cody Dawg]

Well, that's why Bill went shopping for other chicks...

[Chuckit]

Hillary Clinton would not make a good president for the same reason she won't get a chance to prove me right — she's way too divisive. She has a core of people who think she's God in woman's form, and everybody else who either finds her off-putting or downright loathsome.

[davesimondotcom]

My take on Hillary is this: She's a power hungry, insincere, finger-waving-in-the-air-to-see-which-way-the-wind-blows politician. She is extremely divisive, shrill, pompous and elitist as well.

Did I mention I don't like her much?

She's the antithesis of what we need as our next President.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, that is very true. Being respected is much better than being liked.

I tell my children that all of the time when I am dictating rules that they don't like. My response is, "I don't care if you like it...it's just the way it is and it's for your own good."



The other thing is that everyone who met Bill Clinton liked him. Can't say the same thing about Hillary. In fact, it was usually the opposite, unfortunately.

Let's look at other strong professional political women.

Condoleeza Rice. I think she's great. Most people like her. She's feminine and at the same time is strong.

Laura Bush. Again, she's great. Everyone likes her. She's feminine and likeable and knows how to lay low under the radar, though Bush has said many times that she is involved with his decisions.

And I can't think of anyone else right now...

Bill, Condie, Laura...

None have the right stuff to be President. Or a good one.

Run the store however you want but don't lose the store. Bill set us on this road because he was hooked on being liked and he had an aversion to military action.

[Cody Dawg]

That's true.

The people who should run the country won't, unfortunately.



And does anyone know what happened to Cheney? He's disappeared.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's true.

The people who should run the country won't, unfortunately.



And does anyone know what happened to Cheney? He's disappeared.

Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, John McCain. They have the right stuff.

Big "Dick" doesn't need a higher profile at this time. Do you miss his smiling face or something?




http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/001883.html

[Chuckit]

McCain doesn't have a chance of becoming president. He could probably win a general election, but he'll never be nominated because he's popular with the wrong party.

[Buckaroo]

The Devil will never make a good President. She is the Devil.

[OreoCookie]

I think she is a talented politician.
Not in the sense where you agree with most of the things she says, but she is a person who likes power and manages to put herself in the picture at the right moment. She has contacts with the right people and experience with the Oval Office. I think she has positioned herself in the rather large overlap between Republicans and Democrats, i. e. she is electable by Republicans as well as Democrats. She also has an advantage because she is a woman (unless her opponent is also female, say Rice).

Plus, she has a former President as her personal trusted advisor

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Condoleeza Rice. I think she's great. Most people like her. She's feminine and at the same time is strong.

She's certainly smart and tough, but to be honest, I have no idea what she really stands for. She reminds of Powell in that respect who internally seemed to oppose quite a few policies or at least details, but has never really disagreed publically. In the way a good soldier would act.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Laura Bush. Again, she's great. Everyone likes her. She's feminine and likeable and knows how to lay low under the radar, though Bush has said many times that she is involved with his decisions.

Laura Bush is more like your nice mother-in-law, but not a politician. I don't think she is good material for a politician (which is not a bad thing to me).

Even if she wanted to position herself to become president, she would have to participate in politics after Bush 2's term. Hillary got elected to the Senate and has quickly risen through the ranks there. I don't see that happening with Laura Bush.

As I said before, I think Hillary Clinton is a `good politician'.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I think she is a talented politician.
Not in the sense where you agree with most of the things she says, but she is a person who likes power and manages to put herself in the picture at the right moment. She has contacts with the right people and experience with the Oval Office. I think she has positioned herself in the rather large overlap between Republicans and Democrats, i. e. she is electable by Republicans as well as Democrats. She also has an advantage because she is a woman (unless her opponent is also female, say Rice).

Plus, she has a former President as her personal trusted advisor

But she's not feminine!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

she is electable by Republicans

Erm…just to clarify, the "she" in this post was supposed to be Hillary, right?

[Kerrigan]

America is the first Western country in modern times to have a lesbian as a serious contender for head of state. Canadian heads are already exploding.

[BRussell]

I think it's interesting that Hillary is perceived as not being genuine. Why is that? Is she less genuine than, say, Bush, or Frist? From what I understand about her past, she came from a conservative family and was initially (i.e., before college*) a conservative Republican. I'm not suggesting she's a conservative, but the narrative seems to be that she's secretly a flaming extreme leftist who merely presents herself as a moderate. What's the basis for this belief?

Anyway, I personally would like someone with a name other than Clinton or Bush to be president at some point in my adult life. This is supposed to be a democracy, not a frickin ancestral monarchy.

*According to the wikipedia entry, she was president of the Wellesley College Republicans! She then became a Democrat sometime during college.

[Kerrigan]

Ya I agree BRussell. Clinton is really more of a conservative Democrat than wolf in sheeps clothing. For instance, she's stood by Iraq despite a lot of criticism from the far left.

And like you said, no more Bushes or Clintons please. No more political stagnation, let's bring along someone fresh like McCain.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I think it's interesting that Hillary is perceived as not being genuine. Why is that? Is she less genuine than, say, Bush, or Frist? From what I understand about her past, she came from a conservative family and was initially (i.e., before college*) a conservative Republican. I'm not suggesting she's a conservative, but the narrative seems to be that she's secretly a flaming extreme leftist who merely presents herself as a moderate. What's the basis for this belief?

Anyway, I personally would like someone with a name other than Clinton or Bush to be president at some point in my adult life. This is supposed to be a democracy, not a frickin ancestral monarchy.

*According to the wikipedia entry, she was president of the Wellesley College Republicans! She then became a Democrat sometime during college.

My guess is she became a Democrat right about the same time she met a guy with the initials WJC. See, the reason I don't think she is genuine is because she continues to readjust her positions with the direction of the political wind.

She met Bill, saw him as her path to politcal power, and it's looked their entire public life (to me), that she's the one who is pushing it. Bill always seemed to me a guy who was talented, charismatic and was being pushed further and further by his wife.

I don't have any facts to back that up, it's just observation and opinion. Like everything else on MacNN.

[davesimondotcom]

And I'm all for the lack of Presidents by the name of Clinton or Bush in the future.

Right now I'm still hoping for one with a funny Italian name who is a pro-choice Republican. Know anyone?

[Moderator]

I will be seriously disappointed if she ever became President...but...you want someone smarter than you running the country. This "Average American" bar is clearly a bit low. She is waaay smarter than Dubya...that's gotta be a plus.

She also likely shares fundamental beliefs with the guy who lead us through our most prosperous time ever...another plus.

It'd suck to see her get elected...but it'd still be a major major upgrade.

[Volanges]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Seriously, look at how much the public likes Laura Bush. Even the libs and Dems like her. Why is that?

Easy. Laura is a closet liberal ex-librarian with drunks for daughters. Laura also sneaks Kools from Secret Service personnel out of range of prying television cameras. I think she also dealt dime bags in college.

[Cody Dawg]

Yet we still like Laura, don't we?

She's human. Hillary doesn't seem to be - or want to be.

[Spliffdaddy]

Maybe the Bush twins should hang out with Gore's drunk son.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I will be seriously disappointed if she ever became President...but...you want someone smarter than you running the country. This "Average American" bar is clearly a bit low. She is waaay smarter than Dubya...that's gotta be a plus.

She also likely shares fundamental beliefs with the guy who lead us through our most prosperous time ever...another plus.

It'd suck to see her get elected...but it'd still be a major major upgrade.

I disagree that she'd be an upgrade. She'd be what the software industry calls a sidegrade.

We need another category of product next time.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Volanges

Easy. Laura is a closet liberal ex-librarian with drunks for daughters. Laura also sneaks Kools from Secret Service personnel out of range of prying television cameras. I think she also dealt dime bags in college.

...and she killed someone.

[Volanges]

Originally Posted by Moderator

...and she killed someone.

She likes abortion too. Damn baby killer. Plus you know she likes teh gays.

[Cody Dawg]

Why don't you explain the details? It's not like she shot someone in the head last week or anything.

The Associated Press
Thursday, March 2, 2000; 7:15 p.m. EST

PROVIDENCE, R.I. –– Laura Bush, wife of GOP presidential candidate George W. Bush, on Thursday recalled the pain of a 1963 accident that killed her boyfriend, saying "it was crushing."

"All I can say about that (is) it was a very, very, tragic accident I was involved in when I was 17 years old, almost 40-something years ago," Bush said. "It was a terrible accident. It was terrible for everyone involved."

Bush said the grief remains.

"I know this as an adult, and even more as a parent, it was crushing ... for the family involved and for me as well," she said.

Bush would not comment further and quickly resumed talking about her husband.

The accident occurred Nov. 5, 1963, when Bush was talking to a friend while she was driving to a party in her hometown of Midland, Texas, the New York Post reported.

At an intersection, she apparently failed to see her boyfriend, Mike Douglas, driving south. The vehicles collided and Douglas was thrown from his doorless Jeep, breaking his neck. He died instantly.

Midland officials would not release the full accident report, referring Freedom of Information requests for the document to the attorney general of Texas. He has until May 15 to decide if he will make the report public.

An abbreviated version of the report concluded neither Douglas or Bush could be blamed for the accident, the Post reported.

Volanges: Stand behind the crap you spout and give us proof in the form of a couple of good links that Laura Bush "likes" abortion, will you?

[Volanges]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yet we still like Laura, don't we?

She's human. Hillary doesn't seem to be - or want to be.

She seemed pretty human the time I talked to her in Bar Jamon about six months ago. So did Chelsea. At least their daughter isn't a mess... guess she's a good mother. How human of her!

[Kerrigan]

Bill Clinton is still the brains of the outfit, despite what people say.

[Volanges]

Whatever. I'd rather see Feingold run and win the Presidency.

[Moderator]

Word. Feingold.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Volanges

Whatever. I'd rather see Feingold run and win the Presidency.

Originally Posted by Moderator

Word. Feingold.

You'd be better off campaigning for a democrat named, "find clue!!"

[Cody Dawg]